Q&A New to Yoshi? (or not) Ask your questions here!

[Feral Cadence]

For some reason, I have a lot of trouble against really aggressive DK players. He breaks armor really early, has guaranteed grab combos, and he's deceptively quick. I just got back from a tourney (placed 5th, woo! (And apparently a bunch of western NY thinks Yoshi is broken now)), and I was taken out of both winners and losers by two different DK players.

Does anyone have advice? I'd upload videos, but apparently Melee is more popular, and Buffalo didn't feel like recording PM.

 

[Getsafe]

DK is a tough one. Treat him like a more dangerous Marth and play really fruity/defensive. Most of your openings will be off of whiffs, trading with DK won't be fun.

Take him somewhere with platforms and abuse your movement to force errors and then take your punishes to the bank. I don't really have a lot of experience with this matchup because I usually just go Zelda against DK

 

[Zylix]

This isn't necessarily a Yoshi specific question, but since I play exclusively Yoshi, I figured I'd ask you guys.

After observing my own play, and being told by multiple superior players I've met on netplay, it has become apparent that my biggest obstacle is the mental game. I've been told that i'm easy to read, predictable, and I don't really read my opponent much, and it shows heavily in my play.

I'm at a bit of a loss on how I can improve this aspect. It's a gigantic part of competitive smash in general, yet it's slippery to me. After playing with the same person for a while, say, 6 matches or so, I begin to pick up on their reactions to what I do, but good players can do that in 1 or 2 matches, while still keeping the opponent guessing as to what they'll do.

My question is how do I learn to develop that part of my game? Otherwise, how have you guys learned? Is it best to pay attention to just one thing at a time, such as how they tech when you run at them? Or do you just have to play the game and really try hard to pay attention to what they do, and remember what you see so 15 seconds later you can counter it?

Also, does it ever become easier, or are some people good at it and some people are bad at it by default?

 

[Scatz]

Can you get some videos? Explaining the mental game is absurdly long if we're starting from scratch.

 

[Feral Cadence]

I know a lot of people who have trouble approaching the mental game tend to play too aggressively. Without being able to see your play, I'd suggest making an effort to hang back, play defensively for a bit, and get in the habit of controlling your character while watching your opponent's instead of your own.

When people aren't completely comfortable with the tech skill they're trying to implement, they keep their eyes to themselves, which is a bad idea during any kind of active competition.

Get to know some good, quick options to throw out in neutral, and mix them up while you play. For example: dash attack is almost always a bad idea in neutral, while d-tilt is great if spaced properly. Dash dancing is great, especially if you're able to incorporate DJLing in order to confuse your opponent. I know I've seen Pug do that a lot, and it looks both super useful and swag as hell.

 

[Zylix]

Can you get some videos? Explaining the mental game is absurdly long if we're starting from scratch.

I could easily record some netplay matches and upload them within the next few days if anyone would be willing to analyze my mental game. Would it be better to upload them here since we're talking about it, or on the Vod's page?

I know a lot of people who have trouble approaching the mental game tend to play too aggressively. Without being able to see your play, I'd suggest making an effort to hang back, play defensively for a bit, and get in the habit of controlling your character while watching your opponent's instead of your own.

When people aren't completely comfortable with the tech skill they're trying to implement, they keep their eyes to themselves, which is a bad idea during any kind of active competition.

Get to know some good, quick options to throw out in neutral, and mix them up while you play. For example: dash attack is almost always a bad idea in neutral, while d-tilt is great if spaced properly. Dash dancing is great, especially if you're able to incorporate DJLing in order to confuse your opponent. I know I've seen Pug do that a lot, and it looks both super useful and swag as hell.

Thanks for the reply! Unfortunately, Yoshi does tend to have a bit of a weak approach game against good players.

I definitely fall victim to paying too much attention on my own tech. I imagine it helps if you don't have to give your inputs a second thought, but that just comes with time and practice.

I think I do fairly well at avoiding being overly aggressive and spacing my Dtilts and such, I'm just struggling because I can't seem to really think quickly enough to predict the enemy and stay unpredictable.

Yoshi's definitely got enough options that, if you know 100% what they're going to do, you should have an answer to everything, and I think my tech skill is adequate enough to execute what I want, but it's having that certainty about what they'll do that just goes over my head. Instead I end up getting read like a book and punished for it.

I know this is a raw aspect of anyone's play, and I'm never salty about losing to someone who's legitimately better than me, I just wish I had a concrete way to improve in that direction, cause it so abstract and hard to pinpoint.

