New Smash Bros for WiiU

[Johnknight1]

Well if the learning curve was indeed that difficult for the average gamer, perhaps he could take a look a P:M.

The learning curve for that game isn't too hard to grasp. I've been mentoring someone for about a month and half and he's been doing fine understanding advanced techniques and performing them. He could probably make the learning curve slightly more difficult than Brawl, but not as fast as Melee. Whatever he can possibly do to get some "real" weight classes in there, I'll be fine. I just want the game to have more control over what you're doing. That's just something I couldn't stand in Brawl; never knowing when the **** you were going to trip.

Advance Techniques are easy to learn, but take long to perfectly put in with your competitive play. I know. I've been using Advance Techniques for half a decade, and I still got a lot to learn.

I do think there is a way to make the game simpler for fans, and I think Brawl was a step in the right direction for that. I think that really Melee just dumped a lot of new stuff on new players that takes a long time to learn and a lot of patience.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think Brawl did that well to, they just went a bit too far with the slowness, the shields, and the hitstun. If they had Melee's hitstun, a sort of in between speed of Melee and 64, and Brawl's air mobility and shields / defensive game I think we could be hitting on pure gold.

Generally speaking then of coarse.

Would be nice to have some combo game more similar to Smash 64 and Melee as well, but be able to live as long as you do in Brawl. Gives newbies a chance to to strike back after you finish an epic combo, but they still live. Not that you couldn't combo again, but it makes them learn from mistakes. Without having to lose a stock already. Would be more fair to heavier characters to.

Gotta say that I did love the jumping in Brawl a lot though, so even if we have a faster game I hope that at least stays. It didn't make sence that in Melee Fox was much harder to KO from the top than Bowser anyway.

 

[Deleted member]

Are you going on about that one article talking about Smashville, how it would supposedly change with the seasons and how "eventually it led to us making a whole character!"

It was like, from some French radio interview with Sakurai or something stupid like that?

Because I don't think that's what's being referred to.

I'm talking the one that people claim was from Famitsu.

However, how in the Hell could one be considered, if Sakurai said that one will never be in?!

This decision HAD to have been before Brawl's trailer, as that was when the Nintendog was confirmed to be in Brawl as the result of a then unknown item.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I don't wanna throw puppies or kitties as items though

 

[Oasis_S]

So Sakurai initially considered the Villager at the start of development to the point of thinking up a moveset for him, decided it shouldn't be done, and went on developing Brawl, eventually releasing a trailer. Are you going to say that can't happen in seven months?

And I mean, who cares if that article is even out there or not. Animal Crossing isn't getting any characters. We both know that.

 

[Diddy Kong]

No but it would be cool to have more stages from other series like that without having a character from it. The Wii series come to mind.

 

[Deleted member]

Sakurai had stated that movesets took time to design, and he used, ironically, Diddy Kong as an example. I need to find where he said this, but I know he said it involved using little poseable action figures to decide what the moves look like frame by frame.
EDIT: Here is is: http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/15390

Also,

I remember you saying at the start of development that you couldn’t very well make a Nintendog fight.

Right after he said that, he posts a link to the image I posted. Which means while he mentions Nintendog specifically, Animal Crosser was ALSO in the same boat.


EDIT: Also, where is this supposed confirmation that a Crosser was considered? I STILL have yet to see it.

 

[Oasis_S]

No but it would be cool to have more stages from other series like that without having a character from it. The Wii series come to mind.

I want the Mii without a stage. Maka Wuhu made me hate Wuhu Island.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I want Miis, but on a stage and not playable. Or maybe also as a form of an AT.

Diddy is also probably one of, if not the most acrobatic character in Brawl. So its not much of a surprise Sakurai mentioned him for that. But still cool to know.

 

[ssbowns]

3rd party games that come to mind when thinking about Nintendo:
- Megaman
- Castlevania
- Ninja Gaiden
- Contra

Having a character, stage, at or anything from those series would be great.

 

[ProfPeanut]

Anyone wanna speculate whether we see Impa or Sheik in the next Zelda titles, or Ganondorf or Toon Link? It's kinda important to the Zelda roster I guess.

