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New PR System, all states applicable!

Sensei Seibrik

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 19, 2006
Messages
6,294
Location
My Mind's Eye
The following is a new system that is to be implimented for the next 2010 Fl. Power Rankings.

It will eliminate the need for "Panelists".

However it will still be ran by me, and Tommy G (who will be living with me, yay) and needs what will be called "Tournament Supervisors".

Every tournament that wants to be considered for the next PR MUST have a pre-determined Tournament Supervisor. This supervisor can change from tourny to tourny and region to region. People I will trust to do this job off hand would be: for CFL, GDX. for Wfl, Halz. For nfl, Masky/Gmoney. for sfl, Myself.

The Supervisor's Responsibilities:

1. The minute the bracket is complete: Save the data. I don't care how you do this. You could walk up to the computer with a flash drive, save the bracket, do the data collecting later, or walk up to it with a pen and paper and start recording right there.

2. PowerRanking Match Recording: Must supervise any and all "PR Matches" (will be defined later) to ensure it's legitimacy, and collect the data.

3. After all data is collected, report it to either me or Tommy G, who will then compile all the data together.


What We are looking for:

The new system will work like this. It is entirely dependant on the current PR.

Random player A Meets ESAM in brackets. Random player A beats ESAMin the set. That random player will collect 5 points for himself. This will be seen later when the Supervisor checks the brackets, this is the data he needs to be looking for.

Essentially:

Beat a player on the current PR, collect a certain amount of points based on where on the PR's he is.

The point allocation is as follows:

1. 8 points
2. 7 points
3. 6 points
4. 5 points
5. 4 points
6. 3 points
7. 2 points
8. 1 point

Any player who loses to someone NOT on the current PR, will lose one point.
You CANNOT go below 0 points. So by this logic, you must first gain points in order to lose them. Everyone starts the period with 0 points, even me. :)

So at first, the Supervisors will only be looking at the brackets recording data about players who currently have points. When a PR player loses to someone not on the PR, that person is now added to the list of players to collect data for, since he just became a candidate for the next PR by gaining points for his victory.

The best way to gain points? Go to more tournies of course. (which would be the best way to get on the PR's anyway.)

How money matches, or "PR matches", will contribute:

Money matches are money matches. No difference, no contribution to the PR at all.

PR matches on the other hand is much like a money match. First and formost, if you want it to be considered for the PR point system, you must first before starting the match, call the supervisor over to witness. If the supervisor is not there before hand, it does not count.

The match MUST be a money match, and MUST be for AT LEAST the amount of the entry fee for singles of the current tourny you're at. For example, to enter the singles bracket it is 10 dollars like at most tournies, then to have the match considered for the PR, there is a 10 dollar minimum to the match. While you may not have as much to gain from this as a normal tourny, you stand as much to LOSE from losing, so it will ensure both players try as hard as they would in an actual bracket match, thus being eligable for the PR's consideration.

Standard rules apply for PR' matches as they would for a normal bracket match. Best of 3, unless otherwise agreed. Point value is the same. So if you beat ESAMin a PR match, you will gain 5 points. If a person with points LOSES to a player not on the PR in a PR match, he loses 1 point just the same as a normal bracket match.


And with that, at the end of the period, the PR list will be made by order of points, 1-10. Honorable mentions will be declared as they will be in-argueable.

And that PR list will be used to create the next one as well.

Consistancy will show, and things will forever be clear to all.


This should be interesting. :)

 

DC

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 30, 2001
Messages
55
First point of discussion... why are you in charge of this?

/instigation
 

Curlz

Smash Lord
Joined
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Lafayette, LA
So if a person beats someone not on the PR, they still don't gain points? Even if someone of lower caliber beats someone of a higher caliber that isn't on the PR still no points are gained?
 

Purple

Hi guys!
Joined
Mar 26, 2009
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Location
Duluth, Georgia
if a person loses to someone higher to them. Is there no penalty? I can see why there's no reward in PR points for beating someone off the PR. But the lower ranking person has nothing to lose (except money of course, and for people with high paying jobs that's not a big deal), and the pr has all to lose. (once again except for money)

edit: nevermind just read curlz ^^^
 

ama(m/t)

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 30, 2007
Messages
1,174
Any player who loses to someone NOT on the current PR, will lose one point.
 

