New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[AnOkayDM]

All the games where Ganondorf uses his fists came after melee.. so THAT is my problem. Before that it was ALL about magic, his trident and teleporting. I made this argument already, when he punches the sage in TP, that was the warlock punch, which was a LAMEEEE attempt to justify his warlock punch in Melee. But I guess it worked for people such as yourself.
Also like I mentioned, his sword isn't the most important thing, it's the use of his orb projectile and other moves that he's been seen using in the past (flying, teleporting, dark magic force, shooting electricit and even the use of a trident). The sword everyone keeps talking about is just a modernized weapon instead of the trident.

Now....Ganondorf is Ganon in human form, so I don't know where you get off saying hes shown up in only 3 games. He's in LOZ, LOZ2 (kind of), LA (kind of) LTTP, OOT, WW, TP, and in SS it is implied that Demise is Ganons first incarnation.

Dafuq

You forgot the Oracle games. I don't count Zelda II and LA though.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

All the games where Ganondorf uses his fists came after melee.. so THAT is my problem. Before that it was ALL about magic, his trident and teleporting. I made this argument already, when he punches the sage in TP, that was the warlock punch, which was a LAMEEEE attempt to justify his warlock punch in Melee. But I guess it worked for people such as yourself.
Also like I mentioned, his sword isn't the most important thing, it's the use of his orb projectile and other moves that he's been seen using in the past (flying, teleporting, dark magic force, shooting electricit and even the use of a trident). The sword everyone keeps talking about is just a modernized weapon instead of the trident.

Now....Ganondorf is Ganon in human form, so I don't know where you get off saying hes shown up in only 3 games. He's in LOZ, LOZ2 (kind of), LA (kind of) LTTP, OOT, WW, TP, and in SS it is implied that Demise is Ganons first incarnation.

Dafuq

Who cares when things happened? This is now. The present. You are talking about adding a sword to his moveset which you have to know only became relevant after Melee, and even then it is such a small part of his character that it barely matters. Not to mention that the Space World demo is so irrelevant that it shouldn't even be considered.

Magic is justifiable, and is already present in his moveset. It could always be more relevant, but that's more in the realm of a minor tweak to the character, which is ALL Ganondorf needs.

Edit: I understand he has shown up in many games, as pig Ganon. It is hardly justifiable to base his moveset in human form on his abilities as a pig. That would be like basing Link's moveset off of being a Deku Scrub, Goron, Zora, or Fierce Deity because of Majora's Mask.

 

[Fortress]

All the games where Ganondorf uses his fists came after melee.. so THAT is my problem. Before that it was ALL about magic, his trident and teleporting.

So, you want him to be a boar? I've said it already, opponents of Ganondorf's 'clone' status are, the way I understand, a vocal minority. Nobody needs to relegate Ganondorf to a brand-new character slot, of which there are a low amount of to spare, and replace it with what will essentially be another clone, just to give F-Zero more representation. Nobody's going to break Ganondorf down, build him from the ground up, and have him soak up a spot just so there can be another clone for the sake of F-Zero. A new character for the series would be great, but Black Shadow is not it.

Ganon's fine the way he is, Ganon players will tell you that.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Don't need to. I've played through the Custom Robo series enough. Ray, or any custom robo for that matter, would just be poor character choices. No character in the game, not even Samus or Link, have enough articles available with which to clone from. Seeing as Robo's have at least three types of projectiles on any given build, it's just not viable. The behaviors of those weapons just aren't close to what any of the cast use in their own weaponry. Articles, from what I understand, are a pain to mess around with, and projectile-heavy characters, I would also understand, aren't first picks for choices to use, just because of how difficult it would be to find a character to clone them from with the right amount of projectile weaponry.

Umm, hes pretty small as the assist trophy in brawl.. Too small I think..
And I don't think he needs that many articles.. 2-3 would suffice. The rest of the moves can be gun related, but not projectiles.

If i take my move set from above:

Neutral B - hold B for a "machine gun" attack like in the video - using samus' Neutral B or side b they can change the article to make it work like a machine gun.

Side B - if you notice at the end of the video he kind of dashes forward before blasting the robot in the face. This is actually a move he has in custom robo - This doesn't need an article, it would just be an explosion at the tip of the gun in the oponents face.

Up B - flips upside down and shoots missiles out of his back which fire directly down while boosting him upward at the same time - using samus' down b projectile, it can be edited to look like a missile, and rather than free falling, it would have some momentum.

