New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[red9rd]

So, I would like to post a more thorough version of my Masked Man moveset (mMMm for short) from a ways back. Feel free to take a gander at any of these three sections.

I tried to visualize several possibilites for certain moves, so just about every moveslot listed has several potential moves listed under it. I also tried to keep in mind that the Masked Man has a big advantage in borrowed animations and designs that really help him out as a candidate. All the same, I did mention some original ideas, because it would certainly be nice to make him as unique as possible.

Warning, physics and character attributes abound:

Spoiler

Stance:
The question here is whether he'll keep his sword drawn all the time (or at least most of the time). My personal vote would be yes, if it were possible.
There are certain moves I'll discuss, such as Upsmash, that might require him to put away the sword.
Just to clarify, the arm cannon is attached to the right hand, so sword techniques will use the left.

Next I'll be expounding on his potential jumping abilities:
Base 1: Standard PSI jump set, with all the perks involved. Probably the most metagame-enhancing, safe pick.
Base 2: Meta-Knight-style, 3 midair jumps. Thought I'd mention it, but it would seem to have less depth, require more animation effort, and be a little out-of-line with how the wings are just used to glide with the jetpack.
Weird-ish idea: PSI jump, with a single bat-wing-jetpack jump on top of that. Could create some interesting follow-ups to rising aerials, but could also introduce a lot of other imbalances and be technically unfeasible or not worth the effort. Or it could be just plain weird.

On the subject of the wings, if at all possible I would give preference to uses of the wings that left them as static objects. It lines up with the games just fine and prevents them from being a hassle to the animators.

Glide: A glide would certainly be possible within these bounds, and give some unique gameplay aspects to the Masked Man. A glide attack would be easy enough, simply a stab or slash forward. Whether it would be particularly fair hinges somewhat on my next subject:

Grab:
Mini-grapple beam, or other similar device used via his arm cannon. Not from the game, and could be seen as copying Samus, but within reason.
The Masked Man lacks a canon equivalent to the Rope Snake, so some other normal grab would be just as fitting. The only problem is that this might require him to put away the sword if that were his default stance.
If a normal grab is opted for, this could possibly open up the option of a glide to make up for lack of a tether recovery.
Pummel could be a headbutt for no animation time cost(also for putting that helmet to good use) or a punch with the arm cannon.
Giving him Lucas's telekinetic throws seems fair enough, but there could very well be some good unique ones as well.

Used this page for reference, it might be a little outdated, but it should hold true for the overall semblance of Lucas's physics stats:
http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-3849.html
Lucas already has awesome physics, so hopefully they can be changed to be unique but still just as fun to use. I personally think the best choice would be rather moderate stat changes overall, since he'll have a lot of other differences, but if more extreme measures are needed for balance and/or variety I have listed some of them as well.
Fewer specific changes in mind here, just pointing out areas that could be changed. By no means is this meant to be a definitive list, and I make no claims that it is flawlessly designed.
-He could arguably be lighter or heavier than Lucas, who ranks in at the same weight as Pikachu, but that seems like a decently balanced weight already.
-Could also have a slower dash speed, if necessary, possibly about as fast as Ness or Bowser (which would be in between Lucas and Ness). If major game changers are needed he could be slowed even more.
-Lower initial jump height, possibly lower double jump as well. Or, could be higher too if he was more vertically focused. Same short hop.
-Aerial mobility (see linked smashmods post for an explanation) and max air speed are good points to change. Lucas has very high mobility, which could be toned down, and a fairly decent max air speed, which could be increased in the case of an aerial mobility drop.
-Lucas's falling speed seems about right where it's at, although I suppose it could stand being slightly higher for the Masked Man. I was thinking an increase in fast-falling speed (good on Lucas, but not at the top by any means) might give the Masked Man an interesting tool. I'm unsure precisely how much this would effect DJC's, if it would have any major effect at all, but it might be in order if other areas of mobility were cut down. Think of it like Roy's movement is to Marth's for this one, I guess.
-No particular changes in mind for jump momentum, given Lucas's fairly decent but not stellar stat for it, but that's one possibility to change as well.
-Jump startup I'm also unsure of, since it would make some sense to add an extra frame a la Falco and Roy, but that's going to change up a lot of DACUS stuff as well. Maybe that's part of the strength in changing it, I guess.
-I'd like the same wavedash, although if I must follow the trend of presenting possible physics balances, it could be slightly reduced without much trouble.
-Could have a longer/shorter opening dash for a change in dashdancing game

Here's my old post on a possible moveset, I've edited it a little recently, so any new ideas should be underlined and bolded. Astounding.


Now to fill out the rest of his moves (normals and aerials):

Spoiler

-Jab:
1-hit jab with cannon, or stab with the sword
2-hit cannon-sword combo
3-hit based on "lightning shooting series" (slashes from high left to low right, straight up, then from high right to point in line)
Loop-able 2-hit (a la Marth), based on that same series (slashes from high left to low right, then from high right to low left)

-Ftilt:
See last two jab ideas
Lunge lunges forward with an angle-able stab.
Horizontal slash, using a base animation from Lucas's ftilt or fsmash (sped up, and only in the case of there not already being fsmash)

-Dtilt:
Could actually be a kick or something, taken from Lucas with a different knockback angle.
Something similar to MK/Marth/Roy, crouching stab/sweep. Inner hitboxes could be a meteor or a vertical launcher, outer hitboxes could push them away.

-Uptilt:
Stabs/slashes above his head
Slashes upwards, starting at a medium height in front of him and arcing over his head

-Dash attack:
Arm cannon version of Lucas's dash attack. Maybe have the short ranged blast, maybe just make the cannon electrified. Nothing too special. It is nevertheless a dashing laser cannon punch, though, so that might be an inaccurate statement.

