New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[trojanpooh]

Edit: i dont know if you missed this msg again.. but what do u think of keeping TP ganon as is and then bringing OOT ganon in as a clone engine character?

This is the exact same suggestion as the Black Shadow/Ganondorf suggestion but with more redundancy in the roster. It'd be like if the PMBR added classic Marth instead of Roy.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

This is the problem. Sakurai gave Ganondorf this stupid clone move set and in the following games that he showed up in, the developers decided to make him fight more like he does in smash bros to justify smash bros make people say.. ohhh ok ya look it makes sense!!! And apparently it worked for a handful of people. Doing this backs up Sakurais stupid decision and in turn he feels good about it and keeps the clone moves.

Anyway now I'm off topic.

The end.

Honest question here.

Do you REALLY believe that Sakurai has any say in changing the elements of a character of a franchise he has no part in? Or that the Legend of Zelda developers would really change their character based on some sort of hint from Sakurai in the form of a Smash Bros. character?

Ganondorf is a monster. He represents pure power and the will to use it. This carries over in all of the games to some extent, but is especially prevalent in the three games in which he is a human. Smash conveys this very well, and he can easily become even less of a clone than he already is just through (dare I say it again?) a few minor tweaks.

I use Ganon as my secondary character next only to link (usually switching between the two every match or so) and giving ganon his own non clone move-set would be great in my eyes, add in the ability to still play with his previous move-set in the form of someone more worthy of it is a good bonus (and again I'd just like to point out you could always switch black shadows model back to ganon, then you'll still have falcondorf, just don't play with the new ganon moveset if you don't like it, you don't see me complaining about a character such as pichu gettting in, if he gets in he gets in I just won't play as that character is all)

And anybody who can't get over Ganondorf's moveset as is could just put a Black Shadow skin over Ganondorf. That argument is just inherently flawed, and doesn't solve the problem that, for many people at least, you would be taking away their favorite character.

 

[Fortress]

I don't play Black Shadow. I play Ganondorf.

This is the mentality that every person who wants to off Ganondorf; a character we've had as veteran of the cast for two of the three games, needs to have. If anything, Black Shadow should be an Alt Costume of Ganondorf, but that's dumb, because it's totally Ocarina Mulletdorf (if anybody).

 

[Fortress]

So that Groose

Super Groose Bros: The battle of Groose.

 

[ChronoBound]

Sami: Same complaint as Andy.

Sami certainly loves using weapons, probably one of the few Advance Wars characters that has artwork of her/him holding real world weapons. Heck, Sami probably holds some sort of military hardware in ALL of her artwork.

Spoiler

 

[Anti Guy]

Maybe I just don't like Andy, I don't know. I never played any of the DS ones, so I had no idea that what you're saying is something that happened (which is pretty cool), so why not just put one of them in instead of Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnndyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

Damnit, Andy.

*SPOILERS* But if you don't care... CO badassery in action
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=En1O7rpmmC0#t=8m18s

Yeah Andy's a dumb twit, but he's the closest thing the series has to a main character. Kinda like Marth for Fire Emblem until Ike came along.

 

[ChronoBound]

*SPOILERS* But if you don't care... CO badassery in action
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=En1O7rpmmC0#t=8m18s

Yeah Andy's a dumb twit, but he's the closest thing the series has to a main character. Kinda like Marth for Fire Emblem until Ike came along.

Technically, Days of Ruin characters don't qualify since none made any appearance in Brawl.

The truly funny thing is that the Days of Ruin characters were designed by the artist for the King of Fighters.

 

[giantrobots]

but what do u think of keeping TP ganon as is and then bringing OOT ganon in as a clone engine character?

I think it is unlikely that the Zelda franchise would get an additional representation, but that being said, I think
it would be very cool to get to be able to both keep the current Ganondorf and get a new one with projectiles and magic attacks. However, what would you name them? Maybe having Demise as a character might be easier for the character select screen to differentiate than "Ganondorf" and "Classic Ganondorf"?

I thought this Demise texture looked cool, as a hypothetical new skin for the current Ganondorf, so that the OoT model could be used for the new moveset. (Maybe the TP skin could be the alternate costume for Demise.)