Down B - Chargeable projectile like samus Neutral B, but he can move around like when charging Dedede's hammer. This projectile could kind of spray out like a shotgun (kind of like the one move one of the other robots use in the CR video) OR it could just shoot straight out like samus'. - this can use samus' side b atricle or neutral b, which they could edit to be chargeable in the way i described (i'm not sure what would work better, samus' missiles for this attack or samus' neutral b article)

Was that why u think hes a poor choice? or do you have other reasons?

 

[l3thargy]

All the games where Ganondorf uses his fists came after melee.. so THAT is my problem. Before that it was ALL about magic, his trident and teleporting. I made this argument already, when he punches the sage in TP, that was the warlock punch, which was a LAMEEEE attempt to justify his warlock punch in Melee. But I guess it worked for people such as yourself.
Also like I mentioned, his sword isn't the most important thing, it's the use of his orb projectile and other moves that he's been seen using in the past (flying, teleporting, dark magic force, shooting electricit and even the use of a trident). The sword everyone keeps talking about is just a modernized weapon instead of the trident.

Now....Ganondorf is Ganon in human form, so I don't know where you get off saying hes shown up in only 3 games. He's in LOZ, LOZ2 (kind of), LA (kind of) LTTP, OOT, WW, TP, and in SS it is implied that Demise is Ganons first incarnation.

Dafuq

he's been in all of them but like 5 but yeah

also I posted the video in response to you bringing up cutscenes of him simply back handing zelda and link in ww and punching that one sage I figured if you where allowed to post cutscene things I might as well dig up that old as hell video also because of this All the games where Ganondorf uses his fists came after melee

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

he's been in all of them but like 5 but yeah

also I posted the video in response to you bringing up cutscenes of him simply back handing zelda and link in ww and punching that one sage I figured if you where allowed to post cutscene things I might as well dig up that old as hell video also because of this All the games where Ganondorf uses his fists came after melee

First off, I brought up numerous cutscenes where he uses his fists and raw power. Don't undermine my point by citing the mostly insignificant backhand, which is just another piece of evidence I was adding to a series of scenes showing Ganon and his fisticuffs.

The Space World demo is just a technical demo, nothing more. If there was a scene even somewhat like that in a game, it could be added in support to giving him a sword, but as it stands now the swords are not a large part of the Ganon persona.

 

[red9rd]

I thought we all agreed multiple times that Skyward sword never happened except for the character Groose, so Demise wasn't real.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Ganondorf is extremely powerful in every way, shape in form, in any incarnation he's appeared as (except for the one where he's a pile of ashes in Zelda II; he was only slightly less powerful in that one, and a little more dead). End of story. Punching, magic, Latin, and strength; it's all heavily implied by his own universe that it's an inherent part of his character. Plenty of characters break the own 'rules' of their respective universes within their games, and Ganondorf is no exception.

Bottom line: he is who he is, he doesn't need changing, his Super Smash Bros. incarnation has been well-established and does not need to be changed. For anybody saying he "just doesn't make sense", please consider Fox before his Gamecube titles. Consider Captain Falcon in relation to anything he's been in. Consider Peach. Ganondorf needs no changing. The dude is generalized as just being stupid powerful in any of the games he's starred in, and I think that Melee, Brawl, and Project M have done him justice in his moveset. His character has been established, and it would be a plain disrespect to just off the Ganondorf we know. Just because he has x attack in y game does not mean he has to be a mirror image of his in-universe self. Him being as powerful as he is in the Smash Universe is a good representation of the man.

His smash bros incarnation should have NEVER been established in this way and it should be UN-ESTABLISHED. SAYING ITS ESTABLISHED MAKES ME SOOO MAADDDDDD!!!! Like holy crap! Sakurai did a stupid stupid stupid stupid idiotic LAZYYYY friggin thing in melee and made him a clone. Why? WHY?? NO!!! It should not be accepted. It should be changed. His power can be depicted in other ways rather than his punches and kicks. God!
Now I have to go calm down. Thanks a lot!

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Pre-Melee is a stupid argument, but anyway, why are cutscenes off limits for justifying his character, yet a silly non-canon technical demo justifies fundamentally changing a character in their entirety?

I've said everything I can say, so this is just repeating myself at this point. Ganondorf ONLY needs minor tweaks to fully embody his LoZ character. A full overhaul is, frankly, a waste of time and a betrayal to all of his current fans just to shoehorn a terrible character like Black Shadow onto the roster.

This hits the nail on the head. Ganondorf had something in a demonstration of an incomplete game, and that's not justification for why it's not present in the smash bros. universe. If anything, through all of my time playing the LoZ franchise, everytime I've seenGanondorf, he's been defined as a big, scary dude who could trample an elephant. The dude's huge. There's just not enough justification for the PM:BR to turn around, change Ganondorf into a totally different character, and work out an entire new moveset for a vocal minority of those who are against his current iteration, just to replace him with a character who has even less visual representation of his would-be moveset (I'm looking at you, Black Shadow).