I think the most likely newcomer from LoZ will be Vaati, just based on the number of appearances combined with story relevance, though I GUESS Impa can make similar claims. I don't really mind whether we get Impa or Sheik - I'd rather have Tetra any day. Toon Zelda depends on whether the dev team/Sakurai can think of something that'll declone her, such as putting more emphasis on her Light Arrows.

 

[Luco]

Hrmm.... With zelda I keep feeling as if it's a dark room and wherever I go i'm walking in to walls. Basically i'm not sure who should come next. It could be one of a couple candidates, but at this stage it's really not plausible to assume that any one of them has significant claims over the other until further data comes out. At least with Pokemon franchise we know there'll probably be a fifth/sixth gen, whatever, and there are a couple candidates there, but with zelda it's just not so clear cut. If it was up to me, I'd probably revamp Ganon and put in either Ghirahim or a new zelda char. For all we know, another zelda game will be out (perhaps on the DS) by the time next SSB comes around. OR they might do what they did with FE in melee and advertise a new character. I dunno. I wouldn't rule out anyone such as Impa, tingle, whoever else, but... Urg... Too much :-P

Brain hurts from all that, but you kind of get my point...

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I want the Mii without a stage. Maka Wuhu made me hate Wuhu Island.

You hate Maka Wuhu because of its glitch? Anyway, Wuhu Island should be treated like Delfino Plaza; the battlefield travels from one area, to the other.

 

[SmashChu]

Yes, but what he said was right. Melee is the smash game most people played first because their friends fell in love with first. I know just as many "casual" smashers who play Melee fairly often as "casual" smashers who play Brawl. Actually most of the "casual" smashers who I know tend to liken to Melee more. It was the easiest smash bros game for myself to get into (no, REALLY INTO IT!), and it is the main reason I keep coming back here. I am hoping for at least one of these two smash bros games to be the next Melee. Not exactly like Melee; actually totally different. But up to the caliber of greatness that Melee achieved!

You do understand most of that is true because Melee came before Brawl. of course it would the first one people got into.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

I still not have recieved this supposed "confirmation" about Animal Crosser being planned with a moveset.

Or is the only source the supposed Famitsu magazine article that was confirmed to be FALSE?

I can't find any scans for the article itself, but the February 29th, 2008 issue of Famitsu most definitely had some stuff on Brawl. Lots of Japanese sites say it mentioned that:

- Sakurai was toying with the idea for an Animal Crossing Guy moveset with a bug net and a shovel, but decided against it very early on for reasons we already know.
- Sakurai wanted another FE character but wasn't picky as to who, so Intelligent Systems chose Ike. "I wanted him to feel heavy, despite looking rather light." He also notes specifically not including the Ragnell ranged attack for the sake of balance.
- Sakurai planned for a Diddy and Dixie tag-team duo early on, but cut it due to "circumstances."

I'm too lazy to import a magazine that'd take forever to read just to confirm something that nobody in Japan seems to dispute, so you're on your own there.

 

[Metal Overlord]

I'm listening to some of the Pokemon music (the Pikachu's Jukebox-type of music)... god, I want cry my eyeballs out, I really miss old Pokemon

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think the most likely newcomer from LoZ will be Vaati, just based on the number of appearances combined with story relevance, though I GUESS Impa can make similar claims. I don't really mind whether we get Impa or Sheik - I'd rather have Tetra any day. Toon Zelda depends on whether the dev team/Sakurai can think of something that'll declone her, such as putting more emphasis on her Light Arrows.

Vaati would be cool to have to, but his last appearance was Four Swords Adventures I think? If he had a more recent role I would suggest him as well. Same with Tingle.

If we have a Toon Zelda, her Skyward Sword appearance combined with Impa will take the spot I'd say. The actual Toon Zelda is yet to appear since Spirit Tracks, and we might not see Toon Zelda characters in the upcoming games for Wii U and 3DS.

Zelda Wii U and 3DS are still in development though. Yes, they'll probably be released before Smash, but character choices will be made beforehand. Thus I feel its likelier than not we get Skyward Sword as main Zelda theme in Smash 4.

