New Smash Bros for WiiU

[Metal Overlord]

LOL @ Krystal being a clone

I would personally give Sakurai a pride-obliterating *****slap if he even TRIED to make Krystal another damn space animal

 

[Deleted member]

Brawl is not the anime. At all. Pokemon Trainer is based upon Red, not Ash. Everything has been based upon the games now. There's your answer. And frankly, yeah, the hats are tradition. Why wouldn't they re-use their old colors? Toon Link got most of the same of Young Link's colors.

Everything, huh?

I clearly remember Mewtwo talking to me in my imported Green version. And how my Lucario in Platinum could speak to me about the "power of Aura".
Funny enough, I also remember my Jigglypuff in SoulSilver being able to swell up to the size of Godzilla.

In case you don't get it, everything has NOT been based upon the games.
The fact Mewtwo and Lucario talk is taken from the anime.
The fact that Jigglypuff can swell up into a giant is original and not from the games.
The fact that the Pokemon say their names is from the anime as well.

Here's another theory for you. It is commonly believed that the Pikachu in Smash represents Ash's.
While it probably isn't true, neither is your "Melee Pichu is Brawl Pikachu" crap.
And one costume isn't going to be enough to state it's true.

@Diddy: Nope. Sheik was always revealed first in Melee.
Even in Japan. Sheik's page was on Japan's Melee site on 10/30/2001. Zelda's was on 11/6/2001.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Pokedex though says something about Jiggs (or was it Wigglytuff)
being to swell up in order to look threatening/menacing.

 

[Pachinkosam]

LOL @ Krystal being a clone

I would personally give Sakurai a pride-obliterating *****slap if he even TRIED to make Krystal another damn space animal

Krystal is all right. But that voice is awful

 

[BKupa666]

What's this about Starfy? The theory he was a cut character sounds plausible, but if that's the case, why does he have no Forbidden Seven data? Also, his remaining hitbox is entirely intentional; Sakurai mentioned it prominently in his DOJO update, if I remember correctly.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

>implying people won't say 'why didn't they remive Sheik if we have a separate, better Sheik'

The problem with this is that didn't stop Falcon from being popular, despite not being as good as Ganondorf. Which already proves your point wrong.

>implying Krystal won't make it in cause she has the least clone potential of all other SF characters

Doesn't matter. She does the same stuff as the rest of them. She could be a clone too. There's nothing from stopping her from being one at all. Nobody wants her to be, of course. Doesn't mean she can't.

Could be, could also not be. I do think they'll probably go lazy mode with Zelda characters. My prediction; a slight revamped Ganon, Impa is Sheik 1.5, Toon Link is still roughly the same, Link gets Skyward Strike for a new side B. Zelda gets a new down B and gets better, balanced statistics.

And perhaps, just very perhaps Tingle gets in.

Impa is not better than Sheik as is. She's a secondary character. Sheik is still Zelda. You keep dismissing these facts in an attempt to bring in some character who's just been in a lot of games.

Just bring in Tingle, problem solved. You don't lose a two-time veteran, and don't REPLACE them, which is the exact reason Impa should not get in over Sheik, and you get a completely unique character instead. Whether or not Link'll get any major changes is unknown. He was barely changed in Melee. If there was no Forward B, he wouldn't have the bow. There's no reason for Zelda to get new moves. She just needs buffs and new properties.

@GY: Which all was relevant to only 64 and Melee. They payed attention more to the games now. Since, you know, that's where you get game material, and Sakurai rather specifying he wanted no Manga/Anime stuff as is.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Everything, huh?

I clearly remember Mewtwo talking to me in my imported Green version. And how my Lucario in Platinum could speak to me about the "power of Aura".
Funny enough, I also remember my Jigglypuff in SoulSilver being able to swell up to the size of Godzilla.

In case you don't get it, everything has NOT been based upon the games.
The fact Mewtwo and Lucario talk is taken from the anime.
The fact that Jigglypuff can swell up into a giant is original and not from the games.
The fact that the Pokemon say their names is from the anime as well.

Here's another theory for you. It is commonly believed that the Pikachu in Smash represents Ash's.
While it probably isn't true, neither is your "Melee Pichu is Brawl Pikachu" crap.
And one costume isn't going to be enough to state it's true.