Spoiler

 

[Solbliminal]

Why stop at G-Dorf? I say we drop Ivysaur and Squirtle in favor of Venustoise. While we are at it we can replace half the cast with Sandbag and Vanilla-knight.

 

[ChronoBound]

The way I see it is:

Project M is supposed to be a re-creation of Melee. Hence why Falco and Marth (and Ganondorf) were changed to be truer to their Melee selves. So it would be "out of character" for Project M to make Ganondorf anything other than a Falcon-clone since that would be untrue to his Melee self.

However, supposing the above is untrue. There is the very real possibility that Sakurai is going to overhaul Ganondorf in Smash 4 (Sakurai has said is going to do this with a number of characters). Just look at how much Bowser has changed (and Pit as well).

Sakurai probably knows of the huge demand there is a non-clone Ganondorf, and considering there were probably be less newcomers added this time for Smash 4 than there was for Brawl, Sakurai will at the very least consider it.

Basically, I think it would be for the best for the Project M team to wait and see before deciding whether to pursue Black Shadow and de-cloned Ganondorf.

 

[ChronoBound]

The fact that they just came out with a Turbo Mode Ganondorf video might seem as though the team itself is quite comfortable with Ganondorf being the way he is. Though this Black Shadow idea is still relatively new as far the Project M community is concerned.

 

[red9rd]

I thinkit is unlikely that the Zelda franchise would get an additional representation, but that being said, I think
it would be very cool to get to be able to both keep the current Ganondorf and get a new one with projectiles and magic attacks! However, what would you name them? Maybe having Demise as a character might be easier for the character select screen to differentiate than "Ganondorf" and "Classic Ganondorf"?

I thought this Demise texture looked cool, as a hypothetical new skin for the current Ganondorf, so that the OoT model could be used for the new moveset. (Maybe the TP skin could be the alternate costume for Demise.)

[spoilers]
<img src="http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/8459/al1202232139binout.jpg">
[/spoilers]

God Dammit No Demise. We all agreed many many a time Skyward Sword wasn't real except for Groose.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Assessment: Black Shadow + Ganondorf is currently a very strong candidate

According to the 20-something odd votes from random people in this thread, I wouldn't go around touting this is something a lot of people want, personally I think the idea is unnecessary and stupid

 

[red9rd]

 

[ChronoBound]

Didn't appear in Brawl.

 

[Solbliminal]

According to the 20-something odd votes from random people in this thread, I wouldn't go around touting this is something a lot of people want, personally I think the idea is unnecessary and stupid

Fffff!!! Sanity!!! There is a person I missed seeing posts from~

 

[ChronoBound]

The thing is, do people actually support Black Shadow, or do they simply want a new Ganondorf, and some other character to take the current Ganondorf's moveset, that way the fans of the Melee/Brawl moveset don't end up losing their main?

 

[red9rd]

Didn't appear in Brawl.

I'm afraid your wrong.

 

[ChronoBound]

I'm afraid your wrong.

I was talking about a generic Battalion Wars soldier, not a generic Advance Wars soldier.

Secondly, barely anyone would be happy with a generic character.

 

[Chzrm3]

The thing is, do people actually support Black Shadow, or do they simply want a new Ganondorf, and some other character to take the current Ganondorf's moveset, that way the fans of the Melee/Brawl moveset don't end up losing their main?

Yeah, that's a big part of it. If it wasn't for this idea, I don't think a single person would've suggested Black Shadow.

I agree 100% with what Hungry Headcrab has been saying, especially "I don't play Black Shadow. I play Ganondorf."

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

So this topic turned into another Dorf-debate? *sigh*

 

[l3thargy]

Honest question here.

Do you REALLY believe that Sakurai has any say in changing the elements of a character of a franchise he has no part in? Or that the Legend of Zelda developers would really change their character based on some sort of hint from Sakurai in the form of a Smash Bros. character?

Ganondorf is a monster. He represents pure power and the will to use it. This carries over in all of the games to some extent, but is especially prevalent in the three games in which he is a human. Smash conveys this very well, and he can easily become even less of a clone than he already is just through (dare I say it again?) a few minor tweaks.