Saki-

Reset Project
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PR matches on the other hand is much like a money match. First and formost, if you want it to be considered for the PR point system, you must first before starting the match, call the supervisor over to witness. If the supervisor is not there before hand, it does not count.

The match MUST be a money match, and MUST be for AT LEAST the amount of the entry fee for singles of the current tourny you're at. For example, to enter the singles bracket it is 10 dollars like at most tournies, then to have the match considered for the PR, there is a 10 dollar minimum to the match. While you may not have as much to gain from this as a normal tourny, you stand as much to LOSE from losing, so it will ensure both players try as hard as they would in an actual bracket match, thus being eligable for the PR's consideration.

Standard rules apply for PR' matches as they would for a normal bracket match. Best of 3, unless otherwise agreed. Point value is the same. So if you beat ESAMin a PR match, you will gain 5 points. If a person with points LOSES to a player not on the PR in a PR match, he loses 1 point just the same as a normal bracket match.


And with that, at the end of the period, the PR list will be made by order of points, 1-10. Honorable mentions will be declared as they will be in-argueable.

And that PR list will be used to create the next one as well.

Consistancy will show, and things will forever be clear to all.


This should be interesting. :)


O.o wow really? I mean, XP that's a big amount of money to put on the line, just to get a spot on the pr.
 

DC

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 30, 2001
Messages
55
Yeah you better be rich as **** if you wanna be on the PR.
 

Galuuda

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
479
Location
Ocala, Fl
Seibrik, not actually saying that you are doing this for that certain reason....but it honestly looks like you're just doing this for profit, rofl. That's just from my perspective. I'd kinda change that point of the post....just sayin'. There are other ways to go about it.
 

bladeofapollo

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
Messages
980
Location
Orlando
First of all, Seibrik, I want to congratulate you on this well thought out system. At the very least, it's very streamlined and is a good attempt at standardizing/objectifying the PR's.

However, I would like to posit some questions/concerns with this system.
1. Your starting PR's are very important. If there is to be a baseline for this system, it has to be the current PR's and they have to be RIGHT. It would stink if someone who deserved to be on there now had to fight for it.
2. This might be a lot to keep track of. There are gonna be a lot of tournaments and you have to make sure all the appropriate ones are recorded. Also, how will "random house tournie #7" factor into the rankings? Will there be a minimum entry fee to be considered? What if no Supervisor is at an important tournament?
3. How are final point counts going to affect the final outcome? Will the players simply be ordered 1-10 based on their point values? Or will some other factor play in (win-loss records, current standing, size of tournament)?
4. Whoever makes it to Winner's Finals in a tournament will probably have fewer net points than the person who comes through losers, just pointing that out. Though Grand Finals will probably push either player over the edge. And will both sets of Grand Finals count if the Loser's Finals person wins the first set?
5. Will contenders be allowed to see these numbers at any time? Or will this info be kept private until the new rankings come up?

I know that was lengthy, just consider it.

What about low tiers?
What about them? Nobody was forced to play a character. If you win w/ your low tier: awesome. If you lose: no johns.

what about melee?
If melee wants to adopt this, they will. However it would be best to contain this idea to one game alone just in case it doesn't go well. We're not gonna immediately reform the world, we need to run some tests first.

So if a person beats someone not on the PR, they still don't gain points? Even if someone of lower caliber beats someone of a higher caliber that isn't on the PR still no points are gained?
As of now, not immediately. Remember that the PR's are the top 10 in the state/area. If a new person makes their way onto the PR's, and old person has to be knocked off.

Looks like this topic won't be getting a lot of replies :(
I would not have thought of this unless you'd said it. haha
 

DC

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 30, 2001
Messages
55
Yeah honestly Seibrik you probably should have given this a test run for like a month or two before implementing it. In fact... it's not too late for that, either.

bladeofapollo pretty much said everything else I wanted to say. It's a good idea but it seems like one of those "works on paper, not so much in practice" type things.
 