@Diddy: Nope. Sheik was always revealed first in Melee.
Even in Japan. Sheik's page was on Japan's Melee site on 10/30/2001. Zelda's was on 11/6/2001.

Pikachu says its name in Yellow version.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Kupa: He might've been altered to be Assist Trophy-data, because they might've cut developing him on VERY early. With remaining things they made for Starfy, maybe they modified more AT-like?

 

[Deleted member]

Pikachu says its name in Yellow version.

Anime came before Yellow.
Yellow was made with the anime in mind.

 

[Starphoenix]

I read it a couple of pages back so I am not sure who said it specifically, but it was about Starfy possibly (big if) being "demoted" due to moveset difficulty, and that if such were the case that he would have problems being playable again. If that were the case then I would not think that Pit would have been playable in Brawl since I recall it being said that he was left out of Melee due to development having trouble implementing his flying mechanic. Whether that is true or not given the way in which misinformation spreads within this community I could not say, but what I do know is past problems do not always carry over into a new project. Many times developers are able to do more when they have a clean slate then when they are burdened and half way into an existing project.

What's this about Starfy? The theory he was a cut character sounds plausible, but if that's the case, why does he have no Forbidden Seven data? Also, his remaining hitbox is entirely intentional; Sakurai mentioned it prominently in his DOJO update, if I remember correctly.

It is possible some of the Assist Trophies were characters farther along than even the forbidden seven. We know some of them were characters that were in contention to be playable yet cut for whatever reason a Sakurai and his team had at the time. It is not that out there of a theory.

 

[Undrdog]

Lloyd and Collette from "Tales of Symphonia" would be a popular choice and their chibi-like character models and movesets fit the Smash series very well.

But I honestly think Kunio-kun is one of the most deserving characters that graced the Nintendo consoles.

 

[Pachinkosam]

Lloyd and Collette from "Tales of Symphonia" would be a popular choice and their chibi-like character models and movesets fit the Smash series very well.

But I honestly think Kunio-kun is one of the most deserving characters that graced the Nintendo consoles.

no i dont think so?

 

[BKupa666]

Have you checked out Chronobound's theory on Roy and Mewtwo's removals? I'm not going to delve into it too deep, but it speculates that Roy and Mewtwo were cut late in development, as they had individual victory themes at one point, while Doc, Dixie, etc. were removed early.

However, all these characters, whether cut early or late, have data remaining on the disc. One theory I could buy into is that Starfy, along with other possible AT characters, were initially designed for playability, but cut before undergoing any sort of moveset development. In this scenario, they do not leave character data behind, but look as though they could function alongside the existing roster.

This is all deeply theoretical, of course.

 

[Deleted member]

However, there is Assist Trophy data for Ridley as well, and he ended up being a boss.
So if there was character data for the Assists, why isn't there any data in the character folder?

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Pacman > Lloyd

I'm very sorry, but that's how it would be done.

(Smash Flash 2 has Lloyd as playable though, so don't get down)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It is possible some of the Assist Trophies were characters farther along than even the forbidden seven. We know some of them were characters that were in contention to be playable yet cut for whatever reason a Sakurai and his team had at the time. It is not that out there of a theory.

Sakurai did mention some of them he would've liked to see playable. Whether or not they actually were worked on is another story. But Saki, I believe, was one of them. Basically, most AT's could become playable, or atleast the "Fighter" ones like Waluigi, Saki, Kat & Ana, Isaac, Starfy, Lyn, and Samurai Goroh. All legit choices.

@GY: Because there wasn't. Sakurai THOUGHT they could be playable, but decided against it, just making them AT to begin with. Kind of like a popularity poll. If he can't see them fighting, or they're not on his list of major guys, just give them the AT status, since they're still in gameplay and do something.

 

[Diddy Kong]

The problem with this is that didn't stop Falcon from being popular, despite not being as good as Ganondorf. Which already proves your point wrong.

Captain Falcon was always better than Ganondorf.

Doesn't matter. She does the same stuff as the rest of them. She could be a clone too. There's nothing from stopping her from being one at all. Nobody wants her to be, of course. Doesn't mean she can't.

Yes she could. But Waluigi could just be a Luigi clone And StarFox Adventures is basically stopping them for her becoming a clone.

