New info on the outcome of a ganoncide.

[TP]

I was just testing ganoncides for about 45 minutes. All of my testing was with me being controller port 1 and the victim being controller port 2, due to time constraints. I have heard before that certain characters will win in this situation if you ganoncide with 1 stock left, while other characters will go to a sudden death. I have also heard that a ganoncide from very high up will cause a loss instead of a sudden death. From my testing, neither of these are true. Instead, whether or not you lose outright from a ganoncide appears to be RANDOM. This is wonderful news. If we can prove that the player has no control over it, we can get a ruling from the SBR similar to the Bowsercide rule. Most of my testing was with Jigglypuff. I tested from the bottom of a custom stage, the top, and from FD. As far as I could tell, regardless of where or how I choked Jiggs, she won outright approximately 10% of the time, with the rest going to sudden death.

I need you guys to test this alot, with many characters, in many situations, and record everything that happens. We will improve Ganon's chances at tournaments if we can prove my hypothesis that this is random.

 

[PhantomX]

You really hate Jigglypuff, haha.

 

[Z1GMA]

It would be so nice if one could just ask Sakurai "Is it random?" x)

btw... I test 99% of my stuff on Snake. lulz
Ganon Vs Snake is the most awesome Matchup in the entire game !!

 

[TP]

You really hate Jigglypuff, haha.

**** that fat pink testicle.

 

[Z1GMA]

**** that fat pink testicle.

Eww ... ;o

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Twilight Prince,
I want to help you, to improve Ganondorf. I'll try to Ganoncide all characters and make conclusions with your Ganoncide Tests. But, What the best character is appropriate for this situation?

One question:
Your purpose is use Ganoncide and always lead the situation to Sudden Death without Loss?

 

[*JuriHan*]

**** that fat pink testicle.

D:

eh to be honest after playing Meta knight and Kirby, I hate her too... urg:

 

[B!squick]

Make sure you also test with different ports.

 

[Squirrely]

Here's the link to the thread on ports and their influence:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=169109

It looks like they retracted most info on Ganon though.

 

[Big O]

I remember actually winning from a ganoncide before. It was done on Luigi as player 1 with Ganon as player 2 on FD. They were one stock games and I remember DIing during the ganoncide. I did it a few times and then I could never reproduce it. Maybe you guys could try that. I think most tourneys would rule a ganoncide as a win for Ganon anyway though. I think Genesis will at any rate.

 

[|RK|]

Quick noob question: What do controller ports have to do with anything?

 

[TP]

Quick noob question: What do controller ports have to do with anything?

Click the link two posts above yours.

 

[Squirrely]

I've won several time using Ganoncides as well. By that I mean they died and I didn't.

In most of the cases I was up one stock so it wouldn't have mattered but I thought it was interesting nonetheless.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Twilight Prince,
With 1 stock left Your purpose is always lead the situation to Sudden Death or Victory when you perform Ganoncide?

 

[TP]

Currently, all that matters is understanding WHY things happen. We can attempt to manipulate the outcome later. It would be great if we could find the key to winning with a ganoncide, or the key to losing so we can avoid it. For now, we just need more info.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Currently, all that matters is understanding WHY things happen. We can attempt to manipulate the outcome later. It would be great if we could find the key to winning with a ganoncide, or the key to losing so we can avoid it. For now, we just need more info.

Tournaments gives the initiater of the Ganoncide the win, so I doubt it'll really matter.

 

[TP]

Tournaments gives the initiater of the Ganoncide the win, so I doubt it'll really matter.

This is usually true, but it would be nice to get an official rule.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I've looked into it previously, and I'm pretty sure it's non-random. To quote myself from elsewhere:

When Ganondorf suicides with his forward special, he either loses or goes to sudden death depending on the initial height of the grab (it's based on the fact that he moves a quantized distance each frame and the distance between his death box and his opponent's is smaller than that).

That is, it's not about going from "high" or "low". It's about tiny differences. Think of it like even and odd numbers. If you're 20 ft, 22 ft, or 24 feet up, Ganon loses. If you're 21 ft, 23 ft, or 25 ft up, it's sudden death. I've never seen Ganondorf win out of his suicide except on stages like Brinstar where the explanation is obvious. I don't think it's possible.

