New Smash Bros for WiiU

[Big-Cat]

@Kuma: His predictions still apply IMO. If anything though, I'm sick of all of this silly Zelda talk that is going nowhere.

Apply to what exactly? His predictions have no more weight than mine or anyone else's.

And would you rather a Pokemon or Mario discussion?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

1. Four Swords
2. Minish Cap
3. Wind Waker
4. Spirit Tracks
5. Phantom Hourglass

I'm pretty sure 5 is more than 2. And this is just off the top of my head. Your points are all invalid.

Minish Cap is before the timeline of Toon Link, and doesn't represent the same style of toon Link

Four swords 1 takes place before it as well, and it still represents a different art style

Four Swords 2 takes place in the REALISTIC timeline, believe it or not, regardless of the art style.

I forgot about Phantom Hourglass, 3 games

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Apply to what exactly? His predictions have no more weight than mine or anyone else's.

And would you rather a Pokemon or Mario discussion?

Honestly, yes. At least nobody's bringing that up every 10 seconds.

 

[Pieman0920]

I don't think it's so much subjective as the realistic timeline is the only one where Link both succeeded in defeating Ganondorf and continued to be reincarnated.

The child timeline has little to do with the continuation of the triforce.

The realistic timeline has the reincarnation of Vaati and Ganondorf, while the toon - they ride trains.

If anything, even the timeline where Ganondorf defeats Link is more important, since it currently has the most games.

The toon timeline has a grand total of 2, so I don't see where you are getting toon Link being the most used. Link as a child is in more games, but not the incarnation known as "Toon Link"

Wind Waker Link aka Toon Link is the star of two games, Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass. In terms of actual Zelda games (and not cross bow trainings or Smashes or Soul Calibur 2s) the fact that he shows up twice means he's shown up more than any adult incarnation. (Though it technically ties with OoT's Young Link) The design for Toon Link though is reused in Minish Cap, Spirit Tracks, Four Swords, and Four Swords Adventure, totaling up to 6. The closest after that is ALttP Link, who's design sort of shows up about four times. (ALttP, LA, and the two Oracle games) Those all came around before WW, which seems to have solidified the Toon Link design as the one they go for when they have a non-adult Link.

As for the timelines, they don't really matter in Smash. The timeline where Adult Link wins in OoT is Wind Waker's timeline. Its actually only the timeline where Link fails where we don't get any version of Toon Link. (Though that's only after the split. Minish Cap happens before that)

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Why is smash representing an art style?

Plenty of other characters are show in various art styles

 

[Red(SP)]

Why is smash representing an art style?

Plenty of other characters are show in various art styles

We're aware of that, however some of those art styles would clash with one another and it would end up as an eyesore.

 

[Deleted member]

Psycho: You really don't know your Zelda, do you.

First off, Nintendo has acknowledged the Split Timeline. This dives into whether Link decides to warn about Ganondorf or not after the events of OoT, when he is sent back to his child years to live them out.

Part 1: Young Link warns Young Zelda about Ganondorf. Ganondorf is arrested and planned for execution. Execution fails. Twilight Princess happens.

Part 2: Young Link merely lives out his life. Ganondorf runs free. The Gods flood Hyrule to stop him. Wind Waker happens. Phantom Hourglass happens. Spirit Tracks happens (This Link is the decendant of the WW/PH Link).

2nd, as the others have stated, "Toon" Link refers to the STYLE of the Link. So Toon Link does not only refer to WW Link. The Toon STYLE has been in more games than any other style, as Pieman has listed.

And it's not the style itself that is being represened or even the timeline, it's the fact it's a YOUNGER TAKE ON LINK, which Sakurai finds important. The style and timeline only shows that Toon Link is the version of a younger Link to use.

 

[---]

Apply to what exactly? His predictions have no more weight than mine or anyone else's.

And would you rather a Pokemon or Mario discussion?

I guess some of it you can all my own thoughts.

But after a few games of people asking for the Zelda character that have appeared in recent games (Ex. Skull Kid, Minda, Vaati, Wolf Link) I honestly don't see anything different happening here.

As for Sheik, I honestly don't think she would even be in Smash in the first place if she wasn't also technically a Zelda variant.


