New Smash Bros for WiiU

[Artsy Omni]

Daisy is in Smash Bros as an alternate costume. That suits her quite well, given the nature of her origin as a Peach alternate.

Well given Luigi's origin as a Mario alternate, does that mean he ought to be a Mario alternate costume?

I think if Daisy were to be included (I doubt she will be, but I won't go into that), she has enough differentiation from Peach to warrant a unique moveset.

 

[Berserker.]

A moveset for Daisy? Composed of sports tools and flowery capabilities?

*ahem* Waluigi *ahem*

 

[Starphoenix]

Power Stone has the advantage of being a fighter that moves in a 3D plane. I think that probably helps a lot with the dynamic stages as the parts of the stage are forced to cycle like Smash's changing stages.

This all sounds pretty neat, but aside from Adventure Mode, can you use these combined items in a vs. match?

The whole items thing sounds like it'd be a fun idea, but from what I'm watching in the Power Stone videos, the emphasis of the game is on the use of the items, and Smash's emphasis has never been like that. Take away the items in Power Stone, it looks like you lose a lot. Take them away in Smash and you can enjoy the game just as much, if not more so. This isn't to say Power Stone is a bad game, but it's a different kind of game.

And for my heat with SmashChu, I've been arguing with this guy for years, and I've seen him argue with other people in other threads and forums. He's so close minded that he insists he's always right in every argument without as so much of a thought from the opposing side. The arguments with him turn out the same in every way, regardless of the topic. I've seen people responding negatively to him just showing up in a thread. Do you remember Chu arguing with Toise about third party characters?

Much of my Power Stone comparison was something that sounded good until I chewed on it some more... But I still think the item mixing needs to be explored further. At the time I was just tossing out ideas. My intention was for the successfuly mixed items to be unlocked after you created a new item. Again there are a lot of holes as it wasn't a concept I fully immersed myself into. It was kind of a long "writing out what is going on in my head" bit.

Yes I know about you and Chu's history, do remember I came from the old thread too? But it is kind of the running gag so I play along with it. Toise doesn't surprise me as he could get into an argument with anybody. Heck you must not remember when Chu and I got into it about third party characters?! But alas...

I think the likelihood of a character being included should never be based on how difficult it would be to create a moveset.

If you can pull a moveset out of your butt for Fox Mcloud, Ice Climbers, and ROB, then you can for any other character. The very fact that ROB of all "characters" got into Brawl over characters from other games that would have an easy moveset should speak volumes in that regard.

Character inclusion should be based solely on whether or not a character has made a sizeable contribution to their respective franchses' heritage ("sizeable" being in proportion to the scope of the franchise in question). I think every character in Brawl qualifies under that criteria.

This so freaking much! Dang it he reminds me more and more why I was and am so glad to see him here.

 

[Chris the Ripper]

Maybe Daisy would be a secret character like ZSS and you would have to hold shield on peach to use her.
Daisy would be perfect to represent mario sports games, including mario party.

 

[Deleted member]

Hey Barabsol, if you want to be able to produce content on PCAM, you can PM me your e-mail address, I can add it in for you, and you'll be able to produce content on that site. I'm intending on making that site a place where leaders of alliances can work together and produce content that we can agree on.

Extending the same offer to ChronoBound and CrimsonFeint/Young Horsetail if the latter two wants to make their alliance into an active push for their characters inclusion.

 

[OmegaXXII]

Omega, I've also given it some thought. And given everything, I have decided to continue with Begnion rather than move to another.

Well..that very nice to hear, I could always you a helping hand, I looked at the updated site, it looks very nice!!

Cool moveset as well.

 

[Berserker.]

Actually, the moveset criteria is kind of mixed up. Some movesets in SSB were made from scratch. Some weren't even that suited or faithful to the character.

 

[Artsy Omni]

Again, Daisy's moveset could be completely different. For one, her Standard A attacks would be far less feminine. And she's not famous for floating, her interaction with toad, etc. Her being a clone of Peach would be an injustice.

And it doesn't have to be sports-based either. It could simply revolve around her personality and her affinity for flowers.

Movesets shouldn't even be an issue at this point, given the fact that so many characters moves are completely out of nowhere. Rocket hammer for Dedede? Luigi Missile? What?

