New Smash Bros for WiiU

[Diddy Kong]

Red catches Mewtwo?! I wanna read that

He immediately gives it to Blaine though...

 

[ChronoBound]

I can dare to make a bad roster too. Doesn't mean it will be good or likely to happen.

And what do you mean the most "realistic" way? How would it mean "actual" new characters? When this sort of thing is done (Why hello there Soul Calibur V) the roster is usually upgraded with new characters who basically take the spot and general moveset of the old ones. That's what "realistically" happens. And there's nothing that says that's how Sakurai works, though I guess its true if you cut out a third of the roster you've got to add in new stuff, so yeah, let's cut out a good chunk of characters that people liked to play with, replace 'em with more obscure characters, and just let that be. At least with SC and Tekken, there's a story purpose there, but that's not how it works for Smash.

This.

Unlike other fighting games, most of the fighters in Smash Bros. are mostly based off of characters that are important or relevant to Nintendo's various franchises.

At this point, there are very few characters that are not yet playable that are comparable in importance and popularity to the characters that are in Brawl.

Smash 4 might have a new draw besides "boatload of newcomers" in order to compensate for the lack of starpower left in regards to possible newcomers. And no I am not talking about the series morphing into an orthodox fighting series with an emphasis on competitive play.

 

[Arcadenik]

Want 4 to be a reboot in the series, Arcade?

Make the GAMEPLAY different then. The roster could be completely rebooted but as a video game, it's still not really a reboot if the gameplay mostly remains the same

Lol, it isn't really that hard to figure out

Here's your ultra-conservative Smash 4 roster.

Make the gameplay different? Fine. Then accept KumaOso's gameplay ideas. Make Smash 4 play like Street Fighter games.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Here's your ultra-conservative Smash 4 roster.

Make the gameplay different? Fine. Then accept KumaOso's gameplay ideas. Make Smash 4 play like Street Fighter games.

...

This roster is just way too dull and safe-played IMO.

 

[Big-Cat]

Make the gameplay different? Fine. Then accept KumaOso's gameplay ideas. Make Smash 4 play like Street Fighter games.

As I've said, and no one seems to remember this, you'd have to do more than any of the ideas I've suggested to turn it into Street Fighter, the only fighting game you guys ever seem to mention yet the different ideas I've suggested come from King of Fighters, Tekken, Guilty Gear, BlazBlue, etc. and don't appear in Street Fighter.

Besides, I don't see you guys suggesting much of anything in mechanics beyond vague suggestions.

 

[ChronoBound]

I just thought of something.

With Kid Icarus Uprising, Sakurai was utilizing AR cards for it.

Iwata recently spoke of the Wii U having controller interface compatability with cards and figurines. Perhaps Smash 4 could have a collection of cards or figurines (modeled like trophies) for people to collect and somehow interact with the game. Imagine collecting cards and figurines of your favorite Nintendo characters, even characters that are not playable. Nintendo could make a ton of money off of this if its implemented in the right way.

 

[Diddy Kong]

...

This roster is just way too dull and safe-played IMO.

It is, but apparently this is what everyone wants...?

 

[Arcadenik]

...

This roster is just way too dull and safe-played IMO.

But that's what the fans want and we must give in to the fans' demands.

 

[Oasis_S]

I just thought of something.

With Kid Icarus Uprising, Sakurai was utilizing AR cards for it.

Iwata recently spoke of the Wii U having controller interface compatability with cards and figurines. Perhaps Smash 4 could have a collection of cards or figurines (modeled like trophies) for people to collect and somehow interact with the game. Imagine collecting cards and figurines of your favorite Nintendo characters, even characters that are not playable. Nintendo could make a ton of money off of this if its implemented in the right way.

Ding.

10's


You know what else? The way they're handling the Uprising cards could be TESTING GROUND for this kind of idea.


And I like how Diddy and Arcadenik get butthurt when people think their rosters are dumb, so they say everyone else has poor taste and wants boring characters.

 

[Big-Cat]

I just thought of something.

With Kid Icarus Uprising, Sakurai was utilizing AR cards for it.

Iwata recently spoke of the Wii U having controller interface compatability with cards and figurines. Perhaps Smash 4 could have a collection of cards or figurines (modeled like trophies) for people to collect and somehow interact with the game. Imagine collecting cards and figurines of your favorite Nintendo characters, even characters that are not playable. Nintendo could make a ton of money off of this if its implemented in the right way.

