New Method of Momentum Canceling

[GwJ]

So Fishy mentioned in Q&A thread or the Social thread that Airdodge>Side-B was better than Fair as a momentum canceler. I'm currently at his house and we determined that most of the time, Fair is better, but once you get to the point where you have time to airdodge and Side-B, that method is better. So ROBots, impliment this to make ROB live even longer!

Note: I made a new threads because I know the ROB mains are lazy ****s and won't pay attention unless they see a fancy new thread.

 

[ipitydatfu]

or if someone makes a new post in the social boards >_>

interesting gotta try it sometimes

 

[Mag!c]

I find this interesting, but does it force ROB to recover from a lower position before he begins ascending with the Up+B?

 

[GwJ]

No, it puts him higher actually.

 

[stingers]

once you get to the point where you have time to airdodge and side b? huh?

airdodge side b is slower then fair isnt it? i dont get it

 

[GwJ]

It's slower, but the momentum cancel is stronger. You can survive Snake's Fsmash at 165% with this where you would die at like 155 with Fair.

 

[stingers]

so isn't this always better?

 

[Darth Waffles]

If you don't have the time to get off the airdodge and side B, then you may as well try F-air>jump (and so on...), but otherwise yes, this is always better. GwJ/s percents are from the largest stage possible in stage builder

And Mag!c, ROB shouldn't have any problems with recovering, even if he did end up lower afterward =P

But yeah, when pulled off, this is more effective. I'll try to find the chart again but apparently airdodge is better framewise than fair by like 8 frames because you can airdodge earlier than you can input an aerial.

If only reversed up-Bs worked to cancel momentum =(

 

[jjvirus]

I'll try it out when I'm not being a lazy ****.

 

[stingers]

does wavebouncing the side b do anything for our momentum?

like how zelda's wavebounced nayru's acts like a bucket brake?

 

[Darth Waffles]

I might be wrong but I don't think they were wavebouncing the nayru's, just pressing B and immediately jamming the control stick in the other direction, like what snakes do with grenades when they fastfall sometimes. That's how I got it to work, at least.

I haven't done anything with wavebouncing/bsticking/wii-mote and nunchuck setups though

Here's the article and list I mentioned before
http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=4377

The link to the list is the geocities one at the bottom of that page

 

[Sudai]

I might be wrong but I don't think they were wavebouncing the nayru's, just pressing B and immediately jamming the control stick in the other direction, like what snakes do with grenades when they fastfall sometimes. That's how I got it to work, at least.

That's how you wavebounce neutral B's.. <.<

 

[Darth Waffles]

That's how you wavebounce neutral B's.. <.<

I....


...

...I [COLOR="1f1f"]FAIL[/COLOR] win =P

Let's, uh, forget about that part and go back to the side B
10brainfarts... It's all because I never finished that Robotic Glossary I started in like April or something lmao

 

[TEECO]

Thats awesome. Won't hurt to attach a link to a vid of it though

Im guessing you mash B towards the stage.

 

[stingers]

to clarify...

airdodge -> side b is the best option in every scenario except when you'll die before you can finish?

and in that case you're basically screwed right? so you should just shoot a gyro or laser or something?

 

[TEECO]

Fair is better, but once you get to the point where you have time to airdodge and Side-B, that method is better. .

This is confusing...

Dont you always have time to airdodge?

 

[GwJ]

Well yea, but airdodging alone is a piss-poor momentum canceler, but it seems side-b is a better one than Fair, BUT the time it takes for side-b to become available is too long.

 

[Darth Waffles]

@TEECO- Actually, I don't think it helps at all to mash B vs just press it. The part you need is the part that flings you to the side and cancels the momentum. I don't know if GwJ found something with angling the side B up/down to help, but I would say that mashing B when doing the side B would be like Game and Watch holding down the bucket after it comes out. It won't really do anything (except reflect, which I DID GET OFF IN ROB DITTOS! [yay]) so I would just press it and drift back to the stage as necessary.

