New Smash Bros for WiiU

[Metal Overlord]

52-character roster, including transformations

 

[IhaveSonar]

On an entirely different topic...

I would love to see the return of cut mini-games.... Seriously, I loved race to the finish and capture the trophies in Melee's classic mode.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Yep, like always, there are no guarantees. No sense in getting worked up about at this point, personally I'm more interested in what's going on with the Wii U.

48, 52 with transformations sounds about right.

That's pretty much what I want. That way, the roster will have an even number of fighters; this also helps, in terms of setting up a 50:50 ratio with the starters and unlockables.

 

[nLiM8d]

As long as Diddy Kong is here to champion this character, the argument will persist. He will still have sound claims as well, although the not so sound claims will be invoked each time he brings up the subject.

Like I mentioned, people will always bring up points that they feel disqualify the character, the "disqualification" as a premise is itself about as moot as his approach to replacing other characters, as this is a speculation topic. Every one is welcome to have their own opinions.

Actually, its all mostly subjective opinion now.

I would love to see the return of cut mini-games.... Seriously, I loved race to the finish and capture the trophies in Melee's classic mode.

Would you really?

 

[Metal Overlord]

Well, I would love to see them back, too. So wut da prollem is, my man?

 

[Deleted member]

Pretty difficult to decide. Sakurai had added 12-14 more characters per game (64: 12, Melee: 14, Brawl: 13), so we could plausibly see up to 53 characters. However, I also do think that it's not out of the realm of possibility that Sakurai may go conservative with adding more characters, 50 or less is definitely possible. However, I can name off more then 20 realistic choice for SSB4 and if this is the last game Sakurai is making, he will make sure to get as much as he want in the game as possible.

So I'm thinking we will see 49-53 characters in SSB4 (45-49 slots). However, I do expect the franchise to scale back in characters in SSB5 since I sincerely doubt the franchise will ever get 59+ characters (transformation included). It simply can't handle it.

But pinpointing the exact number? It's in the range, but exact number is difficult.

 

[Diddy Kong]

^I plan on reading your argument, but I have this foreboding that it involves replacing Shiek. Its a wonder why both can't coexist.



Too bad I couldn't take you up on that video thing, Star.

Saruman's soliloquy about "the deep" would have been perfect

Both Sheik and Impa cannot be in the same game, because Impa would be the 'freshed up' version of Sheik. Could either coexist as a Zelda transformation or a separate character, where Sheik cannot. And having two characters so similar is not my cup of tea.

Cause frankly, one of them is enough. This has to do with who's more worthy of the spot however. I'd gladly take a Luigified clone if it goes for an extra playable Roy, Dixie Kong, Mewtwo, Toon Link, you name it... Bigger names in general than the supporting Zelda characters.

People might not actually like Sheik's removal, but it's imo one of the more legimate ways of getting a new Zelda character in cause frankly most of them need some serious work. Link needs a revamp, Zelda needs a revamp, Ganondorf needs some actual moves, Toon Link wants to be different from Link more... I think there's a lof of work there. Impa > Sheik is lazy mode addition. And one I'd like. It's to be expected after getting the same treatment in Brawl.

Impa is basically creating a new character out of an older one. An older one which is heavily outdated as by now, and never had a chance to develop past Smash. Impa did, so unless Sheik suddenly gets a new role in Zelda, I don't think she should be in at all

 

[Deleted member]

No. The more legitimate way to get a new Zelda character would be this....

Spoiler

GET A NEW DAMN ZELDA CHARACTER!

 

[nLiM8d]

Sorry, I couldn't hear you beyond " 'freshed up' version"

Might have some words over that.

 

[Shorts]

I would HOPE nothing higher than low fifties.

My question is, where do you think Sakurai's focal point is going to lie in this game? I feel like in Brawl, he devoted A LOT of time to SSE, when maybe he should have devoted some of that time to... Iunno, balancing. I'm hoping he gives the proper time to balancing in the next installment. I know the focus of Smash is most definitely not competitive players, or casuals who play no items/stock, but I think they should be kept in mind a little bit more than they were in Brawl.

I would also like to see more levels with less annoying gimmicks. Not to say I don't like gimmicks, I like Pokefloats and even Hananbow, but levels like 75M, SMBros, and Spear Pillar with Cresselia are just... annoying. Melee had some annoying levels too, like Icicle Mountain, and some people don't like Brinstar Depths (Although I do), but I feel like Brawl amped up the OMGZ THIS IS UTTER CHAOS!!! factor of Smash.

