New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[Starcutter]

Actually, I did.
As did someone before me.
DON'T BE SO DARN PRESUMPTUOUS

Oh I appologize, I thought I came up with the idea. Oh well...

This changes nothing, he's still my most wanted in project M.

 

[red9rd]

It might just be me...

but miis piss me the **** off

 

[Xinc]

It might just be me...

but miis piss me the **** off

I think I'd be pretty irritated too, at least at first.

 

[Malion]

It might just be me...

but miis piss me the **** off

me like mii but only when they are me.

 

[trojanpooh]

It might just be me...

but miis piss me the **** off

Pre Brawl I'd agree with you, but Miis have been in so many games now, even being the main character of some good ones (Nintendo Land and the Street Pass Games come to mind) that they have some of the biggest potential of any character for an awesome moveset. They're actually one of my most wanted newcomers for Smash 4.

 

[Starcutter]

As long as miis don't have those horrible voices from Mario kart wii it would't be that bad

 

[Anti Guy]

If the poll system here really is that crappy, I do understand not wanting to use it. But don't change the rules you've established after the fact, that really is what I found annoying about it.

If your counting all these names I apologize for implying they aren't real votes.

You mean:

1. Not allowing people to change their +1 votes, which hasn't really happened anyways?
2. Requiring new people to give reasons for their downvotes, which again didn't change much?

It's an unofficial poll, not a study. It isn't perfect, but I try to adjust it when it needs fixing. If there was anything that seriously would change things, then I would/should start a new one, but it hasn't come to that given how small the changes were.

 

[l3thargy]

You mean:

1. Not allowing people to change their +1 votes, which hasn't really happened anyways?
2. Requiring new people to give reasons for their downvotes, which again didn't change much?

It's an unofficial poll, not a study. It isn't perfect, but I try to adjust it when it needs fixing. If there was anything that seriously would change things, then I would/should start a new one, but it hasn't come to that given how small the changes were.

I was wondering wouldn't it be a better idea for you to make another thread just for voting no discussion involved and have this one or create another one just for discussion? that should make things easier then going through like 60+ pages to count up all the tallies would it not?

 

[Girth94]

He doesn't have any huge range. All his normal attacks are... normal attacks. Just imagine Mario fighting, but you make his arms and legs transparent. They could make it so that he has a little longer reach, kinda like less than swordslength, but proportion-wise, he's not Dhalsim. His attacks where he does stretch out are his projectile attacks, where he throws out his head. So yeah, not Olimar-like or anything.

Dude, that sounds exactly like Olimar with transparent (read: no hurt boxes) limbs. At best, it's Mario with a bit more range. I'm not inspired.

Also, isn't using your own body part as a "projectile" simply a long-range attack?. In order for a move to qualify as a projectile, wouldn't it have to generate an article? The move where Sakupon's head is thrown out sounds similar in function to Ivysaur's Up-B (except without the 45 degree angle), and I wouldn't consider that a projectile at all. Link's arrows and boomerang, Lucario's aura sphere, and Lucas's PK freeze are projectiles.

Anyway, you clearly like this character. Nothing I say's gonna change your mind.

 

[Anti Guy]

I was wondering wouldn't it be a better idea for you to make another thread just for voting no discussion involved and have this one or create another one just for discussion? that should make things easier then going through like 60+ pages to count up all the tallies would it not?

Nah it's fine. I've been tallying the votes as they've been coming in now, so no epic page-by-page tedium.

Dude, that sounds exactly like Olimar with transparent (read: no hurt boxes) limbs. At best, it's Mario with a bit more range. I'm not inspired.

Also, isn't using your own body part as a "projectile" simply a long-range attack?. In order for a move to qualify as a projectile, wouldn't it have to generate an article? The move where Sakupon's head is thrown out sounds similar in function to Ivysaur's Up-B (except without the 45 degree angle), and I wouldn't consider that a projectile at all. Link's arrows and boomerang, Lucario's aura sphere, and Lucas's PK freeze are projectiles.


Anyway, you clearly like this character. Nothing I say's gonna change your mind.

I'm not understanding your Olimar comparison here. He has no Pikmin. He doesn't throw things out with no hurtboxes. Olimar himself only attacks with his head. :\

He has two moves that are functionally long-range:

Tondekee - This is actually a projectile. He throws a copy of his head out. Separate article. No hurtbox. That's a projectile.

Konnan Irahen - He throws his head out for a shorter distance and pulls it back. This isn't a projectile, and would have a hurtbox.