And anybody who can't get over Ganondorf's moveset as is could just put a Black Shadow skin over Ganondorf. That argument is just inherently flawed, and doesn't solve the problem that, for many people at least, you would be taking away their favorite character.

how would Ganon be taken away from them? he'd get a new move-set and anyone who'd like to have him with his old move-set could always download a texture and slap it on black shadow, and I'm not just about Black shadow getting Ganon's move-set, if that was the case i would have just downloaded a texture and dropped it

I'm pro to Ganon getting a new move-set that I feel would better represent him, but I still feel another character such as Black Shadow could fit his old move-set better IMO and would allow us to play as another f-zero character that's series desperately needs another slot and I'm pretty sure the other people who voted for it agrees with me on this to at least some degree

 

[Trinsic]

Secondly, barely anyone would be happy with a generic character.

People seem to like the Pokemon just fine.

 

[Friesnchip]

People seem to like the Pokemon just fine.

OH SNAP THE GAUNTLET HAS BEEN THROWN DOWN. THINGS ARE ABOUT TO GET REAL UP IN THIS THREAD.

 

[crabsmack]

Not sure if this has been brought up, but all clone engine characters added thus far have already had sound effects from Melee. Pichu could obviously be done this way, and Young Link if he were for some reason added. But for everyone else, does the PMBR really have the resources to record their own voices and sound effects to match Nintendo quality? Even if they were ripped from other games the character appeared in, they'd probably feel a bit off.

I think this is an important consideration, and makes many characters a lot less feasible. It also makes a few (e.g. Ridley: already has Brawl effects) seem like a more likely possibility.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

how would Ganon be taken away from them? he'd get a new move-set and anyone who'd like to have him with his old move-set could always download a texture and slap it on black shadow, and I'm not just about Black shadow getting Ganon's move-set, if that was the case i would have just downloaded a texture and dropped it

I'm pro to Ganon getting a new move-set that I feel would better represent him, but I still feel another character such as Black Shadow could fit his old move-set better IMO and would allow us to play as another f-zero character that's series desperately needs another slot and I'm pretty sure the other people who voted for it agrees with me on this to at least some degree

Why would it be expected for current Ganondorf players to just deal with the change by slapping a texture on Black Shadow when you clearly aren't satisfied to throw a Black Shadow texture on Ganondorf and be done with it? I get that you want a new moveset, but it's hypocritical and insensitive to just screw over another segment of the player base for your own desires, especially considering that the change affects you less than the players who would be upset by the change.

It's not enough that the moveset would still be present in the game, any fans of a character would be outraged if a change like this took place with their main. For example, players of Link, or at least a majority of them I'm sure, enjoy both the character and the moveset. If they were separated for some reason, you can be damn sure that the ability to replace the skin with the original wouldn't appease them, regardless of whether or not the new moveset better represented the character. This same analogy can literally be applied to every other character in the cast. Players play with the character and the moveset both, separation is not an option.

One last time for good measure: I don't play Black Shadow. I play Ganondorf. I play as the stompy punch-monster that has been in the game twelve years. Anything less would be an insult. An insult that would ONLY serve to make the game less enjoyable for those players.

All I'm really asking for here is empathy.

 

[l3thargy]

It's not enough that the moveset would still be present in the game, any fans of a character would be outraged if a change like this took place with their main. For example, players of Link, or at least a majority of them I'm sure, enjoy both the character and the moveset. If they were separated for some reason, you can be damn sure that the ability to replace the skin with the original wouldn't appease them, regardless of whether or not the new moveset better represented the character. This same analogy can literally be applied to every other character in the cast. Players play with the character and the moveset both, separation is not an option.

if this was Link instead of Ganon, then I'd more then be willing to get a skin to replace who ever took Links move-set (he'd still have the same moves as link, just be a different skin that would easily be changed back) instead of complaining about my character getting a new move-set (or the opposite depending on if the new move-set looks funner to play as I'd just play with that) I've been playing smash as link since I was only Nine years old and haven't dropped him once throughout all the time I've been smashing, hell the reason why I still play smash is because of the Zelda characters, but If link's skin was replaced and I could change it back with ease (again depending on if I like the replacement character or not) and have another link with a different move-set in as well why would I have any reason to whine, it just means I get three links to play as instead of just TP and WW

One last time for good measure: I don't play Black Shadow. I play Ganondorf. I play as the stompy punch-monster that has been in the game twelve years. Anything less would be an insult. An insult that would ONLY serve to make the game less enjoyable for those players.