Lastly, the items in Brawl are absolutely KILLER. I find a lot of them to be overpowered.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Impa would be new. Just not 100% completely cause she plays much like Sheik would.

Consider Ganondorf 2.5 to be your new Zelda character, a long with a more balanced Zelda and Link. How can you even be asking for new Zelda characters if the ones we have are crap? :/

Sorry, I couldn't hear you beyond " 'freshed up' version"

Might have some words over that.

Perfect example actually! Consider Sheik being Fox (or actually Falco, as Falco and Wolf are more different than Fox and Wolf perhaps), and Impa being Wolf. There's how much of a difference they could have. Except I'd trade the similar B moves to similar A moves. But I'll do a moveset about this tomorrow anyway.

 

[Deleted member]

Because...playstyle has nothing to do with character inclusion?
It's completely possible for there to be a new Zelda character such as Ghirahim, while fixing up the old ones. It's not like one can't be without the other.
Taking out Sheik won't make Zelda "better". Making Zelda better would make Zelda better.

 

[nLiM8d]

Because...playstyle has nothing to do with character inclusion?

False.

Read the Article that Shortie found.

There's how much of a difference they could have.

That's poor for you to mention. No one will ever consider Wolf replacing Fox.

Now you're helping my point.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Doubt it mathers though, cause Sheik overall isn't too very popular besides in Melee. Just check out the Melee Sheik subforums and compare them to the Brawl Sheik subforums. Fans move on if a character is not good anymore, same thing will happen with Meta Knight when / if he gets nerfed in Smash. Main difference between Meta Knight and Sheik is that Meta Knight is still very re-occuring, many times so actually, and is very important / and popular by fans OF THE KIRBY SERIES.

Nobody cares about re-ocurring except... you. Sheik is still an amazing character in Brawl, likewise, she's still heavily popular, and that has never changed. Meta Knight is popular in other series, and nobody cares about hos important they are in their own series. You seem to be under the impression it has any effect whatsoever on this. It doesn't. Importance is NOT a factor, which is the whole crux of your argument. Popularity has also been towards Sheik after all. Talk to me when Sheik is no longer as popular as Impa. This could take a while.

They where, at some point perhaps being considered into playable character status, but that's very likely BEFORE they started to implement the special moves for the other characters. Which does mean that in the end they PROBABLY left the Roy and Mewtwo data in to use for Ike / Lucario content.

You mean the only moves that are in common are their B moves and literally NOTHING else? Yeah, sorry, it doesn't hold up. Likewise, Flare Blade isn't even similar to Ike's B move. They're slightly alike, just like Shadow Ball and Aura Sphere is. Likewise, Aura Sphere, like Shadow Ball, were based upon the Charge Shot in he first place. As is, one similar move does not make sense to what you're saying. You're just flat out wrong here.

If Roy and Mewtwo were really considered, they would have a more detailed trophy (Roy doesn't even have one) or Mewtwo could've been a boss, and Roy an AT. Point is, eventually they didn't even bother giving them propper models.

They have data for playable characters. They were considered. Dur. I don't even have to much respond to this because you're ignoring facts for some fantasy-based interpretation.

I doubt it, as otherwise it would be pretty easy to hack Roy and Mewtwo into the game. But that's beside my knowlegde. And I just don't agree with your way of reasoning what to call a replaced character and what not.

In order for them to be replaced, they wouldn't have character data. Since they do, they weren't. You're just plain wrong. I can let GY take over on this, as he explained why I was wrong too. There is nothing to suggest they were outright replaced. Only character replaced was Pichu, not counting the Wire Frames, of course. You're using the definition wrong. I might believe you if Lucario had exactly the same moves as Mewtwo, and Ike has the same as Roy. But they don't. One move is a very bad definition of a replacement. If anything, they're substitutes at best.

Which is funny, cause Pichu was one of the more unique clones. Had the most 'own' moves from the clones right after Ganondorf.

Doesn't matter, because he was outright replaced. And Falco actually was more unique anyway. His play style wasn't even similar to Fox. Pichu... was barely different. Smaller, hurt himself, oh, sooooo different.

Your arguements don't hold any steady flow either, except of trying to proof me wrong with whatever you can. Subspace Emisary is not a cannon apperance for Sheik, or any other character. Just a Kirby game 'colored in' with Smash characters...