As for your other question, I'd have to say Pokemon, I'd like to start talking about Pokeballs and such.

 

[Pieman0920]

Psycho: You really don't know your Zelda, do you.

First off, Nintendo has acknowledged the Split Timeline. This dives into whether Link decides to warn about Ganondorf or not after the events of OoT, when he is sent back to his child years to live them out.

Part 1: Young Link warns Young Zelda about Ganondorf. Ganondorf is arrested and planned for execution. Execution fails. Twilight Princess happens.

Part 2: Young Link merely lives out his life. Ganondorf runs free. The Gods flood Hyrule to stop him. Wind Waker happens. Phantom Hourglass happens. Spirit Tracks happens (This Link is the decendant of the WW/PH Link).

2nd, as the others have stated, "Toon" Link refers to the STYLE of the Link. So Toon Link does not only refer to WW Link. The Toon STYLE has been in more games than any other style, as Pieman has listed.

And it's not the style itself that is being represened or even the timeline, it's the fact it's a YOUNGER TAKE ON LINK, which Sakurai finds important. The style and timeline only shows that Toon Link is the version of a younger Link to use.

Part 2 is actually the timeline that Link leaves. At the end of OoT, Zelda sends him back to warn everyone about Ganondorf, but that timeline still continues on without a Link. Since there's no Link, when Ganondorf comes back things get screwed up and then there's a flood and then its Wind Waker time.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Psycho: You really don't know your Zelda, do you.

First off, Nintendo has acknowledged the Split Timeline. This dives into whether Link decides to warn about Ganondorf or not after the events of OoT, when he is sent back to his child years to live them out.

Part 1: Young Link warns Young Zelda about Ganondorf. Ganondorf is arrested and planned for execution. Execution fails. Twilight Princess happens.

Part 2: Young Link merely lives out his life. Ganondorf runs free. The Gods flood Hyrule to stop him. Wind Waker happens. Phantom Hourglass happens. Spirit Tracks happens (This Link is the decendant of the WW/PH Link).

2nd, as the others have stated, "Toon" Link refers to the STYLE of the Link. So Toon Link does not only refer to WW Link. The Toon STYLE has been in more games than any other style, as Pieman has listed.

And it's not the style itself that is being represened or even the timeline, it's the fact it's a YOUNGER TAKE ON LINK, which Sakurai finds important. The style and timeline only shows that Toon Link is the version of a younger Link to use.

YOU don't know anything about the timelines by that "Corrective" statement

1) Link dies by Ganondorf - This is the timeline the old school games take place in. Hyrule is desolated and Ganon has an army of darkness, before a new Link rises and defeats him (Link to the past)

2) Past Timeline - Link defeats ganondorf and is sent to the past by Zelda to live out his life. In this timeline, Link is continuously reincarnated with the triforce of courage. The Hero of time and his heirs

3) Future timeline - Link defeats ganondorf and is sent to the past by Zelda. This timeline, however, takes place in the world left without Ganondorf OR Link. Link is not reincarnated when Ganondorf breaks free from his prison and the goddesses take action by flooding the world to delay him until they find someone that can hold the triforce of courage. A new line of courage holders are reincarnated, having nothing to do with the hero of time

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Psycho: You really don't know your Zelda, do you.

First off, Nintendo has acknowledged the Split Timeline. This dives into whether Link decides to warn about Ganondorf or not after the events of OoT, when he is sent back to his child years to live them out.

Part 1: Young Link warns Young Zelda about Ganondorf. Ganondorf is arrested and planned for execution. Execution fails. Twilight Princess happens.

Part 2: Young Link merely lives out his life. Ganondorf runs free. The Gods flood Hyrule to stop him. Wind Waker happens. Phantom Hourglass happens. Spirit Tracks happens (This Link is the decendant of the WW/PH Link).

2nd, as the others have stated, "Toon" Link refers to the STYLE of the Link. So Toon Link does not only refer to WW Link. The Toon STYLE has been in more games than any other style, as Pieman has listed.

And it's not the style itself that is being represened or even the timeline, it's the fact it's a YOUNGER TAKE ON LINK, which Sakurai finds important. The style and timeline only shows that Toon Link is the version of a younger Link to use.