Impa is not better than Sheik as is. She's a secondary character. Sheik is still Zelda. You keep dismissing these facts in an attempt to bring in some character who's just been in a lot of games.

Sheik was just Zelda once. By that logic they could easily let Zelda transform into Tetra. What exactly is stopping them from doing that? That I don't bring it up doesn't mean I don't know.

Just bring in Tingle, problem solved. You don't lose a two-time veteran, and don't REPLACE them, which is the exact reason Impa should not get in over Sheik, and you get a completely unique character instead. Whether or not Link'll get any major changes is unknown. He was barely changed in Melee. If there was no Forward B, he wouldn't have the bow. There's no reason for Zelda to get new moves. She just needs buffs and new properties.

Not everyone LIKES Tingle, and Impa is easily the 'safest' choice as a new character with Sheik's playstyle. She kinda seals the deal for a lot of old time fans, newer ones who got Skyward Sword, and old fans of Sheik by keeping her playstyle in. I see nothing wrong with it at all.

All though I'll shut up about everything once Zelda Wii U or 3DS has Sheik in it, or one of them won't have Impa. Same with FE6's remake if they actually going to do it.

 

[Undrdog]

Tales of Symphonia is the only game of the Tales series to have received so much fan support for a sequel in Japan. Not to mention it's the only exclusive in the series that Nintendo has.

Anyway, was just tossing the idea out there. I'll always stand by Kunio's inclusion though. lol

 

[Starphoenix]

Have you checked out Chronobound's theory on Roy and Mewtwo's removals? I'm not going to delve into it too deep, but it speculates that Roy and Mewtwo were cut late in development, as they had individual victory themes at one point, while Doc, Dixie, etc. were removed early.

However, all these characters, whether cut early or late, have data remaining on the disc. One theory I could buy into is that Starfy, along with other possible AT characters, were initially designed for playability, but cut before undergoing any sort of moveset development. In this scenario, they do not leave character data behind, but look as though they could function alongside the existing roster.

This is all deeply theoretical, of course.

Yes I am aware of it. There were also a lot of missing files in the menu which housed the file listing for character themes.

What you are saying is pretty much what I am getting at. Out of all the Assist Trophies I still believe Saki Amamiya was probably the one closest to being an actual playable character simply because of the way that Sakurai seems to point out how well made he was and how requested he was at that time.

Sakurai did mention some of them he would've liked to see playable. Whether or not they actually were worked on is another story. But Saki, I believe, was one of them. Basically, most AT's could become playable, or atleast the "Fighter" ones like Waluigi, Saki, Kat & Ana, Isaac, Starfy, Lyn, and Samurai Goroh. All legit choices.

@GY: Because there wasn't. Sakurai THOUGHT they could be playable, but decided against it, just making them AT to begin with. Kind of like a popularity poll. If he can't see them fighting, or they're not on his list of major guys, just give them the AT status, since they're still in gameplay and do something.

Right. It should be worth noting that he never said the Assist Trophies were removed because they could not fight, rather they "did not quite make it as a playable character". That phrase is vague and could mean anything. Only the developers know the reasons in which each character was placed as an Assist Trophy.

Assist Trophies allow you to enjoy even more characters who couldn’t quite make it as playable fighters. You may even see some that only the most dedicated fans will recognize, so you’ll have to look forward to them.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Hyper: Wierd theory, popularity poll-based decisions over how fun characters would be playing as, not to mention it would keep on disappointing fans.

Does Sakurai even care about fanbases aside from Sonic's?

 

[Deleted member]

How about, instead of pining towards replacing an established Smash character with another character that's only been physically fit enough to fight in two games (either being a bigger lardass than K. Rool, or little, old, and frail), and think about another character that could be added and NOT replace anyone that would cause an upset?
Like Ghirahim? Or Tingle? Or even Skull Kid because HE'S a recurring character as well? (even if Majora isn't)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Captain Falcon was always better than Ganondorf.

Not popularity-wise. Which is the thing. Impa has nothing on Sheik in that department.

Yes she could. But Waluigi could just be a Luigi clone And StarFox Adventures is basically stopping them for her becoming a clone.

Command was the last game, remember?