We're (at least I'm not) using the clip as justification for sword use. I'm using it as evidence that they had plans to have him use a sword BEFORE melee. So saying that the sword came into effect because of melee is a fallacy.

And againnn the sword is NOT my main concern!

 

[Anti Guy]

Well heads up.

...by heads up I mean actually telling me what you're changing.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

His smash bros incarnation should have NEVER been established in this way and it should be UN-ESTABLISHED. SAYING ITS ESTABLISHED MAKES ME SOOO MAADDDDDD!!!! Like holy crap! Sakurai did a stupid stupid stupid stupid idiotic LAZYYYY friggin thing in melee and made him a clone. Why? WHY?? NO!!! It should not be accepted. It should be changed. His power can be depicted in other ways rather than his punches and kicks. God!
Now I have to go calm down. Thanks a lot!

YEAH! HE SHOULD USE A MOVESET THAT INCORPORATES THINGS HE DOES IN THE GAME LIKE MAGIC AND PUNCHING PEOPLE!!! ARRRGGGHHH!!!!! SAKURAI SO DUMB!!!!! NESS SHOULDN'T HAVE ANY OF HIS MOVES BECAUSE HE DOESN'T USE THEM IN EARTHBOUND!!!! LINK NEVER KICKS IN THE GAME, HIS NAIR IS A TRAVESTY AND MUST BE ABOLISHED!!! CAPTAIN FALCON SHOULD BE IN A CAR!!!!! REST DOESN'T EVEN HURT PEOPLE IN POKEMON!! MEWTWO CAN'T EVEN LEARN SHADOW CLAW!!!! WHEN HAS SNAKE EVER USED A MORTAR!!!!!????? WHY HASN'T ANYONE BROUGHT THIS NEWS TO THE INTERNET!!!!????

Seriously though, this is getting degenerate. We're better than this.

 

[payasofobia]

Simple:

+Ridley.
+BLACK SHADOW/GANONDORF.

These are the ones that actually have great importance while having an actual possibility of being finished in a timely manner.

Metroid needs more reps and Ridley seems like such a no-brainer of a character choice that the possibility of him not appearing in Kerfuffle boggles my mind.

Black Shadow and Ganondorf, on the other hand, are the most cost-effective choices. Ease-to-make, available models and great arguments for their inclusion. F-Zero needs more reps, Ganondorf should have cut all ties with the Cap for good and become his own character. Keep the same basic Ganon gameplay, replace his most useless moves with remade Trident/Sword attacks and do away with his night-useless specials for more reliable ones that focus on his spellcasting. Meanwhile, Black Shadow could also be completely different in his playstyle, even with moves that neither Ganon nor Cap has. The point is making two new characters of a sort rather than just making a new inclusion a clone.

As for half votes, mostly because I believe the would cost precious development time in spite of having nice concepts:

>Isaac.
>Sukapon.
>Paper Mario.

Then there's the ones that should not be:

-Shadow: No more Sonic.
-Knuckles: No more Sonic.
-Tails: Please, no more Sonic.
-Waluigi: I hope Waluigi gets hit by a train.

 

[Fortress]

I'd be glad to break it down for you. Pay attention, and be sure to take notes.

First off, let's start by mentioning the video you linked to. For those behind on things, it's this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-4EwKAGvqQ]Tadaaaaa[/url].

This is the opening scene of Custom Robo for the Gamecube. The weapon you first see the Ray II using is the Basic Gun, the first one you start with. It fires in only three-round bursts, and the opening cinematic portrays its capabilities (like most of the other weapons and acrobatics) up a lot. The left-handed weapon you see, is the Basic Bomb. Same deal; played up.

Umm, hes pretty small as the assist trophy in brawl.. Too small I think..

Look it up. Most robos measure up at about a foot in height. The assist trophy height is about as accurate as it's going to get for Ray II's height.

And I don't think he needs that many articles.. 2-3 would suffice. The rest of the moves can be gun related, but not projectiles.

In-universe, Robo's have the following types of parts, of which they can equip one at a time: Robo (body), Gun (right arm), Bomb (left arm), Pod (back), and Legs. Robo's practically ooze projectiles. It's all they use, save for their sole tackle and the Knuckle Gun. If you were having a fit about Ganondorf not being 'accurate', I'd like to hear what you think about Robo's 'not having projectiles'.

Neutral B - hold B for a "machine gun" attack like in the video - using samus' Neutral B or side b they can change the article to make it work like a machine gun.