DFEAR

Smash Hero
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cant wait to PR money match people...nothing to lose really but gain to me.
 

M@v

Subarashii!
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Oct 13, 2007
Messages
10,678
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
This system is very interesting. It makes it so bias or personal opinions don't affect ranking decisions.

Money matches will be very high stakes as well.
 

Sensei Seibrik

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 19, 2006
Messages
6,294
Location
My Mind's Eye
First of all, Seibrik, I want to congratulate you on this well thought out system. At the very least, it's very streamlined and is a good attempt at standardizing/objectifying the PR's.

However, I would like to posit some questions/concerns with this system.
1. Your starting PR's are very important. If there is to be a baseline for this system, it has to be the current PR's and they have to be RIGHT. It would stink if someone who deserved to be on there now had to fight for it.
2. This might be a lot to keep track of. There are gonna be a lot of tournaments and you have to make sure all the appropriate ones are recorded. Also, how will "random house tournie #7" factor into the rankings? Will there be a minimum entry fee to be considered? What if no Supervisor is at an important tournament?
3. How are final point counts going to affect the final outcome? Will the players simply be ordered 1-10 based on their point values? Or will some other factor play in (win-loss records, current standing, size of tournament)?
4. Whoever makes it to Winner's Finals in a tournament will probably have fewer net points than the person who comes through losers, just pointing that out. Though Grand Finals will probably push either player over the edge. And will both sets of Grand Finals count if the Loser's Finals person wins the first set?
5. Will contenders be allowed to see these numbers at any time? Or will this info be kept private until the new rankings come up?

I know that was lengthy, just consider it.


What about them? Nobody was forced to play a character. If you win w/ your low tier: awesome. If you lose: no johns.


If melee wants to adopt this, they will. However it would be best to contain this idea to one game alone just in case it doesn't go well. We're not gonna immediately reform the world, we need to run some tests first.


As of now, not immediately. Remember that the PR's are the top 10 in the state/area. If a new person makes their way onto the PR's, and old person has to be knocked off.



I would not have thought of this unless you'd said it. haha
1. the starting PR's can be found in the PR thread for florida, and so far i havn't seen any disagreements over it.



2. I'm going to be opening an excel spreadsheet sometime this week. So far, to my knowledge, there has only been one tourny this season, where I lost first round to nickriddle (it was single elim, sucks, but he still one a set off me fair). So with this new system, that win gives him 8 points. He also beat chaz in the same tourny, giving him 2 more points. His total is now 10.

Chaz beat me in a PR match as well, i was using snake, but the only way he was going to do a MM vs me for 5 bucks was if it was counted for PR. I wanted the money/thought i could win, so i ran that risk, he won, and got 8 points, and 5 bucks.

This isn't a way for ME to make money. remember, people can gain points by beating other people on the PR in PR matches, i don't even have to be included. So my intentions are just. The only real thing i hope this encourages more is traveling between regions, but that's about it. (more tournies people go to with more PR players, the more points they can earn potentially)


3. I was thinking about this alot, and i think the fairest way would be to use the points and the list the comes off of it as a STARTING point in making the next PR, so we can have a clear cut list of the potential top 10 players. the big problem we had recently was that we had no idea who to put for 9. and 10. cause there were TOO many players that played TOO inconsistantly. This will, at the very least, clear things up and eliminate that issue.

4. I thought about the person who goes to losers gaining more points, but in the end, the one in winners ISN't losing points ever, and can still gain a good chunk of points providing the person getting to finals is a high PR player.

something i'm thinking of now:

should the PR list change on going with the points allocated each week?

For example:

current FL PR=

me
hrnut
co18
esam
riddle
gdx
chaz
halberd



but if we allocate the points as of now we have:

Nickriddle
chaz
me
hrnut
co18
esam
gdx
halberd




this makes it so that the PR become an on going process, and the point value per player change as they do better and better through the period. think of the PR like a standings. the better someone has been doing, the more they are worth. the current PR just being a starting point for values and such.

this makes it so that if nickriddle goes to losers, wrecks people, and meets me in grandfinals, and i win the tourny, shouldn't i get a few more than just 4 points? he gets all the points he would get from wrecking through losers, making him of higher value (harder to beat) so a win over him should count for more.