 

[Feral Cadence]

Sounds like you've got a good mindset. Playing people in person helps, but it seems like you just need more experience.

 

[Scatz]

You can post here. It'll be easier to keep track of since the topic is mental game.

 

[Zylix]

Here are a couple matches I played today. Sorry for choppy moments, they were all netplay matches.

Zylix(Yoshi) vs HydratedMewtwo(Mewtwo)
We were pretty evenly matched, with me being a bit better I think.

Zylix(Yoshi) vs Grief(Olimar)
Zylix(Yoshi) vs Grief(Olimar, Falco, Fox)
This guy is quite a bit better than me, but I think there's a lot to learn against him

Thanks in advance for anyone willing to sit through the commentary-less gameplay and give me some pointers!

 

[Feral Cadence]

It seems to me like your biggest problem is matchup knowledge. Knowing which options are safe, and when, knowing the range of their moves, etc. I saw you go for a lot of approaches that were stuffed by your opponent just dash dancing back and punishing your endlag. Yoshi has one of the most creative offensive toolkits in the game, as well as one of the best defensive tools, but he can only commit to one at a time. If your opponent catches you overextending, you're in big trouble. DJC is intimidating, but if you approach with it the same way too much, it's easy to pick up on. I know I definitely have that habit.

Overall though, not bad. You seem pretty comfortable with Yoshi's moveset, outside of a couple of side-b flubs offstage.

 

[Zylix]

It seems to me like your biggest problem is matchup knowledge. Knowing which options are safe, and when, knowing the range of their moves, etc. I saw you go for a lot of approaches that were stuffed by your opponent just dash dancing back and punishing your endlag. Yoshi has one of the most creative offensive toolkits in the game, as well as one of the best defensive tools, but he can only commit to one at a time. If your opponent catches you overextending, you're in big trouble. DJC is intimidating, but if you approach with it the same way too much, it's easy to pick up on. I know I definitely have that habit.

Overall though, not bad. You seem pretty comfortable with Yoshi's moveset, outside of a couple of side-b flubs offstage.

Yeah, like I said, one of my biggest problems is being too predictable. I tend to go on auto pilot a bit and use the same moves/approaches/defensive options just because I've developed them as a habit or just muscle memory. Good players are able to predict and punish this, and I've had multiple people tell me that's a big reason why they just 3 stocked me lol.

One of my biggest concerns is that I can't seem to keep in mind all the options I have vs all the options they have. I know every character in PM has options for just about everything, especially Yoshi, but part of the reason my mental game is on the weak side is because I don't consider all the different options each of us has. It just seems like too much and my brain can't handle it all in real time combat.

If you notice in my match against Olimar on Wario Ware, he punished my aerial approach like, 5 times just by dash dancing back. It took me longer than it should have, but I did think to approach with a short hop then neutral B, which did work a couple times, but it seems like the good players can make those kind of adjustments after 1 or two punishes, and in multiple areas. I struggle with figuring it out in just one place at a time lol.

 

[Feral Cadence]

Does the trapped in shield glitch come into play when Yoshi is in shield stun at all? I keep rolling instead of jumping out of shield when someone hits me with a strong attack, and only when I'm playing as Yoshi.

 

[Scatz]

No. It's only when you hold the shield a few frames longer after a roll has been completed.

 

[Feral Cadence]

Weird. I dunno what my issue is, then.

 

[@aboy]

Yeah, like I said, one of my biggest problems is being too predictable.

Good players are able to predict and punish this.

If you notice in my match against Olimar on Wario Ware, he punished my aerial approach like, 5 times just by dash dancing back. It seems like the good players can make those kind of adjustments after 1 or two punishes, and in multiple areas.

When I play, and I see an opponent react to a move the same way twice in a row I try to exploit that until they adapt. I'm just starting to get competitive so I try to keep an eye on how other players learn. For instance, if Olimar is dash dancing every arial approach, maybe I'd try an empty jump and then go for a tether grab.

Re: autopilot, I try to mix up my approaches, and even just my whole style of play every stock I lose. I might go really campy for a while, then swap to lots of pressure with spaced fairs and jabs. Then maybe go dash-dance revolution and bait all over the map. Because I'm so new to the scene, I'll just try anything I can think of and see how to make it work.

In all, by combining the exploit mentality with an adaptable playstyle, I'm hoping to become a well rounded Yoshi. Yoshi has so many options I have no doubt he can adapt to whatever a matchup calls for so I don't focus on character vs character. I want to be able to beat the player, so I focus on him, what he does, and what he thinks. I hope that helps you.