-Nair:
Base animation: Ness's nair, although maybe less slanted

Basic version: does a sword spin, sort of like Marth/Roy, but only one rotation
Complex version: Same animation, but holds his cannon out for an additional hitbox. Each hand will have a different use, but they do swap sides during the animation so timing and spacing would be crucial.
Building on that, the cannon could have a little close-range blast, similar to Samus's fair, as mentioned, that it traces out as it goes along for a neat visual effect.
From here, there are a lot of hitbox possibilities. The sword would be fairly standard, and possibly be weaker on the back swing, but obviously have the most range, while the cannon and body hitbox(if any) could be a sourspot and deal weak damage/knockback (possibly usable in combos) and the blast could launch vertically for combos, horizontally for a KO, or even spike/strong meteor or something. Might be overkill, of course.
My favorite idea for this is a spike, strong meteor, or strong low angle on the front blast hitbox, which is delayed and difficult to hit with, but a vertical/high-angle launcher on the back cannon hitbox.

-Fair:
Base animation: Ness's fair
It seemed fitting enough to give a PSI character a multi-hitting tool for use with DJC. I would say a significantly smaller hitbox/less priority than Ness's, and maybe have a launching hit at the end of the move, which would allow for some combo possibilities, and improve it as an option on shields, and if used with a DJC the last hit could be cancelled. Overall, this would be a fusion of Lucas's nair and Ness's fair, so it would be balanced accordingly.
Uses either electricity or PK Hexagon effects, from his hands or from the arm cannon, or both because you can't really tell the difference anyways.
Could also kick like Lucas, or stab/slash forwards to the same effect

-Bair:
Slashes in an arc (sort of tracing Lucas's bair except low to high) while turning around to cover the area behind him. Likely not KO-power knockback, and probably at a moderate upwards knockback angle. I would see it being used in conjunction with the turnaround as a decent setup move.
I'm a little wary of having another KO tool for bair when so many other characters have one like it, but that's also possible
Same kick as Lucas, or a similar backstroke sword sweep
Same kick as Ness or points his arm cannon behind him and unleashes a blast of energy with similar behavior

-Upair:
Meta Knight-esque sweep above his head. Presumably would juggle quite well.
Headbutt, like Lucas/Ness

-Dair:
Sweeps arm cannon below him, shooting a burst as it faces perpendicularly down. This would act as the move's sweetspot and logically be a meteor. Would lack the speed and ease of use of Ness's dair, and the safety from above compared to Lucas's, but have some arc coverage and above-average power.
Could also use a MK vBrawl-style dair. Whether the knockback more resembles MK or Roy/Marth would be difficult to tell.
I could see a modified copy of Ness's or Lucas's dair here as well.

So yeah. Not really a singular moveset but here it is.

tl;dr: Moveset Potential

Anybody who would care to make suggestions or critiques is certainly welcome to do so.

Pretty badass

 

[True Fool]

Oh shoot. I'd like to add a half vote(or tie him into my Lyn/Hector/Black Knight line-up) for Sigurd. He could either dual-wield a sword and a lance, or taunt swap his weapon. Can't represent the entire Fire Emblem series, but the SNES era would be a worthy representation. He'd be a bit rough to make, he doesn't have a model like Lyn, and he doesn't have a 3D render to take from like the Black Knight. He also probably couldn't be a clone if we want his lance wielding to be any different from our friendly sword-wielders. But if they felt like doing something out there for Fire Emblem, I think Sigurd would be well worth it.

 

[XRagingxDemonX]

Phone is stupid and clicked the wrong post. My apologies

 

[XRagingxDemonX]

this is starting to get a little dumb guys. i know that you are all enjoying your "outside the box" thinking right now, but can we please have a bit of rational speculation now and then?

let's consider the following points.

1. the PMBR are now limited to 5 new characters with the clone engine.
2. whether or not they choose to use all 5 yet is still not decided.
3. additional 3rd party characters have been all but completely ruled out, so no more sonic suggestions, PLEASE.
4. the ability to cut any corners while making any of them with pre-existing materials will most likely be valued.
5. "clone" characters will probably be what are produced, so let's consider which of the existing franchises actually warrant another rep.

rationally, i think that the following series don't need any more reps:
-any game series' that have more than 3 reps already - zelda (5), pokemon (7!), mario (6 - including wario and yoshi, that is. i think they warrant inclusion as they are still rather lodged in the mario games, although to an admittedly lesser extent with wario)

-any game series that has few to no other characters worth bringing over (kirby, ice climbers)

-any game series that has other characters not already present in brawl in some way that additionally DON'T have a chance of appearing in smash 4 (again kirby, kid icarus )

-gimmick/fanservice/joke/whatever you want to call them characters, that aren't actually a series. (rob, mr game and watch)

so we are left with:
Fzero
Metroid
Donkey Kong (the inclusion of diddy kong in br awl warrants separation from mario, in my opinion)
Mother
Pikmin
Starfox
Fire Emblem


F-zero is a must, no questions. hell, at this point i'd admit black shadow inheriting SOME of ganon's moves would be an interesting make - but ganon has made some of the moves his own, and it wouldn't be the same to completely strip him of his notfalcon moveset.

metroid - another high priority. if ridley can be scaled right, i'm all for it - but i have to admit i'd rather see what they could do with dark samus.

mother, donkey kong and pikmin have had minimal/no discussion in this thread, so to be honest i don't see much point in expanding their rosters... pikmin in particular. mother is also rather niche for nintendo, and donkey kong might have more reps in smash 4.

star fox - "NOT ANOTHER LANDMASTER" is all I'm hearing concerning this, and i'm pretty sure there's been no discussion outside of krystal in this thread. and we've seen how popular she's been...