All I'm really asking for here is empathy.

I just don't even care anymore, I've said this like 2-4 times now already, You have your reason's not to want this character to change or to have black shadow in, and I have my own for wanting the changes, we should all just agree to disagree and talk about something else seeing as neither party can come to a compromise and have been going around in pointless circles for the last 4-5 pages, so let the people vote for what they want to vote for and lets all talk about something more productive

 

[ChronoBound]

One last time for good measure: I don't play Black Shadow. I play Ganondorf. I play as the stompy punch-monster that has been in the game twelve years. Anything less would be an insult. An insult that would ONLY serve to make the game less enjoyable for those players.

All I'm really asking for here is empathy.

I am definitely sympathetic to both sides. However, Ganondorf has already been established in Project M, which is as a more refined and balanced version of his Melee/Brawl self. Just today a Turbo Mode video was released of Ganondorf.

Although there is lots of people who want a change up, there is also a lot of people that love Captain Ganondorf and wouldn't have him any other way.

As I said before, for those wanting Ganondorf to be changed, Sakurai could very well end up giving you what you want.

 

[FinalStarmen]

+1 Vote:
- Ridley
- Lyndis
- Sami
- Paper Mario
- Samurai Goroh



1/2 Vote:
- Isaac
- Dixie
- Pichu
- Waluigi
- Krystal
- Andy
- Hector
- Sukapon



-1 Vote:
- Dark Samus
- Any Sonic/MSG series character
- Bowser Jr.
- Black Shadow

 

[Chzrm3]

Not sure if this has been brought up, but all clone engine characters added thus far have already had sound effects from Melee. Pichu could obviously be done this way, and Young Link if he were for some reason added. But for everyone else, does the PMBR really have the resources to record their own voices and sound effects to match Nintendo quality? Even if they were ripped from other games the character appeared in, they'd probably feel a bit off.

I think this is an important consideration, and makes many characters a lot less feasible. It also makes a few (e.g. Ridley: already has Brawl effects) seem like a more likely possibility.

Oh yeah, that's interesting. I wonder if there are enough sound effects for characters like Dixie and Toad in their upcoming games. I've also been wondering for a little while if the PMBR would ever go as far as doing their own VO work. That's probably stretching it, but it'd be really legit if they had a character they needed voices for (Like Isaac, who I'm pretty sure has almost nothing outside of whatever his AT says) and they just did it themselves.

 

[l3thargy]

I am definitely sympathetic to both sides. However, Ganondorf has already been established in Project M, which is as a more refined and balanced version of his Melee/Brawl self. Just today a Turbo Mode video was released of Ganondorf.

"everything is subject to change" that is Project M's motto, so why couldn't a clone such as Ganondorf get a new move-set well giving his old one to someone who would make a better F-zero clone?

Although there is lots of people who want a change up, there is also a lot of people that love Captain Ganondorf and wouldn't have him any other way.

what would stop someone from just replacing the texture back to being Ganon? It's what I do With Oot link over Twilight Princess link and it wouldn't be hard to find a normal Ganon model with all it's palettes

As I said before, for those wanting Ganondorf to be changed, Sakurai could very well end up giving you what you want.

I don't want to come off as ungrateful for all the man has done but this is the guy who thought tripping was a good idea in a fighting game, My faith in him having the clone characters get there own move-sets for the next smash is kind of dwindling here (that and three land masters really?)