Sheik was just Zelda once. By that logic they could easily let Zelda transform into Tetra. What exactly is stopping them from doing that? That I don't bring it up doesn't mean I don't know.

And Impa was a regular old women, and not a Sheikah till OOT rolled around. SS is the only other time she's a Sheikah. Also, let's note that Sheik is more notable due to how ridiculously popular OOT is. Impa? She does not nearly as much in the overall game. She's more important, although not as much as Zelda herself.

Not everyone LIKES Tingle, and Impa is easily the 'safest' choice as a new character with Sheik's playstyle. She kinda seals the deal for a lot of old time fans, newer ones who got Skyward Sword, and old fans of Sheik by keeping her playstyle in. I see nothing wrong with it at all.

Replacing a veteran with a clone is actually the most unsafe option possible. Tingle is actually getting quite a lot of love. You're better off with Ghirahim than Impa. Atleast he's popular, and doesn't REPLACE a two-time veteran. There's a lot wrong with it. It's unbelievable, illogical, and would only make people angry instead. It's the least popular decision possible.

All though I'll shut up about everything once Zelda Wii U or 3DS has Sheik in it, or one of them won't have Impa. Same with FE6's remake if they actually going to do it.

OOT 3D is on the 3DS. You were already proven right. Doesn't matter whether Impa's there or not. By your own criteria, Sheik is relevant. Likewise, Impa is not unique over Sheik, thus, putting her in wouldn't even follow Sakurai's criteria. Nobody's agreeing with you on this because it's not even in a realistic realm of possibility. If Sheik has a chance of leaving, it would've been in Brawl. She's here to stay. Jigglypuff might not have made it in, but clearly she was important enough to SMASH itself. Which is kind of a key factor that too many people don't realize.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Star: So this could maybe mean a hinting promise to make some deserving characters as playables in next SSB-games, maybe?

 

[yani_]

I'd like to see Tingle under his own series, with another newcomer to the Zelda series. Ghirahim is my preference.

 

[Starphoenix]

Star: So this could maybe mean a hinting promise to make some deserving characters as playables in next SSB-games, maybe?

Of course I cannot say positively what will and will not be the case, but it would seem logical to think so. Sakurai will probably take notice that four of the series represented by Assist Trophies have had new games since Brawl.

 

[Diddy Kong]

How about, instead of pining towards replacing an established Smash character with another character that's only been physically fit enough to fight in two games (either being a bigger lardass than K. Rool, or little, old, and frail), and think about another character that could be added and NOT replace anyone that would cause an upset?
Like Ghirahim? Or Tingle? Or even Skull Kid because HE'S a recurring character as well? (even if Majora isn't)

Because I frankly don't think they'll add in any, if many new Zelda characters at all actually. Why? Lots of them need some serious revamping. Link needs to function properly after 3 (or at least 2) of serious suckyness, Zelda needs to be balanced out, Ganondorf needs a whole new moveset at best, Toon Link probably wants some own moves... It's not an easy project I say.

So having Impa instead of Sheik and revamping the others is not so bad of an idea I'd say if you see what it'd bring.

 

[Deleted member]

Anyway this has probably been mentioned many times before but is anyone else hoping that Falco gets an Arwing as his Final Smash instead of that crappy Landmaster?

I've brought it up a few times. I fully support this idea. It's not like he can't change a few moves to lugified clones.

We're talking the man that make Kamen Rider Falcon, and by association, Captain Ganon.

He could make Ridley a clone of JIGGLYPUFF if he wanted to.

To be fair, it was somewhat practical since Ganondorf had similar body structure to Captain Falcon. Ridley being a Jigglypuff clone is possible, but miniscule.

Still doubting Starfy would be a joke character since I think it would be much more fitting for a retro character or Tingle.

Doc as alt costume

Pichu as a Pikachu model swap

Young Link returns

Mewtwo returns

Roy returns

Everyone wins! But Toon Link...

Or have Young Link Cameo in an OoT/MM3DS level?

I'd agree with that.

I feel at this point, NO ONE should be replaced. Only added.

I agree. I could even write an essay on why no Nintendo Brawl vets should be cut.

Regarding Assist Trophies possibly being planned for SSB4; I'm not really going to read much into Starfy being in the Fighter Related Category. It could mean something, it could not. But trying to see if Starfy was planned to get in because of it is pure speculation. The only AT character that I think was seriously considered for playable status was Saki Amamiya.

