New Smash Bros for WiiU

[Kantrip]

Hey guys, I'm creating my blog now for our P.C.A.M. thing. What has been the norm so far on what needs to be included in these blogs? What have you guys included so far?

 

[Big-Cat]

Have you seen what the Project M people have done? Lucario has chains, Bowser is bigger and has hyper armor, Zelda is a zoning queen with her new and improved Din's Fire.

I've said it in one of the demonstration videos. There's a lot of potential in Smash's design that simply has not been tapped. I've wonder a few times if the ideas suggested are really needed when I see this stuff.

 

[OmegaXXII]

Does that mean Sakurai doesn't make mistakes? Of course not. But the day he decides to listen to fans over his own discernment is the day he loses credibility as a designer. Can fan s influence his discernment? Yes. But unless his discernment actually shifts toward what Fans want, he should never simply "obey the fans demands."

You the the nail on the head once again, fan demand is important but what a designer has to take in crediability is if a said character is capable of being playable or not.

I am not confirming anything but I have a suspicion that Ridley may have gotten this treatment in Brawl, even though he clearly is capable of being a playable character he decided not to include him in the roster thus making him an "SSE" boss, hopefully that won't be the case at all in Smash 4, his chances are much greater but again unlike Giygas or Andross, Ridley is definetly playable character material.

 

[Berserker.]

Have you seen what the Project M people have done? Lucario has chains, Bowser is bigger and has hyper armor, Zelda is a zoning queen with her new and improved Din's Fire.

I've said it in one of the demonstration videos. There's a lot of potential in Smash's design that simply has not been tapped. I've wonder a few times if the ideas suggested are really needed when I see this stuff.

I saw what P:M did. I liked the mod.

I liked playing as Zelda and I hope she turns out like that in SSB 4.

 

[Artsy Omni]

Actually, I knew this already along with Arcadenik. We were talking about it pages ago. He was talking about how identical the moves were. Then I told him that Falcon's falcon dive was similar to Kirby's fighter uppercut if you observe it well

Lol, exactly. Some characters are more based on Kirby than their own games.

Though to be fair, Kirby has a myriad of forms, each with several attacks that can be described as generic. For instance, one could asset that Ice Climbers' Side B is derived from Ice Kirby, but really, Kirby's moves are so generic based on his various forms that it's hard to avoid such a relationship.

But as always, Sakurai's work on kirby influences everything he does.

 

[Thino]

WELL

the advantage to that is , now the next smash will be influenced by both Kirby and Kid Icarus now

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Dedede is so based on kirby, he even inhales

 

[Berserker.]

@Psycho: Makes sense

Inhale + Food + Hammer Kirby/Or bonkers (Due to his fat size) = Dedede

 

[Artsy Omni]

WELL

the advantage to that is , now the next smash will be influenced by both Kirby and Kid Icarus now

True, but even Kid Icarus: Uprising is influenced by both Kirby and Smash, which is already influenced by Kirby in the first place.

@Psycho: Makes sense

Inhale + Food + Hammer Kirby/Or bonkers (Due to his fat size) = Dedede

Let's not get carried away... that's a stretch. =P

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

To be honest, I'd rather have old school kid icarus. I have both Kid Icarus games and they are relatively similar to metroid, except with levels.

 

[Berserker.]

What?

For me, it looked like Sin and Punishment with Icarus elements.

 

[Shorts]

Written on paper, I'm more than confident that some of the more in-depth posters on this board could make a game miles superior to Brawl in playstyle, compteitiveness, roster, modes, ect. But, that's just it, we can only make it on paper.

Seeing SSB take a more complex turn gameplay wise, is something I would love to see. Something more complex than Melee would be welcomed by a lot of people around here. That being said, Smash is fine at this basic level. I also don't think the series is going to sink to a casual level lower than Brawl thankfully.

It seems Sakurai is back on the competitive path, or at least recognizes Brawls mistakes.

Hey guys, I'm creating my blog now for our P.C.A.M. thing. What has been the norm so far on what needs to be included in these blogs? What have you guys included so far?