Outside of konnan irahen and konnan irahen only, there is no hurtbox issue. And outside of special moves, most regular attacks are going to be just that, regular attacks. Punches and kicks. Look at Samus, she mainly punches and kicks. Captain Falcon punches and kicks.

I'm just trying to clarify it, because your downvote is based off a misconception.

 

[mikeyn1gm]

Dude, that sounds exactly like Olimar with transparent (read: no hurt boxes) limbs. At best, it's Mario with a bit more range. I'm not inspired.

Also, isn't using your own body part as a "projectile" simply a long-range attack?. In order for a move to qualify as a projectile, wouldn't it have to generate an article? The move where Sakupon's head is thrown out sounds similar in function to Ivysaur's Up-B (except without the 45 degree angle), and I wouldn't consider that a projectile at all. Link's arrows and boomerang, Lucario's aura sphere, and Lucas's PK freeze are projectiles.

Anyway, you clearly like this character. Nothing I say's gonna change your mind.

I saw a few Skapon fights............That dude's pretty Dhalsim lol. Waaay more reach then Rayman. has a nice and funny personality too with his fighting (dancing lol). Although I honestly may sound harsh in my downvote, I still don't think the character will be more appealing/desired than the others for the limited space in PM.

As far as new Series rep goes........It seems to be going towards the favor of "Golden Sun" and "Sin & Punishment" which makes sense and I predicted it too. I'm surprised to not see much with "Custom Robo" as I thought that would naturally be the 3rd

 

[mikeyn1gm]

*Post Deleted*

sorry, still rusty with this forum

 

[Generically Epic]

As long as miis don't have those horrible voices from Mario kart wii it would't be that bad

actually, I will give you that...
But still, I find that Miis are important to nintendo and should not be ignored. There's so much to use.

 

[mikeyn1gm]

actually, I will give you that...
But still, I find that Miis are important to nintendo and should not be ignored. There's so much to use.

I know they are not going to be used for PM......but if they think about it for SSB4....I hope its nothing further then an Assist Trophy or Stage Cameo

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Does anyone know how to search for your own posts within a single thread? I want to make a tiny update to my votes but I think this knowledge would make it easier. Thanks in advance if anyone answers me.

 

[shinhed-echi]

The only ONLY downvote from me would be -Black Shadow / Ganondorf.

I would give Ganondorf a 1/2 vote if I could just vote for the "stance change" mechanic to be given to him as well.

Now with Samus being able to switch between Plasma and Ice beams, there's no reason why Ganondorf couldn't gain some new properties/range/moves from this NEW mechanic.. Ergo, Black Shadow is not needed to be shoehorned into the game now just to make Ganon look better.


As for Skapon.

Just because he has a LONG reach, it doesn't mean it can't be easily balanced out in other areas. Thickness of hitboxes, actual power of the moves, afterlag, etc.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

So, I would like to post a more thorough version of my Masked Man moveset (mMMm for short) from a ways back. Feel free to take a gander at any of these three sections.

I tried to visualize several possibilites for certain moves, so just about every moveslot listed has several potential moves listed under it. I also tried to keep in mind that the Masked Man has a big advantage in borrowed animations and designs that really help him out as a candidate. All the same, I did mention some original ideas, because it would certainly be nice to make him as unique as possible.

Warning, physics and character attributes abound:

Spoiler

Stance:
The question here is whether he'll keep his sword drawn all the time (or at least most of the time). My personal vote would be yes, if it were possible.
There are certain moves I'll discuss, such as Upsmash, that might require him to put away the sword.
Just to clarify, the arm cannon is attached to the right hand, so sword techniques will use the left.

Next I'll be expounding on his potential jumping abilities:
Base 1: Standard PSI jump set, with all the perks involved. Probably the most metagame-enhancing, safe pick.
Base 2: Meta-Knight-style, 3 midair jumps. Thought I'd mention it, but it would seem to have less depth, require more animation effort, and be a little out-of-line with how the wings are just used to glide with the jetpack.
Weird-ish idea: PSI jump, with a single bat-wing-jetpack jump on top of that. Could create some interesting follow-ups to rising aerials, but could also introduce a lot of other imbalances and be technically unfeasible or not worth the effort. Or it could be just plain weird.

On the subject of the wings, if at all possible I would give preference to uses of the wings that left them as static objects. It lines up with the games just fine and prevents them from being a hassle to the animators.