Any rule to make Ganondorf win out of his suicide is a horrible rule because of this. It's in direct defiance of game mechanics. The best solution would be to have no rule related to Ganondorf's suicide, but if you insist upon a rule, it should be that Ganondorf always loses, not wins. Rules aren't meant to buff characters so the fact that Ganondorf "needs" it is irrelevant. It's just more in line with the mechanics for him to lose in that situation.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I've looked into it previously, and I'm pretty sure it's non-random. To quote myself from elsewhere:

When Ganondorf suicides with his forward special, he either loses or goes to sudden death depending on the initial height of the grab (it's based on the fact that he moves a quantized distance each frame and the distance between his death box and his opponent's is smaller than that).

That is, it's not about going from "high" or "low". It's about tiny differences. Think of it like even and odd numbers. If you're 20 ft, 22 ft, or 24 feet up, Ganon loses. If you're 21 ft, 23 ft, or 25 ft up, it's sudden death. I've never seen Ganondorf win out of his suicide except on stages like Brinstar where the explanation is obvious. I don't think it's possible.

Any rule to make Ganondorf win out of his suicide is a horrible rule because of this. It's in direct defiance of game mechanics. The best solution would be to have no rule related to Ganondorf's suicide, but if you insist upon a rule, it should be that Ganondorf always loses, not wins. Rules aren't meant to buff characters so the fact that Ganondorf "needs" it is irrelevant. It's just more in line with the mechanics for him to lose in that situation.

Hm, I'm pretty sure that mashing random buttons is what allows the opponent to survive Ganoncide...

 

[SmashBrosForce]

This is usually true, but it would be nice to get an official rule.

Twilight Prince is pretty right !

We need get the Official Rule of Ganoncide !

 

[:034:]

Any rule to make Ganondorf win out of his suicide is a horrible rule because of this. It's in direct defiance of game mechanics. The best solution would be to have no rule related to Ganondorf's suicide, but if you insist upon a rule, it should be that Ganondorf always loses, not wins. Rules aren't meant to buff characters so the fact that Ganondorf "needs" it is irrelevant. It's just more in line with the mechanics for him to lose in that situation.

I disagree!

Here's our situation - both characters are at 1 stock, one Ganondorf and the other... Marth. Marth knocked Ganondorf off the stage and the Ganondorf player attempts to recover using his forward B (since this gives you less RCO frames, it's a good option).

Then we have the Marth, who JUMPS IN FRONT OF GANON (what did he want do? did he mess up a speedhug? C-stick not working? WHO KNOWS), gets grabbed and they plummet to their doom.

According to the rules, Ganondorf loses this match.


....wait, WHAT?

The Ganondorf player just lost a match because a player was dumb enough to just jump in front of him? Because of that? No amount of skill, not even a fair to make it seem like a gimp?

With a rule saying "Whenever Ganondorf uses his suicide move to bring the match to Sudden Death, Ganondorf loses" would bring an amazing amount of stupid gimps towards the Ganondorf player. A Ganondorf player would NEVER be able to use forward B to recover any more out of fear of getting gimped in a stupid way. So, we have to use up-b, which gives us more lag on landing - making it even easier to edgeguard an already easy to edgeguard character.

Now, what would happen if the rule were "Whenever Ganondorf uses his suicide move to bring the match to Sudden Death, Ganondorf wins"? My friends, nothing would happen. Wanna know why? This will cause people to simply stay away from standing near the edge, in fear of getting Ganoncided.

Hey wait a minute... Could it be... that...

PEOPLE ALREADY DO THIS?! (dun dun dunnn!)

Now, with this rule, it simply requires competence and skill (on BOTH players accounts!) for something to come out. There's no gimp that consists of an opponent pushing the control stick to the side anymore, and Ganondorf players will more actively try to get themselves a Ganoncide. And I can tell you that getting a Ganoncide is really hard against a competent player (and often even a plain dumb choice).

Not to mention that you are simply plain wrong about the fact that the ruleset doesn't exist to buff certain characters. Let's look at the rule for Bowser: "If a game ends with Bowser doing his suicide klaw and it ends in sudden death, the sudden death will be ignored and that game will count as a win for Bowser."

And... Yeah... We obviously can't do this for Ganondorf... He'll be too good...

...

Really?

