*NEW* matchup discussion week #6: Wario!

[BleachigoZX]

Dair through platform? What? Do 6% damage, suffer landing lag, get punished by a 13% bair/dair?

What?

Wario ain't got **** when you're spamming utilt/nair/laser under a platform, it'll probably end up with him pulling all sorts of tricks that aren't supposed to work and, for some reason, actually work out pretty well.

People saying Wario has got nothing on Falco are what they are (no further elaboration required, really). Wario is very much capable of preventing stuff of happening to him, and is rather capable of keeping Falco in a bad spot once he gets him there (fthrow, uair, dair, high percent nair). Wario's CG doesn't change the MU all that much if at all, it's just not consistent enough.

No offense to you Pierce/Dan (I think I'll call you Dan), but to what extent do you know this matchup so well that you can actually drop in and exclaim that Falco ***** Wario? As for Larry, what?

Lord Chair have you played a Falco in tourney? One that knew what they were doing. Falco has so many tools to counter Wario's camping, this one is unfortunately a bad one for Wario.

Falco shenanigan factor > Wario's

(13%? and the follow up? and the combo? or the grab? or your stock?)

 

[Notra]

Dair through platform? What? Do 6% damage, suffer landing lag, get punished by a 13% bair/dair?

What?

Wario ain't got **** when you're spamming utilt/nair/laser under a platform, it'll probably end up with him pulling all sorts of tricks that aren't supposed to work and, for some reason, actually work out pretty well.

People saying Wario has got nothing on Falco are what they are (no further elaboration required, really). Wario is very much capable of preventing stuff of happening to him, and is rather capable of keeping Falco in a bad spot once he gets him there (fthrow, uair, dair, high percent nair). Wario's CG doesn't change the MU all that much if at all, it's just not consistent enough.

No offense to you Pierce/Dan (I think I'll call you Dan), but to what extent do you know this matchup so well that you can actually drop in and exclaim that Falco ***** Wario? As for Larry, what?

Well teran, I've been lovin the boards bit this guy may get me raging again.

Who invited this fail scrandy. Go find a dyck bud seriously. U like having everyone hate u? Or r u just naturally unwanted and lost.

Fwuak up.

Sincerely,
Notra

 

[Wulfy07]

The match up is tricky and not one of my most knowledgeable, but I would reason 55-45. Air camping is fine, but there shouldn't be any reason for Wario to be a stock or percent ahead. However, Wario is quite a contender, and since I've seen some good Wario fights, I'd have to wager it wouldn't possibly be worse than 60-40, ever. Still, I think it's 55-45 Falco favor, due to seeing arguments for both sides (6:4 and 5:5)

 

[Lord Chair]

Lord Chair have you played a Falco in tourney? One that knew what they were doing. Falco has so many tools to counter Wario's camping, this one is unfortunately a bad one for Wario.

Falco shenanigan factor > Wario's

(13%? and the follow up? and the combo? or the grab? or your stock?)

I play this matchup pretty much all the time with Xonar. I do not claim that Wario has an easy time with Falco, neither do I claim that Wario has an advantage. Falco is a real ***** to play against, you'll never hear me say otherwise. Everything he has outranges Wario, his groundgame nullifies Wario's (which technically translates to just grab) and blabla all the other things you probably know yourself.

However, these things are probably the factor in almost all Wario matchups. He's always outranged and pretty much everyone can effectively wall him with the silliest of moves. As PhantomX clearly put: That's pretty much all Wario's MUs. Wario has the tools to **** Falco up, it just takes quite the bit of effort. Wario survives to stupid percentages so long as he knows what he's doing, making up for Falco's damage racking (read: percent by percent). Wario is very capable of avoiding a chaingrab in pretty much all cases except for FD (how did you even end up there, really?), platform just make it that much easier, probably making Wario eat some percentage but hey, I shall quote myself in bold because it's that important:

If Wario is allowed to have a platform, then he's a tard if he manages to get chaingrabbed.

I take the opportunity to quote myself again, just to make myself clear:

Falco has sincere trouble killing Wario.

Falco's killing moves are bair. See what I did there? Landing usmash should be nigh impossible if Wario spaces properly, it probably happens eventually, but not quite whenever Falco pleases. Bair kills rather late, but effectively. Wario will be in the air pretty much the entire matchup, and if he starts shieldcamping ('cause really, it's just that safe) Falco has the tools to get him flying. Landing that bair is a pain though, and missing one gives Wario all the opportunity he needs to terrorize Falco.

Wario won't land a lot of farts when the MU is played properly, neither will he get a lot (if any) of kills with fsmash. Fsmash just doesn't work. This leaves him with upair, which is painfully easy to land once you get Falco in the air. How does Wario easily get Falco in the air? Grab. Grab and perhaps dair, in some stupid context. Falco gets demolished once he's up in the air, mostly because he doesn't really have a clear way to land. Also, Falco can't recover all that well, attempts to recover usually lead to getting daired, which means back up in the air.

I could go on and on, but only if anyone is really interested.

Blablabla I have nothing to add also I'm gay.

Don't. Really, no. Just no.