After hearing what the timelines ACTUALLY ARE(I knew there were split timelines, but I didn't know where they fell into place), I'm wondering... Where does Majora's Mask fall into all this?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

After hearing what the timelines ACTUALLY ARE(I knew there were split timelines, but I didn't know where they fell into place), I'm wondering... Where does Majora's Mask fall into all this?

He was wrong about the timelines.

Majora's Mask takes place in the timeline where link was sent to the past to live out his life as it should have been by Zelda.

It's sometime long before twilight princess

 

[Deleted member]

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

ACTUAL Timeline

 

[Oasis_S]

I just watched the Android Saga of DBZ, I don't want to hear about convoluted timelines.

 

[Deleted member]

A lot of that is unconfirmed.

What I posted was what Nintendo had confirmed prior to Spirit Tracks, which takes place after Phantom Hourglass.

The only thing since that was confirmed by them was that Skyward Sword was the first in the timeline.

TO THIS DAY, it is unconfirmed where the original two games stand.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Honestly, I don't(nor did I ever) give a flying f*** about Zelda's timeline. I just... don't care.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

A lot of that is unconfirmed.

What I posted was what Nintendo had confirmed prior to Spirit Tracks, which takes place after Phantom Hourglass.

What I posted is the OFFICIAL timeline released by Nintendo in the last month

I thought it would be more enlightening than releasing an old one

Edit: NO, Nintendo recently released the official timeline. You are outdated

 

[Diddy Kong]

And yet it talks about recent characters....

As for the propaganda, I've had to do many projects in my history classes over the years by coming up with my own, so I know it when I see it.

Ex. Most everyone here has admited to hating talking about Impa, but thanks to your constant arguments and reminders (a type of propaganda) people can't stop talking about it. Heck a few pages back it looked like people were finally taking Impa somewhat seriously.


As a side note though, I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Sheik getting in over Impa in Melee despite Impa still having had a role in mulitple Zelda games before that.

In Melee it was of coarse no question that Sheik was chosen over Impa.

In fact, that you have to bring such a thing up really makes me doubt wether the masses around here actually played Skyward Sword, or take me serious when talking about "Impa" who seems to be assumed is the exact same Impa from OoT.

It isn't as much as propaganda if I want to push more awareness about this character at all, and at the same time, people wondering which characters WILL get in cause they worry about 'slots'. Well, to me it seems slots for a new Zelda character are mostly dismissed, saying that the most important characters are already there, which was true if it where not for Sheik.

Now you can argue all you want about Sheik being 'part' of Zelda's moveset, but this is not the case. Zelda / Sheik is an enormous OoT throwback reference, and was added in because of OoT its success pre Melee. Nothing wrong with that, but it shouldn't really have happened in Brawl, and definitely not NOW.

We all know that Sheik on her own is a prefectly able character to play without having to even think of playing as Zelda and frankly, that same thing is happening 93% of the time. People rarely play as both, its more seen as a novelty if anything.

So I wonder why they should keep Sheik if she hold really NO significance to the Zelda series at all, while taking up a spot better used for someone else.

Believe it or not, Impa is a COMPROMISE for this. A way to satisfy both sides of this, by having both a new character while keeping most of the others play style. Or at least, similar enough to keep Sheik fans happy.

That being said, justify Mewtwos exclusion for me please. He's everything that Sheik was not. Yet got axed.

 

[Baskerville]

Why the hell are people talking about the Zelda Timeline when this is supposed to be about Smash?

 

[Pieman0920]

As for your other question, I'd have to say Pokemon, I'd like to start talking about Pokeballs and such.

50 Pokeballs. 10 Pokemon from each Gen. Go go go.

Gen 1: Snorlax (Obligatory), Goldeen (Still Obligatory), Scyther (Works like Scizor), Mew (The three constant Pokeball Pokemon are back), Zapdos, Nidoking (Horndrills forward) Moltres, Blastoise, Starmie, Mewtwo

Gen 2: Togei, Lugia, Ho-Oh, Suicune, Steelix (Works like how Onix used to), Hitmontop (Rapid Spin) Chikorita, Unown, Celebi, Wobbuffet