Impa therefore stands a much bigger chance than people give her credit for.

Also, Ike should have had the ranged attack from Ragnell for his B instead of copying Roy. Can't stress it enough that that was just plain stupid. Ike would've felt heavy if he was Link's weight to. There's hoping that they'll revamp him for Smash 4, and we get an actual heavy swordsman instead.

 

[ProfPeanut]

Vaati would be cool to have to, but his last appearance was Four Swords Adventures I think? If he had a more recent role I would suggest him as well. Same with Tingle.

If we have a Toon Zelda, her Skyward Sword appearance combined with Impa will take the spot I'd say. The actual Toon Zelda is yet to appear since Spirit Tracks, and we might not see Toon Zelda characters in the upcoming games for Wii U and 3DS.

Zelda Wii U and 3DS are still in development though. Yes, they'll probably be released before Smash, but character choices will be made beforehand. Thus I feel its likelier than not we get Skyward Sword as main Zelda theme in Smash 4.

Impa therefore stands a much bigger chance than people give her credit for.

Also, Ike should have had the ranged attack from Ragnell for his B instead of copying Roy. Can't stress it enough that that was just plain stupid. Ike would've felt heavy if he was Link's weight to. There's hoping that they'll revamp him for Smash 4, and we get an actual heavy swordsman instead.

Meh, I haven't finished Skyward Sword, so I can't say for certain how much chance Impa has. And I don't believe in the "latest games means higher chance" mentality, so I'm not swayed by that argument.

And Ike feels plenty heavy already, what with short jumps and slowish yet strong attacks! Why even bother giving him a ranged move? What would that do for his fighting style?

 

[Diddy Kong]

For Toon Link it definitely helped to have had recent appearances, same with Sheik, Young Link and Ganondorf in Melee. And just about every major character from TP was in, including an unused Sheik. Only Midna was missing. But they where pretty lazy with Zelda characters anyway. And I don't feel they are going to change much in that regard for Smash 4. Except for some major revamps.

Yet unlike for TP, there is no SS Sheik design, and why should they come up for one? It doesn't suit SS Zelda at all, and there is Impa running around. Skyward Sword is also the best game to revamp Link on as a base.

Ike would benefit from having a ranged attack cause he's not all to great to begin with. And if anything, he should be a tad lighter and faster. But I don't see that happening soon anymore.

 

[Conviction]

@prof : you can't be serious when you say how would giving ike a ranged attack would help him...there's zoning, camping, option limits. Ike with a projectile would really scary.

 

[Diddy Kong]

@prof : you can't be serious when you say how would giving ike a ranged attack would help him...there's zoning, camping, option limits. Ike with a projectile would really scary.

In return, they should make the ranged attack have some lag similar to his other stronger moves. And make it cover as much distance as say, 3/4th of a Boomerang? Maybe slightly less even. If he then would also be lighter (about Link's weight now, Link would / should be lighter anyway) a bit faster in running, and have a far more powerful Aether which covers more horizontal distance (as it should) even further than Marth's Up B goes now we could have something there.

I wouldn't mind if he had some reduce in power either then. Safe the heavy swordman stylo for someone else, most noticably: Ganon. Sure, Ike should still be strong, but more like Donkey Kong, if not a little less. He would still have some slow, powerful attacks as F Tilt (which should be a little faster, and less powerful) and F Smash (same idea). Would be really cool to see, a long with Link getting the Skyward Strike. SWORD BEAMS EVERYWHERE BABY!

So adding up all, Ike would be a more agile character (still no where as fast as Marth yet though), with more safe options and the power of his moves better spread out. The Ragnell ranged attack would still be sort of slow though, but with his better speed he'd still be able to get around with it. Aether covering more horizontal distance would also help his recovery, and approaching. I'd like if Ike if he'd be able to hit with all parts of the move (doing maximal damage) he'd heal a little 10%~15% or so. A fully succesful Aether should be able to do about 25~30% damage, easily. But the Brawl hitstun remains, untill the last hit which'd have better knockback (before he lands, similary to his Final Smash but weaker of coarse). Super Armor remains however. And keep his aerials just about the same as they are now.