The only weapons within the Custom Robo universe that fire rapidly like that, and in a straight line, would be the starting Basic Gun (three round burst), and the Gatling Gun (~seven round bursts). A side-special would be more well-suited as a Bomb weapon from the series, as they perform more closely to Samus' missiles than a machine gun would, and it'd be easier to change her weapons as such.

Side B - if you notice at the end of the video he kind of dashes forward before blasting the robot in the face. This is actually a move he has in custom robo - This doesn't need an article, it would just be an explosion at the tip of the gun in the oponents face.

Disclaimer: this is actually not a move that the Ray II possesses within the game. The 'attacks' you see are simply the Ray II performing the basic dash movement in the series (direction + A), and firing the Shotgun that he acquires in the video up close. The closest anything any Robo in the series can do to a physical attack is their sole 'tackle', by hitting the X button.

Up B - flips upside down and shoots missiles out of his back which fire directly down while boosting him upward at the same time - using samus' down b projectile, it can be edited to look like a missile, and rather than free falling, it would have some momentum.

This is called a Pod. It's a backpack of sorts that functions as a campy sort of 'support' part for most Robos, and also serves as a part to assist in comboing. In gameplay, the Basic Pod (the one you see the Ray II equipped with), flies over the user, lands, and proceeds to fly in a straight line until it hits a wall, at which point it glances off until it hits something else, or explodes. The closest thing in Smash Bros that it would compare to are King DeDeDe's Waddle De's, believe it or not.

Down B - Chargeable projectile like samus Neutral B, but he can move around like when charging Dedede's hammer. This projectile could kind of spray out like a shotgun (kind of like the one move one of the other robots use in the CR video) OR it could just shoot straight out like samus'. - this can use samus' side b atricle or neutral b, which they could edit to be chargeable in the way i described (i'm not sure what would work better, samus' missiles for this attack or samus' neutral b article)

Except no weapon can hold a 'charge' within Custom Robo. Plus, holding Down, B, and moving around at the same time with the kind of movement that Custom Robo's are known for in-game would be difficult in Smash Bros, to say the least.

Was that why u think hes a poor choice? or do you have other reasons?

I think that he's a poor choice because nobody in the cast has as many true projectiles as any Robo from the CR series. Play it sometime, instead of watching the opening cutscene of one game, and you'll see what I mean.

 

[trojanpooh]

Simple:
Black Shadow and Ganondorf, on the other hand, are the most cost-effective choices. Ease-to-make, available models and great arguments for their inclusion. F-Zero needs more reps, Ganondorf should have cut all ties with the Cap for good and become his own character. Keep the same basic Ganon gameplay, replace his most useless moves with remade Trident/Sword attacks and do away with his night-useless specials for more reliable ones that focus on his spellcasting. Meanwhile, Black Shadow could also be completely different in his playstyle, even with moves that neither Ganon nor Cap has. The point is making two new characters of a sort rather than just making a new inclusion a clone.

This is a good way to piss a ton of people off. Ganondorf's moveset is perfect as it is. If they do choose to change up Ganondorf the only way any Ganon mains will even consider accepting the change is if someone else takes his moveset from him 100%. Even then I'm sure many of them won't be happy that their favorite character is now a nobody from a dead racing game. Aesthetics are far more important than people give them credit for.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Who cares when things happened? This is now. The present. You are talking about adding a sword to his moveset which you have to know only became relevant after Melee, and even then it is such a small part of his character that it barely matters. Not to mention that the Space World demo is so irrelevant that it shouldn't even be considered.

Well like I said in my angry post above, this IS NOT how Ganondorf should be presented in Smash Bros. Not in the past, present, or future.

And, a million times I've said the sword is not the most important part. My move set has an interesting way to make the sword usable, but its not absolutely necessary.

I've said this before as well:
His "B" moves should be mostly magic attacks, and his "A" moves should be a mixture of hand to hand, magic and sword/trident. So the sword is a small part of what I have in mind. And it doesn't HAVE to be used at all. The ICONIC magic attacks are the ones that are needed.

Oh, I also wanted to speak to this.. I mentioned this before as well...

Ganondorfs move set should be STRONGLY based off of OOT because in melee they gave him his OOT look. And not to mention OOT is when the human form of Ganon was introduced. So since the model Ganondorf comes from OOT and OOT was the most important Zelda release before melee, that is where his move set should have been taken from. So I can say with great confidence that OOT Ganondorf is where his move set should have been and should currently be primarily based off of!

 

[Grey Belnades]

+1 Vote

Lyn - I just want to add that she also an archer once she is promoted to Blade Lord.