Gen 3: Mudkip (Splashes mud around), Jirachi, Groudon, Kyogre, Blaziken (Works like Hitmonlee..though I guess Scyther sort of does too?) Gardevoir (Now sticks with whoever threw it), Metagross, Latios/Latias, Deoxys, Castform (Changes the weather)

Gen 4: Piplup, Darkrai (Puts enemies to sleep and deals damage ala Lip Stick), Drifloom (grabs opponent and just flies off with them) Giratina (Shadow Force), Arceus (Judgment) Garchomp (Dragon Rush) Weavile, Bonsly, Cranidos (runs around using Headbutt) Rotom (Goes into item and makes it fly around and hit people)

Gen 5: Serpirior (Uses Overgrowth to make vines come out of the ground), Dewott (slashes around with his shell blades), Reshiram (Uses Blue Flare causing fire to surround near by opponents from all sides), Zekrom (Bolt Strike: Basically a supped up version of Pikachu's Thunderbolt, but with more power and a higher blast radius) Braivary (flies around and dive bombs) Sandile (digs underground and then pops up later on), Axew (flails around with its tusks) Stunfisk (Basically acts like a motion sensor bomb, but freezes the person who steps on it in place instead of exploding) Chandelure (Hangs up in the air and swings around, letting embers fly down to the ground). Vanillish (Spins around and freezes opponents)

 

[Deleted member]

It appears that I am outdated with the Timelines.
However, you still cannot deny that the Toon style is the most prominent style for the younger Link, which was the main argument in the first place.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

If we can continue this in a less aggressive way, I'll agree with that regardless of my opinion of his importance or necessity.

 

[Deleted member]

That being said, justify Mewtwos exclusion for me please. He's everything that Sheik was not. Yet got axed.

Again, Mewtwo was axed for time restraints. COMPLETELY different situation.

EDIT: @Psycho: If you think I was being agressive, you don't understand what agression is. This is how people debate in the real world.
Doesn't seem this will get anywhere...

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

In Melee it was of coarse no question that Sheik was chosen over Impa.

In fact, that you have to bring such a thing up really makes me doubt wether the masses around here actually played Skyward Sword, or take me serious when talking about "Impa" who seems to be assumed is the exact same Impa from OoT.

It isn't as much as propaganda if I want to push more awareness about this character at all, and at the same time, people wondering which characters WILL get in cause they worry about 'slots'. Well, to me it seems slots for a new Zelda character are mostly dismissed, saying that the most important characters are already there, which was true if it where not for Sheik.

Now you can argue all you want about Sheik being 'part' of Zelda's moveset, but this is not the case. Zelda / Sheik is an enormous OoT throwback reference, and was added in because of OoT its success pre Melee. Nothing wrong with that, but it shouldn't really have happened in Brawl, and definitely not NOW.

We all know that Sheik on her own is a prefectly able character to play without having to even think of playing as Zelda and frankly, that same thing is happening 93% of the time. People rarely play as both, its more seen as a novelty if anything.

So I wonder why they should keep Sheik if she hold really NO significance to the Zelda series at all, while taking up a spot better used for someone else.

Believe it or not, Impa is a COMPROMISE for this. A way to satisfy both sides of this, by having both a new character while keeping most of the others play style. Or at least, similar enough to keep Sheik fans happy.

That being said, justify Mewtwos exclusion for me please. He's everything that Sheik was not. Yet got axed.

You bring it up every 10 seconds. You brought it up during a Mario AND Pokemon debate, iirc.

Oh my god... ZELDA RELEVANCE DOESN'T MATTER. ONLY SMASH DOES. IF RELEVANCE WAS SO IMPORTANT, THEN FALCON AND NESS WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN IN BRAWL. NOR WOULD G&W, ICE CLIMBERS, OR SHEIK! Stop living in 1998, is that your excessive argument? OoT3D. That is all. Sheik has been in 2 Smash games already. And no, I haven't played Skyward Sword. Don't plan to. And I can ALREADY tell you, I'd rather see Sheik than Impa because Sheik is a character I've gotten used to in Smash. I don't want to see her replaced with someone who would, according to you, have the NEAR EXACT SAME MOVESET for some s*** reason like relevance.

 

[---]

@Diddy Kong: Well thank you for that, I'm starting to see your side of things, but I still stand by my opinion on Impa not getting in at least as a character.