Kind regards,

Your everloving friend and gentleman, Chair

 

[BleachigoZX]

Wait up, are you trying to argue that Wario wins or not?


Because if you aren't, I don't really care.

 

[Lord Chair]

Wait up, are you trying to argue that Wario wins or not?


Because if you aren't, I don't really care.

I'm trying to say that this match-up is nothing worse than 55-45 Falco's favor.

 

[Notra]

I'm trying to say that this match-up is nothing worse than 55-45 Falco's favor.

Like what has already been said. Gg thanks for pointless posts.

 

[Lord Chair]

Like what has already been said. Gg thanks for pointless posts.

Everything has been said before. If you'd like a philosophical discussion on the subject feel free to contact me.

I won't mention the fact that my earlier post was full of contribution, as opposed to anything you've had to add so far.

 

[Notra]

Sry bro. I didn't comment, unless I saw something that wasnt said. But it all was. And why do u use so much effort in disguising ur insults toward me. I don't care about candy coating. Infact it wastes time.

 

[Lord Chair]

Sry bro. I didn't comment, unless I saw something that wasnt said. But it all was. And why do u use so much effort in disguising ur insults toward me. I don't care about candy coating. Infact it wastes time.

Nay chap, courtesy it is. Also, you don't really have to take everything as an insult.

Back on-topic! This ain't no place for whining!

 

[toobusytocare]

its even

falcos lasers are gay, wario does nasty things once he gets in

 

[MetalMusicMan]

I've always felt that it seems very 50/50, albeit very annoying for both characters.

 

[BleachigoZX]

Falco wins 60:40.

Falco is really good inside too, Frame 2!

React to it I dare you!

 

[o0 DR3W 0o]

its even

falcos lasers are gay, wario does nasty things once he gets in

pervert

 

[toobusytocare]

i changed my mind

falco favor

 

[BOLT08]

I would say 55:45 falco, maybe 50:50

If falco can keep his running away game going and get a CG off if the opportunity arises it just makes for a long, patient match to get wario to a killing %. The grab release to spike on the edge is nice too, if wario is ever at a high percent. Even at low percents you can follow wario off the edge after the dthrow-->spike or release--> spike and wait for his bike and spike again.

Wario can kill us pretty quickly however, and can rack up some serious damage very quickly. His fart also makes for an easy kill to punish us if we screw up. His air mobility also makes it tough to land lasers and stop his approach, so camping is more of a thing of patience than anything. If the wario is able to predict your escapes the match can quickly turn in his favor.

 

[Waft-OLi]

50/50, wtf is with all this 60/40 falco crap.... seriously falco cant kill worth ****, wario kills falco early as ****, its an even MU ffs.

 

[swordsaint]

Don't come in to our boards being all frustrated, especially when this match up has been settled already at a practically even ratio. It was settled at 55-45 Falco. That's basically an even MU.

 

[Teran]

50/50, wtf is with all this 60/40 falco crap.... seriously falco cant kill worth ****, wario kills falco early as ****, its an even MU ffs.

Usually coming in and doing nothing but curse and give a ratio doesn't really amount to a decent argument.

If you want to add your opinion on a matchup, it's more prudent to actually say something of worth and substance.

I mean I could just do all the matchups in one and say "stfu you're all ******** if you disagree" at the end, but it wouldn't really hold much weight.

 

[Waymas]

50/50 imo wario kan only be killed with the cg to spike + gimp or with fsmash, usmash or bair notin else got falko , and usmash will only kill if u get hit by a lazor.

Even kause of the lazor spam and cg

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I love the intelligence of these Wario players.

 

[Vlade]

50/50 imo wario kan only be killed with the cg to spike + gimp or with fsmash, usmash or bair notin else got falko , and usmash will only kill if u get hit by a lazor.

Even kause of the lazor spam and cg

I laughed because those are Falco's ONLY kill moves :D (with the exception of uair)

I don't know why laser to usmash is working on you unless you're pinned by SHDL midair

 

[SSSnake]

this matchup is definitley a 60:40 falco. there is no way wario
has an advantage over falco because falco's shls and shdls
are good approaches when used correctley, and then falco
will chain grab him utill hes at ~40%. usually more since wario
is an abnormally heavy character. then falco uses his jabs,
blaster, aerials and finallly smashes (or maybey a spike) to
finish the job. sure wario COULD win, but i would suggest that
they also be good at the ics for falco. but, if falco had his bread,
we wouldnt be having this discussion, would we?

 

[swordsaint]

this matchup is definitley a 60:40 falco. there is no way wario
has an advantage over falco because falco's shls and shdls
are good approaches when used correctley, and then falco
will chain grab him utill hes at ~40%. usually more since wario
is an abnormally heavy character. then falco uses his jabs,
blaster, aerials and finallly smashes (or maybey a spike) to
finish the job. sure wario COULD win, but i would suggest that
they also be good at the ics for falco. but, if falco had his bread,
we wouldnt be having this discussion, would we?

Please oh god stop talking.

 

[Teran]

I just wish
he'd stop typing
the way he's tying

 

[SSSnake]

oh... sorry.