 

[Shorts]

It is possible some of the Assist Trophies were characters farther along than even the forbidden seven. We know some of them were characters that were in contention to be playable yet cut for whatever reason a Sakurai and his team had at the time. It is not that out there of a theory.

I find it funny that Ridley was rumored to be an AT, and ended up a boss, but when asked about him being playable Sakurai almost sounded suprised!

Have you checked out Chronobound's theory on Roy and Mewtwo's removals? I'm not going to delve into it too deep, but it speculates that Roy and Mewtwo were cut late in development, as they had individual victory themes at one point, while Doc, Dixie, etc. were removed early.

Not to be silly but, if you look at Mewtwo's Trophy, and then look at Dixie's I think you can notice a difference in detail. I would also like to point out once more that Dixie probably didn't make it all that far into development considering if you look at her fur on her hands, they aren't blended well like DK and Diddy's. It looks like a weird costume. We know that DK and Diddy both had this fur earlier in development. So, Dixie probably never made it past that stage in terms of development.

 

[Deleted member]

I mean, if we got rid of characters due to current irrelevency, here's how the Brawl characters would fare:

1. Mario: Stays.
2. Luigi: Stays.
3. Peach: Stays.
4. Bowser: Stays.

5. Donkey Kong: Stays.
6. Diddy Kong: Stays.

7. Link: Stays.
8. Zelda: Stays. Sheik: Stays. OoT3D.
9. Ganondorf: Stays. OoT3D.
10. Toon Link: Stays. Spirit Tracks.

11. Samus: Stays. Zero Suit Samus: Stays. Other M.

12. Yoshi: Stays.

13. Kirby: Stays.
14. Meta Knight: Stays.
15. King Dedede: Stays.

16. Fox: Stays.
17. Falco: Stays.
18. Wolf: Stays.

19. Pikachu: Stays.
20. Jigglypuff: Stays. Pokemon X Nobunaga's Ambition.
21. Pokemon Trainer: Stays. HG/SS.
22. Lucario: Stays. B/W.

23. Captain Falcon: Cut. No F-Zero games in quite a while.

24. Ness: Cut. Only relevant in Smash now.
25. Lucas: Cut. Nothing new for Mother.

26. Ice Climbers: Cut. Only one game from the past.

27. Marth: Stays. The remakes of his old games.
28. Ike: Cut. Hasn't been in a game after Brawl.

29. Mr. Game & Watch: Stays. Cameo in Donkey Kong Country Returns.

30. Pit: Stays.

31. Wario: Stays.

32. Olimar: Cut. No Pikmin title since Brawl. And ports don't count. (remakes do, but not ports)

33. R.O.B.: Cut. Hasn't made any recent cameo from what I know.

34. Snake: Stays.

35. Sonic: Stays.

 

[Starphoenix]

The way I see it is like this. These will probably be the likeliest five series (with a playable character) for the next game.

Golden Sun
Punch Out!!
Sin and Punishment
Legendary Starfy
Xenoblade

Non-playable franchises I could see represented by stages exclusively would be Rhythm Heaven, Famicom Wars and Custom Robo.

I find it funny that Ridley was rumored to be an AT, and ended up a boss, but when asked about him being playable Sakurai almost sounded surprised!

From what I have been seeing from the Japanese side of things Metroid is not a popular series over there. It would not be completely far fetched for me to believe that he was not as requested as we think back at that time.

 

[Deleted member]

Because I frankly don't think they'll add in any, if many new Zelda characters at all actually. Why? Lots of them need some serious revamping. Link needs to function properly after 3 (or at least 2) of serious suckyness, Zelda needs to be balanced out, Ganondorf needs a whole new moveset at best, Toon Link probably wants some own moves... It's not an easy project I say.

So having Impa instead of Sheik and revamping the others is not so bad of an idea I'd say if you see what it'd bring.

You don't think they'll add any, but you are adamant that Impa will replace Sheik.
Contradiction much?

 

[Deleted member]

The way I see it is like this. These will probably be the likeliest five series (with a playable character) for the next game.