Reminds me of how I want a hologram motif for the next Smash based on the AR cards. Just picture it, the stage, characters, etc. all come in lights like the golden hammer.

Later, I might come up another compilation of gameplay ideas. One of which is a different input for wavedash.

 

[Aurane]

Someone said Street Fighter gamestyle should replace SSB gamestyle? My lord... these SF fans...

 

[Skyleaf]

This is my rebooted Smash 4 roster I mentioned earlier... now in one handy image!

Spoiler

Though at first glance I immediately thought "What. The hell?", I've come to kinda like this roster. Sure, I would prefer Krystal to be added to the SF reps, but I'm fine without her. I like Kid Icarus getting 3 reps, and keeping FE at 2 yet again. I'm in love with the slots you gave to Pokemon, because I absolutely despise Jigglypuff. Really, way to be bold on what you want/what you're predicting. It's better than seeing the same old "wanted" characters where everyone's roster varies in only a few characters.

The only thing I'm not liking is the Mii and Punch Out getting two reps. I would drop those two and add Captain Falcon and either Isaac or Saki. But other than that, I would be perfectly happy with some of those "wtf?" inclusions.

 

[ChronoBound]

Ding.

10's


You know what else? The way they're handling the Uprising cards could be TESTING GROUND for this kind of idea.

I think so too. If there is any game that has the potential to utilize this type of interaction, its Smash Bros. It would definitely compensate for the lack of noteworthy characters left to put in.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I ain't even mad.

Neither did I ever posted a roster of all my choices.

 

[Metal Overlord]

The fact that there's no Captain Falcon just seals the deal for that roster

 

[Aurane]

I should post a roster of what I WANT

 

[Oasis_S]

I think so too. If there is any game that has the potential to utilize this type of interaction, its Smash Bros. It would definitely compensate for the lack of noteworthy characters left to put in.

Could you imagine if it was FIGURES (trophies)? Walking down the toy isle and seeing a wall of Smash Bros. figures. Like any kid could resist.

Horsetail, I hope my last note made you faint and gave you a nightmare.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

AR & Trophy-idea: Maan, if that was ever possible... so potential-full indeed! Though buying new AR-cards/trophies would cost money and where to keep em in your house... also it would suck so bad if any of the cards or trophies would get lost...

But indeed, this would make the sole idea of Smash Bros so real.
Maan, me owning huge amounts of trophies that I can make fight each other. Maan.

 

[Metal Overlord]

That trophy idea is making me excited for Smash again

Especially since I'm a collector

 

[Arcadenik]

I think so too. If there is any game that has the potential to utilize this type of interaction, its Smash Bros. It would definitely compensate for the lack of noteworthy characters left to put in.

Sakurai: "Sorry I didn't add Little Mac, Saki, Isaac, etc. to the roster but here's some AR cards!"

Fans want to play as new characters themselves, not merely pit them against each other when they use AR cards. Great consolation prize, indeed.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Personally, I put gameplay above everything actually. Characters get me hyped the most, but really the gameplay is everything. I already got Diddy, so my biggest want is luckily already fulfiled, as he will always be my main.

 

[Arcadenik]

As I've said, and no one seems to remember this, you'd have to do more than any of the ideas I've suggested to turn it into Street Fighter, the only fighting game you guys ever seem to mention yet the different ideas I've suggested come from King of Fighters, Tekken, Guilty Gear, BlazBlue, etc. and don't appear in Street Fighter.

Besides, I don't see you guys suggesting much of anything in mechanics beyond vague suggestions.

I notice that people like Kuma suggest new gameplay ideas from other fighting games, but most fans disagree with it and say Smash shouldn't change its gameplay.

When people like myself suggest cutting old characters in favor of new characters, most fans violently disagree and say that if we want to reboot Smash, then change the gameplay instead - just as long as no character get cut.

Which is it? Keep the same roster from Brawl but change the gameplay? Or change the roster but keep the gameplay from Melee/Brawl?

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Arcadenik: Maybe not necessarily like that, they could be even new characters this way.

Oasis: *scribble scribble*

Gawwh!

 

[Big-Cat]

OK, so here's a new list of ideas. My objective was to try to stay within Smash's confines while adding new stuff to the table as well.