View attachment 4513
fire emblem - the big one. this year the release of FE: Awakening has really pushed the franchise into the spotlight and saved it from being a binned IP, and has seen a rather large surge of popularity (enough for Figma/amiami to release a goddamn poly statue of the darkmage Tharja). based on this alone, i believe it's more than deserving of another slot on the clone engine. we all know how supportive I've been of the idea of Lyndis joining the fight (sword complainees, take a number), as i believe she offers more than enough to separate herself from the other FE lords present in the game - even moreso with the revealing of samus's ammo/moveset altering through her side taunt. There has been more than enough discussion in this thread alone of the possibility (it is also still purely baffling that the first FE game released in the west doesn't have anything outside of an assist trophy for an in-game rep). having existing materials for her in game helps too. sure, FE as a franchise still isn't anywhere near the mass of the three nintendo heavyweights mario, pokemon and zelda, but it has regained a considerable amount of lost ground over the years and then some. (which i believe started with FE10... michiah, *cough cough*)

so Fzero, metroid, and fire emblem are the main contendors. golden sun's isaac has been another, while we have one more series.

some food for thought.

third party characters are not ruled out if they are in the game already as a trophy or sticker

 

[Deleted member]

And Mega Man is represented in MvC3 through a costume for Zero. Doesn't mean his fans don't have the right to be unhappy. Personally, I'd support the return of Young Link. Yes, we already have 2 Links, but Young Link mains were sort of left in the dust in Project M, just like Pichu mains. It'd be hypocritical to support one because Melee and not the other.


It would be pretty douchey of them, though. The 'joke' was clearly a subtle nod at things yet to come, so they should have had the foresight not to use a character from Melee, no matter how unpopular, due to the obvious reaction it would get when people learned about the clone engine. Someone like Tingle, or even a character that isn't eligible would have been a much more tasteful joke.


What does that even mean? No character needs a clone, but Pikachu certainly doesn't need to not have a clone. Unless the character already has a clone (or two) in the roster I see no reason why they shouldn't get one. Seems to me like you just don't like Pichu and/or Pikachu. In my opinion 'representation' is Sakurai's job and the PMBR shouldn't be restricted by it. Yes, there are a lot of Pokemon, but why is that a problem if they all add something new and exciting to the metagame?


ITP: If you don't slap everyone you haven't slapped anyone.

Urgg....


I'm really not motivated to go on with this, but YOU'RE the guy who goes on and on about how much of a 'douchey move' it'd be if Pichu was left out.

Quit being so entitled, take a look at the poll, and look at how many people DON'T want Pichu in the game. It wouldn't be a slap in the face, and it's not tasteless. It'd simply be that they thought other choices were much better than Chu. Quit taking the PMBR's decisions as a personal attack on the Pichu fanbase cause it's not. If Lyn didn't get in the game, I wouldn't take it as a personal attack, would I be disappointed, yes, but I would respect their decision since they clearly found better alternatives to be in the game.


From stictly a gameplay standpoint, Pichu is among the weakest of the candidates. There are MUCH better characters that should be added well before Pichu gets in. The biggest strawman I see tossed around here is that whole "but he's a veteran, and deserves to be in" deal, and honestly, no, he doesn't. If he can't prove to be a more interesting character than the alternatives, then he's better off left out.

And tbh, he's not a better alternative than the other chars. Claus, Ridley, Dark Samus, Lyn, Isaac, Paper Mario, Sami, Bowser Jr. and so on, are all MILES more interesting than Pichu. Why? Cause we've already PLAYED as Pichu, but we haven't played as any of them. Why is such a simple concept so difficult to grasp?

So yeah, you can support whoever you like ofc, I'm no trying to sway you. But please, stop going on and on about why it'd be such a '**** move' if Pichu didn't get in. No, no it wouldn't.

Now, with that aside can we PLEASE drop the Pichu topic, I understand that the vocal minority is desperate to have him in, but really, much like Diddy did with Impa, all you're doing is making people resent the idea of Pichu more and more.

Lets talk about other possibilities like Ashley, or whatnot, or potential movesets for characters like Ridley and Claus. Maybe even Dark Samus. Idc, I just don't want the Pichu talk to continue.

 

[Deleted member]

If you have any knowledge of Japanese, the name itself is evident...

I studied Japanese for two years.


Plusle is Purasu

and Minum is Mainum

Problem lies with Plusle, as it impossible to write that in Kana, even romanized Kana because of how Japanese works. Praimai is clearly something not written in Japanese as it's phonetically impossible for the language.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

Urgg....


I'm really not motivated to go on with this, but YOU'RE the guy who goes on and on about how much of a 'douchey move' it'd be if Pichu was left out.

Quit being so entitled, take a look at the poll, and look at how many people DON'T want Pichu in the game. It wouldn't be a slap in the face, and it's not tasteless. It'd simply be that they thought other choices were much better than Chu. Quit taking the PMBR's decisions as a personal attack on the Pichu fanbase cause it's not. If Lyn didn't get in the game, I wouldn't take it as a personal attack, would I be disappointed, yes, but I would respect their decision since they clearly found better alternatives to be in the game.


From stictly a gameplay standpoint, Pichu is among the weakest of the candidates. There are MUCH better characters that should be added well before Pichu gets in. The biggest strawman I see tossed around here is that whole "but he's a veteran, and deserves to be in" deal, and honestly, no, he doesn't. If he can't prove to be a more interesting character than the alternatives, then he's better off left out.

