New Method of Momentum Canceling

[Sudai]

I always FAir > BAir just because. Never tested it, dunno if it'd be better than FAir > ROFLCopter..but iunno. I think someone tested it a while back but I don't remember.

 

[GwJ]

Because Bair is worse than Fair and Fair + Side B. It just isn't as good.

 

[Sudai]

Mmm, yeah. BAir alone is obviously worse. Slower and its momentum effects aren't there during hitstun. Still think someone should test FAir > BAir since we're already at it. Unless someone else tested it before and someone feels like digging out the info.

 

[Darth Waffles]

FAir > ROFLCopter

Motion to rename "ROFLcopter"' to "WAFFLEcopter," at least when referring to using it to recover/momentum cancel (even if you kill yourself in the process)

 

[TEECO]

I will now call ROB's side B, the WAFFLEcopter.
Im diggin it.

 

[Tin Man]

good **** guys, its just, this wont really work out on final D T_T

 

[GwJ]

This should work anywhere, because you're always gonna have time to Fair, and the Side-B just helps you further. Always try and get the Side-B as it will always help you. It even helps in dittos because the Side-B reflects any lazer follow-up. Ask Darth waffles, he did it in a friendly the other day.

 

[Tin Man]

in that video on youtube, i know u SDI, but are u DIing before u get hit?

 

[GwJ]

Yea, I was tilting the analog stick up so that I was hit in the diagonal corner.

 

[Tin Man]

ok then, DI up, smash DI fair, fast fall, then Waffle Copter.

last question, when u fair to fast fall, what do u use to fast fall? C stick or control stick?

 

[Overswarm]

Err... I think you might be mistaken about the side-b changing momentum. Only your first attack cancels momentum. I think the side-b just moves you.

 

[Sudai]

Moving ROB is changing ROB's momentum, even if it's only temporary.

 

[GwJ]

And that little move is enough to help ROB survive attacks that would normally kill him if he just Faired.

 

[Darth Waffles]

Finished what I started with this
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8032070&postcount=3765

Fast-falling the Dair is just plain easiest if you want to avoid getting star-KO'ed. Remember, FF'ed fair to wafflecopter is best for horizontal knockback, but ffing the Dair is best for vertical knockback. I actually got as much with fair>Bair and I think Upair>bair (might have been Upair>fair) but they're a lot harder because you have to nail two aerials as soon as possible plus get both fastfalls in (during the aerial but not in-between). Dair>mash control stick down to ensure fastfalling>recover back down is best.

Someone prove me wrong- Dair feels "awkward" and it just looks like I should be able to get an outright answer instead of having three ways to survive all tie when I do them perfectly. Until I tried it, I always watched people "accidentally" do Dairs and think how slow and bad it was. Thoughts?

 

[Overswarm]

It's really not that complicated. All moves have the same exact momentum cancel on a character from the moment the hitbox comes out. Whatever hitbox comes out fastest = best move to use in ALL directions.

 

[SuSa]

Overswarm, this is why you are a scrub.

THE HITBOX DOES NOT MATTER it's how fast the move finishes.

I suggest you read Swordgards thread again. After all, you "approved" it but you don't even know the information it contains?

 

[Darth Waffles]

Close, but SuSa's not completely right either. Airdodging for ROB (when taking into account the frames where you can't do anything) ends 8 frames *earlier* than fair, ROB's fastest-ending aerial. Fair works better.

Dair is actually the SLOWEST aerial to end (Nair does nothing helpful anyway), but it, not to mention Upair, gives you more time to fastfall during the aerial. Fair comes out fastest and finishes the fastest but doesn't save you at all. It's only good for getting the Side B out to save you horizontally.

Try testing it- you can fit a bunch of fairs in but they barely slow you down.

 

[stingers]

Airdodging is bad because you can't fastfall during it.

Dair only looks the best because when you C stick down, you fastfall as well.

 

[SuSa]

Airdodging is not an aerial... that's what you didn't understand.

Dodge != Aerial

We were speaking of aerials. (I said move, should've said aerial)

Also you can FF starting frame 1 of an aerial - and after it (IIRC, if not just use fair again....if buffered there is no loss of frames)

EDIT:
PS: That little prop-up of dair can kill you if you are still in (I forget what part) of hitstun.