Glide: A glide would certainly be possible within these bounds, and give some unique gameplay aspects to the Masked Man. A glide attack would be easy enough, simply a stab or slash forward. Whether it would be particularly fair hinges somewhat on my next subject:

Grab:
Mini-grapple beam, or other similar device used via his arm cannon. Not from the game, and could be seen as copying Samus, but within reason.
The Masked Man lacks a canon equivalent to the Rope Snake, so some other normal grab would be just as fitting. The only problem is that this might require him to put away the sword if that were his default stance.
If a normal grab is opted for, this could possibly open up the option of a glide to make up for lack of a tether recovery.
Pummel could be a headbutt for no animation time cost(also for putting that helmet to good use) or a punch with the arm cannon.
Giving him Lucas's telekinetic throws seems fair enough, but there could very well be some good unique ones as well.

Used this page for reference, it might be a little outdated, but it should hold true for the overall semblance of Lucas's physics stats:
http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-3849.html
Lucas already has awesome physics, so hopefully they can be changed to be unique but still just as fun to use. I personally think the best choice would be rather moderate stat changes overall, since he'll have a lot of other differences, but if more extreme measures are needed for balance and/or variety I have listed some of them as well.
Fewer specific changes in mind here, just pointing out areas that could be changed. By no means is this meant to be a definitive list, and I make no claims that it is flawlessly designed.
-He could arguably be lighter or heavier than Lucas, who ranks in at the same weight as Pikachu, but that seems like a decently balanced weight already.
-Could also have a slower dash speed, if necessary, possibly about as fast as Ness or Bowser (which would be in between Lucas and Ness). If major game changers are needed he could be slowed even more.
-Lower initial jump height, possibly lower double jump as well. Or, could be higher too if he was more vertically focused. Same short hop.
-Aerial mobility (see linked smashmods post for an explanation) and max air speed are good points to change. Lucas has very high mobility, which could be toned down, and a fairly decent max air speed, which could be increased in the case of an aerial mobility drop.
-Lucas's falling speed seems about right where it's at, although I suppose it could stand being slightly higher for the Masked Man. I was thinking an increase in fast-falling speed (good on Lucas, but not at the top by any means) might give the Masked Man an interesting tool. I'm unsure precisely how much this would effect DJC's, if it would have any major effect at all, but it might be in order if other areas of mobility were cut down. Think of it like Roy's movement is to Marth's for this one, I guess.
-No particular changes in mind for jump momentum, given Lucas's fairly decent but not stellar stat for it, but that's one possibility to change as well.
-Jump startup I'm also unsure of, since it would make some sense to add an extra frame a la Falco and Roy, but that's going to change up a lot of DACUS stuff as well. Maybe that's part of the strength in changing it, I guess.
-I'd like the same wavedash, although if I must follow the trend of presenting possible physics balances, it could be slightly reduced without much trouble.
-Could have a longer/shorter opening dash for a change in dashdancing game

Here's my old post on a possible moveset, I've edited it a little recently, so any new ideas should be underlined and bolded. Astounding.

Spoiler

Here’s a decent video for showcasing the Masked Man, no story spoilers and it should show you what I’m visualizing for some things; it does lack the flashier intense bolt of lightning and PK Love animations, as well as the jetpack, but those are shown in more spoilerish story points so I’ve decided not to include them:

-Usmash: Lucas’s with possible slight changes to power, speed, etc, as balance and character variance dictates.
-Dsmash: Shoots an electric blast at the ground from his arm cannon, similar to Lucas. I’m visualizing a similar animation, as well. Could have an optional second hit, like Lucas, or just a single one.
-Fsmash: 2 possible ideas:
Cloned version: Lucas’s Fsmash, pretty much. They’d both swing it left-handed, so little animation work.
Original version: An overhead slash with a lunge forward, similarly to his battle opener in the video. The lunge would probably need to be less of a jump and more of a step forward.

-Neutral B: 3 possible ideas:
-Cloned version: Take offense up or a version thereof because powering up smashes is frankly quite cool. Not really supported by in-game events, but neither are half of Lucas’s moves. If another move is chosen instead, it would certainly make sense to place the Masked Man's power for each smash in between Lucas's base power and offense up power.
-Cloned version-Ness: Think similar to Ness’s, but goes slightly higher and on detonation, a lightning bolt is released towards the ground, causing a burst of energy. My perceived problems with this would be really dumb edge guarding situations. Uses the little sequence of sword swipes as the charging animation, probably.
-Original version: Charges up lightning in his sword, which upon full charge can be released as a lightning bolt that strikes directly in front of him, hits enemies in an area in front of him, or possibly shoots out from him in a straight line. The lightning bolt could be an extended hitbox, or an article of it's own. An article might be possible if the vBrawl PK freeze is still available for modification along with offense up. Another possibility would be to pull PK thunder off of up-b and use it for this move, if that is at all possible.
-Combination: Charges up lightning in his sword, which can be released as the previously discussed lightning bolt, like a powerful variation of Lucas’s little offense-up burst attack, but also powers up his smashes.
Possible balance tweaks:
Upsmash could possibly remain unaffected (but remain in-between normal Lucas and offense up Lucas in terms of power)
Longer charge time
Lightning bolt puts him back to 50% charge on hit, and 0% on miss