And tbh, he's not a better alternative than the other chars. Claus, Ridley, Dark Samus, Lyn, Isaac, Paper Mario, Sami, Bowser Jr. and so on, are all MILES more interesting than Pichu. Why? Cause we've already PLAYED as Pichu, but we haven't played as any of them. Why is such a simple concept so difficult to grasp?

So yeah, you can support whoever you like ofc, I'm no trying to sway you. But please, stop going on and on about why it'd be such a '**** move' if Pichu didn't get in. No, no it wouldn't.

Now, with that aside can we PLEASE drop the Pichu topic, I understand that the vocal minority is desperate to have him in, but really, much like Diddy did with Impa, all you're doing is making people resent the idea of Pichu more and more.

Lets talk about other possibilities like Ashley, or whatnot, or potential movesets for characters like Ridley and Claus. Maybe even Dark Samus. Idc, I just don't want the Pichu talk to continue.

I agree with most of what you said, but you can not associate a poll of less then a hundred voters to a game with a total downloads of over 60,000

 

[Deleted member]

I agree with most of what you said, but you can not associate a poll of less then a hundred voters to a game with a total downloads of over 60,000

No, I can't but it's really ALL we have to go on.

Just because there it's not a large sample doesn't mean it isn't some form of evidence. If someone can bring me evidence that a large number of people who play PM actually want Pichu back then I'll concede.

In the meantime, I'll stick to my guns.

 

[Anti Guy]

I studied Japanese for two years.


Plusle is Purasu

and Minum is Mainum

Problem lies with Plusle, as it impossible to write that in Kana, even romanized Kana because of how Japanese works. Praimai is clearly something not written in Japanese as it's phonetically impossible for the language.

First, Minun is Mainan and Plusle is Purasuru.

Second, it's Pramai, not Praimai.

Third, Japanese always loves to abbreviate using the first two syllables of words, whereas English likes to use acronyms. Great example of this is sumabura, the Japanese version of "SSB." Suma from Smash, and Bura from Brothers. In this case, Plusle & Minun would be Puramai

Finally, they can cut letters, which is not that uncommon for the u, which is often unpronounced especially when it's used to transliterate non-Japanese names. Since the first "u" in purasuru is negligible, they can call it pra. Hence pramai.

I agree with most of what you said, but you can not associate a poll of less then a hundred voters to a game with a total downloads of over 60,000

It's over 100. 127 now. And goddamn it, yes you can. Do you not understand how polls work in elections? Or do you need me to link my whole statistics spiel from way back in the middle? It's getting annoying how stuff like this keeps popping up.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

First, Minun is Mainan and Plusle is Purasuru.

Second, it's Pramai, not Praimai.

Third, Japanese always loves to abbreviate using the first two syllables of words, whereas English likes to use acronyms. Great example of this is sumabura, the Japanese version of "SSB." Suma from Smash, and Bura from Brothers. In this case, Plusle & Minun would be Puramai

Finally, they can cut letters, which is not that uncommon for the u, which is often unpronounced especially when it's used to transliterate non-Japanese names. Since the first "u" in purasuru is negligible, they can call it pra. Hence pramai.




It's over 100. 127 now. And goddamn it, yes you can. Do you not understand how polls work in elections? Or do you need me to link my whole statistics spiel from way back in the middle? It's getting annoying how stuff like this keeps popping up.

if there is a limit on how many characters you can give the thumbs up on and that same limit doesn`t apply to how many you can thumbs down that automatically makes it unfair. I also think it`s stupid that we can only +1 5 characters "because there are only 5 slots left", obviously the PMBR isn`t going to look at peoples individual votes and see what 5 characters were in most people`s top 5 and make those the 5 remaining clone characters. I feel like there are several people in this thread that hate that they have to narrow there opinions down to a top 5 and give all the other characters they wanted just as much a .5.

 

[Deleted member]

First, Minun is Mainan and Plusle is Purasuru.

Second, it's Pramai, not Praimai.

Third, Japanese always loves to abbreviate using the first two syllables of words, whereas English likes to use acronyms. Great example of this is sumabura, the Japanese version of "SSB." Suma from Smash, and Bura from Brothers. In this case, Plusle & Minun would be Puramai

Finally, they can cut letters, which is not that uncommon for the u, which is often unpronounced especially when it's used to transliterate non-Japanese names. Since the first "u" in purasuru is negligible, they can call it pra. Hence pramai.




It's over 100. 127 now. And goddamn it, yes you can. Do you not understand how polls work in elections? Or do you need me to link my whole statistics spiel from way back in the middle? It's getting annoying how stuff like this keeps popping up.

Problems is, there is no Pr kana, nor a Pra kana in Japanese. They like to cut letters, yes, but to their root kana. It's impossible to write Pra in Japanese. It come out as Pura. So if it really were Plusle and Minum, it'd be PuraMai, not Pramai. Evidence lies in that it wasn't written in Japanese, but instead a latin-base language.

 

[Deleted member]

if there is a limit on how many characters you can give the thumbs up on and that same limit doesn`t apply to how many you can thumbs down that automatically makes it unfair. I also think it`s stupid that we can only +1 5 characters "because there are only 5 slots left", obviously the PMBR isn`t going to look at peoples individual votes and see what 5 characters were in most people`s top 5 and make those the 5 remaining clone characters. I feel like there are several people in this thread that hate that they have to narrow there opinions down to a top 5 and give all the other characters they wanted just as much a .5.

Do a personal count of the halfvotes and count the as whole votes and Pichu STILL gets left in the dust. The top 5 simply get THAT much more of a lead thanks to it.

Also, we can only downvote 5.