It's still a Smash Storyline. Sheik played a role in it. It doesn't matter if it's re-skinned, which it clearly was. It's still part of Smash's canon, which Sheik played a role in. She's important to Smash, where it matters. Hell, she's more important than the FE characters who had little relevance other than existing.

Sheik was more popular before, but I doubt she even has a significant proof of being more popular than Impa is with Zelda fans anymore either. Point is, you have to think about the future with Smash. If Sheik makes it yet again in Smash, but all Zelda characters have a character very similar to her in it, who is not her Smash and Zelda fans will wonder why they had Sheik in Smash instead of the re-occuring character. I don't think Impa's popularity AT THIS POINT is bigger than Sheik's, but given the time I easily think it's possible to exceed Sheik.

Too bad there's fans from more than just Zelda, which outweigh what you say. Once again, re-ocurring has no effect on who can get in. She could exceed her, but she has yet to. Don't be surprise if she doesn't. Next Zelda game, Impa and Ghirahim could become a fad. Kind of like Wind Waker did as soon as Twilight Princess was released. Sheik is so far the only one-off to still be popular to this day. All the rest were fads so far.

Which brings me back again: was Lucario ever more popular than Mewtwo anyways?
If Smash importance is everything, why did a very popular Melee character named Roy lose his spot as the second representitive along with Prince(cess) Marth(a) in Brawl then?

Lucario had an extremely popular movie, was the first revealed of 4th Gen, was super easy to get in Gen IV(something Mewtwo was not), and indeed was heavily popular. It would make sense to make the new character playable before the old. But it doesn't change that both were planned to be in.

Mis-placed uniqueness. There is nothing Sheik can do that Impa cannot do. Impa is even better due to having actual abilities in game which are NOT playing the harp, playing the harp, playing the harp to warp away, and playing the harp to teach songs. Point is: anyone shaped as Sheik can have Sheik's moveset.

None of this matters. Impa cannot do anything more than Sheik does in Smash. There is no reason to replace her that fits into Sakurai's Criteria. Try-Hyphen, could you quote that again, please?

Better yet, if Sheik's popularity had so much influence she would've returned in Zelda.

Influence in Smash, not the Zelda series, which has no relevance to Smash. Try again.

Would you believe ANYONE Pre-Brawl saying that Mewtwo was getting cut? I certainly wouldn't. Everyone was saying that only clones will get cut. They where wrong in the end.

Considering nobody who was added was a clone of anyone, I don't see the point of this statement whatsoever. Mewtwo didn't make the cut due to time constraints. THAT'S IT.

I'm not trolling. Only sometimes when reffering to Impa again as I know it's not a popular idea perse. But that's only because people don't want veterans cut. And refuse to listen to any kind of logic that Sheik actually isn't a relevant, or even unique character and that there are much better choices. I actually want Impa for some reasons, and one of them is preserving Sheik's fighting style while she gets the **** out of Smash, waiting for yet another chance to play the damn harp in another OoT remake.

You pretty much are now. You keep bringing up points that has zero effect on the criteria, which means that whatever you say does not matter in the slightest for Impa's chances. We've told you why it has little to no chance of happening, which we're using the criteria as our basis, which makes out more correct than you have been.

Am not one of them, but I do see their point however.

But we both know it won't happen.

I gave plenty of reasons, here and before.

Of which none prove us wrong either. All of them are bad.

I doubt there's a strong difference.

That small difference only proves Sheik is more wanted. It makes all the difference in the world.

Sheik is not even unique to herself. And by actually having abilities to fight, Impa is infact unique to Sheik. Unless you want Sheik to play the harp as one of her moves...

You're not sprouting logic. She's an unique fighter. The harp is not important whatsoever. She's a ninja, first and foremost. You're just nitpicking and something pointless. Yes, it should've been her final smash, but it doesn't actually make a hoot of a difference. She could always fight by her own style.

Doubt that it's actually Sheik herself they want to play as, as stated before.

Funny, because that's exactly who you're playing as.

You'll be hearing more from me about this topic, rest assured.

Maybe I can hear a relevant point? Because I have not seen anything yet that has a single effect on her chances at all. Relevance is not important, after all. Which is still the entire crux of your argument.

 

[Deleted member]

False.

Read the Article that Shortie found.

-facepalm-
Look in the context in which we're talking. Diddy's saying that characters can't be added from the Zelda series until the already existing characters are "better".

 

[nLiM8d]

I suppose I didn't know of the context of the talking points that I was making, silly me.