 

[DankPancake]

Whats faster DJL OOS> usmash or JC > usmash?

Also, Id like to list yoshi's OOS options just to have them visually and for newcomers.

- Roll/Dodge
- Standing Grab
- SH, Full Hop
- Shield drop (platform)
- DJC > aerial
- DJL > smash
- JC > smash
- WaveDash

Is this complete?

 

[Scatz]

DJL > any grounded attack.

Outside of that revision, it's complete.

JC Usmash is faster than DJL Usmash

 

[Lardy]

Hi i'm new this smash boards thing and i wanted some advice on my yoshi

match 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGvjWjhaDac

match 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMfPe5ThXhs

i don't really know if im asking advice in the right way but im new to this whole forum thing, oh i know i have a huge problem with ledge game but its kinda of cuz of fear of sd'ing

 

[Festive]

Hi i'm new this smash boards thing and i wanted some advice on my yoshi

match 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGvjWjhaDac

match 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMfPe5ThXhs

i don't really know if im asking advice in the right way but im new to this whole forum thing, oh i know i have a huge problem with ledge game but its kinda of cuz of fear of sd'ing

Okay I can give a quick pointer right now from just watching the first match, you need to work on your L-Cancelling. I don't think I saw you lcancel a single time during both of the matches. You'll know when you're l-cancelling when you flash white like both of the falcon's do while doing aerial moves. If you're having trouble understanding the timing for L-Canceling you should watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARN-we6a0p4 It gives you the basics of SHFFLING which includes L-Canceling.
Another thing I notice you do a lot is roll when you feel pressured, which is a really bad habit and you need to get rid of it now before it sticks to you later on. Try wavedashing away or even jumping rather than just rolling. Also take advantage of Yoshi's rising aerials, to do this simply double jump and hold your jump button while doing an attack in mid air, you'll rise and this gives you some nice options. I'm sure some of the others on the board like Scatz know a lot more than myself, but do yourself a big favor and look through the threads (like this one) to find a lot of information on our cute dino

 

[Krumpberry]

Anyone have advice on how to get DJC nairs down? I keep doing rising nairs or when I do DJC them, it's kind of late and at that point it's basically a SH nair. I'd really prefer not to change my controls.

 

[AngryPiratehat]

Anyone have advice on how to get DJC nairs down? I keep doing rising nairs or when I do DJC them, it's kind of late and at that point it's basically a SH nair. I'd really prefer not to change my controls.

Some people will tell you to use tap to jump as your second jump, but for me I just developed quick thumbs and I just let go of the jump button really quick. I think I can double tab Y faster than I can double click a mouse actually.

The best practice I got was mastering DJC-Nair with Lucas first, though that may make you too fast and you might stick to the ground due to double-jump-landing. Do what works for you tho.

 

[Jazzasaur]

Hey everyone!

I'm rather curious about Yoshi, he's been on the back of my mind as a character that I wanted to explore, but I'm really not sure where to start with him. If anyone has any tips and things I could learn that would be really awesome!

Thanks! ^^

 

[AngryPiratehat]

Hey everyone!

I'm rather curious about Yoshi, he's been on the back of my mind as a character that I wanted to explore, but I'm really not sure where to start with him. If anyone has any tips and things I could learn that would be really awesome!

Thanks! ^^

Pivot graaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabs are god-like. And then DJC aerials. A good Yoshi is smooth and destructive. Any combo ending in down-smash should send an opponent off stage for an edge guard situation (something you want because Yoshi can be an amazing edge-guarding character with rising aerials that keep people from coming back).

 

[Jazzasaur]

Pivot graaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabs are god-like. And then DJC aerials. A good Yoshi is smooth and destructive. Any combo ending in down-smash should send an opponent off stage for an edge guard situation (something you want because Yoshi can be an amazing edge-guarding character with rising aerials that keep people from coming back).

Thanks so much, this is really appreciated!

I wasn't sure about using Yoshi's grabs until now, not quite sure why I didn't before. So thank you for that! I'll start working on pivot grabbing with Yoshi as a good start to learn him! ^^

Also was using mostly Up and Side smashes for KO'ing and edge guarding; with not much success, had no idea that the down smash was that useful!

 

[DankPancake]

yo, Luigi MU tips?
Currently Im facing the issues that he is hard to combo, has crazy priority, and fireballs stuff my approach.

 

[AngryPiratehat]

Thanks so much, this is really appreciated!