Black Shadow

Krystal

1/2 Vote

Issac

-1 Vote

Pichu

 

[Fortress]

I missed this while typing about Custom Robo.

His smash bros incarnation should have NEVER been established in this way and it should be UN-ESTABLISHED. SAYING ITS ESTABLISHED MAKES ME SOOO MAADDDDDD!!!

Go tell that to Sakurai, then. Ganondorf's character has been the same for two games now. It's established, and no amount of yelling, crying, and bedwetting is going to change that

There's no justification to just remove Ganondorf. Maybe if he'd only been present in Brawl or Melee and not the other, but not when he's consistently been the same character for two games now. Besides, there's enough about Ganondorf to make him unique from Cap. Falcon.

And it shouldn't at all matter what the characters can do in their own games, this is Smash Bros. Who cares? Link jumps. Something he's done in only a few games in the sense that we see in Smash Bros.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

YEAH! HE SHOULD USE A MOVESET THAT INCORPORATES THINGS HE DOES IN THE GAME LIKE MAGIC AND PUNCHING PEOPLE!!! ARRRGGGHHH!!!!! SAKURAI SO DUMB!!!!! NESS SHOULDN'T HAVE ANY OF HIS MOVES BECAUSE HE DOESN'T USE THEM IN EARTHBOUND!!!! LINK NEVER KICKS IN THE GAME, HIS NAIR IS A TRAVESTY AND MUST BE ABOLISHED!!! CAPTAIN FALCON SHOULD BE IN A CAR!!!!! REST DOESN'T EVEN HURT PEOPLE IN POKEMON!! MEWTWO CAN'T EVEN LEARN SHADOW CLAW!!!! WHEN HAS SNAKE EVER USED A MORTAR!!!!!????? WHY HASN'T ANYONE BROUGHT THIS NEWS TO THE INTERNET!!!!????

Seriously though, this is getting degenerate. We're better than this.

Ya I know. I'm being slightly sarcastic with my anger though

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Go tell that to Sakurai, then. Ganondorf's character has been the same for two games now. It's established, and no amount of yelling, crying, and bedwetting is going to change that

I've made a petition so I'm already working on that

There's no justification to just remove Ganondorf. Maybe if he'd only been present in Brawl or Melee and not the other, but not when he's consistently been the same character for two games now. Besides, there's enough about Ganondorf to make him unique from Cap. Falcon.

And it shouldn't at all matter what the characters can do in their own games, this is Smash Bros. Who cares? Link jumps. Something he's done in only a few games in the sense that we see in Smash Bros.

Also the fact that they slightly de cloned him in brawl gives me some hope that they will work on changing him even more n SSB4

 

[payasofobia]

This is a good way to piss a ton of people off. Ganondorf's moveset is perfect as it is. If they do choose to change up Ganondorf the only way any Ganon mains will even consider accepting the change is if someone else takes his moveset from him 100%. Even then I'm sure many of them won't be happy that their favorite character is now a nobody from a dead racing game. Aesthetics are far more important than people give them credit for.

Not changing it is another way of pissing people who hated what they did to Ganondorf.

This is a votation and not just punchy Ganon mains matter but also those that would have enjoyed if the terrible, slow, inneffective parts of his moveset had more range and more individuality. If it really is too much of an issue for that Ganon section, then they can have Ganondorf as an alternate Black Shadow skin or something.

 

[Fortress]

I've made a petition so I'm already working on that

Tell me when that actually gets anywhere.

Also the fact that they slightly de cloned him in brawl gives me some hope that they will work on changing him even more n SSB4

The game's not even out yet, and we're not here to talk Smash 4.

 

[l3thargy]

I thought we were done arguing about this Ganon black shadow business the other day when we all said we are tired of it, so lets all just agree to disagree and move on already and let people vote for what they want to vote, or perhaps we could talk about possible move sets for characters like ridley, pichu, King k rool, dixie kong, etc, etc.

 

[Fortress]

Not changing it is another way of pissing people who hated what they did to Ganondorf.

This is a votation and not just punchy Ganon mains matter but also those that would have enjoyed if the terrible, slow, inneffective parts of his moveset had more range and more individuality. If it really is too much of an issue for that Ganon section, then they can have Ganondorf as an alternate Black Shadow skin or something.

Again, why? Why have Black Shadow? Then you're just going to have another character from the F-Zero universe being a slow, Captain Falcon clone, and we all know that that wouldn't wor-- Oh, wait, we have Ganondorf to fill that little hole in our hearts.

G-man is fine as-is. Again, there's enough about him to completely separate him from Cap.

 

[Solbliminal]

...by heads up I mean actually telling me what you're changing.