You were saying....?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Now that I think about it, I am now in support of Zoroark.
Not to replace Lucario. But just to be there.

Well, Zoroark is probably one of the best picks for a 5th generation rep. Its main competition is just with Victini.

1. ♛Omega™ 9,501
2. Oasis_S 3,261
3. Starphoenix 3,075
4. Super Smash Bros. Fan 2,980
5. berserker01 2,974
6. Shortiecanbrawl 2,960
7. xIblisx 2,420
8. --- 2,017
9. asage94 1,894
10. Metal Overlord 1,817
11. nLiM8d 1,801
12. HyperFalcon 1,446
13. KumaOso 1,368
14. PsychoIncarnate 1,293
15. Mario_and_Sonic_Guy 1,227
16. Johnknight1 1,058

.....Was it Omega's intention to just post as much BS as humanly possible in this thread?..

It seems that because I don't get involved with senseless discussions a lot, that may explain why I'm one of the lowest positioned users on that list.

Not saying he doesn't have good odds (I will at least admit to that), but from this and what I've heard from ChronoBound, that's pretty much how the Japanese thinks of Zoroark; as a Lucario replacement (generally speaking). While less blatant oversea, many people support Zoroark partly or even entirely because they feel Lucario will get replaced and they pick the one with a similar body. Of course there are those who support Zoroark for other reasons, but I do think Zoroark can be justified as an "expected, but not wanted" character because of this.

At least I'm giving out my Zoroark support, but I guess it's tough when other people don't consider it to be that big of a deal.

 

[---]

Character inclusion? Sounds like a good time to get this out again:

1. The character's inclusion must make people want to play the game.

2. The character must be unique.

3. The character must fit into the style of Super Smash Bros.

4. They must contribute to the game balance.

Ghirahim? That reminds me...

Spoiler

 

[Deleted member]

Wow. Ganondorf in that image has features of his 3 appearances. Nice.

 

[Metal Overlord]

Some of the more pessimistic attitudes I've seen towards character inclusion just make me SMH in disappointment...


People wanting others to "keep expectations in check"... for a video game. Well, ain't that somethin'

 

[Deleted member]

@HyperFalcon: I want to add that Young Link was also replaced. By Toon Link. Young Link doesn't have data either.

 

[nLiM8d]

Some of the more pessimistic attitudes I've seen towards character inclusion just make me SMH in disappointment...

Please, elaborate.

I think I've noted your opinions as respectable.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Ghirahim? That reminds me...

Spoiler

A humorous image, but seriously, I don't think Ganondorf has to worry about getting dumped. He's one of the greatest villains out there, so scrapping him would be a huge mistake.

 

[Big-Cat]

I am curious about how many total playable characters you think Smash 4 will get. My guess is 52 (that is total characters, not slots). To those who are currently browsing this topic, what is your guess?

I think that's about right. Something tells me, though, that certain characters won't return.

People might not actually like Sheik's removal, but it's imo one of the more legimate ways of getting a new Zelda character in cause frankly most of them need some serious work. Link needs a revamp, Zelda needs a revamp, Ganondorf needs some actual moves, Toon Link wants to be different from Link more... I think there's a lof of work there. Impa > Sheik is lazy mode addition. And one I'd like. It's to be expected after getting the same treatment in Brawl.

Impa is basically creating a new character out of an older one. An older one which is heavily outdated as by now, and never had a chance to develop past Smash. Impa did, so unless Sheik suddenly gets a new role in Zelda, I don't think she should be in at all

It's rather odd that an entire series of characters needs a revamp. Impa, at the very least, would be UPDATING, the roster. As I've said before, give Impa an alt. model ala Tekken 4 where Impa is still the head character. Let Zelda be on her own, Zelda can be balanced without the Sheik factor, we get a new face, and Sheik stays. Everyone wins except for the minority of players that used both in mid-match.

Because...playstyle has nothing to do with character inclusion?
It's completely possible for there to be a new Zelda character such as Ghirahim, while fixing up the old ones. It's not like one can't be without the other.
Taking out Sheik won't make Zelda "better". Making Zelda better would make Zelda better.

It does. If a character can't contribute anything new to the roster, they shouldn't be added when decisions must be made.

Taking Sheik away from Zelda COULD make her better. The idea was that the two would work in tandem, but this is rarely the case, especially in Melee as Sheik was leagues above Zelda. As I said already, without Sheik, Zelda can be balanced as a standalone character.