So far, a petition, and a character are all that is needed. I have a FB page, and a Twitter account.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I'm a platform person in a world of 3D shooters

 

[Artsy Omni]

Written on paper, I'm more than confident that some of the more in-depth posters on this board could make a game miles superior to Brawl in playstyle, compteitiveness, roster, modes, ect. But, that's just it, we can only make it on paper.

Seeing SSB take a more complex turn gameplay wise, is something I would love to see. Something more complex than Melee would be welcomed by a lot of people around here. That being said, Smash is fine at this basic level. I also don't think the series is going to sink to a casual level lower than Brawl thankfully.

It seems Sakurai is back on the competitive path, or at least recognizes Brawls mistakes.

Let's hope you're right. I just want Smash 4 to exceed its predecessor in all aspects, shedding anything that's unnecessary and expanding on everything that has true potential.

 

[Big-Cat]

Hey, Hex, one of my earlier posts reminded me of this and I wanna hear your input. These are some things I like in 2D Fighters that might be adaptable to Smash.

[COLLAPSE="Ideas and Crap"]

• Change in DI system to allow actual combos instead of allowing successful strings of reads only.
• Attacks can be chained together like Lucario in Project M.
• Reinvent the shield system. Change it to where the shield still breaks, but no longer shrinks over time (think Yoshi) and the shield only blocks certain attacks depending on the direction you block, allowing for high, low, and crossup attacks.
• Cancels into jumps and specials.
• Tech grabs so command grabs no longer feel redundant.
• Possibly a Super Meter to perform final smashes with an input of down-down B. (Very controversial).

[/COLLAPSE]

 

[Berserker.]

I'm sure Sakurai will focus on the gameplay or he and his team can focus on every aspect of SSB 4. Make it a little like P:M. It's not good though to make it like melee or brawl since we want something better than those 2 games. Make it something different and more overwhelming.

Here are my suggestions:
[collapse=Changelist]
Gameplay:

• Faster physics and pace
• Melee air dodge adapted
• Moon walking
• Dash dancing
• Remove tripping
• Still no wave dashing lol
• Balanced final smashes
• No more error coding (Looks at Ganondorf)
• Possibly promotes and emphasizes on both offense and defense

Mario

• Down B - Star spin
• Heavier weight (His weight wasn't 100, it was 98)
• Faster dash speed

Luigi

• Neutral B - Thunder ball
• Down B - Poltergust
• Heavier Weight (His weight should be 98)
• Change final smash: Hyper Polergust blow or Luigi Finale (It can have negative aura or lightning elements)?

Peach

• Neutral B - Can be changed to Toadsworth or maybe remain to be a generic toad
• Lighter weight (87 at most)

Bowser

• Faster and stronger attacks
• Faster dash speed
• Drastically higher aerial mobility
• Make him an offensive/rush down character

Link

• Higher recovery
• Increase range of aerial spin attack
• Better aerial mobility
• Quicker attacks
• Faster execution of projectiles
• Longer range
• Tad weaker knockback overall
• Make his n-air have the same attributes as his melee n-air

Zelda

• Din's Fire should be like the one in Project M
• Quicker Farore's wind
• Nayru's love is like how it is in Project : M
• Quicker dash speed
• Increase number of sweetspot frames in her d-air, f-air and b-air
• Throws are like how it is in Project M

Shiek

• Simply restore her melee self.

Ganondorf

• Revised sword based moveset

Donkey Kong

• Is actually fine as is.

Diddy Kong

• Weaken the meteor smash property of the D-air

Yoshi

• Better second jump
• Higher up B recovery
• Faster and stronger attacks
• Higher priority in all attacks
• Longer range

Samus

• Faster charge shot
• Charge shot is now rapid fire and it acts like how it acts in Metroid prime
• Chargeable. It damages from 4 - 14%
• Homing missiles travel extremely fast. Super missiles travel slowly though
• Homing missiles have poor tracking
• Morph ball bomb is chargeable (6-25%)
• Sense move as the new dodge animatino

Zero Suit Samus

• No change

Kirby

• Up-tilt is quicker and weaker
• Up tilt has longer range
• F-smash hitbox pops out at an ealier frame
• Higher knockback but same damage
• Quicker U-smash
• Faster inhale
• Aerial hammer works like how it works in melee