On second thought, why am I helping ROB mains learn to DI? No, by all means keep doing it wrong. Makes my job of killing you easier.

@Stingers
It's not too hard to DI + mash down quickly. :x

 

[Darth Waffles]

it's how fast the move finishes.

I guess I took this and assumed you meant to include airdodge. GnW's Nair as an example, finishes faster than his airdodge, which is why it's better to get the bucket out anyway

Anyway, interpretations aside, Dair works surprisingly well until I'm proven wrong.

edit: gah, ninja'd by the edit

 

[stingers]

Airdodging counts as an "aerial" for momtentum cancelling purposes. IE, if you have a momentum stopper like GaW's Bucket, Airdodge to Bucket works.

It's just the fact you can't fastfall while airdodging makes it the worst option for most characters. And even for characters with momentum cancellers, they often have faster aerials (Pika's Uair > Airdodge, GaWs Nair > Airdodge are 2 examples off the top of my head)

 

[SuSa]

I suggest you all (yes you too Overswarm) read this thread:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=221969

EDIT:
Stingers... no.... for MC purposes, you want to be able to FASTFALL. Yes, airdodging can work if it ends faster and you don't need to fastfall, but Swordgard told me fastfalling (strangely) affects horizontal knockback. So even if airdodge is faster, an aerial would still work better. (Read the Snake boards. "How to DI" topic made by myself)

 

[infomon]

Stingers... no.... for MC purposes, you want to be able to FASTFALL. Yes, airdodging can work if it ends faster and you don't need to fastfall, but Swordgard told me fastfalling (strangely) affects horizontal knockback. So even if airdodge is faster, an aerial would still work better. (Read the Snake boards. "How to DI" topic made by myself)

I don't believe Swordgard's assertion. I'll check your Snake topic tmrw when I have the chance.

Edit: I haven't read this whole thread yet, but just sayin'.... airdodges are definitely sometimes better than using an aerial. For example, you can start an airdodge sooner in hitstun than you can start an aerial. This means for characters whose fastest aerial (and yes that means fewest-number-of-frames-to-completion lol) has a similar # of frames to their airdodge, the airdodge might finish earlier thus allowing them to momentum-cancel with stuff (jumps / specials) earlier than with an aerial; if you're not near the vertical killzone, this is deffo better. Furthermore, the initial frames of an airdodge can be cancalled with an item-throw, which ends super-fast, so you can throw an item if you have one (*cough*gyro*cough*) to escape hitstun.

Tho SuSa prolly knew that, just thought I'd mention it.....

 

[stingers]

susa, thats what i said. lol

 

[SuSa]

I believe it. Think of how a curve works.

____ < knockback

If you fastfall, you make more of a curve.

(This is talking about pure horizontal knockback. Obviously if you are hit up a bit or down a bit its lessened. But to a certain degree, it does work)

EDIT:
Stingers, this is what I said "no" to:

Airdodging counts as an "aerial" for momtentum cancelling purposes.

No, it doesn't count.

 

[Darth Waffles]

I'd like other people to try out these things themselves, but my results are consistent. FF'ed fair>side B is best for horizontal knockback (simple enough, comes out fastest, and the side B startup lag is justified by the "oomph" it gives ROB back to the stage which acts as a ROB "bucket brake". For vertical, Dair and Fair>Bair if you fast-fall them perfectly work best.

I guess I'm not sure what you're disagreeing about, but try it in training mode and see if you get something different.

And Infzy, I nearly cried when I saw your 2nd video on DI'ing/momentum cancelling right after I presented the Wafflecopter to the boards. I would have felt so bad if you had discovered it about 6 months before anyone else did

 

[stingers]

yes it does...if you airdodge and do a move that cancels your momentum, then the momentum cancel works.

thats all i was saying.

 

[SuSa]

Yes stingers, that does work. But it's not really for MC purposes.

Well, actually........ -_- it gets a bit more complicated.