@Pieman: That was fast. Now how about ATs? Go!

EDIT: I have some work to do. Later.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Again, Mewtwo was axed for time restraints. COMPLETELY different situation.

EDIT: @Psycho: If you think I was being agressive, you don't understand what agression is. This is how people debate in the real world.
Doesn't seem this will get anywhere...

Using Ad Hominem is a fallacy, and if they are debating like that IRL, they are doing it wrong

 

[Pieman0920]

In Melee it was of coarse no question that Sheik was chosen over Impa.

In fact, that you have to bring such a thing up really makes me doubt wether the masses around here actually played Skyward Sword, or take me serious when talking about "Impa" who seems to be assumed is the exact same Impa from OoT.

---'s argument is that if Impa really mattered, then she would have gotten into Melee, since Impa actually existed at the time. She existed since the first game in fact. And OoT's Impa was presumably suited for combat.

And Sheik is Zelda. Sheik's not a different character. She's friggen Zelda. Its a different persona, and a different moveset, but Sheik is still Zelda, and Zelda is one of the major characters of the Legend of (gasp) Zelda.

And it doesn't matter if its not fully relevant as it was in the past (even though we did just have that OoT remake that was highly publicized) because this is Smash. Peach has a move that references SMB2, aka her down special. She's not going to lose that move though just because its an old game and there are more alternatives.

The fact of the matter is that the Sheik persona was added to Melee Zelda because it made her unique. It was a gimmick that carried on to Brawl because no one shared it still. Whether the gimmick should be abandoned for character development like Kuma wants is debatable, but its probably not going to happen with Sakurai around who will probably just want to keep the character with the unique ability rather than separate them into two generic characters.

And again, Sheik is Zelda. Zelda has significance.

That being said, justify Mewtwos exclusion for me please. He's everything that Sheik was not. Yet got axed.

Mewtwo was most likely axed because the Pokemon roster would have been too big other wise and because he wasn't unique. Going from the programming, Jigglypuff was one of the last characters added in, and Mewtwo was one of the most complete out of the ones that were taken out. To this end, I personally believe that Mewtwo and Jiggs were fighting for the same spot. Jiggs eventually won though most likely to seniority. The problem with the slots arose though because Sakurai came up with the Pokemon Trainer idea which had a unique gimmick unlike Mewtwo and Jiggs, so that got top priority. Honestly, while I don't know if my theory is correct, if it does hold water, then its actually a good excuse why Sakurai wouldn't get rid of the Sheik transformation, since he prefers a unique character and seniority over other things. That being said, you seem to be focusing way too much on getting a character cut rather than just letting Sheik and Impa both be there at the same time, since we have stuff like Wolf and Falco running around.

Also I personally don't think its a good idea to do what you're saying, since it would make Zelda into a more "flavor of the month" type franchises like how Pokemon and Fire Emlem are perceived to be. If it was the case, Impa would only be in Smash 4 and in the next game she'd just be taken out Yeah Impa's not really in the same boat since she's a reoccurring character (at least to the extent that the Zelda series can have those) but she changes form constantly and could easily not be suitable to take up the role in the next game, thus causing a need for another replacement.

Also I'd wager a lot more people like Sheik than they do Impa.

 

[Diddy Kong]

It appears that I am outdated with the Timelines.
However, you still cannot deny that the Toon style is the most prominent style for the younger Link, which was the main argument in the first place.

By now yes, ever since the Wind Waker, the Toon Link version of Link as a younger kid is the most prominent style. But before OoT, Link was mostly aged between Adult and Young Link. Most still would chose the Young Link design to be the more correct one, but the one in OoT is especially really young I feel. But by now, I think both Adult and Young Link have had about equal as much show time.

Still, Spirit Tracks was the last true Toon Link game, and I think Nintendo is benching him now for a while. I don't know if we will see him in Smash 4, could easily go both ways for him.

Someone post please? Got some quotes to take care of. ^^

 

[Deleted member]

By now yes, ever since the Wind Waker, the Toon Link version of Link as a younger kid is the most prominent style. But before OoT, Link was mostly aged between Adult and Young Link. Most still would chose the Young Link design to be the more correct one, but the one in OoT is especially really young I feel. But by now, I think both Adult and Young Link have had about equal as much show time.