 

[Anti Guy]

if there is a limit on how many characters you can give the thumbs up on and that same limit doesn`t apply to how many you can thumbs down that automatically makes it unfair. I also think it`s stupid that we can only +1 5 characters "because there are only 5 slots left", obviously the PMBR isn`t going to look at peoples individual votes and see what 5 characters were in most people`s top 5 and make those the 5 remaining clone characters. I feel like there are several people in this thread that hate that they have to narrow there opinions down to a top 5 and give all the other characters they wanted just as much a .5.

There are unlimited .5 votes, just as there are unlimited negative votes. There are also an unlimited number of options that people vote for that it'd be foolish to put a limit on negative votes. For statistical purposes, I treat all positive votes as +1

Problems is, there is no Pr kana, nor a Pra kana in Japanese. They like to cut letters, yes, but to their root kana. It's impossible to write Pra in Japanese. It come out as Pura. So if it really were Plusle and Minum, it'd be PuraMai, not Pramai. Evidence lies in that it wasn't written in Japanese, but instead a latin-base language.

This is coding. Not pure Japanese. Coding is done in Latin, and by extension Japanese romaji. And coding doesn't have to conform to any rules. They can cut letters as they please, especially as the source is not Japanese in the first place (we already know it's based off the English words "plus" and "minus"). There is nothing else that can be pramai, especially within the limited context of Nintendo characters. And it is so blazing obvious, I'm not really sure how you can't see it.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

Do a personal count of the halfvotes and count the as whole votes and Pichu STILL gets left in the dust. The top 5 simply get THAT much more of a lead thanks to it.

Also, we can only downvote 5.

1. unless there was a rule change between yesterday night and right now, you can downvote and halfvote as many as you want.
2. I know Pichu isn`t popular, I said that when I replied to your post, I`m just trying to state why this poll is very ineffective

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

There are unlimited .5 votes, just as there are unlimited negative votes. There are also an unlimited number of options that people vote for that it'd be foolish to put a limit on negative votes.




This is coding. Not pure Japanese. Coding is done in Latin, and by extension Japanese romaji. And coding doesn't have to conform to any rules. They can cut letters as they please, especially as the source is not Japanese in the first place (we already know it's based off the English words "plus" and "minus"). There is nothing else that can be pramai. And it is so blazing obvious, I'm not really sure how you can't see it.

I`m not saying limit them, I`m saying don`t limit the upvotes because that is infinitely unfair to the voters and the "only 5 slots left" excuse is stupid because we know that not all our most wanted are going to make it in (if any of them do) so we might as well get to post our full, unrestricted opinions about what characters we want, what characters we don`t want, and what characters we are indifferent to or just don`t care either way.

 

[True Fool]

After reading a bit more of these posts, I think I'm gonna have to downvote Pichu, Young Link and Mii. I'm less and less interested in Pichu the more I see it discussed. I wouldn't be that upset to see it make it onto the roster, but there are so many better options.

As for Young Link, the only way I would be enthusiastic about his inclusion would be if he was a completely new character, making use of the masks. I see no reason to include three Links, and give them all the same moveset. Even then, we already have 5 Zelda characters, so I'm not necessarily promoting the inclusion of another Zelda character. Just specifying that Young Link could be done in a way I'd appreciate. My downvote specifically goes towards adding the Melee iteration of Young Link.

To elaborate further on Pichu, I feel that Pokemon is over-repped as is, and if we end up with another Pokemon anyways, why a clone/Luigified clone? Even if it wasn't a clone, why a different form of an already select-able Pokemon? Just like with Zelda, I'm not advocating another Pokemon rep as a good idea, but I am particularly against that spot going to Pichu. Pichu could be done well, I'm not arguing that. I'm only arguing that there are many other options, that would be much better.

As for Mii, I just don't like them. I hate seeing them in Mario Kart, I play Mario Kart to race as Mario characters against other Mario characters(...and Donkey Kong), and likewise, I play Smash to play as Nintendo characters. Not avatars I make to represent myself in games where actual characters are absent. Like any character, they have plenty of moveset potential. I just think generic, malleable moveset potential could be used elsewhere, if we're even going to go with a character of similar moveset potential.

 

[shinhed-echi]

I love the idea of Pichu returning.
And I would also love it if Young Link's moves were to return somehow (I personally dig the idea of Vaati taking over YL's moves, but with new specials, even though I'm not that fond of the character, I'd gladly pick him up if he were to play like YL, although I don't see how that's possible if he shares TL's proportions more than he does YL. Perhaps Prince Sable or Poo are much better Young Link-ification)

I mean, this is a clone engine after all. There's got to be a balance between completely unique, and cloned movesets.
(Heh, we should totally call this the Clone Wars)

 

[True Fool]

I love the idea of Pichu returning.
And I would also love it if Young Link's moves were to return somehow (I personally dig the idea of Vaati taking over YL's moves, but with new specials, even though I'm not that fond of the character, I'd gladly pick him up if he were to play like YL, although I don't see how that's possible if he shares TL's proportions more than he does YL. Perhaps Prince Sable or Poo are much better Young Link-ification)

I mean, this is a clone engine after all. There's got to be a balance between completely unique, and cloned movesets.
(Heh, we should totally call this the Clone Wars)

While I'm not in favor of your Pichu sentiment, I could be on board with seeing Vaati. We do have a lot of Zelda characters, but if we had to see one, Vaati would be nice. Villain, part of the "Toon" series, easily implemented moveset.

 

[l3thargy]

I say the final slots should just go to adding in more Links, we could have Fierce Deity Link, Goron Link, Zora Link, Deku Link, and Wolf Link, the best thing is each character could bring in a unique and fun moveset we haven't seen in a Link yet :D

or even better add in more Ganon's like Beast Ganon from Oot, Toon Ganon with his two swords, twilight princess Ganon with his one sword, Ganon from alttp with his trident, and Phantom Ganon, that way we could have 6 Ganon's (including the current one) lol

 

[Malion]

super link bros.

everyone should get an alternate link tunic as well... just for kicks!