It's not your best MC purpose, and if it is, it's not your best "You will survive" thing.... (thinking Ike airdodge to side-B. I think that's his best MC, but he'll just SD.... lol)

 

[stingers]

like i said its only useful for ppl who have a momentum cancel...

 

[infomon]

I believe it. Think of how a curve works.

____ < knockback

If you fastfall, you make more of a curve.

(This is talking about pure horizontal knockback. Obviously if you are hit up a bit or down a bit its lessened. But to a certain degree, it does work)

Sure, but knockback isn't a curve. That's what I'd thought, too. But in Brawl, the x and y components of knockback are totally separate. Each character has a parameter for each of their horizontal and vertical drift speeds. When you're flying away in knockback, there's a horizontal component and a vertical component (and each of your drift speeds helps resist your knockback in each). Fastfalling just increases your vertical drift towards the stage, thus helping you. It doesn't affect the amount of horizontal knockback. The curve is a lie

I'd like other people to try out these things themselves, but my results are consistent. FF'ed fair>side B is best for horizontal knockback (simple enough, comes out fastest, and the side B startup lag is justified by the "oomph" it gives ROB back to the stage which acts as a ROB "bucket brake". For vertical, Dair and Fair>Bair if you fast-fall them perfectly work best.

I'll go test it again tmrw, but I've already tested this stuff lots of times lol
I'm not sure what you're saying. When you're in hitstun, you can either aerial, airdodge, or item-throw, (or Z-air but that counts as airdodge ). Only an aerial can be fastfalled, but anyway... doing another aerial after that is useless. Aerials that normally have momentum-changing properties, don't affect momentum while you're in knockback (*). So I don't know why you're suggesting Fair>Bair, ever.

Side-B could help, idk. How many frames is ROB's Fair vs. his airdodge? The airdodge comes out earlier, in hitstun, by an amount proportional to the amount of knockback, so it's possible that for extreme-distance knockback, using an airdodge is better whereas for lower-knockback attacks, using Fair is better. Assuming you don't also need the early fastfall, of course.

If you're only worried about the ceiling killzone, then ANY of your aerials are just as good; Dair, Fair, Uair, Bair.... as long as you start the fastfall on the very same frame that you input the aerial (**), you're doing it optimally. I think Nair is naturally at a 1-frame disadvantage here lol, and that's only if you're frame-perfect anyway.

And Infzy, I nearly cried when I saw your 2nd video on DI'ing/momentum cancelling right after I presented the Wafflecopter to the boards. I would have felt so bad if you had discovered it about 6 months before anyone else did

lol, wth is wafflecoptering?? it's the greatest name for an AT ever btw

Yes stingers, that does work. But it's not really for MC purposes.

Well, actually........ -_- it gets a bit more complicated.

It's not your best MC purpose, and if it is, it's not your best "You will survive" thing.... (thinking Ike airdodge to side-B. I think that's his best MC, but he'll just SD.... lol)

Now I don't get what you're saying. Airdodges allow you to escape hitstun. That's all stingers was tryin' to say, and that's correct. "best momentum-canceller" is where terminology is too confused to have any meaning; no character has a "best momentum-cancel strategy" until you're talking about a particular scenario (starting point + trajectory + amt of knockback from the hit, + whether or not you're holding an item).

HTH

(*) Actually, at the point where hitstun normally would end (if you don't escape hitstun) (that is, a little before knockback wears off on your character, and hitstun transitions to tumble), the type of knockback changes. At this point, your horizontal drift towards the stage ("n00b-DI") can save you from the killzone, and you can use all your jumps/specials (even b-reversing them!) and even momentum-altering aerials and they should help you and not give you extra boosts away from the stage and whatnot. Generally when we're talking about momentum-cancelling, I've assumed that we're able to cancel hitstun early enough that we're trying to use a Jump or Special earlier than tumble would have started; otherwise, the optimal thing to do might be to not escape hitstun, but rather wait it out so that you can do something the moment tumble starts. But I'm not sure if it's ever optimal with any character to do anything, at the point of tumble, rather than just lean towards the stage... moar testing required!

