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*NEW* matchup discussion week #11: Zelda!

Denzi

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 25, 2008
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Cleveland, OH
Note: This matchup discussion assumes there will be no use of Down B (on Zelda's part).



Anyway, we're finally getting back into the matchup discussions with everyone's favorite magical princess! This was requested as a rediscussion mainly because of the skewed data between the two boards regarding ratios. So lets get at it!


I'll update the OP as info comes in.
 

exdia_16

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 14, 2009
Messages
442
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Everywhere you are
okay someone kneed to get the magic broads on here to discuss i hav no idea wat to do against her i lost to my friends zelda badly i say smart laser camping help me take two stocks when i was at one.
 

swordsaint

Smash Master
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Dec 27, 2008
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Zelda is so easy. She really doesn't have anything on Falco imo. Find that good spacing where it's too dangerous for her to Din's fire and too dangerous for her to approach, and she's pretty much lost the game. We dish out some pretty heavy damage on her and she's fairly light too, so our kills come quicker than normal.

Using ledge invincibility frames we can spike their up B providing they miss the sweetspot, or simply get on to the stage and send them back off with w/e.

If the Zelda knows her dtilt %'s, just SDI that. You won't get hit by it more than once or twice.

A useful tip is that a lot of Zeldas spam dins fire when you're offstage, not thinking about it too much. If you think you're recovering a little iffy, take the hit to get some height.

Her Fsmash is very easily SDI'd too. Up smash is more tricky but possible.
 

Fuujin

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Sep 17, 2009
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Double posting in ur threads.
All Falco has to do is camp, Nayru's is too laggy to reflect anything without getting punished and shes super slow and pretty tall, shell be getting hit by most of the lasers.
If you for some reason want to fight her at close range, his jab is pretty nasty on her.
If you get off stage just don't be too obvious with phantasm because she can time her u tilt which kills pretty early, though its very hard to land unless the Falco makes it obvious.
When shes offstage and low enough just grab the ledge and wait for her to teleport, hop back on and punish as she lands on stage(Yes, Farore's really is that slow).
Falco's U smash will kill her pretty early due to her bad momentum canceling, so Dacus is his most reliable kill move.
I say maybe 60-40/65-35 for him.
 

Darkmusician

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Zelda vs Falco is easily in Falcos favor. There are so many things that Zelda has to watch out for and the margin for error isn't high for her.

At low percents Zelda will get walking chain grabbed. If caught at 0 Falco can take her to about 40 or so and if he spikes her he can get a mix up. Taking the off the stage spike doesn't help much because you're forced to up b more or less right away or risk getting spiked by Falco again during the up b start up animation. And even if you Up B on stage safely Falco can and will follow the up b and continue hitting you. My best advice is to learn to tech the spike and smash DI it into the stage and try to make use of Zelda's long tech roll animation. That is your best bet of escaping the mix up. It's not a sure escape but it's better than nothing. Also I would still be ready to jump out at anytime just in case the Falco makes a rare mistake.

Din's is mainly used to annoy. It's slow and easily avoided by Falco. I'm pretty sure he can clank with it in the air with some of his moves as well. Possibly dair, bair and uair. swordsaint is correct when he says that most Zeldas will auto pilot dins against off stage opponents so Falco can use that to his advantage in certain instances and use the Dins for a vertical boost or to recover past it and punish.

Falco can edgeguard Zelda on the other hand quite easily and with little risk to himself. Bair, shine, and f tilt are great tools for either keeping her off stage, eating her double jump or knocking her out of her up b start up. Lazy Zelda recoveries can and should be punished with bair or spikes. Against Falco I highly suggest mixing up your recovery. One read or careless moment and you can kiss your stock good bye. Do not try to challenge with falling nair or dair unless you absolutely need a gimp or something. It's not worth the risk and a well timed Falco bair or uair will beat it most of the time.