This raises the question about the Pokemon Trainer though. I still think a MvC type approach to their switching would do wonders.

 

[Deleted member]

I feel that the worst that we have to worry about Ganondorf is that he doesn't get the completely original moveset we are hoping for.

But being cut? Nah...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

@HyperFalcon: I want to add that Young Link was also replaced. By Toon Link. Young Link doesn't have data either.

To be fair, that one was rather obvious. Forgot about that. Although they're essentially alike, heh.

The rest of them were meant to be playable, and were not replaced.

 

[Deleted member]

@Kuma

-facepalm-
Look in the context in which we're talking. Diddy's saying that characters can't be added from the Zelda series until the already existing characters are "better".

10chars

 

[ChronoBound]

I think that's about right. Something tells me, though, that certain characters won't return.

What characters might those be?

 

[nLiM8d]

This raises the question about the Pokemon Trainer though. I still think a MvC type approach to their switching would do wonders.

You know, I had not considered that before. That way the pokeball doesn't have to be a direct indicator of "Please make a timed hit on me!"

That and the Down B can actually be considered an attack, very similar to my combo Diddy Dixie switch concept.

 

[Deleted member]

@HyperFalcon: Should I pull up my example for Dee Jay and T. Hawk?

 

[Deleted member]

I think that's about right. Something tells me, though, that certain characters won't return.

I'm getting similar feelings as well. That feeling is that all Nintendo Brawl vets will stay but Sonic and Snake won't return due to being third-party in Brawl.

 

[ChronoBound]

I'm getting the same feeling as well. That feeling is that all Brawl vets will stay but Sonic and Snake won't return due to being third-party.

I would actually be more bothered by Lucario and Ike leaving than Sonic and Snake since the latter two are "guests".

 

[Deleted member]

Unless Kojima and Sakurai had a falling out, I don't think Snake's going anywhere.
And unless Sega denies usage of Sonic this time, I don't see him leaving either.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

@HyperFalcon: Should I pull up my example for Dee Jay and T. Hawk?

Go for it. Honestly, nobody agrees with Diddy Kong here. The thing is, while I would like it to happen, I know it won't, and I won't even support it either. It's just a bad idea to replace someone for a lesser known CLONE. They can both co-exist anyway, which is the only acceptable thing by default.

I might've been fine with this if Sheik didn't make it in. Let's also note that one of the planned characters was Toon Sheik, meaning that we would've had a possible clone anyway, meaning we could have both with no issues.

 

[Deleted member]

To be fair, "Toon Sheik" could've just been a codename for Tetra, who IS kind of the Toon equivilent of Sheik.

 

[nLiM8d]

In the interest that other characters can share in the spotlight, Snake and Sonic are good to go.

It's just a bad idea to replace someone for a lesser known CLONE. They can both co-exist anyway, which is the only acceptable thing by default.

Thisisdashiznit.

 

[---]

I'm getting similar feelings as well. That feeling is that all Brawl vets will stay but Sonic and Snake won't return due to being third-party in Brawl.

Pretty much what I'm feeling, 3rd parties are expendable IMO, not to mention there hasn't been a game yet that has had a 3 party character lasting more than 1 game.


On a side note about switching characters with Shelda and PT, isn't the main problem of those moves the system load times rather than frame rate?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

To be fair, "Toon Sheik" could've just been a codename for Tetra, who IS kind of the Toon equivilent of Sheik.

Toon Sheik and Tetra had separate name files, so no.

 

[Deleted member]

@Diddy Kong

Take a look at Street Fighter IV (the original) T. Hawk and Dee Jay were not finished for the game. Does that mean that they were replaced with say, El Fuerte (grappler like T. Hawk) and Rufus (who's original design and personality were JUST like Dee Jay)? No. They were just unfinished.
And when Super Street Fighter IV came out, guess who was added? T. Hawk and Dee Jay. They were finished.
Same with Frank West in Marvel vs. Capcom 3. He was cut due to problems with his gameplay. And sure enough, he was added in Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 because his problems were taken care of. Was he "replaced" by anyone? No.

 

[Shorts]

What characters might those be?

Sonic and Snake?...

Other than them, I would say Lucario/Pokemon Trainer (Either Pokemon characters really) or.... yeah... I don't think Ike, Wolf, Lucas, ROB, or Toon Link are likely to be cut, though it COULD happen I guess.

IF ANYONE gets cut, axe Snake, then Sonic.