@stingers- I think it is, until proven otherwise (or see the last paragraph). If you KNOW you can't get the side B off, you could shoot a gyro or laser like you wrote, but that's no different from when you were Fair-ing and jumping... You really don't have that much of a window to decide to fire them off and guarantee your death rather than try for the momentum reduction

Again, I'd encourage everyone to make the largest stage possible and try it yourselves with something like Snake Fsmashing ROB at high percents in training mode to understand it better.

fair>jump is faster to get off but takes you closer to the blast zones. At higher percents (where fair>jump would kill you), airdodge>side B will keep you alive. It's not like you should be getting punished for doing the sideB method because at that point you'll be at the upper corners of the stage anyway, away from harm. I think I've now edited this single post about 6 times so I'll wait for more people to try it out/respond =P

 

[stingers]

...that makes no sense lol

airdodge to side b should always be better from what you're saying

edit: that was to gw

 

[GwJ]

By the way, I'm testing now and plan to record.

UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE

I saw the flaw in my logic that air dodge is necessary to make Side-B accessible, so I'm like, "Why the **** aren't I using Fair then Side-B?". So basically, the most I could survive from an uncharged Snake Fsmash from the bottomost left corner going right was 160 with Fair and Airdodge > Side-B, but with Fair> Side-B I survived at 161. I'm testing more, I'll keep you updated.

 

[TEECO]

Waffles, I see what your saying, but I think pressing B would at least help a little more.
Say your in the air, and you use side B, but don't keep pressing B.
-It would only travel horizontally for the startup of it

Say your in the air, and you use side B, but KEEP pressing B.
-It would travel horizontally for as long as the move lasts. Meaning, you get farther.

I think pressing B would help a little more rather than just pressing it once.
I dont know this for sure, but im just sayin. b4 i get flamed for something...


The idea sounds awesome but it doesn't sound legit to me yet. I really hope it pulls through though, cause a little help DIing with that scrap metal wouldn't hurt.

 

[GwJ]

The problem with pressing B is it hurts you. Have you seen the videos where it shows that Fox using illusion or shine makes them go further rather than helping them which isn't what you would think? That's how ROB's side-b goes if you press b.

 

[Darth Waffles]

So basically, the most I could survive from an uncharged Snake Fsmash from the bottomost left corner going right was 160 with Fair and Airdodge > Side-B, but with Fair> Side-B I survived at 161.

Lol. 1% is too legit. Read the chart for that logic- It's framewise faster to airdodge anyway, and I like how I worded it in my last post

@TEECO- see if you can get it to work- I'll try it again tomorrow by myself but I remember only getting the horizontal motion at the beginning, not throughout the entire move. I might be wrong though, like I was with the "wavebouncing" lol

 

[TEECO]

Yeah, I have. Daym, thats a bummer. Guess we're better off with Fair then huh?

EDIT: @ waffles: yeah man, im not too sure either but ill try tomorrow as well, because I might not play anymore tonight.

 

[stingers]

Fastfall Fair -> Side B is the best way to momentum cancel from what I'm seeing here.

Airdodging isn't as good as fastfalling an aerial because fastfalling actually stops your momentum a bit, and you can do it during an aerial. Whereas you can't fastfall with an airdodge, so even if the airdodge ends earlier, the frames that you're fastfalling during your fair actually ends up helping you more even if you need to wait a bit longer to use the move.

This would be wrong if you had a braking move like GaW or Pikachu, becuase in that case you always want to do what ends the fastest so you can totally stop your momentum ASAP. But ROB doesn't have a braking move (on that note, ROB's jump actually doesn't affect his momentum at all so jumping after an aerial is pointless with him) so Fastfall fair -> Side B should be the best if Side B really does slow momentum like you guys are saying. And it should, now that I think about it.

And logically, tapping B during the Side B should help you out. The example someone gave earlier about how you keep your momentum with Fox's Shine or Side B is flawed because you're assuming that the moves totally brake your momentum like a GaW bucket does. That's not true; it just speeds up your momentum so that you kind of..."teleport" to where you would've ended up anyway, but faster. This means it's the same end result and there's no reason to do it. With ROBs Side B, by fastfalling an aerial you're already starting to regain control in the air the second you do it. After the Fair ends and you begin your Side B, every frame that's going on, you're continuously "fighting" the momentum and getting control back more and more every frame. It's not a "teleport" move like Fox's specials are.