Still, Spirit Tracks was the last true Toon Link game, and I think Nintendo is benching him now for a while. I don't know if we will see him in Smash 4, could easily go both ways for him.

Sakurai =/= Nintendo.

He wants a younger Link. Toon Link still exists and is relevant with Spirit Tracks. There has not been a different from of a younger Link other than Young Link in OoT3D.

Toon Link will either stay or be re-replaced by Young Link, though Toon Link is more likely to stay than being replaced by the one he replaced.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Mewtwo was most likely axed because the Pokemon roster would have been too big other wise and because he wasn't unique. Going from the programming, Jigglypuff was one of the last characters added in, and Mewtwo was one of the most complete out of the ones that were taken out. To this end, I personally believe that Mewtwo and Jiggs were fighting for the same spot. Jiggs eventually won though most likely to seniority. The problem with the slots arose though because Sakurai came up with the Pokemon Trainer idea which had a unique gimmick unlike Mewtwo and Jiggs, so that got top priority. Honestly, while I don't know if my theory is correct, if it does hold water, then its actually a good excuse why Sakurai wouldn't get rid of the Sheik transformation, since he prefers a unique character and seniority over other things. That being said, you seem to be focusing way too much on getting a character cut rather than just letting Sheik and Impa both be there at the same time, since we have stuff like Wolf and Falco running around.

How was Mewtwo not unique? He came before Lucario, you do know that right? Mewtwo was removed due to time constraints, nothing more, nothing less. Had Sakurai had his way, we'd see Mewtwo mains in Brawl. Roy too.

 

[Pieman0920]

How was Mewtwo not unique? He came before Lucario, you do know that right? Mewtwo was removed due to time constraints, nothing more, nothing less. Had Sakurai had his way, we'd see Mewtwo mains in Brawl. Roy too.

No unique mechanics. He wasn't a clone by any means, (and quite frankly if you think Lucario is one of him, then you may as well say he was a clone of Samus) but he didn't really bring much new to the table like the Pokemon Trainer did.

And given enough time Sakurai could have added in everyone ever. He didn't have all the time in the world though and he chose to go with Jigglypuff and the Pokemon Trainer before Mewtwo though. Time constraints and deciding to focus on Character A instead of Character B are really the same thing at times.

 

[Deleted member]

I would like to point out that Trainer was Starter while Mewtwo was not.

Not that it matters.

EDIT: And no. You are heavily exaggerating.

Time would've made Mewtwo, Roy, and I beleive Dr, Mario part of the game.
Hell, Sonic not being in the game would've made the 3 in.

The three had data. (So did Dixie Kong, but she couldn't work as a tag-team for Diddy like he originally planned, and so did Toon Zelda/Sheik, but that one seems more of a "never mind" than a "cut for time".)

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

No unique mechanics. He wasn't a clone by any means, (and quite frankly if you think Lucario is one of him, then you may as well say he was a clone of Samus) but he didn't really bring much new to the table like the Pokemon Trainer did.

And given enough time Sakurai could have added in everyone ever. He didn't have all the time in the world though and he chose to go with Jigglypuff and the Pokemon Trainer before Mewtwo though. Time constraints and deciding to focus on Character A instead of Character B are really the same thing at times.

No unique mechanics? He was the only one who could daze or stop his opponent mid-movement in Melee with his Down B and Side B, respectively.

 

[Pieman0920]

EDIT: And no. You are heavily exaggerating.

Time would've made Mewtwo, Roy, and I beleive Dr, Mario part of the game.
Hell, Sonic not being in the game would've made the 3 in.

The three had data. (So did Dixie Kong, but she couldn't work as a tag-team for Diddy like he originally planned, and so did Toon Zelda/Sheik, but that one seems more of a "never mind" than a "cut for time".)

We don't have any word on why Mewtwo , Roy, or Dr. Mario were not in. All we know is the circumstances behind Dixie. That's it.

And how is it an exaggeration? Assuming it is is time related issues that got them cut, those three characters could have been worked on, but other characters were chosen instead. Time is a factor in terms of how many characters in total there are, but priority as to which actually get made had to be under consideration. If Sakurai had more priority focused on Mewtwo, then Mewtwo would have gotten in, and some other character would have been cut for time. But that simply wasn't the case.