5. On my +vote. Changed B.s./G.Dorf to Primid. Yes I totally chose Primid over Ganon. After a convincing 3-4 pages of arguments, I decided I'd rather support an oddball character.

 

[AnOkayDM]

I must have missed half-votes or something. Gonna have to revise my initial votes.

FOR:
Ridley (or Dark Samus if not Ridley)
Paper Mario
Dixie

HALF:
Isaac
Black Shadow/Ganon

AGAINST:
Waluigi
Krystal

Everyone else is basically a meh to me. I'd rather not have more Sonic characters, I'd rather not have Pichu, I'd rather not have Lyn, I'd rather not have more Mario characters like Toad or Bowser Jr...but I won't be upset if they get in, unlike Waluigi and Krystal. Everyone not mentioned I have no opinion on.

 

[trojanpooh]

Not changing it is another way of pissing people who hated what they did to Ganondorf.

This is a votation and not just punchy Ganon mains matter but also those that would have enjoyed if the terrible, slow, inneffective parts of his moveset had more range and more individuality. If it really is too much of an issue for that Ganon section, then they can have Ganondorf as an alternate Black Shadow skin or something.

You're suggesting that they make 2 new characters, neither of which are actually the original Ganondorf moveset. How is that a solution to anything? And nobody gets pissed by the status quo, don't be absurd.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Well like I said in my angry post above, this IS NOT how Ganondorf should be presented in Smash Bros. Not in the past, present, or future.

And, a million times I've said the sword is not the most important part. My move set has an interesting way to make the sword usable, but its not absolutely necessary.

I've said this before as well:
His "B" moves should be mostly magic attacks, and his "A" moves should be a mixture of hand to hand, magic and sword/trident. So the sword is a small part of what I have in mind. And it doesn't HAVE to be used at all. The ICONIC magic attacks are the ones that are needed.

Oh, I also wanted to speak to this.. I mentioned this before as well...

Ganondorfs move set should be STRONGLY based off of OOT because in melee they gave him his OOT look. And not to mention OOT is when the human form of Ganon was introduced. So since the model Ganondorf comes from OOT and OOT was the most important Zelda release before melee, that is where his move set should have been taken from. So I can say with great confidence that OOT Ganondorf is where his move set should have been and should currently be primarily based off of!

Most characters in Smash are represented as the sum or base of their series or character. Link looks like TP Link now, but he is still simply a conglomeration of all Links that have ever existed. This was true when he was still based off of OoT. He doesn't have his giant wrecking ball, or floaty disk thing from TP, he has things that are common throughout the series (otherwise you could argue that OoT adult Link shouldn't have a boomerang, which is a silly argument). Ganondorf should/is a fine representation of the best of all parts Ganondorf in all representations of his human form at this point in time. He could certainly use more magic, but that is a tweak, a complete overhaul is a dumb idea, etc.

I would love to stop arguing about this, but if people keep bringing up points that I disagree with I just can't help myself. It's a sickness, really.

 

[payasofobia]

Again, why? Why have Black Shadow? Then you're just going to have another character from the F-Zero universe being a slow, Captain Falcon clone, and we all know that that wouldn't wor-- Oh, wait, we have Ganondorf to fill that little hole in our hearts.

G-man is fine as-is. Again, there's enough about him to completely separate him from Cap.

Because another rep for a franchise that has been represented since 64 with no new characters would be fair.
Because the moveset and models are already half-way done compared to the "We need to start from scratch" mostly everything that the other options offer.
Because they can make Ganon not be a slow Cap.

And I disagree. Ganon has always been the ineffective, baby clone to Captain Falcon's superior moveset, takes an already situational B-Moveset and makes it slower and gifts us the hilarity of up-tilt, Ganondorf hugging his opponent and Ganondorf pulling off an extremely heroic Rider Kick of Justice.

It has never fit and has never been a good moveset. I still stand by making Ganon an alternate costume for Black Shadow ala Wario.

You're suggesting that they make 2 new characters, neither of which are actually the original Ganondorf moveset. How is that a solution to anything? And nobody gets pissed by the status quo, don't be absurd.

If the status quo wasn't ****, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

I'd be glad to break it down for you. Pay attention, and be sure to take notes.

First off, let's start by mentioning the video you linked to. For those behind on things, it's this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-4EwKAGvqQ]Tadaaaaa[/url].

This is the opening scene of Custom Robo for the Gamecube. The weapon you first see the Ray II using is the Basic Gun, the first one you start with. It fires in only three-round bursts, and the opening cinematic portrays its capabilities (like most of the other weapons and acrobatics) up a lot. The left-handed weapon you see, is the Basic Bomb. Same deal; played up.