-Up B: Jetpack
I was personally thinking like Lucario’s Up B, except slower and greater distance.
Could also be:
Like Diddy’s recovery
A toned-down version of Rob’s vBrawl recovery
Similar to the spacies' recovery

This will probably need a new animation, and the difficulty will likely lie in the wings folding out for flight, but beyond that the Masked Man will not move much and take on a relatively simplistic pose, especially if the wings remain static.
Edit: This video has the jetpack:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcbGp2VgJbM

-Side B: Shoots a beam from his arm cannon.
Similar in behavior to Lucas’s PK Freeze but likely with more range and power in exchange for startup/endlag. Speed will probably be similar.
Other ideas:
Possibly can shoot two in quick succession as a reference to his ability to attack twice in one turn in-game?
Can hold B to charge up the move?

-Down B: Shield killer- 2 possible ideas
-Cloned version: Same graphic as Lucas’s PSI magnet, except it extends from the end of his arm cannon and is orange. The repeated hitbox while held does slightly more shield damage than PSI magnet, but not very much to avoid balance issues. The hitbox on release does moderate shield damage.
Possible balance tweaks: Magnet pull distance is reduced and release has 1-2 extra start/end frames. Possibly different knockback or knockback angle.
Is restricted to blocking projectiles instead of absorption, or even ignores projectiles altogether.
-Original version: A little less sure about this. Purely offensive, perhaps a new graphic involving psychedelic orange lines, and nukes shields. Moderate startup or endlag, probably less of a shield pressure tool than a punishment on shields.

Now to fill out the rest of his moves (normals and aerials):

Spoiler

-Jab:
1-hit jab with cannon, or stab with the sword
2-hit cannon-sword combo
3-hit based on "lightning shooting series" (slashes from high left to low right, straight up, then from high right to point in line)
Loop-able 2-hit (a la Marth), based on that same series (slashes from high left to low right, then from high right to low left)

-Ftilt:
See last two jab ideas
Lunge lunges forward with an angle-able stab.
Horizontal slash, using a base animation from Lucas's ftilt or fsmash (sped up, and only in the case of there not already being fsmash)

-Dtilt:
Could actually be a kick or something, taken from Lucas with a different knockback angle.
Something similar to MK/Marth/Roy, crouching stab/sweep. Inner hitboxes could be a meteor or a vertical launcher, outer hitboxes could push them away.

-Uptilt:
Stabs/slashes above his head
Slashes upwards, starting at a medium height in front of him and arcing over his head

-Dash attack:
Arm cannon version of Lucas's dash attack. Maybe have the short ranged blast, maybe just make the cannon electrified. Nothing too special. It is nevertheless a dashing laser cannon punch, though, so that might be an inaccurate statement.

-Nair:
Base animation: Ness's nair, although maybe less slanted

Basic version: does a sword spin, sort of like Marth/Roy, but only one rotation
Complex version: Same animation, but holds his cannon out for an additional hitbox. Each hand will have a different use, but they do swap sides during the animation so timing and spacing would be crucial.
Building on that, the cannon could have a little close-range blast, similar to Samus's fair, as mentioned, that it traces out as it goes along for a neat visual effect.
From here, there are a lot of hitbox possibilities. The sword would be fairly standard, and possibly be weaker on the back swing, but obviously have the most range, while the cannon and body hitbox(if any) could be a sourspot and deal weak damage/knockback (possibly usable in combos) and the blast could launch vertically for combos, horizontally for a KO, or even spike/strong meteor or something. Might be overkill, of course.
My favorite idea for this is a spike, strong meteor, or strong low angle on the front blast hitbox, which is delayed and difficult to hit with, but a vertical/high-angle launcher on the back cannon-blast hitbox.