 

[Big-Cat]

You shouldn't place so much emphasis on a character's importance in their series. It's a good start, but it's not always a deciding factor. Take Tron Bonne in MvC3. She's not the main character of Megaman Legends, but rather the recurring Anti-Villain yet she's maintained such a strong popularity and posses a unique moveset. Volnutt has the popularity, but not so much in terms of unique move potential.

IMO, their potential to be a unique playstyle is probably one of the biggest deciding factors. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to show a whole lot as Wolf and Lucas, while playing differently from Fox and Ness respectively, had more room for potential that wasn't tapped. Wolf didn't have to Fox's special and final smash and neither did Lucas. Wolf's "feral" kind of fighting could've been expanded into his specials and Lucas has plenty of PSI available to him exclusively to give him specials. (Oops, I rambled on here.)

You have to remember that this is ultimately a game, not a Congress or popularity contest. If you were to consider that if the roster consisted entirely of original characters, a lack of diversity would probably be one of the bigger complaints.

 

[OmegaXXII]

Moveset don't matter, possibility is what really counts.

 

[BlueXenon]

lol, daisy's moveset will be very different from peach's. Daisy would have some attacks that were based off of nothing but a persons random ideaa, attacks using flowers, and a projectile using something from sports.

 

[Big-Cat]

Actually, the moveset criteria is kind of mixed up. Some movesets in SSB were made from scratch. Some weren't even that suited or faithful to the character.

Ness, specials wise, comes to mind. That being said, a lot of the characters had playstyles that fit them. Fox comes from a game full of aerial maneuvering, deflections, shooting lasers and moving in on the enemies. Save for the aerial maneuvering, Fox is a rushdown character in Smash.

@Starphoenix
I know it's a running gag, but be careful when you describe the "relationship".

 

[OmegaXXII]

It's would be nice in theory but you have to look at it realistically, her chances that is, are they high enough, is she demanded enough, relevant? Does Sakurai want/show interest? Competition?

You have to take all these factors into consideration before saying that Daisy or Rosalina actually have a chance.

 

[Artsy Omni]

You shouldn't place so much emphasis on a character's importance in their series. It's a good start, but it's not always a deciding factor. Take Tron Bonne in MvC3. She's not the main character of Megaman Legends, but rather the recurring Anti-Villain yet she's maintained such a strong popularity and posses a unique moveset. Volnutt has the popularity, but not so much in terms of unique move potential.

IMO, their potential to be a unique playstyle is probably one of the biggest deciding factors. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to show a whole lot as Wolf and Lucas, while playing differently from Fox and Ness respectively, had more room for potential that wasn't tapped. Wolf didn't have to Fox's special and final smash and neither did Lucas. Wolf's "feral" kind of fighting could've been expanded into his specials and Lucas has plenty of PSI available to him exclusively to give him specials. (Oops, I rambled on here.)

You have to remember that this is ultimately a game, not a Congress or popularity contest. If you were to consider that if the roster consisted entirely of original characters, a lack of diversity would probably be one of the bigger complaints.

I think any character has equal potential for a unique playstyle. It just takes a more open imagination. Sakurai's imagination is so open that he gives Rob a freakin' thruster fart attack, and the Ice Climbers the ability to breathe ice from the palms of their hands.

People put too much emphasis on whether a character could "translate easily from their respective games." Smash movesets are completely made up, as multiple people have stated. They don't have to originate from any game, and they don't even need to make any sense (see ROB).

Whether or not movesets SHOULD make more sense is irrelevant. Because they don't. Sakurai just pulls crap out of nowhere. And I think it's perfectly fine that way, and it should be embraced, as it gives every potential character equality.

That's why I think importance to the series is the #1 deciding factor. Because I believe that is what influences Sakurai the most. If he has to completely invent a moveset for a character that's undeniably extremely important to a series, he'll do it. No questions asked.

 

[Berserker.]

And that's why....

@Kuma: Yes. That is true. The moveset wasn't great but the playstyle was interesting and suited to the character. Jigglypuff's playstyle was extremely unique. Snake's playstyle was also one of the most interesting along with Diddy.

And that's where Daisy faces one fatal problem. Can anyone prove that Daisy is so important to the series?

 

[Artsy Omni]

And that's why....

@Kuma: Yes. That is true. The moveset wasn't great but the playstyle was interesting and suited to the character. Jigglypuff's playstyle was extremely unique. Snake's playstyle was also one of the most interesting along with Diddy.

And that's where Daisy faces one fatal problem. Can anyone prove that Daisy is so important to the series?