Change in Controls (Can be changed):
A: ATK 1
B: ATK 2
X: Jump
Y: Turn
L: Shield/Air Dodge
R: Block

[COLLAPSE="Throws"]
Gone: Pummeling
Reason: I never saw much value in it that wasn't the Ness/Lucas lock. Also, since the throws do less damage because of the pummels, it's probably just best to go back to just the throws. When to decide the direction is like Smash 64 but a little quicker.

New: Grab Breaks
Reason: Commonly known as tech grabs, this is the result of two characters try to grab each other at the same time (does not apply to special grabs which are random and port priority doesn't factor). When done, the two grabbers push each other away resetting the situation. This also gets rid of the notorious chain grabs.

New: Two grabs for tether users
Reason: Provide the tether users a quicker alternative. Do a neutral grab input like everyone else to get a normal grab. Do side+Grab for the tether input. Tether grabs cannot be grab breaked, but they can still be dodged.[/COLLAPSE]

[COLLAPSE="Movement"]
Gone: Random Tripping
Reason: Do I need to explain this?

New: Air Dash
Reason: To provide new aerial mobility. Only certain characters have this like Jigglypuff and some other multiple-jump users. Uses up one jump each time. To do it, do double tap forward or backward for the intended direction.

Returning: Wave Dash
Reason: Bring back the beloved wavedash in an easier form. To do this, you must do a quarter circle forward/backward motion. An additional property of the back NWD is that it is considered to be in the air while in use.

New: Turn-Around
Reason: Provide players the use of their BAirs while facing forward and brings back the old edgeguarding game without scrubbing it up. Can also be used to run away and be on the offensive at the same time. To do this, press the Y button. Works both on ground and in the air.

Returning: Momentum
Reason: Smash needs to obey some laws of physics as Melee and (presumably) 64 did. To, say, go in the opposite direction, you must hold back for a specific length of time. This is so Turn-Around doesn't case momentum loss if practiced enough.

Change: Ground Movement
Ground movement is now more like a traditional fighting game while still retaining its Smash essence. When walking, you can move forward and backwards without changing your face of direction. To run forward, double tap forward twice. To run backwards from a neutral position, tap backwards twice. When running, you can change direction like before. This is to keep running intuitive. This system now allows traditional command inputs as mirrored inputs are now possible.
[/COLLAPSE]

[COLLAPSE="Defense"]
New: Blocking
Reason: Provide another option for defense that doesn't risk breaking a shield. Works like Shield but defends the character entirely. Some aspects of blocking:

+ No guard break to stop it.
+ No recovery after using it.
- Take a small amount of damage for each hit endured.
- Cannot be used for Perfect Shielding so Shielding will have some benefits over Blocking.

New: Universal Counter
Reason: Provide some OOS/Out of Blocking options for each character. At the cost of some meter and pressing B while blocking as the hit lands, the blocker parries the attack and responds with some specific attack. Luigi could have his Tornado as an AC, for example.

Change: Hybrid Air Dodge
Reason: Compromise between the two air dodge versions. Neutral is limited to two dodges in the air while the other directions are limited to one and go into a helpless animation.

New: Aerial Ukemi
Reason: Brawl's air dodge basically allowed this at the expense of reducing hitstun. This seeks to fix this by making it where this done at the end of the hitstun. Do a shield input and and hold, left, right, or neutral to recover in that direction. Some vulnerability is on the ukemi so this is where aerial mixups come into play. The initial part of the aerial ukemi has invincibility though.

Gone: DI streamlined to just SDI
Reason: Smash 64 seems to work fine with just that. I could be dead wrong in that this would not work though.


Changed: SDI inputs.
SDI Inputs now just require one stick to specify a direction.
Reason: Why was it that we needed two sticks to give out one direction? That just makes things difficult for beginner players to get the hang of SDI.

To make things easier, there is a slightly longer freeze when attacks land than before. Logically, the length of the freeze would depend on the attack strength.