I wasn't sure about using Yoshi's grabs until now, not quite sure why I didn't before. So thank you for that! I'll start working on pivot grabbing with Yoshi as a good start to learn him! ^^

Also was using mostly Up and Side smashes for KO'ing and edge guarding; with not much success, had no idea that the down smash was that useful!

no problem. Yoshi's downsmash sends people off the side at the meanest angle too. If they DI down and miss the amsah tech then they're probably going to die :D

 

[AngryPiratehat]

yo, Luigi MU tips?
Currently Im facing the issues that he is hard to combo, has crazy priority, and fireballs stuff my approach.

You'll have to just poke him. It sucks. The best thing I've found so far for fighting Luigi is well spaced DJC-Nairs. Grabs suck on him, DJC-Upairs suck on him, if you can land a good Dair then obviously that's good, Bair is risky too and will more than likely pop him up into the air (kinda what he wants). So probably best to just poke him with DJC-Nairs and then try to finish him off quickly with a Downsmash. Not sure what else to tell you. His Fair seems to break armor rather early, but I can't remember right now. Just try to not get hit by Luigi's aerials.

 

[Zano]

Would anyone be so kind as to give me (or tell me of a post that already exists) advice on fighting falcon, dk, and peach? These are the MUs I need to worry about the most when I get to start going to my locals with the pm players there and I know almost literally nothing about what to do in pm and am just relying on stuff I knew from brawl, but that can't last me forever. As an example of what I can do so far, this is pretty much it lol. I was just bored when I made this

 

[DankPancake]

Just saying, be careful playing on the ledge with yoshi an opponent with a a strong aerial will break your DJ armor (EX: Luigi) and at that point your usually SOL.

 

[AngryPiratehat]

Would anyone be so kind as to give me (or tell me of a post that already exists) advice on fighting falcon, dk, and peach? These are the MUs I need to worry about the most when I get to start going to my locals with the pm players there and I know almost literally nothing about what to do in pm and am just relying on stuff I knew from brawl, but that can't last me forever. As an example of what I can do so far, this is pretty much it lol. I was just bored when I made this

Alright, so... it's great that you can ledge dash and you aren't afraid of doing the down-b right next to the ledge. One thing to note about this (other than trying to not get hit by strong moves while playing on the edge) is that Yoshi's landing box (or whatever it's called) changes when he's double jumping. Basically what this means is that you can do some really good wavelands that will send you super far and you could potentially move like amsa does in melee. To do this you'll have to get some good practicing in (I'd say that you should start with Yoshi's story for practice).

The basic process is that you try to wave-land while Yoshi is going through a platform or right about to come up over a ledge and hit the air-dodge while holding the stick perfectly horizontal.

There's a timing for it and you'll have to play around with it for a bit before you get a feel for it. Check out amsa's youtube channel for him demonstraiting this in melee.

This'll really open up your movement options and give you more control over the stage.

As far as these matchups go:

- DK: The only experience I've had fighting a DK was about 2 weeks ago. He loved crouch cancelling, so it was easy to grab him. You kind of want this because Yoshi has great punishes off of grab. You'll really want to utilize F-air considering how much hit-stun it does. Other than that, don't get greedy with DJC's since DK hits like a truck, and be very wary of his range (it's pretty big actually)

- Falcon: He's fast and he'll probably try to chain grab you. Always DI down and away to get away from the knee. Try to poke him for a bit with DJC Nairs and then go for grab punishes. Up throw at lower percents into an up-smash should connect and then you can try to get some DJC upairs. Also, don't underestimate how good the down-tilt is. With it's set knockback and the ability for it to reach out over the ledge it's pretty great. And if Falcon (or really any character) doesn't sweet spot then you can easily steal their double jump and get a cheesy kill with a down-tilt into a ledge grab.

- Peach: Many people say that this is Yoshi's worst matchup (at least in melee, I'm not actually sure what it is in PM). NEVER CHASE PEACH ONTO A PLATFORM. If you jump up into a down-smash it's going to do a TON of damage. You should rely on keeping pressure on her to prevent any turnips from being pulled. DJC-Nair into jabs and down-tilts should let you bully her around the stage but be VERY CAREFUL with DJC-Nairs since a hard hit could break your armor and send you flying. I'd say take her to small stages as much as possible. Your best friend for KOing peach is probably going to be D-smash. If you get a grab, you probably won't get any safe follow ups off of any of Yoshi's throws either so be wary of that.