 

[Syde7]

I read about 3/4 of the posts... and this is what I think he means:

You can airdodge after 14 frames of being hit
Airdodging last 39 Frames
You can aerial after 26 frames of being hit
F-air lasts for 31 frames (according to the list posted by Gw, sounds like im reading it wrong..)
ROBs Copter starts on frame 22 (I think...)

So we have:
26F (how soon we can do an aerial after being hit) + 31 Frames (f-air) + 4 frames for the double jump (estimate) = 61 total frames before your sub-par momentum cancel comes in

14 Frames (how soon you can airdodge after being hit) + 39 Frames (length of airdodge)+ 22 Frames (before robocopter kicks in) = 75 frames before a better momentum cancel comes in

Aerial+DJ= quicker, but less momentum cancel
Airdodge+robocopter= slower, but better momentum cancel

IF you are going to die before the 75 frame window, use the Aerial+DJ
IF you are NOT going to die before the 75 frame window, use the AD+Copter

I *THINK* that's what he is saying.

But, this begs the question... is it possible to use a special after the same time period as an aerial? If that's the case, why not just replace the F-air with a special, as that would take out the time it takes to airdodge? Or, does that create reduction in Momentum Cancelling effectiveness?


EDIT: totally got ninja'd while I was typing this. I agree with stingers, it seems that FF F-air->RoboCopter appears to be the best option from what I've read & such.

 

[stingers]

what? you can do any action once you come out of hitstun, you dont need to wait longer whether you're airdodging or aerialing

 

[stingers]

fastfall fair -> side b is the best option in every scenario. even off the top, because a fastfall aerial is always the best option off the top and i mean i guess the side b might do something

 

[GwJ]

Tested.
Best use: Fastfall Fair> Side B - Survived Snake uncharged Fsmash at 165% + Lived.
Just Fastfall Fair - Survived Snake FSmash at 161%.

That was just from 25 min. of testing. 4% may not seem like much, but every bit helps.

HD Video soon.

 

[stingers]

aww yeah

called it

theorycraft ftw

 

[stingers]

and now, can you test something gw? see if wavebouncing the side-b after the fastfall fair ends towards the stage affects anything at all. while you're at it, try wavebouncing the laser, the gyro, and the up b just to be sure

 

[GwJ]

BTW, airdodge >side B beats Fast fall Fair, but doesn't beat Fastfall Fair > Side B.

stingers, explain to me wavebouncing. I never use that at all so I'm not familar with it.

 

[Sudai]

Just b-stick it. Hold one way, B-Stick the other.

 

[GwJ]

Ok, I'll try that now.

edit: That's a touch one. I can't do it in training. P1 is the only one with custom controls, but I can't do that easily without manually giving damage to ROB. BUT I will try it, it'll just take a while.

edit2: Wavebouncing makes it worse. T_T I tried it and ROB gained momentum when I did it.

 

[GwJ]

DP: Stay updated with http://www.YouTube.com/GwJumpman
The video is uploading and it's at 60 FPS HD, but unfortunately I am very tired and don't feel like staying up waiting for the uploading and processing to finish. Expect it in like 30-40 minutes to show up.

 

[GwJ]

Uploaded and here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rqxx74MclI

 

[Sudai]

Did it really have to be that long of a video? Most of it was unnecessary. <.<

 

[GwJ]

It was 2:45 AM, I didn't feel like editing at that time of the hour.

 

[T0MMY]

It's funny, at EVO I accidentally (or subconsciously) did the Arm Rotor to stop momentum and I was like... oops... then I notice it gave me a boost forward, so I was like.. hmmm...
Thanks for posting this info :^)

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Excuse me for my n00bishness, buuuuuut...... is there any reason why ws shouldn't just Bair instead?