Change: SDI is only on specific attacks.
Reason: To encourage the player to decide between mixups and dealing certain damage. Also, to make mutli-hitting moves not so poor because they could be SDI on the first or second hit (i.e. Zelda's USmash). [/COLLAPSE]

[COLLAPSE="Attacks"]
New: IASA Frames on active frames
From the time an attack comes out until its recovery, the player can go from landing one attack to a jump, dash, air dash, special, normal, etc. depending on the move while on these frames. Where the IASA frames are depends on the attack, but most of your attacks will have their IASA frames specifically on the active frames.
Reason: Provides way more options for pressure, escaping, and keeping the flow of the match. Also increase the match's pace dramatically

New: Canned Combos
Reason: To encourage a stronger ground game. These combos work very similarly to Starfox Adventures' combat system, but further expanded on. You still have access to past attacks, but this opens up combo possibilities if explored enough to where you can juggle or link canned combos together. These chains may provide attacks and specials exclusive to a canned combo.

An example of a canned combo would be Link doing A > A > 6B which would be two swings and a swing on the head for a ground bounce.

There are also aerial canned combos, but is not necessarily a universal feature.

New: Universal Smash Combo
Reason: Provides a universal flowchart/tree for all characters. The flowchart, at its basic level is this: Jabx1-3 > A > B. This also gives beginners an easy to do combo with enough different ways to do it. In the air, the universal Smash Chain is NAir > Direction Aerial of Choice.

New: Counter Attacks
Reason: Higher risk, higher reward. Countering an attack leads to higher damage and longer hitstun or some property like crumbling for the first attack. Certain moves will have additional properties. PK Fire, for example, will have a burn effect lasting a few seconds if performed as a counter. Note, this mechanics does not apply for universal counters.

New: Smash Meter
Reason: Provide more options. Think of it working like MP in RPGs. The meter has many uses. It can be used for universal counters for 25% meter, super specials for 25%, super smashes (more on that later) for 50%, or final smashes for 100%.

New: Super Specials
Reason: Again, more options. By doing B+A+Input, you get a stronger version of special with new properties. Some of these might include invincible startup, ground bounce, projectile invulnerability, etc.

New: Super Smashes
Reason: Give us a more balanced super compared to Brawl's final smashes. These are your typical fighting game supers. They can be canceled on hit from specials or normals if the move you're comboing from allows it. The input for the Super Smash will depend on the character. Every Smash ball fills the meter by 50%

Change: Function of attack buttons.
Normals are no longer limited to the A button, and specials are no longer limited to the B button. This is changed now to where both A and B are attack buttons and specials are activated through through command inputs.

Reason: To provide more diversity in design. No one character has to abide by a particular mold. A character could have two specials, or as many as they need. Likewise, they can have as many normals as needed. This is not as overwhelming as you think. I suggest you look up command lists for Virtua Fighter characters as that game only uses three buttons and a joystick to play and it's widely considered the deepest fighter.

Change: Final Smash
Now they're more like fatalities minus the gore. Under certain condictions, you can end the match in a very flashy way with a cutscene and what not. Not the most practical mechanic, but a nice bit of fanservice. Final Smashes are doing with down,down,B+A.[/COLLAPSE]

The basic template of any Smash character will be like this. For shorthand, I'll be using the arcade notation.

789
456
123

A Normals:
2A, 3A, 5A, 6A, 8A - Correspond to DTilt, new move, Jabs, FTilt, Utilt
j.2A, j.5A, j.6A, j.8A- Correspond to DAir, NAir, and FAir, and UAir
Dash ATK 1 - Same as before.

B Normals:
2B, 3B, 5B, 6B, 8B - Correspond to DSmash, new move (universal tripper), new move, FSmash, USmash
j.2B, j.5B, j.6B, j.8B- Correspond to new moves except for j.5B which is BAir
Dash ATK 2

Grabs (Done with L+ATK):
All characters have a neutral grab and throws are like just before.

Examples of command inputs for veterans.

Mario:
Fireball: 236+A
Uppercut: 623+A
Tornado: 214+A
Cape: 236+B

Fox:
Laser: 236+B - B can be mashed for more lasers.
Illusion: 41236+A
Fire Fox: 22 or 88+B - Can still be controlled.
Reflector: 214+B

 

[Diddy Kong]

Kuma, you saw those videos of earlier from Donkey Kong??

I also wanna be able to turn around while jumping, changing directions. If my cat can do it (saw him doing it yesterday, as well as a wall jump XD) surely Smash characters should be able to do this?

 

[Big-Cat]

Not really. Though, what do you think of Donkey Kong going from run > roll > OHJC > FAir if the opponent is near the edge?