No unique mechanics? He was the only one who could daze or stop his opponent mid-movement in Melee with his Down B and Side B, respectively.

The daze's effect is essentially the same as Jigg's sing, though I'll admit that the attack was very different. Confusion was just nonsense, and didn't really add anything. In fact the down special wasn't much of anything either. How many times did you find yourself actually using those?

 

[Oasis_S]

Holding items with his mind was pretty unique. :3

 

[Red(SP)]

No unique mechanics? He was the only one who could daze or stop his opponent mid-movement in Melee with his Down B and Side B, respectively.

Indeed, they were very decent mechanics. Although, they could have impulsed a more "helpless" effect considering they were pretty weird at low %s. It would of curved more towards his light-weight.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Holding items with his mind was pretty unique. :3

As was spinning battering items with a dash attack.

 

[Diddy Kong]

You bring it up every 10 seconds. You brought it up during a Mario AND Pokemon debate, iirc.

Oh my god... ZELDA RELEVANCE DOESN'T MATTER. ONLY SMASH DOES. IF RELEVANCE WAS SO IMPORTANT, THEN FALCON AND NESS WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN IN BRAWL. NOR WOULD G&W, ICE CLIMBERS, OR SHEIK! Stop living in 1998, is that your excessive argument? OoT3D. That is all. Sheik has been in 2 Smash games already. And no, I haven't played Skyward Sword. Don't plan to. And I can ALREADY tell you, I'd rather see Sheik than Impa because Sheik is a character I've gotten used to in Smash. I don't want to see her replaced with someone who would, according to you, have the NEAR EXACT SAME MOVESET for some s*** reason like relevance.

If Zelda relevance did not mather explain me this:

Zelda characer of choice in N64: Ocarina of Time's Adult Link (despite the younger Link being more "important" to Sakurai)
Zelda characters of choice in Melee: Ocarina of Time's Adult Link, Young Link (also Majora's Mask), Zelda / Sheik and Ganondorf originally planned with a sword he didn't even use in Ocarina of Time but a DEMO of what was to be the next Zelda game (turned out to be Wind Waker)
Zelda characters of choice in Brawl: Twilight Princess' Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, an unused Sheik model given to Sakurai by the makers of TP, and Toon Link from the Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass.

Only in Brawl it did not mather, it seems. But Brawl was lazy with Zelda characters, and you know it. And again, only Sheik stands in the way of propper representation.

All characters in Smash have a fanbase, heck even Pichu and Dr.Mario do. That's why we have a frequent poster called PICHU FAN here, and Shorty who wants a Dr.Mario revamp which I honestly doubt it gonna happen. Those 2 where easily the least deserving characters in Melee, and in Brawl, Sheik is the least deserving. Yet all 3 of these characters got their fanbases. Didn't stop them from cutting characters earlier, won't stop them from doing so now.

Besides, Sheik's moveset is 100% MADE UP. NOTHING that Sheik does in Melee and Brawl has she ever actually done in Zelda: Ocarina of Time (would like to bring up other titles, BUT I CAN'T AS SHE DOESN'T APPEAR IN THEM). The Needles, the Chain, even the transformation ; as Sheik was a change of clothes with an alternate NAME as for Zelda to hide herself, in just ONE instance. She actually did so, to avoid getting captured by Ganondorf. Well I don't want to spoil to much but: Skyward Sword has no Ganondorf for Zelda to hide herself from.

Impa also has far more fighting potential as shown in Skyward Sword, both off screen and on screen. I would elaborate, but Skyward Sword is a recent title, and yet have to finish it. Which of coarse makes me hold back in these sort of arguements a lot, which leads to people mis intrepretending them.

All of the other characters you mentioned, Ice Climbers, Pit, Mr.Game & Watch are from Nintendo RETRO franchises. As far I know, Zelda is still getting recent titles. Quite a lot actually, which makes even the most warranted characters from MY personal favorite series almost be considered retro <_< Namely Dixie Kong and King K.Rool.

Also to Pieman: I'd agree on the uniqueness of Zelda / Sheik if other characters as Zero Suit Samus and Pokemon Trainer where not added as new concepts. This, togheter with the more than rumoured planned Diddy and Dixie duo makes me believe the Zelda / Sheik combination is not the most unique thing at all, as is infact more than outdated.