(**) I think Dair is actually always optimal since you can input the fastfall-ing Down input on the very same frame as the aerial, whereas everything else presumably the Down has to happen at earliest at the frame after the aerial itself. The caveat, however, is that if you'd accidentally registered Down input on the frame before the Attack input causing the Dair, then the fastfall will not register; this can happen often due to buffering (ex. you buffer a Dair before the earliest time at which you're allowed to use an aerial out of hitstun; your character will Dair as early as possible, but it won't be fastfalled, so you'll have to release the stick and then tap down again, thus costing you 2 frames rather than the 1 you would've lost (at best) using a different aerial).

Wow what a mess! sorry for any confusion!

 

[Overswarm]

Fastfalling has nothing to do with momentum cancelling whatsoever.

Fastfalling changes your trajectory, just like DI. You don't say "learn to momentum cancel" when someone doesn't DI an MK d-smash and dies at 80%.


Momentum cancelling is the slowing of your momentum by doing an attack. The moment the hitbox of a move starts is when you slow down. If you don't believe me, pick snake and dair after you get hit. Then fair after you get hit. Dair immediately slows you down.

Fastfall is about trajectory.

 

[SuSa]

@infzy
The curve is a half-truth then. While not reducing knockback, it is altering your trajectory as to still make a difference.

@Overswarm
Bowser's fair and uair work the same for me. Still don't see your point. ^_^

 

[infomon]

infzy
is laughing at overswarm

I think that's the first I've ever heard someone attempt a definition at this ill-conceived term "momentum-cancelling". I think it's silly to say that fastfalling has nothing to do with it -- since you need to have done an attack (or airdodge) early in hitstun to be able to fastfall before the time at which hitstun would normally come to and end... thus, you know, cancelling some of the momentum that was given to you from knockback. In the context of being sent on a purely-vertical kill-trajectory, fastfalling is not about changing your trajectory, but counteracting some of the knockback against you.

As I explained above (see the **), the difference between a wise Snake using his Dair vs. his Fair is at most 1 frame. And it has nothing to do with when the hitbox comes out.

 

[CT Chia]

I don't even get what the argument at hand is?

Just DI towards the edge of the screen (or straight up on horizontal heavy moves or straight away on vertail heavy moves)
Fair asap
Fastfall asap

From there though, does overB actually help? idk if it would

 

[stingers]

over b helps

 

[CT Chia]

then there u go

Just DI towards the edge of the screen (or straight up on horizontal heavy moves or straight away on vertail heavy moves)
Fair asap
Fastfall asap
OverB if needed

is there anything that could be done to be better?

Post #6,666 @_@

 

[stingers]

jumping helps if you couldn't reach the corner with ur DI and you need to get closer to it before you regain control

 

[Big O]

Infzy is correct. Fastfalling alters the vertical knockback only. It doesn't bend your trajectory. If you get hit horizontally fastfalling will only make it harder to recover by making you lower than you could have been.

 

[infomon]

Congrats Chibo!

is there anything that could be done to be better?

Yes. If you'd had an item (ex. gyro) in-hand, then instead of the Fair, you would have wanted to airdodge (which starts earlier than the Fair could have), then immediately cancel the airdodge with an item-throw.. and then fastfall (would take its own frame afaik) and then over-B. If you're really good, then you'd have DI'd slightly differently to account for the fact that you weren't able to fastfall as early since the item-throw, while allowing you to escape hitstun early, couldn't itself be fastfalled.

Similarly, it's plausible to me that for ROB, there is a tournament-possible scenario involving a long-distance knockback trajectory, where ROB's airdodge on its own can start early enough in hitstun that it's better than waiting to use his Fair to escape hitstun. In order that you can side-B to momentum-cancel.

Then again idk how much ROB's side-B even helps, but I'm assuming by the existence of this thread that it does something since ur jump doesn't seem to do much at all lol

Edit: Stingers is right, jumping can help for the purpose of putting you in a better spot, lol

and holy crap! Big_O in tha house!! you can credit him as having discovered a ton of this stuff in the first place lol

 

[stingers]

getting closest to the corner is always best. nvm

side b helps but not by a lot. i mean i can survive pretty well generally. against az's diddy i usually survived dsmashes at like 160%. side b didn't really change that much. its only a few %.

maybe if ur DI isnt as good it helps better.