You might argue "You can DI against Bowser's Klaw", but you forget that Bowser's is SO much easier to hit, being practically lag free, having a giant disjoint on it, you can hop around infinitely with and it deals 18%~ even if you don't suicide with it. It's also practically unpunishable.

Then look at Ganon's, a ****load of lag, 12%, easy to see coming, no disjoint, high startup and you go into helpless mode if you don't grab the ledge. It only has downsides? Well, it has upsides for recovery - snapping to the ledge straight away and it reduces RCO lag (important!). So it can actually be a pretty good recovery option.

Might I once again say that anybody that is Ganoncided in tournament should probably not be entering? But then again - we're supposed to lose from hitting our once in a lifetime move, so why the **** not.

 

[@HomE]

FD that post was amazing...

send that **** to the SBR

Checkmate

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Flying Dutchman, I ****en love you.

 

[ColinJF]

Flying Dutchman's essay is nothing but a verbose version of "Ganon's forward special is a poor recovery move". It's a travesty to be sure but we don't buff bad moves in competitive gaming. The rule for Bowser was created because the mechanic hinged on controller port position, giving one player a material advantage from the outset. However, even the Bowser rule is unnecessary now because Bowser can delay dying in a Bowsercide and just win every time.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Flying Dutchman's essay is nothing but a verbose version of "Ganon's forward special is a poor recovery move". It's a travesty to be sure but we don't buff bad moves in competitive gaming. The rule for Bowser was created because the mechanic hinged on controller port position, giving one player a material advantage from the outset. However, even the Bowser rule is unnecessary now because Bowser can delay dying in a Bowsercide and just win every time.

It's a travesty to be sure but we don't buff bad moves in competitive gaming.

This "bad move" is our better recovery option, it reduces Ganon's RCO lag by a few frames, which could help him out a lot.

What I don't get though, is why are you guys trying to make a bad the worse character EVEN worse?

 

[:034:]

Flying Dutchman, I ****en love you.

It's on paper gentlemen.

Flying Dutchman's essay is nothing but a verbose version of "Ganon's forward special is a poor recovery move". It's a travesty to be sure but we don't buff bad moves in competitive gaming. The rule for Bowser was created because the mechanic hinged on controller port position, giving one player a material advantage from the outset. However, even the Bowser rule is unnecessary now because Bowser can delay dying in a Bowsercide and just win every time.

That is not at all what I'm saying. Read this again:

Well, it has upsides for recovery - snapping to the ledge straight away and it reduces RCO lag (important!). So it can actually be a pretty good recovery option.

I specifically mention that side B has good sides for recovery purposes, and that a rule that makes Ganondorf lose would negate this. While we do not want to buff characters with the rules, we also do not wish to nerf characters... Right? Or is that not the truth?

I pulled the comparison to Bowser because there was a rule that gave Bowser the advantage that would not be given to Ganondorf. I know that it happens through controller port, but there are already rules about controller ports in the ruleset. Yet, Bowser's case was still specifically mentioned. For Ganondorf, the case right now appears to be either random or character-specific... And if it is character-specific, we either lose or go to sudden death. There've only been a couple reports in this thread about us winning, and to be honest with you: I've been playing Ganondorf since the game came out and I NEVER won from a Ganoncide.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I want to clear this up.

I got this from the Genesis ruleset.

-Suicide Move Rules: (all situations are when both players are at 1 stock):
--If a player successfully ends the match with either Bowser or Ganondorf's over B attack by suicide, then the player who initiated the move wins.

Which is sort of hard to understand, because of this: (bold text)

-If a player ends the match by swallowing with Kirby or DDD and falling off the stage and the game counts it as a tie, the player who initiated the swallow move wins. If the player who was swallowed is shown as winning the match (in the instance the broke out right before they died which some people might not notice), then they win.

Will the bold text count for Gannoncide to? If a player is grabbed by Ganoncide breaks out, do they win? This should be cleared up now, before there becomes confusion in Genesis.

 

[Squirrely]

It makes sense to me if they somehow broke out, they should win.
It's rare enough that I wouldn't get upset if it happened.

If the opponent dies, Ganon wins, obviously.
If they both die, Ganon should win. Making him lose just doesn't make any sense to me at all, despite Amp's guessing.

 

[TP]

The rule for Bowser was created because the mechanic hinged on controller port position, giving one player a material advantage from the outset.