 

[shinhed-echi]

While I'm not in favor of your Pichu sentiment, I could be on board with seeing Vaati. We do have a lot of Zelda characters, but if we had to see one, Vaati would be nice. Villain, part of the "Toon" series, easily implemented moveset.

Vaati would be cool, actually, yeah.

IF he were to take over Young Link's moveset, I would suggest he gets vBrawl's Link's Gale Boomerang due to the wind effect. (Or hey... why not just the wind without the boomerang? Like a "Force Push" of wind?)

I'm not too familiarized with Vaati and his attacks, so I'm not sure if Ice arrows would represent him well. Or a spike of ice instead of arrows.

 

[Deleted member]

There are unlimited .5 votes, just as there are unlimited negative votes. There are also an unlimited number of options that people vote for that it'd be foolish to put a limit on negative votes. For statistical purposes, I treat all positive votes as +1




This is coding. Not pure Japanese. Coding is done in Latin, and by extension Japanese romaji. And coding doesn't have to conform to any rules. They can cut letters as they please, especially as the source is not Japanese in the first place (we already know it's based off the English words "plus" and "minus"). There is nothing else that can be pramai, especially within the limited context of Nintendo characters. And it is so blazing obvious, I'm not really sure how you can't see it.

Because the evidence that it actually IS Plus and Min, is shoddy at best. People like to cling to that idea, but really, there is little to prove that it was even a character to begin with. We've discussed this over in the Smash 4 thread before it got dumb, but really, Pramai will forever be a mystery.

Vaati would be cool, actually, yeah.

IF he were to take over Young Link's moveset, I would suggest he gets vBrawl's Link's Gale Boomerang due to the wind effect. (Or hey... why not just the wind without the boomerang? Like a "Force Push" of wind?)

I'm not too familiarized with Vaati and his attacks, so I'm not sure if Ice arrows would represent him well. Or a spike of ice instead of arrows.

What?

Why would Vaati inherit TL's moveset? He fights NOTHING like him. The best way to incorporate Vaati as a character is as a 3-stage transforming character a la DBZ, ergo "this is not even my final form."

Vaati uses dark magic, and can summon eyeballs that shoot lasers, he can also make little twisters, and warp runes, as well as teleport and stuff. He can conjure up big balls of dark magic, and he can use lightning strikes and a few other nifty things.

He'd be a cool as balls character, but nigh-impossible to incorporate into PM in a way that does him justice. I don't see him taking in anything from TL though.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Because the evidence that it actually IS Plus and Min, is shoddy at best. People like to cling to that idea, but really, there is little to prove that it was even a character to begin with. We've discussed this over in the Smash 4 thread before it got dumb, but really, Pramai will forever be a mystery.



What?

Why would Vaati inherit TL's moveset? He fights NOTHING like him. The best way to incorporate Vaati as a character is as a 3-stage transforming character a la DBZ, ergo "this is not even my final form."

Vaati uses dark magic, and can summon eyeballs that shoot lasers, he can also make little twisters, and warp runes, as well as teleport and stuff. He can conjure up big balls of dark magic, and he can use lightning strikes and a few other nifty things.

He'd be a cool as balls character, but nigh-impossible to incorporate into PM in a way that does him justice. I don't see him taking in anything from TL though.

I was thinking up ways of "cheating" into keeping Young Link's moveset somehow, but through another character. XD
...

Specials aside.... Lip might work too. Then the specials could involve the various effects from Special Brawl (except, obviously, inducing Turbo Mode).

-
Would be awesome if LINK could play the Ocarina to turn himself into Young Link.
(Bonus points for having to input Up+Down+Right+Up+Down+Right on the Dpad to make this happen))

 

[XRagingxDemonX]

IF there was a 4th kirby character put into SSB4........Do think Knuckle Joe is getting in? or will Bandana Dee steal it? (Because of Kirby:Return to Dreamland) even though Waddle Dees are used projectiles by DeDeDe

Knuckle Joe. Or. Bandana Dee... Not too sure. My fav was the ninja power from K:RtD and squeak squad. If someone made a combination move-set using those two powers they would be my fav Kirby PSA person ever. The charging fire move from squall squad was awesome.

 

[powerfox112]

Can we still vote?
Up votes: Black Shadow/Samurai Goroh - Another F-Zero rep would be a welcome addition I think.
Saki - As an assist trophy in Brawl, his model wouldn't be too hard to implement, also a Treasure rep would get me hype
Sukapon - He's a unique character, and I think it would be a cool call back to Nintendo's first fighting game
Isaac - I like him as a character and I think he would make a good addition, if they could implement his psyenergy properly his moveset would be pretty cool and not just another sword dude
Down votes: Shadow - There is no need for edgy Sonic characters, Knuckles is alright though.
Krystal - There's a good amount of Star Fox characters, and I don't think that Krystal is a good enough character to deserve a spot.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Can some one explain to me why they want Young Link's moveset back?

I just don't see what it adds to the game at this point. Link and Tink already kind of adopted everything good about the character, I don't see what is really left for him that hasn't been cannibalized or improved upon by the other Links.

Somebody just tell me what his moveset can add to the game at this point because I'm not seeing anything.

All things considered though, a Young Link that uses masks would be neat. I don't really want three Links though, especially if he ended up taking multiple clone engine slots. There are better options.

 

[trojanpooh]

Urgg....


I'm really not motivated to go on with this, but YOU'RE the guy who goes on and on about how much of a 'douchey move' it'd be if Pichu was left out.

Not if Pichu was left out, to tease Pichu and not include him. Subtle difference.