 

[red9rd]

"everything is subject to change" that is Project M's motto, so why couldn't a clone such as Ganondorf get a new move-set well giving his old one to someone who would make a better F-zero clone?



what would stop someone from just replacing the texture back to being Ganon? It's what I do With Oot link over Twilight Princess link and it wouldn't be hard to find a normal Ganon model with all it's palettes



I don't want to come off as ungrateful for all the man has done but this is the guy who thought tripping was a good idea in a fighting game, My faith in him having the clone characters get there own move-sets for the next smash is kind of dwindling here (that and three land masters really?)

The argument to this simply why don't we do the same for Ness and Lucas.

.

I don't think were doing the voting list thing. even so its sad to see someone with your username not go for someone from mother.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

"everything is subject to change" that is Project M's motto, so why couldn't a clone such as Ganondorf get a new move-set well giving his old one to someone who would make a better F-zero clone?

"Everything is subject to change" does not mean fundamentally change an established character for no good reason, especially when those changes would easily alienate a fairly sizable portion of the fan base. I don't believe that even the saltiest anti-Spacie players of our community would suggest a change as alienating as the one suggested for Ganondorf.

what would stop someone from just replacing the texture back to being Ganon? It's what I do With Oot link over Twilight Princess link and it wouldn't be hard to find a normal Ganon model with all it's palettes

Finding the models wouldn't be hard, they all already exist. As does a Black Shadow skin if you have such a love for the character. Access to the models doesn't make it a good decision. This argument is just flawed in so many ways, and I've already stated everything I can, so I'll just leave it at that.

If you want to stop extending this argument, quit making bad points with no thought or concern for the rest of the fans of the game just because you can't accept a character that has been established in Smash for twelve years.

Edit: Sorry. I shouldn't have attacked you like that. Regardless, I stand by my arguments.

 

[ChronoBound]

I don't think were doing the voting list thing. even so its sad to see someone with your username not go for someone from mother.

Look at my username, I am a big fan of EarthBound, yet I think all the playable characters that series needs is Ness and Lucas. Most Mother/EarthBound fans pretty much feel the same way.

 

[red9rd]

"Most"? this word is getting thrown out to much and lately seems to only represent one person.

 

[ChronoBound]

"Most"? this word is getting thrown out to much and lately seems to only represent one person.

I am talking about observations that I have seen. For Smash 4, there is are no Mother characters within the Top 20 most wanted characters, or even Top 30.

The last installment to the series was in 2006, and Itoi (the creator, writer, and director to all three installments) has declared the series "finished". The only installment to have had a formal international release was Mother 2.

So yes, there are actually plausible reasons why a lack of interest for additional Mother characters exists.

So really please don't insult me and say these observations are simply "my opinion only".

 

[Fortress]

"everything is subject to change" that is Project M's motto, so why couldn't a clone such as Ganondorf get a new move-set well giving his old one to someone who would make a better F-zero clone?

Because he's been a well-established character across two (going on three) titles for twelve years. That's like saying, "oh, well, so it turns out Captain Falcon races cars in his down time, his moves are now racing moves", or "hey, so, Fox and Falco don't actually explode into fire, or use deflectors", or something equally as stupid. There's absolutely no reason for Ganondorf to change, and no amount of anybody crying over it is going to change that.

Twelve years. He's been a part of the cast for Three titles now. I don't know what about that argument is so difficult for people to understand. Nobody's going to fix what isn't broken.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Reasons to pick Dark Samus over Ridley
-cooler
-female
-ridley is too big, his size is already set in P:M/brawl
everything in this video which applies just as much to P:M: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_H7X77lM4Y

 

[ChronoBound]

Reasons to pick Dark Samus over Ridley
-cooler
-female
-ridley is too big
everything in this video which applies just as much to P:M: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_H7X77lM4Y

-cooler

Opinion

-female

Only technically. As far as most people are concerned, Dark Samus is an "it".

-ridley is too big

Opinion that has been debunked many times.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I hope you didn't take that post too seriously
I don't see how him being to big has been debunked. His size is already set in brawl/P:M SSE. In every game minus one (Watch the video in my previous post) he has been defined by his size difference between him and Samus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=U_H7X77lM4Y&t=291
This is the ridley you want right? He won't be ridley after PMBR adjusts his model to not look terrible minified. He'll be ridley colored charizard.