How is this any different? There are two factors that determine the outcome of a ganoncide: controller port and luck. Note that this IS luck. You can't be expected to control where you ganoncide from. We didn't even know the truth after a year of playing. It is NOT controllable. Neither port nor luck should affect the outcome of a match. Therefore, the same result should be obtained every time this happens.

This result that we always reach should be a win for Ganon. As others have said, calling it a lose nerfs an awful character. Note that, if the ruling is a win for Ganon, the other player only gets caught in it if he makes a mistake. As in, deserves to be punished.

 

[Squirrely]

And yet there's tripping. Losing because of luck will happen, unfortunately. :-/
But that's why we make rules that say otherwise.

 

[PK-ow!]

How is this any different? There are two factors that determine the outcome of a ganoncide: controller port and luck. Note that this IS luck. You can't be expected to control where you ganoncide from. We didn't even know the truth after a year of playing. It is NOT controllable. Neither port nor luck should affect the outcome of a match. Therefore, the same result should be obtained every time this happens.

Saying it's luck is to say that pseudorandomness is officially enough to warrant rules alteration.

I just don't see it.

If Amazing Ampharos is right that the outcome *is* deterministic, then we have nothing to whine about.

 

[TP]

Saying it's luck is to say that pseudorandomness is officially enough to warrant rules alteration.

I just don't see it.

If Amazing Ampharos is right that the outcome *is* deterministic, then we have nothing to whine about.

You just like disagreeing with the rest of this board, don't you?

 

[:034:]

Saying it's luck is to say that pseudorandomness is officially enough to warrant rules alteration.

I just don't see it.

But that's not the point!

Rules are being altered to exclude things like chance, luck-based things and the like. Think about banned stages. Items. ANY item. D3's throwing of the items is even taken care of!

Now there have been arguments against practically all of these, ITEMS in particular. When you think of the main 'anti-item' argument, it's "They're too random and luck-based". Pro-item will rebute with the fact that item spawn-points are set places, you can change what items will be in play etc.

But - they can NOT disprove the fact that even though the "randomness" of items can be changed and even studied, there is still chance involved, and with that, luck is too.

So they changed the rules, because of the chance and luck involved. Did it once, do it again.

 

[thexsunrosered]

this thread is so provacative o_O
on a side note: FD should be the Human Resources person for the ganon boards. His words are so fluid and true, and he's one of like, 4 good ganons that speak the english language well -.-

 

[:034:]

fd 4 sbr tbh

 

[Ant1]

Yeah FD can haz speak engrish goods!

 

[Browny]

lol shut up...
that was for the smash researchers

 

[:034:]

This thread is just so... intelligent

Spoiler

Protip: threads don't have actual intelligence. Do not be fooled.

 

[PK-ow!]

But that's not the point!

Rules are being altered to exclude things like chance, luck-based things and the like. Think about banned stages. Items. ANY item. D3's throwing of the items is even taken care of!

Now there have been arguments against practically all of these, ITEMS in particular. When you think of the main 'anti-item' argument, it's "They're too random and luck-based". Pro-item will rebute with the fact that item spawn-points are set places, you can change what items will be in play etc.

But - they can NOT disprove the fact that even though the "randomness" of items can be changed and even studied, there is still chance involved, and with that, luck is too.

So they changed the rules, because of the chance and luck involved. Did it once, do it again.

Yes, and those things are random, but the parity (even/odd value) of one's height from the blast zone in 'units' (the game's "Planck length," if you will) is not.


@Twilight Prince: I am sensing some hostility. I assure you I neither like or dislike agreeing with "these boards." I love the Truth; that's all that matters to me when it comes to facts.

EDIT: Ah, I must have been in a literal mood, then. It seems to be an effect of coming back from tests.

 

[TP]

@Twilight Prince: I am sensing some hostility. I assure you I neither like or dislike agreeing with "these boards." I love the Truth; that's all that matters to me when it comes to facts.

There was no hostility intended whatsoever. I apologize if I came off hostile.

Anyway, there is more to this move than meets the eye. SmashBrosForce has been active behind the scenes and he did what I could not: win with a Ganoncide. Admittedly, it was in sudden death only, but I never succeeded in winning a sudden death after 50 tests. SBForce, post your results here so all can see them, please.