Quit being so entitled, take a look at the poll, and look at how many people DON'T want Pichu in the game. It wouldn't be a slap in the face, and it's not tasteless. It'd simply be that they thought other choices were much better than Chu. Quit taking the PMBR's decisions as a personal attack on the Pichu fanbase cause it's not. If Lyn didn't get in the game, I wouldn't take it as a personal attack, would I be disappointed, yes, but I would respect their decision since they clearly found better alternatives to be in the game.

Again, they never once teased Lyn. But if they did and then failed to deliver it would be in poor taste. Not a personal attack, but mistakes can hurt too

From stictly a gameplay standpoint, Pichu is among the weakest of the candidates. There are MUCH better characters that should be added well before Pichu gets in. The biggest strawman I see tossed around here is that whole "but he's a veteran, and deserves to be in" deal, and honestly, no, he doesn't. If he can't prove to be a more interesting character than the alternatives, then he's better off left out.

You also can't prove that any of these new characters would be better. Pichu is established as a character, we have a general idea of how he should play. Everyone else's popularity is based on wild speculation and imagination. And from what I've read, many theorized movesets wouldn't even work properly and would need to be dumbed down.

And tbh, he's not a better alternative than the other chars. Claus, Ridley, Dark Samus, Lyn, Isaac, Paper Mario, Sami, Bowser Jr. and so on, are all MILES more interesting than Pichu. Why? Cause we've already PLAYED as Pichu, but we haven't played as any of them. Why is such a simple concept so difficult to grasp?

That makes him more important. That means there are people out there who main as him and may not make the switch to Project M if he's absent. Imagine if Fox wasn't in Project M, would you suggest he wasn't important because we've already played as him? Just because you don't like him doesn't make his veteran status any less important.

So yeah, you can support whoever you like ofc, I'm no trying to sway you. But please, stop going on and on about why it'd be such a '**** move' if Pichu didn't get in. No, no it wouldn't.

The issue isn't the inclusion of Pichu, it's teasing him. Even if it was a joke it shows a blatant lack of respect for a slice of the community, no matter now small. I'm sure the PMBR didn't intend it that way, but it was still in poor taste. Had they never done that we wouldn't be having a discussion about class or entitlement or any of this.

Now, with that aside can we PLEASE drop the Pichu topic, I understand that the vocal minority is desperate to have him in, but really, much like Diddy did with Impa, all you're doing is making people resent the idea of Pichu more and more.

In case you haven't noticed most of Pichu discussion throughout the history of this thread is brought up by anti-Pichu people. They say something uneducated about Pichu and someone corrects them. Then it snowballs. You simply can't control the flow of a thread by suggesting a topic, they just happen by chance.

 

[lami]

I'm for Alph from Pikmin 3. He could play similar to Olimar, except he only picks rock and flying Pikmin. Of course there would be differences in his playstyle, maybe a max of 3 Pikmin, slower but harder hitting, sorta like Roy. I got myself hyped for this now.

 

[Shin F.]

That makes him more important. That means there are people out there who main as him and may not make the switch to Project M if he's absent. Imagine if Fox wasn't in Project M, would you suggest he wasn't important because we've already played as him? Just because you don't like him doesn't make his veteran status any less important.

The big difference is that Fox is a LOT more important than Pichu. He's the main character of Star Fox and he's been there since the beginning and has a LOT more people who main him. Further, he's already in Brawl so there'd be no point to remove him, whereas adding Pichu could take spot from a potentially more meaningful character. Pokemon has 7 reps, where deserving series like Golden Sun have ZERO. Further, Pichu is just one of over 700 Pokemon. What if there were a very vocal minority that desperately wanted, say... Caterpie playable?

A better analogy would have been, if they didn't add Mewtwo and chose someone else. And yes, many people would have been upset by that. But Pichu users are far fewer than Mewtwo fans. I wouldn't care if Pichu got in, I would play as and against him just like I do every other character because I know PMBR would do an awesome job, but I would be disappointed if he got in over a more deserving character.

Honestly, when they showed the Pichu teaser - yes, they should have known that Pichu fans would be upset if he's not included. BUT, Pichu fans should have known and realized that the video was originally an April Fool's joke and PMBR only said that Turbo Mode from it was real as a surprise the day after. Everything from it except Turbo Mode was an April Fools joke, and they made that clear.

Let me also say that it's not that I hate Pichu personally. Without the Pokemon Trainer, I see Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard as meaningless from a standpoint of representing the series as a whole, just like I do Pichu. I would not be sorry to see them go completely to get three new slots. That wouldn't be the case if they were still with the Trainer, because he represented an important aspect of the series. Without him, though, his Pokemon are just three out of 700, which is the same way I feel about Pichu.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Speaking of Trainer. I really think they should make him playable. Heck... maybe even mix Pichu somehow in there if it somehow shoots 2 birds with one stone. (I'd be ok with it).

I brought up what PT's specials could be like before. Maybe instead of Bellossom, he could clone Pichu's Thunderbolt (Down+B) only instead of knockback, it causes STUN.

Final Smash = Either TRIPLE FINISH, or a Legendary.


I have a question: Does anybody know EXACTLY how "Articles" work with the clone engine? Like... I understand a cloned character can't generate Mario's Fireball for example, or any other projectile. Is that how it goes?

 

[mikeyn1gm]

Of those two I'd rather have Bandana Dee.