Exactly. That's why I don't think she'll be in SSB4. I personally don't think she's that important. Same with Rosalina.

 

[OmegaXXII]

That's why I think importance to the series is the #1 deciding factor. Because I believe that is what influences Sakurai the most. If he has to completely invent a moveset for a character that's undeniably extremely important to a series, he'll do it. No questions asked.

OMG!! I like this guy, THIS so much, exactly what I had in mind, well said.

 

[Berserker.]

I read your blog by the way, good read.

This guy's awesome. I agree

 

[OmegaXXII]

Did he create two blogs?

 

[Berserker.]

Yeah. Stage proposal and Story proposal.

I read both of them.

 

[Artsy Omni]

That's why I think importance to the series is the #1 deciding factor. Because I believe that is what influences Sakurai the most. If he has to completely invent a moveset for a character that's undeniably extremely important to a series, he'll do it. No questions asked.

Excuse me quoting myself, but I have something to add.

The only instance where I see a character's importance not being enough is if the very nature of the character inhibits a playable inclusion. Generally, this applies to gargantuan or non-object boss characters, like Andross, Giygas, etc. Even then, I can see Sakurai doing something totally dumb and trying to force such a character to be playable. Hopefully that doesn't happen. I don't have much faith in Sakurai as a designer. XP

Characters like that would make excellent bosses in Adventure Mode, though.

 

[JavaCroc]

OMG!! I like this guy, THIS so much, exactly what I had in mind, well said.

Although Hex was apparently just as good before now, I agree he's an awesome addition to the SSB4 discussion.

Going to sleep. Good night everyone.

 

[Berserker.]

Isn't that Timone as your icon Java?

I have faith in Sakurai and his team. Sakurai isn't a great developer (Despite the game getting good reviews from critics) but now he has a team that will help him. never mind. I believe this game will be great if Sakurai will hear out suggestions from the fanbase. Well, the logical suggestions I guess. Or the most requested ones. It depends. I don't know what he'll do.

 

[Artsy Omni]

Isn't that Timone as your icon Java?

I have faith in Sakurai and his team. Sakurai isn't a great developer (Despite the game getting good reviews from critics) but now he has a team that will help him.

I sincerely hope you're right. It just seems that everything Sakurai touches has production values that I see as below Nintendo standard... especially when it comes to details like UI design, level design, etc... things just seem a bit uninspired.

I really want SSB4 to be not just a great Smash game, but a premiere title in terms of presentation and production values. Something truly deserving of a 10.

 

[OmegaXXII]

Excuse me quoting myself, but I have something to add.

The only instance where I see a character's importance not being enough is if the very nature of the character inhibits a playable inclusion. Generally, this applies to gargantuan or non-object boss characters, like Andross, Giygas, etc. Even then, I can see Sakurai doing something totally dumb and trying to force such a character to be playable. Hopefully that doesn't happen. I don't have much faith in Sakurai as a designer. XP

Characters like that would make excellent bosses in Adventure Mode, though.

Exactly, character like Andross and Giygas are incapable of being playable by nature, but as you said if Sakurai somehow figures out a way, he wouldn't hesistate whatsoever.

Anyway, they're roles are much better suited for Adventure Mode rather than playable characters, and yea I agree, they should never become playable regardless of fan demand.

 

[Artsy Omni]

Exactly, character like Andross and Giygas are incapable of being playable by nature, but as you said if Sakurai somehow figures out a way, he wouldn't hesistate whatsoever.

Anyway, they're roles are much better suited for Adventure Mode rather than playable characters, and yea I agree, they should never become playable regardless of fan demand.

And that's one thing I do respect about Sakurai... he doesn't let Fan demand cloud his own discernment. If he feels something is a bad idea, he doesn't do it, even if 50% of a fanbase wants it. Granted, I don't think such an issue exists, as generally a fanbase and the designer's thinking is much more in sync than that, though never perfectly.

Does that mean Sakurai doesn't make mistakes? Of course not. But the day he decides to listen to fans over his own discernment is the day he loses credibility as a designer. Can fan s influence his discernment? Yes. But unless his discernment actually shifts toward what Fans want, he should never simply "obey the fans demands."

 

[Berserker.]

This conversation is reminding me of something right now.....

Spoiler

@Hex: How about Sonic?

 

[Artsy Omni]

@Hex: How about Sonic?