Also, I'd like a Final Smash involving blue fire, like his finishing blow agains the end boss in Radiant Dawn, and how Path of Ridiance is called Path of Blue Flames in Japanese. Would be a throw back to his lame *** Roy carbon copy move Eruption and the Great Aether from Brawl.

 

[Oasis_S]

Thanks Toise. I was worried for a moment.

 

[Pichu Fan]

For Toon Link it definitely helped to have had recent appearances, same with Sheik, Young Link and Ganondorf in Melee. And just about every major character from TP was in, including an unused Sheik. Only Midna was missing. But they where pretty lazy with Zelda characters anyway. And I don't feel they are going to change much in that regard for Smash 4. Except for some major revamps.

Yet unlike for TP, there is no SS Sheik design, and why should they come up for one? It doesn't suit SS Zelda at all, and there is Impa running around. Skyward Sword is also the best game to revamp Link on as a base.

Ike would benefit from having a ranged attack cause he's not all to great to begin with. And if anything, he should be a tad lighter and faster. But I don't see that happening soon anymore.

You know what may just happen is sakurai will be lazy and give zelda her SS design but give sheik impas SS design and call it sheik. That actually would suit me.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think Sakurai will not be THAT lazy to call Impa Sheik, but other than that, it's what I expect will happen yes.

 

[Pichu Fan]

you never know, and sheik not having a SS design isnt a problem. You can use the design from a RECENT game called OCARINA OF TIME 3D in which SHEIK STARS IN.

 

[Big-Cat]

you never know, and sheik not having a SS design isnt a problem. You can use the design from a RECENT game called OCARINA OF TIME 3D in which SHEIK STARS IN.

Last I check, Sheik was a supporting character at best.

You know, it's funny. If what Diddy has been saying is true (and I've seen some of the stuff he's referred to myself), the most opposition to Impa is in this thread, yet others are more open minded about the idea, especially some competitive Zelda players who think she should get a new Down B.

 

[Deleted member]

I can't find any scans for the article itself, but the February 29th, 2008 issue of Famitsu most definitely had some stuff on Brawl. Lots of Japanese sites say it mentioned that:

- Sakurai was toying with the idea for an Animal Crossing Guy moveset with a bug net and a shovel, but decided against it very early on for reasons we already know.- Sakurai wanted another FE character but wasn't picky as to who, so Intelligent Systems chose Ike. "I wanted him to feel heavy, despite looking rather light." He also notes specifically not including the Ragnell ranged attack for the sake of balance.
- Sakurai planned for a Diddy and Dixie tag-team duo early on, but cut it due to "circumstances."

I'm too lazy to import a magazine that'd take forever to read just to confirm something that nobody in Japan seems to dispute, so you're on your own there.

Toying implies that he was jokingly making ideas for it, kind of like what I do for some random characters. And it seems he brushed it off prior to development, leading to the statement that characters like it won't be playable if it makes no sense for them to fight.

Unless...."pra_mai" happens to be the Animal Crosser.

But I admit, I was wrong in that there was no information regarding it aside from that fake article. But I am still right, in that the Animal Crosser wasn't seriously considered. Merely "toyed" with.

 

[Diddy Kong]

And we all know, Sheik ain't gonna be in by herself. And I wouldn't say so quickly that Sheik STARS in OoT either. Y'all is some hard ***** on this. What Kuma said is true, that most opposition comes from this thread. Most of you are not even familiar with Zelda in the first place.

Besides Sheik's boring old appearance in OoT3D, Skyward Sword is by far the more hyped game anyway, and got mass attention. Much more than a money maker as OoT3D, which has been ported plenty of times. That, and Impa's SS role outshines Sheik's, while she also appears in the same game as her. Other identity for sure, but Link and Zelda are also noticably different in both games.

Besides, Ganondorf and Zelda's B moves would be more than enough representation from OoT I feel. Zelda has moved 3 major console games past OoT, I say for such an enormous growth it should reflect so in Smash 4.