Let me clarify......I mean who is LIKELY for SSB4........who do you think is going to make it honestly........not preference.........if it was by MY preference, I would go with Knuckle Joe because he naturally stood out more then Bandana Dee. It wasn't until that game came out where he was 4th player that people now feel that he has more value then Joe. Also I believe that the reason why Joe was still an enemy was because Kirby still needed to get his "Fighter Kirby" ability somehow and Bandanna Dee made the perfect player 4 ally (Because Notice that Kirby cannot get an ability or for some cases, even swall King Dedede, Meta Knight and Any Waddle Dee)

As for who do I think is going to make it? I'm really uncertain



On a side note: for those who want a Spear user, I think Krystal's playstyle would be heavily based on it.........putting "hate" aside I think she has more likelihood of getting into SSB4


***Btw, before I get the first person to tell me I'm off topic......to explain myself I'm asking about Knuckle Joe because if he really is likely to get into the next game as I originally thought then I would like to switch my "UP VOTE" for him to another character........thats why I'm asking so try your best to set aside preference and "hate" and consider all factors........

 

[Shin F.]

Speaking of Trainer. I really think they should make him playable. Heck... maybe even mix Pichu somehow in there if it somehow shoots 2 birds with one stone. (I'd be ok with it).

I brought up what PT's specials could be like before. Maybe instead of Bellossom, he could clone Pichu's Thunderbolt (Down+B) only instead of knockback, it causes STUN.

Final Smash = Either TRIPLE FINISH, or a Legendary.


I have a question: Does anybody know EXACTLY how "Articles" work with the clone engine? Like... I understand a cloned character can't generate Mario's Fireball for example, or any other projectile. Is that how it goes?

I don't know how they work, but I think cloned characters can have articles/projectiles if the character they're cloned from has them, because Mewtwo has Shadow Ball and it doesn't seem to affect Aura Sphere at all.

 

[GunBlaze]

I don't know how they work, but I think cloned characters can have articles/projectiles if the character they're cloned from has them, because Mewtwo has Shadow Ball and it doesn't seem to affect Aura Sphere at all.

This is exactly how it works. Original with articles = Clone with articles.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Because the evidence that it actually IS Plus and Min, is shoddy at best. People like to cling to that idea, but really, there is little to prove that it was even a character to begin with. We've discussed this over in the Smash 4 thread before it got dumb, but really, Pramai will forever be a mystery.

Not exactly a fan of Plusle and Minun, but it is interesting to note that in Brawl, obtaining their trophy requires you to get all Final Smash trophies. Pichu and Mewtwo are the only other trophy-only Pokemon that share this sort of criteria/distinction. That doesn't really prove their planned inclusion, but it does prove their relative importance to the game designers.

Vaati talk

This just seemed like the most convenient post to quote.
Vaati was actually discussed a little while back, he would certainly be awesome but he doesn't appear in Brawl.

 

[Anti Guy]

I`m not saying limit them, I`m saying don`t limit the upvotes because that is infinitely unfair to the voters and the "only 5 slots left" excuse is stupid because we know that not all our most wanted are going to make it in (if any of them do) so we might as well get to post our full, unrestricted opinions about what characters we want, what characters we don`t want, and what characters we are indifferent to or just don`t care either way.

Alright dude, can you come up with a better idea?

And just to address your points. No, the 5 slots left isn't stupid because that is the decision the PMBR will ultimately be making.

Unlimited negative votes are unlimited because putting any kind of limit is unnecessarily arbitrarily. Say I said it was 5 negative votes. Most people use their votes for the three Sonic characters, so that leaves them with only 2 votes. Is there any reason for that? No. That's why it's unlimited, but with the stipulation that you have to give a reason for them so that you're not just putting them down for numbers' sake.

And if you want unlimited positive votes, that is in. You have an unlimited number of half votes.

So if you want a poll where you see general popularity. That's there. All the positive votes.

If you want a poll where you wanted to know if people can just choose 5, that's there too. The full votes.

If you want a poll to see how much resistance there is to certain characters, that's there too. The anti votes.

From that point on, you can subanalyze it however you want with respect to any of those. You can ignore the extra weighting of the 5 votes. Or you can weight them however you want. You can look at positive votes and negative votes separately. You can get a percentage of support. The total score thing I have is just a derivation. The raw data is still there though. Everything is done at the same time killing, multiple birds.

Do you have a better idea? Because I'd sure like to hear it.

 

[Johnknight1]

(Heh, we should totally call this the Clone Wars)

Let us never refer to that abysmal movie ever again.

The 2 animated series, especially the first one, however...

 

[OrangeSodaGuy]

Unofficial theme song for this thread? :D

Spoiler

@Johnknight1-- you might get a kick out of this...

 

[Malion]

Unlimited negative votes are unlimited because putting any kind of limit is unnecessarily arbitrarily. Say I said it was 5 negative votes. Most people use their votes for the three Sonic characters, so that leaves them with only 2 votes.

Limit to 8 votes then, problem solved! (kidding)

 

[PsionicSabreur]

So, I've heard that Snake has gone and gotten his Nikita replaced (by a tranquilizer gun or something). Sami is one of my half votes, so this is not an attempt to lash out, but it seems she's becoming an increasingly forced clone of Snake. It just seems that none of her moves are really going to fit that well if Snake continues to be balanced around CQC and the stealth parts of his game. Just look, her main focus is infantry, but Snake doesn't even have any sort of gun that isn't "not really a gun." The mortar, and I guess this new side-b are the only things you could probably work with. I guess it would be an option to have the old Snake moveset return in some form with Sami, but putting an attack on a clone while you took it off of the base because it was too difficult to balance would prove to be a problem. Not to say it wouldn't work, but I think it deserves some discussion.

 

[OrangeSodaGuy]

Not to start another flamewar or to disrespect anyone who wants another character, but I have noticed that Pichu is actually requested surprisingly often on Reddit (on the AMA thread at least), and even on Facebook. For whatever that's worth.

I trust that the PMBR will make the right choices with characters regardless.