Zelda can rack up damage at low percent with upsmash but after the first few games the Falco will most likely realize (if they didn't know before) that they can just jump away after the first up smash. There may be rare cases where Falco gets caught with the ending part of the up smash which would make a second one possible, but over all Falco should be able to escape F and U smash no problem. The silver lining is that Zelda can get kills early with fresh sweet spots and up airs/tilts. It's not something that can be fished for, but it can be an equalizer in a pinch. So long as Zelda can keep up in the damage, she can also try to use up smash as a revenge kill move since at about 110-115 it should kill Falco outright when fresh. I don't like to rely on up smash personally, since if I miss I know I'm going to eat a big punish. I also recommend saving down smash for kills (120+ just to be safe) because it can put Falco in a position where he might end up below parallel with the stage depending how he DIs it.

On the ground Falco's jab shuts down pretty much anything that Zelda can try to do. It snuffs f-smash, which is what most Zelda's will try to spam/poke with. Down tilt can stop his illusion but most of the time Zelda's will not space it right and the invincible 1/3 of the illusion will just go right through it. Unless the dtilt trips, it won't lead to much because he can SDI it. That and most Zelda's spam it at any percent and waste it. Zelda d tilting an opponent at 0 just gives her frame disadvantage. I would try to wait until 50% or so before going for it.

This match up is such a pain because Falco can take a more reactive approach while Zelda has to be proactive. Zelda has to take the initiative and keep the damage output either as even as possible or in her favor. Once she falls behind the fight just gets harder and harder as Falco will rack up damage faster and can erase stocks with edgeguards and punishes. The Zelda has to be good at reading and take some chances at times to win this fight. The Zelda should pay attention to any patterns in recovery, spot dodge usage and or illusion usage. Punishing at the proper time with the proper move is also important. Zelda has to know when to punish with up air, or up smash etc but only when it'll maximize the usage of the move to make the punish count.

Zelda has to stay patient and pick her spots wisely and she can sorta kinda keep up. I also advise Falcos to watch how Zelda players tend to play on the second stock. Most new/less skilled players will tend to rush the 2nd stock and you'll most likely get a free chance to chain grab. They're over anxious to get a revenge kill and will probably not be spacing as well as they normally would be.

This match is AT LEAST 60:40 in Falco's favor. I say 65:35. 70:30 at worst but I do think that Zelda's kill power keeps it a little closer than that. Falco has the clear advantage, but Zelda can make this doable if they know what to look for and how to execute their punishes.
 

swordsaint

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Of course Zeldas kill power is decent, but Falco just finds it so easy to keep away from the problem attacks. Most Falco's will tend to tank their stock on high percents via lasers and safe attacks. Considering Falco's quick damage with the chaingrab, then depending on method of choice (i.e spiking you on stage or offstage) his edgeguarding makes it so much worse for Zelda that she's very nearly if not already in kill percents. By the time Zelda has Falco in kill percents she should be in her second stock already. Meaning Falco can camp all day while having Zelda chase him down despite having no reliable approach options.

Not to mention that most of Falco's attacks lead to decent follow ups because she has so many blindspots.
 

Darkmusician

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Zelda's kill power is more than decent. Not easy to hit with but she can maximize the power of her kill moves to kill Falco lower than his normal death percents.

However, I also agree that Falco's have no business dying from said kill moves at low/mid percents. They can play keep away all day and just grind Zelda out without worrying too much. Add on good DI, reactions and stage positioning it's not easy at all.

Falco racks up damage on Zelda really fast and I agree with Zelda having a lot of openings to build damage on, especially when the Zelda starts falling further and further behind and she is forced to take more and more risk

Zelda just has to be patient and take advantage of opportunities that present themselves without getting too reckless. If the situation calls for it taking big chances may be her only option, but the match is probably lost at that point anyway.
 

kismet2

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Apr 22, 2008
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Columbus, GA
Zelda can't do anything against Falco's pressure. Double jabs and grab her whenever you can for a Bthrow for Bair wall or dthrow for bdacus/regrabs. The biggest problem for Falco in this matchup is that her fsmash/usmash both can shield poke so she can pressure as well but falco has a good keep away game to prevent that so just use phantasm to reset spacing. Lol at the zelda pic XD
 

DEHF

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Dec 14, 2006
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NNID
larrlurr
I agree with what DM said, we played that match up for like two weeks lol.
 

MrEh

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Aug 24, 2008
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Honolulu, HI
Purple names have spoken.


But seriously, I've seen DM and DEHF play out that matchup for days. They know what's up.
 
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