Look it up. Most robos measure up at about a foot in height. The assist trophy height is about as accurate as it's going to get for Ray II's height.

K but small characters in smash bros are always resized.. (pikachu, olimar)

In-universe, Robo's have the following types of parts, of which they can equip one at a time: Robo (body), Gun (right arm), Bomb (left arm), Pod (back), and Legs. Robo's practically ooze projectiles. It's all they use, save for their sole tackle and the Knuckle Gun. If you were having a fit about Ganondorf not being 'accurate', I'd like to hear what you think about Robo's 'not having projectiles'.

I see what you're saying with me being inconsistent in accuracy, but Ray isn't as iconic as Ganondorf, so if his moves werent 100% accurate that wouldn't be as awful.

The only weapons within the Custom Robo universe that fire rapidly like that, and in a straight line, would be the starting Basic Gun (three round burst), and the Gatling Gun (~seven round bursts). A side-special would be more well-suited as a Bomb weapon from the series, as they perform more closely to Samus' missiles than a machine gun would, and it'd be easier to change her weapons as such.

I'd be fine with this too.. That works.

Disclaimer: this is actually not a move that the Ray II possesses within the game. The 'attacks' you see are simply the Ray II performing the basic dash movement in the series (direction + A), and firing the Shotgun that he acquires in the video up close. The closest anything any Robo in the series can do to a physical attack is their sole 'tackle', by hitting the X button.

Okay, but in game as you have illustrated, it is I'm sure a good way to approach and attack, so it could easily work as a move in a smash game. Maybe it could be his dash attack rather than his side b though.

This is called a Pod. It's a backpack of sorts that functions as a campy sort of 'support' part for most Robos, and also serves as a part to assist in comboing. In gameplay, the Basic Pod (the one you see the Ray II equipped with), flies over the user, lands, and proceeds to fly in a straight line until it hits a wall, at which point it glances off until it hits something else, or explodes. The closest thing in Smash Bros that it would compare to are King DeDeDe's Waddle De's, believe it or not.

Okay fine, but that opening sequence I posted makes it look so cool and perfect for smash bros.

Except no weapon can hold a 'charge' within Custom Robo. Plus, holding Down, B, and moving around at the same time with the kind of movement that Custom Robo's are known for in-game would be difficult in Smash Bros, to say the least.

I'm sure an alternative move can be placed here. I was just trying to give an interesting move set, and say that samus has enough articles to edit. Ray doesn't have to have a million projectiles, 3 would suffice.

I think that he's a poor choice because nobody in the cast has as many true projectiles as any Robo from the CR series. Play it sometime, instead of watching the opening cutscene of one game, and you'll see what I mean.

Same as my above statement.

 

[Fortress]

My vote stands for minus twelve for everybody on the original list, save for Dark Samus. Here's why.

Pichu: Nope, because we have Pikachu already, along with a good chunk of the Pokemon universe. Save the slot for somebody who deserves it.

Black Shadow: Extra nope, because Ganondorf is fine as he is. F-Zero needs representation like I need more sunshine, but making the PMBR (however laughably unlikely) make a brand-new Ganondorf just to have a remodeled/textured clone of Cap. would be an injustice to Ganondorf, and the "just figure out new Ganondorf" is a bit "**** you" to Ganon mains.

Samurai Goroh: This is the character that F-Zero would need for more representation. He's (somewhat) unique enough in the sense that he wouldn't play like Cap., but the drawback would be that he'd require more work than simply making Black Shadow a model and texture over Ganondorf.

Lyn: Nope. Another sword user, in another series that has enough representation. As much as I love the Fire Emblem series, F-Zero and Metroid should (if not must) come before Pokemon, Fire Emblem, and obscure game from the mid-nineties.

Hector: Same as above, but this one just plain breaks my heart. R.I.P., Hector, you lovable *******.

Sukapon: I actually have no issue with this guy. I'm indifferent towards him.

Waluigi: It just makes sense, considering we have the Mario Brothers team, and Wario on his lonesome, but Super Mario as a series has Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser (and we'll consider Yoshi, Wario, Diddy, and DK to be of their own). As much support as there is out there for him, it'd be wrong of me to vote him up when I have my own opinions on additions to the Fire Emblem roster.

Andy: Stop that. Andy's a general. He doesn't do any of the fighting. He's not out there on the field. Please see the following comic:

[collapse=This is the point I'm making about [I]Andy[/I]]

[/collapse]

Sami: Same complaint as Andy.

Ridley: Yes, it'd be cool, and there's enough support. My only qualm is his size. Though, size shouldn't be an issue since he's been small before. I still lean more towards Dark Samus, as I feel it'd be a better fit and easier to do.