-Fair:
Base animation: Ness's fair
It seemed fitting enough to give a PSI character a multi-hitting tool for use with DJC. I would say a significantly smaller hitbox/less priority than Ness's, and maybe have a launching hit at the end of the move, which would allow for some combo possibilities, and improve it as an option on shields, and if used with a DJC the last hit could be cancelled. Overall, this would be a fusion of Lucas's nair and Ness's fair, so it would be balanced accordingly.
Uses either electricity or PK Hexagon effects, from his hands or from the arm cannon, or both because you can't really tell the difference anyways.
Could also kick like Lucas, or stab/slash forwards to the same effect

-Bair:
Slashes in an arc (sort of tracing Lucas's bair except low to high) while turning around to cover the area behind him. Likely not KO-power knockback, and probably at a moderate upwards knockback angle. I would see it being used in conjunction with the turnaround as a decent setup move.
I'm a little wary of having another KO tool for bair when so many other characters have one like it, but that's also possible
Same kick as Lucas, or a similar backstroke sword sweep
Same kick as Ness or points his arm cannon behind him and unleashes a blast of energy with similar behavior

-Upair:
Meta Knight-esque sweep above his head. Presumably would juggle quite well.
Headbutt, like Lucas/Ness

-Dair:
Sweeps arm cannon below him, shooting a burst as it faces perpendicularly down. This would act as the move's sweetspot and logically be a meteor. Would lack the speed and ease of use of Ness's dair, and the safety from above compared to Lucas's, but have some arc coverage and above-average power.
Could also use a MK vBrawl-style dair. Whether the knockback more resembles MK or Roy/Marth would be difficult to tell.
I could see a modified copy of Ness's or Lucas's dair here as well.

So yeah. Not really a singular moveset but here it is.

tl;dr: Moveset Potential

Anybody who would care to make suggestions or critiques is certainly welcome to do so.

 

[GunBuster]

this is starting to get a little dumb guys. i know that you are all enjoying your "outside the box" thinking right now, but can we please have a bit of rational speculation now and then?

let's consider the following points.

1. the PMBR are now limited to 5 new characters with the clone engine.
2. whether or not they choose to use all 5 yet is still not decided.
3. additional 3rd party characters have been all but completely ruled out, so no more sonic suggestions, PLEASE.
4. the ability to cut any corners while making any of them with pre-existing materials will most likely be valued.
5. "clone" characters will probably be what are produced, so let's consider which of the existing franchises actually warrant another rep.

rationally, i think that the following series don't need any more reps:
-any game series' that have more than 3 reps already - zelda (5), pokemon (7!), mario (6 - including wario and yoshi, that is. i think they warrant inclusion as they are still rather lodged in the mario games, although to an admittedly lesser extent with wario)

-any game series that has few to no other characters worth bringing over (kirby, ice climbers)

-any game series that has other characters not already present in brawl in some way that additionally DON'T have a chance of appearing in smash 4 (again kirby, kid icarus )

-gimmick/fanservice/joke/whatever you want to call them characters, that aren't actually a series. (rob, mr game and watch)

so we are left with:
Fzero
Metroid
Donkey Kong (the inclusion of diddy kong in br awl warrants separation from mario, in my opinion)
Mother
Pikmin
Starfox
Fire Emblem


F-zero is a must, no questions. hell, at this point i'd admit black shadow inheriting SOME of ganon's moves would be an interesting make - but ganon has made some of the moves his own, and it wouldn't be the same to completely strip him of his notfalcon moveset.

metroid - another high priority. if ridley can be scaled right, i'm all for it - but i have to admit i'd rather see what they could do with dark samus.

mother, donkey kong and pikmin have had minimal/no discussion in this thread, so to be honest i don't see much point in expanding their rosters... pikmin in particular. mother is also rather niche for nintendo, and donkey kong might have more reps in smash 4.

star fox - "NOT ANOTHER LANDMASTER" is all I'm hearing concerning this, and i'm pretty sure there's been no discussion outside of krystal in this thread. and we've seen how popular she's been...

fire emblem - the big one. this year the release of FE: Awakening has really pushed the franchise into the spotlight and saved it from being a binned IP, and has seen a rather large surge of popularity (enough for Figma/amiami to release a goddamn poly statue of the darkmage Tharja). based on this alone, i believe it's more than deserving of another slot on the clone engine. we all know how supportive I've been of the idea of Lyndis joining the fight (sword complainees, take a number), as i believe she offers more than enough to separate herself from the other FE lords present in the game - even moreso with the revealing of samus's ammo/moveset altering through her side taunt. There has been more than enough discussion in this thread alone of the possibility (it is also still purely baffling that the first FE game released in the west doesn't have anything outside of an assist trophy for an in-game rep). having existing materials for her in game helps too. sure, FE as a franchise still isn't anywhere near the mass of the three nintendo heavyweights mario, pokemon and zelda, but it has regained a considerable amount of lost ground over the years and then some. (which i believe started with FE10... michiah, *cough cough*)

so Fzero, metroid, and fire emblem are the main contendors. golden sun's isaac has been another, while we have one more series.

some food for thought.