Then if we do this the next question we have to adress:

do points get allocated simply at the end of a tourny, or distributed with each win/loss?

Let's say i was number 1 on the current list, and right behind me was riddle in the number 2 spot.
he wrecks through losers, which would give him just enough points to be number 1.

if we allocate the points AFTER each tourny, and i win the set, i get 7 points.

if we allocate the points DURING the tourny, and i win the set, i get 8 points.

small difference but it could add up if the difference wasn't between first and 2nd, but between first and 5th, and 5th got enough points to become the new first or 2nd...


hope this isn't too confusing.


5. if i get this going, i'll update the Spreadsheet with the info people give me weekly, with a link in the PR thread so people can keep track of how they're doing, and know whether or not they need to do some PR matches and such.




hope i addressed concerns/brought up new points.


thoughts?
 

GA Peach

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truthfully, i don't know why Smash just doesn't do rankings like any other game. Make a starting PR, then just do RanBats every so often. works for anything else.
 

bladeofapollo

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
Messages
980
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Orlando
Then if we do this the next question we have to adress:

do points get allocated simply at the end of a tourny, or distributed with each win/loss?

Let's say i was number 1 on the current list, and right behind me was riddle in the number 2 spot.
he wrecks through losers, which would give him just enough points to be number 1.

if we allocate the points AFTER each tourny, and i win the set, i get 7 points.

if we allocate the points DURING the tourny, and i win the set, i get 8 points.
This is a very good point that I will run some calculations for as soon as finals are over because it COULD become extremely relevant.
 

GA Peach

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what's Ranbats?
RanBat stands for "Ranking Battle", and is commonly practiced in non-Smash fighting games. a lot of people on SRK use them to rank their players. i mean, it is similar to what you want to do, but it would be more concise. the best way would be to just start fresh with it, which people may not like, but it would work out the best. scrap your current PR, and run a couple of RanBats. come up with a balanced point system, and you have your results. instead of a panel meeting and discussing, you would have your rankings based on the results of the RanBats. it makes it so that if someone doesn't show up, it can really hurt their ranking. lol, it causes people to swallow a lot of pride, as well, by either "putting up or shutting up". instead of a panel saying, "oh, well, we know this guy is good, he just didn't perform well at said tourney(ies), so we'll still give him a decent rank." it would be strictly based on results, and if they performed poorly, they would just have to work harder next time.
 

GA Peach

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as far as i know, it doesn't hold too much weight. the RanBats only rank in-state players, from what i know. i'll ask people i know if they have a system for beating notable OOS players.
 

2nLio

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 18, 2009
Messages
359
Location
Gainesville, FloDa
We should just have a tournament with some sort gigantic pool in which everyone that shows up plays everyone (two matches not a set). every win is 1 point.

at the end, the person with the highest score takes a big chunk of the pot and takes top spot in the PRs. 2nd place takes a smaller % of the pot and 2nd spot on the PRs etc etc.

This can be done once every two months (once a month even) and only the people that show up will get a chance to be in the PRs. (if you cant show, sucks for you). and every month, the list gets wiped to form a new list.

Ties will be broken by doing sets between the two players that tied.

Location will be somewhere in the middle of florida where everyone has a reasonable distance to travel.

screw consistency and having to go to a bunch of tourneys to prove youre good. This should definitely give a much more accurate result and ppl wont have to be wasting 10 bucks just to be on the PRs.

Its done in soccer. It can definitely be done with smash :toonlink:
 

GA Peach

Smash Lord
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If ran efficiently with 25 TVs it would take like 13 - 14 hours
...you do realize that a 50+ man round robin is a horrible idea, right?

also, 2nLio, you wouldn't be spending 10 bucks to just be on the PR. it would be run with a normal pot split and everything, but the RanBat point system would be implemented based on your placing.
 
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