Peach has the turpings as her Down B cause it's a throwback to the very first game she was playable in. But most people even suggested she should have more Super Princess Peach attacks pre-Brawl actually. But that doesn't mather, as Peach, unlike Zelda, is still the same person every time. Every Zelda game takes place in a whole different place and time, which was also discussed last page. :/

Also Mewtwo WAS unique. He's the only cut unique moveset from Brawl, with a massive popularity to boot. His seniority far outclasses Sheik, as does his popularity, importance, and appearances.

Zelda is as much "flavor of the month" as Pokemon and Fire Emblem are to a degree infact. Maybe less so, cause we (most of the time) have our 3 main characters: Link, Zelda and Ganon(dorf, not always). The rest of the serie's favorite characters are one offs, and even there Sheik fails to the likes of Midna, Skull Kid and Ghirahim easily. Now I wouldn't go as far as Sheik not being a better choice than THOSE, but only for Melee I would say that's true. Actually Skull Kid instead of Sheik in Melee, and Midna instead of Sheik in Brawl would easily be received just as well, if not better (sans the Skull Kid fans getting their character cut). Also, "flavor of the month" could also go to Toon Link for replacing Young Link, but you don't mention that because..?

Impa infact stands out, especially in Skyward Sword, as a re-occuring character getting a huge boost in story significance. It's like, Skull Kid coming back, and turns out to be the ACTUAL MAIN villian. If that where to happen, don't you think Skull Kid would be massively suggested?
I think so, but the fact is, Impa appeared before any other Zelda character of old got their "revival", even before Sheik, who was scrapped from Twilight Princess, and in the next major console game Skyward Sword: Impa took over any role Sheik would've been able to do. I'll avoid spoilers, but seeing as though I played through Skyward Sword twice since yesterday, why shouldn't you believe me on this? The fact she didn't appear in Melee was cause her most major role was in Skyward Sword obviously <_<

And to continue, I believe Impa will be more re-occuring now, and even if there was the be a next Smash Bros., she'd maybe be able to have her own spot instead of taking Sheik's. Perhaps theres an extremely slight chance Sheik herself would return in a next Zelda, but I don't think that will happen. Why? Cause she was a disguise for Zelda, and people would look through the plot hole right away. Impa therefore has much more going for her than given credit for, and I am just spreading the message, mainly cause I find the clinging to Sheik mostly unncececary, and mostly defended by people who don't even know the Zelda series so well.

 

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@Pieman: You were heavily exaggerating that if Sakurai had more time, he'd add in EVERYONE EVER. I should've been specific on that...
Roster decisions are made ahead of time, and are only changed due to time or if other problems occur like with Dixie.
Mewtwo was to be in the game.
Roy was to be in the game.
Dr. Mario was to be in the game.
Dixie was to be in the game as a partner to Diddy.
Toon Zelda/Sheik was to be in the game.
Sonic WASN'T to be in the game and was added into the Roster in 2007.

It's not like "if we had more time, we would've had Ridley, Geno, Mega Man, K. Rool, Krystal, etc.". It would've just been Mewtwo, Roy, and POSSIBLY Dr. Mario. Given the fact that there is no "Toon" Sheik in existance, Sakurai probably changed his mind of her.

You are right, though, when it came to priority.
Jigglypuff, Toon Link, and Wolf came before Mewtwo, Roy, and Doc.
Jigglypuff for being a 64 veteran, Toon Link and Wolf for being new. Mewtwo and Roy were left in the dust, unfinished (but farther along the rest).
As for Dr. Mario, he probably would've been that thrown in character because Sakurai could. And most likely, Doc would've been like Nana in the fact that he could just copy near all of Mario's data as she does Popo, but have some data of his own for differences from Mario, which is why I believe Doc would've been an easy add and is in the same boat as Mewtwo and Roy for time restraints.

We don't need word about Mewtwo and Roy (and again, POSSIBLY Doc). Sakurai had stated that there were more characters he was going to add but couldn't due to time restraints. Mewtwo was farthest along in completion with Roy in 2nd.
By association, they were cut due to time restraints.