 

[Fortress]

>No more characters from a series with three or more characters
>Wants another spacie
>Wants more Fire Emblem

>No characters from a series with no other worthwhile mentions
>Wants another character from Pikmin

Those are the only two things I really disagree with.

And, besides, since when was Fire Emblem ever in any danger of being a 'binned IP'? Hasn't it been around since the ****ing stone age? It even had its own short-lived manga and anime, for Ashera's sake.

 

[trojanpooh]

He's actually right about that bit. Fire Emblem hasn't been selling well recently and Awakening was the teams last chance. It was in an Iwata Asks or something.

 

[GunBuster]

>No more characters from a series with three or more characters
>Wants another spacie
>Wants more Fire Emblem

>No characters from a series with no other worthwhile mentions
>Wants another character from Pikmin

Those are the only two things I really disagree with.

And, besides, since when was Fire Emblem ever in any danger of being a 'binned IP'? Hasn't it been around since the ****ing stone age? It even had its own short-lived manga and anime, for Ashera's sake.

no, i was pointing out while starfox is eligeble with the perameters i set, it's a pretty unpopular descision. FE is the opposite, however.

who would you have from pikmin? louie? the president? they'd have to function exactly like olimar, and there would be little to no room for unique characteristics here.

fire emblem awakening was going to be the last in the series if it preformed poorly like a number of it's predecessors.

http://www.siliconera.com/2013/05/25/fire-emblem-awakening-was-almost-the-last-game-in-the-series/

 

[PsionicSabreur]

this is starting to get a little dumb guys. i know that you are all enjoying your "outside the box" thinking right now, but can we please have a bit of rational speculation now and then?

let's consider the following points.

1. the PMBR are now limited to 5 new characters with the clone engine.
2. whether or not they choose to use all 5 yet is still not decided.
3. additional 3rd party characters have been all but completely ruled out, so no more sonic suggestions, PLEASE.
4. the ability to cut any corners while making any of them with pre-existing materials will most likely be valued.
5. "clone" characters will probably be what are produced, so let's consider which of the existing franchises actually warrant another rep.

rationally, i think that the following series don't need any more reps:
-any game series' that have more than 3 reps already - zelda (5), pokemon (7!), mario (6 - including wario and yoshi, that is. i think they warrant inclusion as they are still rather lodged in the mario games, although to an admittedly lesser extent with wario)
-any game series that has few to no other characters worth bringing over (kirby, ice climbers)


F-zero is a must, no questions. hell, at this point i'd admit black shadow inheriting SOME of ganon's moves would be an interesting make - but ganon has made some of the moves his own, and it wouldn't be the same to completely strip him of his notfalcon moveset.

metroid - another high priority. if ridley can be scaled right, i'm all for it - but i have to admit i'd rather see what they could do with dark samus.

I take it you're calling out the moveset ideas as "dumb," and "irrational," but in all honesty they're intended for discussion and to get a better idea of what a candidate could be capable of, and whether they would be a good fit in a competitive metagame.
Just about every bit of your "rational speculation" is about representation, something that has been disagreed upon by numerous people in this thread. This is especially true given that a lot of people don't want a character that is a forced clone of another.

Labeling these other arguments as irrational is not getting you anywhere.

mother, donkey kong and pikmin have had minimal/no discussion in this thread, so to be honest i don't see much point in expanding their rosters...

Not really sure which thread you've been reading.
Not to mention until recently Isaac, Lyn, and Ridley had hardly been discussed except "oh, yeah, I like them," and the occasional moveset proposition.

 

[GunBuster]

>No more characters from a series with three or more characters
>Wants another spacie
>Wants more Fire Emblem

also, I specified that the franchise should have more than 3 existing characters to be discounted... implying 4 reps should be the max for a fairly popular franchise in smash. Lyndis would be the 4th for fire emblem

 

[Fortress]

who would you have from pikmin? louie? the president? they'd have to function exactly like olimar, and there would be little to no room for unique characteristics here.