What do you mean?

 

[Berserker.]

He got in because of his fanbase

 

[OmegaXXII]

Phoenix Wright?

Where is that moveset you promised?

 

[Artsy Omni]

He got in because of his fanbase

He got in because of his fanbase AND because Sakurai felt his longstanding history with Nintendo (albeit in a rival role) warranted an inclusion.

It wasn't Sakurai acting in obedience to the fans. It was Sakurai listening to the fans, understanding their thinking behind their desires, and agreeing with them.

There's a difference between obeying fans and utilizing their input to help come to your own decision. If a designer simply did what the fans wanted without actually analyzing it for its merits and simply "taking the fans word for it," then the designer is no longer needed.

The designer's job is to filter fan input through his own discernment. Not to simply obey it.

I hope I'm making sense and that I'm not being overly redundant.

 

[Big-Cat]

Excuse me quoting myself, but I have something to add.

The only instance where I see a character's importance not being enough is if the very nature of the character inhibits a playable inclusion. Generally, this applies to gargantuan or non-object boss characters, like Andross, Giygas, etc. Even then, I can see Sakurai doing something totally dumb and trying to force such a character to be playable. Hopefully that doesn't happen. I don't have much faith in Sakurai as a designer. XP

Characters like that would make excellent bosses in Adventure Mode, though.

While you and I have different criteria for who would make a good character, we agree on this. A character just flat out impossible due to their nature shouldn't be made into a playable character.

With me, along with the above, I feel that if the character doesn't contribute much of anything to the diversity of playstyles available in the roster, it hurts them. Look at it this way, I've suggested that Krystal would be a mid range fighter with some zoning tools with her primary K.O. method being horizontal K.O.s. Bersker and I have created a moveset for Toad that makes him Smash's first mixup monster. If Sakurai could see the potential in these characters like we do, you're looking a diverse roster for both characters and playstyles.

Also, to respond to your statement that moves are madeup. I suggest watching those videos that go into depth about the movesets in Smash on Youtube. Look up History behind Super Smash Bros. Melee.

 

[Berserker.]

That's not what I meant Omega but I'll do that next week. I'm gonna be really busy tomorrow.

@Hex: Oh okay

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

How 'bout them Geno

 

[Artsy Omni]

Also, to respond to your statement that moves are madeup. I suggest watching those videos that go into depth about the movesets in Smash on Youtube. Look up History behind Super Smash Bros. Melee.

Oh, I've seen the videos. I'm aware that MANY of the characters' moves are actually derived from attacks or aspects of their respective games. I'm simply stating that several characters have moves that come out of nowhere, or are only very loosely derived from existing aspects, and in some cases, the majority of the moveset is entirely invented.

If it came off as me saying "Smash moves are all totally made up," then that was a miscommunication on my part. That isn't what I'm trying to say.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Also, a lot of moves are based off Kirby Superstar as well

 

[Big-Cat]

What isn't based off of Kirby Super Star?

Sakurai is so uncreative.

 

[Berserker.]

While you and I have different criteria for who would make a good character, we agree on this. A character just flat out impossible due to their nature shouldn't be made into a playable character.

With me, along with the above, I feel that if the character doesn't contribute much of anything to the diversity of playstyles available in the roster, it hurts them. Look at it this way, I've suggested that Krystal would be a mid range fighter with some zoning tools with her primary K.O. method being horizontal K.O.s. Bersker and I have created a moveset for Toad that makes him Smash's first mixup monster. If Sakurai could see the potential in these characters like we do, you're looking a diverse roster for both characters and playstyles.

Also, to respond to your statement that moves are madeup. I suggest watching those videos that go into depth about the movesets in Smash on Youtube. Look up History behind Super Smash Bros. Melee.

How about this. Both being important to the franchise plus having a potential unique moveset are the criteria? It makes sense if you put those 2 statements together about how fitting they are, how unique and how important.

And Hex, the Toad moveset if you want to see is here: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12843555&postcount=2

 

[Artsy Omni]

What isn't based off of Kirby Super Star?

Sakurai is so uncreative.

This. I'm convinced that if a few key members of this community got together, they could make a Smash Bros far superior to Brawl.

 

[Berserker.]

Actually, I knew this already along with Arcadenik. We were talking about it pages ago. He was talking about how identical the moves were. Then I told him that Falcon's falcon dive was similar to Kirby's fighter uppercut if you observe it well