Also, Skyward Sword sold better than OoT3DS. And overall, OoT isn't even regarded as the best Zelda, that is A Link To The Past by most fans. Twilight Princess (counting both Wii and GameCube versions) out sold N64 Ocarina of Time as well. So I see NO NEED to remain in 1998 with keeping Sheik.

 

[Oasis_S]

But I admit, I was wrong in that there was no information regarding it aside from that fake article. But I am still right, in that the Animal Crosser wasn't seriously considered. Merely "toyed" with.

Well, if you really want to find some way for you to be RIGHT.


I wonder how many other characters are like the Villager. Sakurai has said he had a lot of other ideas for characters, and I bet he wasn't just referring to the Forbidden 7.

 

[Deleted member]

While we're at it, let's change Zelda's whole moveset to reflect the school-girl she is in SS, giving her an excuse to NEED a bodyguard such as Impa. (SS Zelda + Smash Zelda's moves = No sense)
Let's also axe Ganondorf, and replace him with someone relevant, such as Ghirahim. Demise can be in his FS.
Let's axe Toon Link, since he's irrelevant now. Groose is much more relevant and popular, so let's go with him.
And let's change Link's entire moveset to reflect SS.

So now we got:
SS Link
SS Zelda/Impa
Ghirahim
Groose

Perfect.

And also, let's add Tiki Tong instead of K. Rool. That fat croc hasn't been relevant in a mainstream DK game since, when, exactly? Dixie Kong needs to stay out too. Cranky Kong is where it's at.

 

[ChronoBound]

Its possible that Sakurai could get the idea for Impa from Aonuma. Sakurai is probably piecing together his roster for Smash 4 as we speak, and he probably currently has Zelda as "Zelda/Sheik". If Sakurai comes to Aonuma and the Zelda team asking if they have a scrapped design for a Skyward Sword Sheik, its possible they point him to Impa as that game's "Sheik".

However, despite Diddy Kong's protests, Sheik does seem quite important to Sakurai. She was the second character that the Zelda series was given, and Sakurai was even going to go as far as create an original playable character for Smash Bros. (Toon Sheik) just because he thought Sheik was central to Zelda's identity in Smash Bros.

 

[Qlaw]

Sakurai wanted another FE character but wasn't picky as to who, so Intelligent Systems chose Ike. "I wanted him to feel heavy, despite looking rather light." He also notes specifically not including the Ragnell ranged attack for the sake of balance.

You mean Roy?

 

[Big-Cat]

However, despite Diddy Kong's protests, Sheik does seem quite important to Sakurai. She was the second character that the Zelda series was given, and Sakurai was even going to go as far as create an original playable character for Smash Bros. (Toon Sheik) just because he thought Sheik was central to Zelda's identity in Smash Bros.

She was the second Zelda character REVEALED. I believe Zelda was revealed later as a bit of a twist since Zelda herself fighting seemed unlikely unless she was Sheik.

Funny though how Zelda was the one that was the first to be revealed in Brawl out of the two.

 

[Disfunkshunal]

@skyward sword being more hyped/more mass attention

That isn't a fair statement because the world was different when the two games came out. When skyward sword came out, it came out at a time where the Zelda series was well known and extremely popular. Also think about how now everyone has a computer and how videogames get so much media coverage now. If you compare that to ocarina it's no wonder why skyward sword got more hype. If link had gotten a star on the walk of game prior to ocarina, maybe it would've been more hyped =\

@metal
I remember my friend used to play the hell out of two perfect girls for me.

 

[Oasis_S]

I'm pretty sure that even if we get Impa, Zelda will still "Transform" into her. No need to separate them.

 

[ChronoBound]

I'm pretty sure that even if we get Impa, Zelda will still "Transform" into her. No need to separate them.

I have a feeling that might happen too. The only reason I can see Sakurai separating them would be to give Zelda five slots to match it with Mario and Pokemon.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

And yet OOT3D is selling more than Skyward Sword. Hype means nothing, really. Popularity is where it's at.