That's... exactly what I was saying. Who else in Pikmin matters? You'd said something or other about wanting a character from a franchise that can bring something to the table, and then you mention Pikmin of all games as a franchise from which to draw from.

 

[GunBuster]

That's... exactly what I was saying. Who else in Pikmin matters? You'd said something or other about wanting a character from a franchise that can bring something to the table, and then you mention Pikmin of all games as a franchise from which to draw from.

that's what i typed to begin with.

"mother, donkey kong and pikmin have had minimal/no discussion in this thread, so to be honest i don't see much point in expanding their rosters... pikmin in particular." (though i seem to be wrong about mother, where the heck did all that come from...)

please excuse the shoddy quoting, i am not completely down with this formatting thing yet.

 

[Chzrm3]

mother, donkey kong and pikmin have had minimal/no discussion in this thread, so to be honest i don't see much point in expanding their rosters...

Ahh, I can't get behind this. Sorry!

The DK snub is too harsh, and that reasoning doesn't make sense. There's been plenty of talking about DK reps in this thread. K. Rool, Dixie, heck even Funky and Lanky! There is the chance that DK is getting more reps in Smash 4, but to me that only means "save them 'till later". Maybe work on Lyn and Ridley for now, and then when Smash 4 is released those guys will probably be done and the work on Dixie can begin in earnest.

I definitely feel that both Metroid and DK deserve a third character. Both of those franchises are massive and extremely popular. It's really weird for them to be sitting at 2, and I think that's something the PM team can fix.

 

[Fortress]

Gomar & Shioh for F-Zero Icy clone, please.

 

[Generically Epic]

Personally, I'd love an MU (avatar or robin) character from fire emblem. It would be nice to represent the more magic side of fe. Also, tacticians use magic aaaand swords. :3
Magic has a bit more variety for potential moves. Nosferatu could steal hp. You have mire, that hits far away. You have wind, fire, and lightning magic. Some abilities could be used. Like astra, multi hit attack. Vengence, get hurt, no knockback, but double the damage back to them. Etc.

however, I'm not sure if any of the MUs are in brawl... maybe as a sticker? I believe MU is at least mentioned...

 

[Shin F.]

I was looking over my other post, and I realized I could probably have formatted my Ninten +1 reasoning more like the ones in the OP, so I decided to go on ahead and do that.

Ninten (Mother / EarthBound Zero)

(Full size image here: http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20131102064529/fantendo/images/d/d1/NintenRim.png)

Value: B (Important to the series as a whole, but in a saturated series)
Effort: A (Psuedoclone. Luigified Ness/Lucas, easy model / texture edit of Ness, can borrow many moves from them while having his own, unique divergences.)

Background/Reasons: The only main Mother character still not playable, and the star of the first game. Not a walking spoiler. To prevent him looking too similarly to Ness, he can wear his clothes from the live commercial rather than his official art.

Moveset: Most normal moves and animations can be cloned from Ness and Lucas. The specials could as well, but if they weren't cloned then they would revolve around buffs and shields. Quick Up (temporary speed increase), Power Shield (which blocks physical rather than energy attacks), PSI Hypnosis (like Jigglypuff's Sing), 4th-D Slip (Teleports), and PK Beam (Unique to Earthbound Zero) are ideal techniques, though he also has a boomerang and a slingshot.

As a Final Smash, he could have either PK Beam or a combination of PSI Life Up and a number of Shields that would heal him completely and give him temporary invulnerability. Maybe add some buffs like Offense Up and Quick Up to make him faster and stronger during this period a la Wario Man. Finally, he could have Brain Cyclone as a Final Smash, which would work in three waves radiating from him. The first would spike characters it hits down, the second would stun them, and the third would have large knockback.

Pros
Important character from his series.
Luigifiable.
Would smoothly round out the reps from the Mother Trilogy. (Not a walking spoiler.)
Appears in Brawl as a sticker.
So many Mother fans. Feed their voracious hunger.

Cons
From a small series that already has two reps.
No voice clips, but could remain silent or borrow generic voice clips from Ness' old appearances in 64 and Melee.

 

[GunBuster]

Ahh, I can't get behind this. Sorry!

The DK snub is too harsh, and that reasoning doesn't make sense. There's been plenty of talking about DK reps in this thread.

you know what? i seem to be getting websites and threads confused... apologies for that, everyone. i thought the general consensus was that it's a pretty unspectacular idea.

I have to say another DK rep from the Rare era would be pretty neat in all honesty.