Meta Knight

• N-air can kill at only 160% with no DI
• D-smash can only kill at around 150% with no DI
• Decrease knockback and killing power in MK's shuttle loop
• Decrease the priority of mach tornado
• Weight should be as light as Kirby (78)
• Decrease the range of MK's attacks

King Dedede

• Forward B - Dedede hammer spin
• Down B - Waddle Dee throw

Fox

• Fine as is

Falco

• Fine as is

Wolf

• Recovery is easier to control

Pikachu

• Fine as is

Jigglypuff

• Increase priority of attacks
• Smash 64 restoration

Ice Climbers

• Fine as is

Marth

• Faster aerials
• Faster ground attacks
• In general, melee restoration

Ike

• Actually, Fine. Maybe make his attacks faster

Game and Watch

• Fine as is

Pit

• Fine as is

ROB

• Fine as is

Wario

• Revamped Wario land moveset

Snake

• Faster grenade execution
• Decrease KO potential

Sonic

• Homing attack is like how it is in Project M
• Forward B - Slide/Tackle
• Down B - Spin charge
• Higher KO potential
• Higher damage input and knockback

[/collapse]

 

[Big-Cat]

What if Toad's side B was changed to suck in the opponent like Yoshimitsu?

 

[Artsy Omni]

Hey, Hex, one of my earlier posts reminded me of this and I wanna hear your input. These are some things I like in 2D Fighters that might be adaptable to Smash.

[COLLAPSE="Ideas and Crap"]

• Change in DI system to allow actual combos instead of allowing successful strings of reads only.
• Attacks can be chained together like Lucario in Project M.
• Reinvent the shield system. Change it to where the shield still breaks, but no longer shrinks over time (think Yoshi) and the shield only blocks certain attacks depending on the direction you block, allowing for high, low, and crossup attacks.
• Cancels into jumps and specials.
• Possibly a Super Meter to perform final smashes with an input of down-down B. (Very controversial).

[/COLLAPSE]

I'll be honest. While I tend to do well in discussions about general concepts like game modes, story, design philosophy, etc., I'm not well versed enough in the technical aspects of Brawl or Melee's metagame to really offer much in the way of input.

I'd love to learn more about that stuff, but unfortunately, I don't really understand the jargon. =(

I'm sure at this point you're not nearly as impressed with me as you might have been before. =P

 

[OmegaXXII]

Kirby needs buffing like Melee, just sayin'.

 

[Berserker.]

Melee Kirby? NOOOOOOO.

I want 64 Kirby.

Toad's side b to be inhale? It would make sense in Sakurai's point of view

 

[Big-Cat]

I'll be honest. While I tend to do well in discussions about general concepts like game modes, story, design philosophy, etc., I'm not well versed enough in the technical aspects of Brawl or Melee's metagame to really offer much in the way of input.

I'd love to learn more about that stuff, but unfortunately, I don't really understand the jargon. =(

Don't be afraid to ask. I'm not a competitive Smash player, but I'll answer what I can.

 

[Shorts]

I like the ideas Kuma, but I've seen them all already

I'm just not a fan of Smashballs/final smash moves, so your meter doesn't interest me whatsoever.

I want 64 Kirby.

My best character out of all the Smash games. The "combos" you can do are insane.

 

[OmegaXXII]

Melee Kirby? NOOOOOOO.

I want 64 Kirby.

Toad's side b to be inhale?

My bad I meant to say 64!!

Toad has an inhale move?

 

[Artsy Omni]

Don't be afraid to ask. I'm not a competitive Smash player, but I'll answer what I can.

Well, for one, is there a resource online that describes Smash's metagame and its terminology in detail? To this day, I still don't know what "cancel" means. XP

 

[MechaWave]

I love Zelda in P:M. I have never had so much fun with her ever. Sadly Sheik is taking over me. I might main Sheilda in P:M but I'm waiting for demo 2.

Also Dedede needs new moves. Inhale was just a stupid idea for him.

And I'm still working on my Paper Mario moveset. I was just caught up in this livestream for a few hours and then fell asleep.

 

[Kantrip]

I'm sure there are various guides compiled (probably on this site, even) that explain different terms for each game, but I don't think they are compiled anywhere. "Cancel" actually refers to so many things it's ridiculous.

 

[OmegaXXII]

Hey Mecha, where's your pony avi at??
I'm looking forward to your version of the moves as well.