Other than that, I guess just try to not get hit and do try to hit the other person as much as possible

 

[Scatz]

Vs Falcon, you have to refrain from being the first one to attack without forcing him into shield. It's very easy for Falcon to bait poorly spaced attacks and punish hard. As Piratehat said, DI down when he's trying to chain Uairs. DI-ing in will only get you combo'd into a free knee. Learn to SDI Falcon's Nair to force him to mixup the direction you need to SDI. After all of that, you gotta shield pressure the living delights out of him. His options OoS isn't fast outside of grab, and you can take full advantage of this so long as you keep Yoshi behind Falcon. Get the combo, and 0-death him.

Not much for me to say about Peach since I have limited exp as of late, but be careful when CCing her attacks. If you CC Dsmash, you WILL eat up to 30-60% easily.

 

[Feral Cadence]

I've got a bit of DK experience, though I'm still not great at the matchup. He's got incredibly easy conversions off his grab, but so do you. If he's being predictably aggressive, neutral B is your friend. DK struggles when you're below him. Only DJC when you know you won't get punished for it. Dair is a good gimping tool if he's trying to sweet spot his recovery, but make sure to aim for his head. Your Bair is good at shield poking, but don't rely on it too much, because it isn't safe on shield.

Overall, just be careful, and hit him from a distance when possible.

 

[Zano]

DJC feels weird, idk if I'm even doing this right lol. Is there a guide on it or can someone explain it to me?

 

[AngryPiratehat]

I've got a bit of DK experience, though I'm still not great at the matchup. He's got incredibly easy conversions off his grab, but so do you. If he's being predictably aggressive, neutral B is your friend. DK struggles when you're below him. Only DJC when you know you won't get punished for it. Dair is a good gimping tool if he's trying to sweet spot his recovery, but make sure to aim for his head. Your Bair is good at shield poking, but don't rely on it too much, because it isn't safe on shield.

Overall, just be careful, and hit him from a distance when possible.

Bair is also terrible at trading. Just thought I'd add that.

 

[Scatz]

Can you explain how it feels weird?

It just stands for Double Jump Cancel, and you can cancel your jump animation with an aerial or special while preserving your momentum.

 

[AngryPiratehat]

DJC feels weird, idk if I'm even doing this right lol. Is there a guide on it or can someone explain it to me?

There's not really a guide. The goal is to do a move as close to the ground as possible. I'll elaborate more on this later. I've got a class, but I'm just replying now to let you know I won't leave you hanging!

 

[DankPancake]

Just want to point out that the url for the yoshi boards is

http://smashboards.com/forums/yoshi.420/

its a conspiracy

 

[Zano]

Can you explain how it feels weird?

It just stands for Double Jump Cancel, and you can cancel your jump animation with an aerial or special while preserving your momentum.

Because I've never used a character that had to use it, so it feels completely different from doing aerials with other characters and throws me off, like I'm not used to cancelling my jump from doing that so I mess up cuz I don't know how to implement it properly and trying to play him like a normal character

 

[AngryPiratehat]

Because I've never used a character that had to use it, so it feels completely different from doing aerials with other characters and throws me off, like I'm not used to cancelling my jump from doing that so I mess up cuz I don't know how to implement it properly and trying to play him like a normal character

Yeah, if you've never played any character that uses DJC's then it is probably strange. It's more buttons to press for sure. Basically to have effective DJC's that are safe enough to be useful you want to be as close to the ground as possible for most of them. Nair is probably the fastest and safes DJC that Yoshi has. I personally just double-tap the Y button to DJC. You'll REALLY want to master fast-falling a DJC and hitting your L-cancels every time.

But DJC moves can actually be used far from the ground (this is EXTREMELY risky as Yoshi since you won't have the armor after throwing out the move!). But because Yoshi's double jump is unique, if implemented correctly it opens up a wide array of movement and approach options.

I know that as far as DOING the DJC's I prefer to not modify my controls and just use Y to jump unless I'm doing something technical. I know that many Lucas players use either X or Y to jump and then double jump with tap-to-jump so that they can flick the C-stick in the right direction to get the move they want, but I've found that doing this will cause you to Double-Jump-Land and you won't even get off of the ground in the first place (in case you didn't know, Yoshi's double jump will dip initially).

For good examples on how to utilize Yoshi's double jump, check out EyeHeartLoveTap in this video and watch him use Nair and change his aerial direction throughout the game to bait, continue combos, and just do all sorts of crazy stuff:

https://youtu.be/7M-PwLwoAe4?list=PL0E968O2H32aDLMAXgJBQmae38YDko_6v

It's a little rough in the beginning, but it's a great match to watch.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Well Boys. It was fun while it lasted. Thanks for everything