 

[Fortress]

Magic has a bit more variety for potential moves. Nosferatu could steal hp. You have mire, that hits far away. You have wind, fire, and lightning magic. Some abilities could be used. Like astra, multi hit attack. Vengence, get hurt, no knockback, but double the damage back to them. Etc.

You had me at 'mage' <3

Another 'Zelda' in the mix? Sign me up.

 

[GunBuster]

p

Personally, I'd love an MU (avatar or robin) character from fire emblem. It would be nice to represent the more magic side of fe. Also, tacticians use magic aaaand swords. :3
Magic has a bit more variety for potential moves. Nosferatu could steal hp. You have mire, that hits far away. You have wind, fire, and lightning magic. Some abilities could be used. Like astra, multi hit attack. Vengence, get hurt, no knockback, but double the damage back to them. Etc.

however, I'm not sure if any of the MUs are in brawl... maybe as a sticker? I believe MU is at least mentioned...

no, japan had one in FE12 in 2010 and Awakening MU was only introduced last year. as far as i know, those are the only two instances of "my unit".

 

[Chzrm3]

you know what? i seem to be getting websites and threads confused... apologies for that, everyone. i thought the general consensus was that it's a pretty unspectacular idea.

I have to say another DK rep from the Rare era would be pretty neat in all honesty.

Haha, no worries. As you can see from my profile, I'm extremely biased towards DK. : > And I really liked all the other things you said. I just always have to stick up for DK. =)

 

[mikeyn1gm]

IF there was a 4th kirby character put into SSB4........Do think Knuckle Joe is getting in? or will Bandana Dee steal it? (Because of Kirby:Return to Dreamland) even though Waddle Dees are used projectiles by DeDeDe

 

[Chzrm3]

Waddle Dee with a spear and Knuckle Joe with his martial arts both seem like they'd be pretty fun playstyles. I don't care about either of the characters very much, but I've always wanted a spear-character.

 

[trojanpooh]

IF there was a 4th kirby character put into SSB4........Do think Knuckle Joe is getting in? or will Bandana Dee steal it? (Because of Kirby:Return to Dreamland) even though Waddle Dees are used projectiles by DeDeDe

Of those two I'd rather have Bandana Dee.

 

[AnOkayDM]

Of those two I'd rather have Bandana Dee.

As would I. A spear-user would be interesting and since he was in RtDL he basically has a Smash moveset already.

 

[Solbliminal]

Daroachhhhh anyone?

 

[red9rd]

I was looking over my other post, and I realized I could probably have formatted my Ninten +1 reasoning more like the ones in the OP, so I decided to go on ahead and do that.

Ninten (Mother / EarthBound Zero)

(Full size image here: http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20131102064529/fantendo/images/d/d1/NintenRim.png)

Value: B (Important to the series as a whole, but in a saturated series)
Effort: A (Psuedoclone. Luigified Ness/Lucas, easy model / texture edit of Ness, can borrow many moves from them while having his own, unique divergences.)

Background/Reasons: The only main Mother character still not playable, and the star of the first game. Not a walking spoiler. To prevent him looking too similarly to Ness, he can wear his clothes from the live commercial rather than his official art.

Moveset: Most normal moves and animations can be cloned from Ness and Lucas. The specials could as well, but if they weren't cloned then they would revolve around buffs and shields. Quick Up (temporary speed increase), Power Shield (which blocks physical rather than energy attacks), PSI Hypnosis (like Jigglypuff's Sing), 4th-D Slip (Teleports), and PK Beam (Unique to Earthbound Zero) are ideal techniques, though he also has a boomerang and a slingshot. As a Final Smash, he could have either PK Beam or a combination of PSI Life Up and a number of Shields that would heal him completely and give him temporary invulnerability. Maybe add some buffs like Offense Up and Quick Up to make him faster and stronger during this period a la Wario Man.

Pros
Important character from his series.
Luigifiable.
Would smoothly round out the reps from the Mother Trilogy. (Not a walking spoiler.)
Appears in Brawl as a sticker.
So many Mother fans. Feed their voracious hunger.

Cons
From a small series that already has two reps.
No voice clips, but could remain silent or borrow generic voice clips from Ness' old appearances in 64 and Melee.

Another character from Mother would be Awesome and the move ideas were cool, but in my opinion I think it would be better to have a PK/PSI Main, a weapon main, a thief, or a villain instead.

 

[splat]

Daroachhhhh anyone?

Daroach no-one.

For Kirby it's Bandana Dee or bust.