Famicon Wars
Punch Out!!
Sin and Punishment
Nazo no Murasame-Jo
Xenoblade

Fixed.
10chars.

Starfy is pretty much a no-go.
Golden Sun has done poor in Japan increasingly by game. (The first one not even making 1 million sales)
Famicon Wars is a very large series yet to represented.
Sakurai has shown interest in Takamaru, and Takamaru himself has been coming back in ways that for some reason exclude a sequel to his old game.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Not popularity-wise. Which is the thing. Impa has nothing on Sheik in that

Impa can easily be as popular if she comes into Smash. With extra points of being relevant and re-occuring.

Command was the last game, remember?

Yes, but Adventures was where she hails from.

And Impa was a regular old women, and not a Sheikah till OOT rolled around. SS is the only other time she's a Sheikah. Also, let's note that Sheik is more notable due to how ridiculously popular OOT is. Impa? She does not nearly as much in the overall game. She's more important, although not as much as Zelda herself.

Sheik has no other role to speak of besides the little she did in OoT. Story telling and teaching you to warp with music. Impa was also a Sheikah in OoT, and mentioned as one in TP. Adding up all those points and her striking similarity to Sheik, it's likely Impa will fill in the role in the series as Sheik would from now on. Why shouldn't that be in Smash as basically nothing would change except how the Sheikah character looks this time? It's the safest bet by far.

Replacing a veteran with a clone is actually the most unsafe option possible. Tingle is actually getting quite a lot of love. You're better off with Ghirahim than Impa. Atleast he's popular, and doesn't REPLACE a two-time veteran. There's a lot wrong with it. It's unbelievable, illogical, and would only make people angry instead. It's the least popular decision possible.

OOT 3D is on the 3DS. You were already proven right. Doesn't matter whether Impa's there or not. By your own criteria, Sheik is relevant. Likewise, Impa is not unique over Sheik, thus, putting her in wouldn't even follow Sakurai's criteria. Nobody's agreeing with you on this because it's not even in a realistic realm of possibility. If Sheik has a chance of leaving, it would've been in Brawl. She's here to stay. Jigglypuff might not have made it in, but clearly she was important enough to SMASH itself. Which is kind of a key factor that too many people don't realize.[/QUOTE]

 

[Arcadenik]

I'd like to see Tingle under his own series, with another newcomer to the Zelda series. Ghirahim is my preference.

Agreed... as indicated by a Rupee instead of the Triforce.

 

[Deleted member]

You don't think they'll add any, but you are adamant that Impa will replace Sheik.
Contradiction much?

I don't think he was ever suggesting to add, just replace. Needless to say, I think Zelda is fine with the four it has.

 

[ChronoBound]

The way I see it is like this. These will probably be the likeliest five series (with a playable character) for the next game.

Golden Sun
Punch Out!!
Sin and Punishment
Legendary Starfy
Xenoblade

That is my guess too. However, you should definitely throw the Wii series (Miis) there as well.

 

[Starphoenix]

Fixed.
10chars.

Sorry, I do not feel that Takamaru is that likely. At all.

That is my guess too. However, you should definitely throw the Wii series (Miis) there as well.

Their weird. I was tempted to edit that in there, but I am not sure if they would be as much of a "series" as they would be a "feature" like in every other title Miis appear in. Does that make any sense at all? If not please tell me and I'll try explaining myself better.

 

[Deleted member]

And why not?
1. Sakurai has shown interest in him.
2. He's had some recent roles in games. (Important NPC in Captain Rainbow, guest character in Samurai Warriors 3 with a mode dedicated to him)
3. He's got heavy Japanese support. (Which matters more than American support, in all honesty.)

 

[Deleted member]

I think the five most likely franchises to finally get in are Punch-Out!!, Golden Sun, Sin & Punishment, The Legendary Starfy, and Mii. For retro series, I'd say that Nazo No Murasame Jo is our best bet.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Fixed.
10chars.

Starfy is pretty much a no-go.
Golden Sun has done poor in Japan increasingly by game. (The first one not even making 1 million sales)
Famicon Wars is a very large series yet to represented.
Sakurai has shown interest in Takamaru, and Takamaru himself has been coming back in ways that for some reason exclude a sequel to his old game.

One quick question. Why do you think Starfy is a no-go? What's the reason?