 

[DMG]

Oh you guys already had this discussion? Lol

Ok few things you can do:

SDI out of Nair and punish
SDI out of Utilt and punish
Shield Grab Jab
I think you can Nair Falco after he jabs if you are in the air. He might be able to powershield it, but that's about it I believe

Falco should SDI out of Dair and take less than 10% lol
Abuse Ftilt, not Utilt
Jab is good, multi jab garbage
Most of the time, try not to beat out Bite or trade with it


Killing for Falco is gonna suck big time. If you can't land that Usmash or Fsmash, good luck with Bair is all I can say.

 

[swordsaint]

Hey DMG, Falco's grab outranges Wario's bite. I do it EVERYTIME.
And getting the kill isn't too much of a problem if we're not playing on a flat stage. Grab release trickies yo. If we are it's gonna be difficult, obviously. However a lot of Wario's have a tendancy to abuse their air dodge because it's so good, often becoming predictable, meaning damage and/or kills. I'm not speaking for ALL Wario's though.

 

[Lord Chair]

And getting the kill isn't too much of a problem if we're not playing on a flat stage. Grab release trickies yo.

Don't expect to ever air release a decent Wario player unless you chaingrab him to the edge (Wai,t he got grabbed at a low percentage, how?). The only probable stages on which you may perhaps get an air release are Delfino, Brinstar, Frigate, RC, and Lylat. No further elaboration required.

 

[swordsaint]

Did you even read my post? "...If we're NOT playing on a flat stage." So in other words, the air releases will come on the stages with slants.

Also it may shock you, but Falco can grab Wario. Mostly from pivot grabs, but it still happens.

 

[Lord Chair]

Notice how the stages I named all have slopes or otherwise allow Falco to air release Wario.

No, if Wario plays the way he should he will not get grabbed below 40% unless he trips. Won't happen.

 

[swordsaint]

Sorry, but it seemed like the way you replied to my post suggested that I didn't say slopes only.

 

[Suspect]

I didnt really read through this but what's the best stages for falco against wario?

 

[SSSnake]

probably one of the best is FD.

 

[DMG]

Well it depends. Either FD or Japes, however on Japes you need to be very cautious as Wario is ******** with "stalling" there. The stage begs for him to play gay, and it feels like it was built for him. Riding your Bike into and under the Water? High ceiling for you to Bike and run to? Multiple spots for your bike to fall off into the water so that you regenerate another one quickly? Great Air Mobility with multiple safe spots for him to choose from? It can get bad if you don't keep the lead on him there. FD is a safer pick, and will definitely be a legal stage to pick from where as Japes will be questionable depending on your region. Aside from those two stages, Castle Siege might be an interesting try. The first part is kinda meh for Falco, but the next 2 parts are pretty decent. While the statues block your lasers, you also have a lot of breathing room from Wario. This part is very bad for Falco if time is a factor and Wario has a noticeable lead, as it becomes really hard for you to chase him here. So basically this is a good transformation assuming you are in the lead/time is not low. The third transformation is probably the best for Falco. It's fairly flat and simple, and the tilting screws up Wario's CG on you. The slants can also get in the way if he is positioned wrong. Other benefits for Falco overall on this stage are that when the stage is changing, it gives you opportunities to mess up his CG. If you are fortunate, you can also use the flat transformation floor to CG Wario to somewhere that would be offstage, and Dair him into the falling floor. This makes it incredibly difficult to recover from compared to normal. The flat transforming parts also allow you room to shoot lasers or get away quickly if needed. I'm not sure how Falco would really like the stage vs Wario, I don't think I've played a Falco on here (usually if Japes or FD is not an option, most Falco players take me to like Battlefield which I think is OK for Falco, but potentially better stages for that matchup as the platforms also allow Wario to run away like a *****) BUT it sounds alright on paper so maybe you can give it a try.

 

[swordsaint]

DMG, you're so smart. I'm definately gonna try this on Tedeth next time I play him.

 

[Lord Chair]

Falco shouldn't really take Wario to Battlefield, he's better off just going for Smashville.

I feel equally meh about taking Wario to CS. The first transformation is fine for Wario, and whenever you really get into the third transformation no one should really be talking about chaingrabs, the timing just doesn't really fit. The first transformation can be played rather aggro, and Falco cannot really camp the way he usually does there, I find him to be in a definite disadvantage there. The second transformation doesn't really add anything to anyone's game for reason the reader can think of by himself. As I said: the third transformation will probably be played at higher percentages, the fact that it's usually a slope is more of a con to Falco than it is to Wario.

TL;DR: The only reason you'd pick the third transformation is rendered null and void because of the practical percentages you'll be running around with at that time.

 

[Denzi]

the fact that it's usually a slope is more of a con to Falco than it is to Wario.

Actually on a slope Falco can force an air release, making it better because they are likely to be at high %s by then, and that can get us an easy kill.

 

[DMG]

Slopes in general are good for Falco because they can mess with the CG too.

 

[Teran]

Just remember that IAP doesn't work on slopes, well it semi does on a downwards one but then there's the cooldown lag of him falling..