Likewise, it's the character that represents the series themselves, not some B moves. In fact, Zelda should get rid of her 3 and use moves that only she can use. She'd make a neat Barrier Maiden. There's various media. She could keep her TP appearance, and use that Sword in her B moves as well. And so on. Sheik is the only full rep of OOT in Brawl, anyway. Those B moves are Link's, not Zelda's, which makes it all the more annoying that they don't give her some unique magic. For a fairly strong magician, she sure isn't good at doing her own stuff.

 

[Big-Cat]

Do I need to repeat myself? There is a very legitimate reason as to why they should be separated (because needed is very subjective). It's been shown that switching between the two is anything is inefficient and there isn't a way to switch quickly via transforming. Not only that, but their north-south design hasn't fared well at all with Sheik historically being either significantly or far better than Zelda, giving less of a reason to play as Zelda.

For both diversity and to let them both grow, breaking the design into two characters is a better choice in the long run.

@Chrono
Will you stop with the whole slots thing? You put way too much faith into such a thing. And, if we want to get technical, there are more characters that exist in the Mario universe in the game than there are Zelda characters.

@Hyper
That doesn't sound rather fun for her B moves. And while they're not canonically her moves, they could've easily be renamed as something else and no one would be the wiser. Din's Fire functions nothing like in OoT. Nayru's Love was basically hyper armor with no health loss. Farore's Wind was probably the only that's close to its original use.

That being said, Zelda could use a revamp.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well, if you really want to find some way for you to be RIGHT.


I wonder how many other characters are like the Villager. Sakurai has said he had a lot of other ideas for characters, and I bet he wasn't just referring to the Forbidden 7.

Sakurai could also have considered quite some characters who are Assist Throphies to be playable. Most noticably Saki, Isaac, Jill, Lyn and perhaps even Waluigi, and Knuckle Joe. From them all, I can only right now consider the first 2 to be viable choices, but that doesn't mean the others cannot be brought up as well. Maybe Shadow and the Metal Gear swords guy where considered as well?

It's overall enthausiasm of the team to actually WANT TO MAKE THAT CHARACTER, which could come out of overall popularity (as in: will this please the fans more than X character?) or overall ability to make them fit in and be unique and they could've come with with troubles for Isaac, Saki and Jill in the fitting in regard.

And I guess we have a new team working on Smash 4 wasn't that right? Sakurai himself stated somewhere he doesn't quite know who the team is, and that Nintendo picked some guys for him to work with. That could either end up as good, as in experienced staff members will be able to get the characters to fit in better with previous expeirences, or bad: a new team will probably only add in characters that fit in easily enough and characters very populary demanded. Therefore I wouldn't count on Ridley or K.Rool as much yet, as those characters would take quite some expeirenced staff members.

Coming back to Zelda again, I think that if Impa is as much as even suggested she'll get worked on for sure, cause the team would regonsize that with Sheik it's possible for Impa to fit in just as easily. Remember that some movesets don't write their own, and they had to come up for a lot of stuff for characters as Fox, Captain Falcon, Zero Suit Samus and Sheik who all have totally made up B moves except for a few (ZSS's B for example). Impa has more stuff to work with than most other recent Zelda characters, with the sole exeption being Ghirahim. Who might be in the Midna category of extremely popular and fitting, but not making it probably due to being a one off.

Note that Skyward Sword especially was hyped up by Nintendo a lot, with tons of trailers (more than any game I've seen recently) and the stuff about Miyamoto saying that for them it'd be hard to go back to basic botton controlls for Zelda, and that he felt creating a master piece with Skyward Sword. Most likely they remade OoT to have one more "classic" Zelda, though the DS had already games that couldn't even be considered classic anymore, as Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks. Note that SS is also the 25th anniversary game of Zelda, and combined with all this I feel it's far more likely than not we get a characters based on this game. And I say, if Ghirahim has to be that one, it's more likely than not Impa joins in with him. Maybe with a less unique moveset from Sheik than she could've had without Ghirahim, but she'd be in nonetheless.

Also, Skyward Sword outsold Ocaina of Time 3DS.

 

[ChronoBound]

Skyward Sword only outsold Ocarina of Time 3DS in North America. In other regions, Skyward Sword vastly underperformed. Its to date the lowest selling 3D Zelda in Japan.