 

[Diddy Kong]

****ing awesome! Love those ideas in your post as well!

 

[Oasis_S]

Apparently keep the gameplay the same and add more characters never occurred to Arcadenik.

 

[Big-Cat]

But do you want the gameplay to be stagnating?

 

[Arcadenik]

Arcadenik: Maybe not necessarily like that, they could be even new characters this way.

I think so too. If there is any game that has the potential to utilize this type of interaction, its Smash Bros. It would definitely compensate for the lack of noteworthy characters left to put in.

Chrono said it... we apparently have a lack of noteworthy Nintendo characters left to add in Smash 4. I disagree with this assessment and we have plenty of noteworthy Nintendo characters to add in Smash. It is just that some people don't want any cuts in Smash 4... so that significantly reduces the number of available slots left for brand-new characters. Assuming we get 45 slots, how many new characters might get in? About 10-12 new characters if we don't cut anyone from Brawl. But fans want Dr. Mario, Mewtwo, and Roy back... so that would mean we get about 7-9 new characters. If some characters get cut to make room for more new characters in a 45-slot roster, we could potentially get about 19-21 new characters!

[COLLAPSE="Brawl 2.0"]

[/COLLAPSE][COLLAPSE="Smash 4"]

[/COLLAPSE]

 

[Big-Cat]

I like how Baraman is in the Smash 4 roster while Classic is in the conservative roster.

 

[Arcadenik]

Apparently keep the gameplay the same and add more characters never occurred to Arcadenik.

New characters = new gameplay (we play Smash 4 differently from Brawl because we get many new playstyles to choose from in addition to a bunch of old characters to tide over the fans of the previous game)

Old characters = old gameplay (we play Smash 4 the same like we did with Brawl but with a couple new characters to quell our desire for new playstyles)

That's how I see it.

 

[CHOMPY]

I do think that having the Mii as a playable character will want players to buy the game even more. Just imagine yourself fighting against all the other Nintendo characters!

 

[Oasis_S]

But do you want the gameplay to be stagnating?

Did you mean to word that in the way that you did.

 

[Big-Cat]

Yes. You can't just add more and more characters and call it a day. The gameplay has to keep changing or people aren't gonna want to play it after a while.

 

[---]

Dude, read it!

Yes...

Lol, trust me asage, I will as soon as I get into Outlaw Star for the first time

BTW, does Misty make any appearances in the manga?

Yes she does...

The pokemon manga is just AWSOME. (though it's not as good after the emerald saga)

Yes it is awesome. Although I personally liked the DP saga, it just depends on how far you get into it. I can't wait for the HG/SS saga, Arceus looks bad ***.


I am also contractually obligated to say SPOON!

 

[Arcadenik]

Yes. You can't just add more and more characters and call it a day. The gameplay has to keep changing or people aren't gonna want to play it after a while.

Didn't Sakurai say something similar to this? I remember reading somewhere that Sakurai isn't interested in just adding more and more characters and stages in each game.

 

[Oasis_S]

Yes. You can't just add more and more characters and call it a day. The gameplay has to keep changing or people aren't gonna want to play it after a while.

The gameplay has remained more or less the same for each game.

 

[Arcadenik]

The gameplay has remained more or less the same for each game.

Not really.... Melee added Side B moves and some other techniques like mid-air dodges and tether recoveries. Brawl improved tether recoveries (IMO) and added Final Smashes in addition to new techniques like swimming and footstool jumps. I am pretty sure Sakurai will keep adding new gameplay mechanics AND the new characters to use them (like how we got gliding but only Pit, Meta Knight, and Charizard could do them).

 

[Pieman0920]

New characters = new gameplay (we play Smash 4 differently from Brawl because we get many new playstyles to choose from in addition to a bunch of old characters to tide over the fans of the previous game)

Old characters = old gameplay (we play Smash 4 the same like we did with Brawl but with a couple new characters to quell our desire for new playstyles)

That's how I see it.

You say that, but what new playstyles are you suggesting? You can't just throw in a bunch of new characters and say "They'll be unique" or something like that. You've got to actually come up with what's unique. If you don't actually come up with something, cutting all those characters and replacing them with new ones is stupid, since they'll more likely than not just take the properties of those who are cut.