 

[Berserker.]

I like the ideas Kuma, but I've seen them all already

I'm just not a fan of Smashballs/final smash moves, so your meter doesn't interest me whatsoever.



My best character out of all the Smash games. The "combos" you can do are insane.

Mine too. I love how useful his u-tilt was.

My bad I meant to say 64!!

Toad has an inhale move?

In Sakurai's point of view

Well, for one, is there a resource online that describes Smash's metagame and its terminology in detail? To this day, I still don't know what "cancel" means. XP

If you are interested...

It means cancelling an animation to make things quicker.

 

[TL OWNS U]

Also Dedede needs new moves. Inhale was just a stupid idea for him.

I thought inhale was a good move if used right. Plus I think I remember Dedede usin inhale in Kirby 64

 

[MechaWave]

Hey Mecha, where's your pony avi at??

It was an animated image and the site won't let me upload that. I'm gonna get one though I've had this avatar since I first joined.

I thought inhale was a good move if used right. Plus I think I remember Dedede usin inhale in Kirby 64

He can Inhale (in the series) but it shouldn't be so dumb.

 

[Big-Cat]

I like the ideas Kuma, but I've seen them all already

I'm just not a fan of Smashballs/final smash moves, so your meter doesn't interest me whatsoever.

I know you've seen them, but Hex hasn't so I wanted his opinion.

It's surprising how much my ideas have changed over the years and have become more refined and streamlined.

Also, to explain the shield idea for the others.

• Stand blocking blocks aerials and all non-low hitting normals and specials.
• Crouch blocking blocks just about all ground attacks. The only exception would be attacks that hit high, aka overheads.
• Input for standing and crouch blocking is Shield+Back and Shield+Down-Back respectively.
• To block the other way to stop a crossup, do Shield+Forward.

 

[Artsy Omni]

Dedede's been able to inhale for a while now. It's totally canon.

 

[Berserker.]

Inhale is a fun move in general.

Swallowcide comes to mind.

 

[Big-Cat]

Well, for one, is there a resource online that describes Smash's metagame and its terminology in detail? To this day, I still don't know what "cancel" means. XP

Canceling refers to "canceling" out of the recovery moves and then immediately going into the next action. To cancel, you do the input of the next move just as the attack has landed. It's a little tough at first, but they call it dial-a-combo for a reason.

 

[OmegaXXII]

What does DDD's inhale actually do? Sorry I rarely play Brawl as him. =\

 

[Berserker.]

Same thing except you can't copy the ability.

 

[MechaWave]

What does DDD's inhale actually do? Sorry I rarely play Brawl as him. =\

Just has extended range of Kirby's Inhale and does more damage.

 

[soviet prince]

@on paper mario not being popular: well I said I wont reveal any stats until I got 100 submissions but paper mario is blowing out ever other mario rep as far as popularity

@ sakurai design: I think he design characters well he just does not do well in story mode, kirby story in his game are so easy it's almost unplayable and boring imo.

 

[OmegaXXII]

Damaging opponents, I assume.

@what is the deal with that wavedashing and l-cancelling? It seems a bit overrated IMO.

 

[Artsy Omni]

I know you've seen them, but Hex hasn't so I wanted his opinion.

It's surprising how much my ideas have changed over the years and have become more refined and streamlined.

Also, to explain the shield idea for the others.

• Stand blocking blocks aerials and all non-low hitting normals and specials.
• Crouch blocking blocks just about all ground attacks. The only exception would be attacks that hit high, aka overheads.
• Input for standing and crouch blocking is Shield+Back and Shield+Down-Back respectively.
• To block the other way to stop a crossup, do Shield+Forward.

But my concern with the idea is that it is geared toward a gameplay framework where attacks are classified in strict "high, mid, low" categories, and therefore, specific types of blocking is intuitive.

In smash, while to my understanding, the point at which an attack hits a player does influence how the player is struck, such black and white distinctions are not explicit enough to make differentiated blocking intuitive.

Of course, perhaps you intend for it to only really be relevant if you're playing at an advanced level.

It's just that when I think of concepts, I try not to neglect the average player in favor of the advanced player, so maybe my input is meaningless. Or maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about.