Dark Samus: Read above statement about Ridley.

Issac: Another sword user, and no presence as a fighter outside of an assist trophy. My mentality is that characters who are already playable and from an under-represented series should have priority over newcomers.

Dixie: Um, do whatever, I guess. Is my opinion on that. I haven't played DK Country at all, so I can't take up an opinion.

Paper Mario: There's well more than enough support from him, and his moves would differentiate him from Mario enough, but he's from a series with enough characters already. I'm honestly caught on this one.

Bowser Jr.: Stop that.

Krystal: Star Fox has three characters already, and that's all I should need to say.

Tails: Really, stahp. Sonic and Snake should be the two games in which bringing in more characters due to under-representation should be the exception, and not the rule, for reasons that I think are obvious.


Knuckles/Shadow/Totally Original the Character: I quit.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Most characters in Smash are represented as the sum or base of their series or character. Link looks like TP Link now, but he is still simply a conglomeration of all Links that have ever existed. This was true when he was still based off of OoT. He doesn't have his giant wrecking ball, or floaty disk thing from TP, he has things that are common throughout the series (otherwise you could argue that OoT adult Link shouldn't have a boomerang, which is a silly argument). Ganondorf should/is a fine representation of the best of all parts Ganondorf in all representations of his human form at this point in time. He could certainly use more magic, but that is a tweak, a complete overhaul is a dumb idea, etc.

I would love to stop arguing about this, but if people keep bringing up points that I disagree with I just can't help myself. It's a sickness, really.

God I cant stop lol. Hopefully this reply isn't as controversial..

I really don't see how hand to hand is a good representation of all his past forms... If you're telling me all his human forms, when melee came out the only human form was OOT.. so there was a very simple move set available there which did not involve punches and kicks besides the ground pound. If you're telling me ALL of his past forms, when Ganondorf was originally put into smash, there were 0 (zero) forms of him using hand to hand combat (again besides punching the ground). So this argument you're making just makes no sense to me.

Also I mentioned this but no one replied to it. What if they kept Ganon as he is in his TP form, and then using the clone engine add the OOT model of ganon with a new "proper" ganondorf move set?

 

[Anti Guy]

You're suggesting that they make 2 new characters, neither of which are actually the original Ganondorf moveset. How is that a solution to anything? And nobody gets pissed by the status quo, don't be absurd.

This. Regarding changes to Ganondorf's moveset, that's out of the question. There has already been a lot of work done on his character, so whatever they do with him, that's that. They're not gonna make radical changes if they haven't done so already because all the Ganondorf mains would be used to that. The only possible option is aesthetic change, which would not change any of the moves. The only question about that is how many Ganondorf players would be upset with that.

We've already seen and proven that a majority of players in general support the Black Shadow + Ganondorf option; it's a unique option though because unlike the others where you just add a new character, here you slightly modify an original character and give him a makeover. The bigger question now, and one I think is more relevant, is for current Ganondorf players, would THEY support this option.

Aside from that, please no more on the subject because it's getting borderline flamey. All that's needed to be said has been said, and now it's just going in circles. The only other discussion we should be seeing is either something completely profound, or Ganondorf players having their say.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

You're suggesting that they make 2 new characters, neither of which are actually the original Ganondorf moveset. How is that a solution to anything? And nobody gets pissed by the status quo, don't be absurd.

I get pissed when the status quo is a piece of S***

Okay is never good enough, especially when people are getting rich off my money (this statement is toward Sakurai not the PMBR)
Furthermore, I don't EXPECT the PMBR to make these changes we're arguing about, I just have hope that they're THAT awesome.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

And I disagree. Ganon has always been the ineffective, baby clone to Captain Falcon's superior moveset, takes an already situational B-Moveset and makes it slower and gifts us the hilarity of up-tilt, Ganondorf hugging his opponent and Ganondorf pulling off an extremely heroic Rider Kick of Justice.

It has never fit and has never been a good moveset. I still stand by making Ganon an alternate costume for Black Shadow ala Wario.




If the status quo wasn't ****, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.

The status quo isn't an issue, you're clinging to an argument that was settled years ago (also, this status quo is the only reason Captain Falcon is still around, as well as numerous other characters that "don't make sense"). There are still parts of Ganon's moveset that seem a just a little too heroic, I would agree, but that is a horrible excuse to scrap the entire character and add a dork like Black Shadow. Changing just an animation or two could fix this just fine.

Also, don't talk **** about Ganon's moveset and ability to be viable in Smash. Despite all the useless moves in the world, his power and horrifying ability to actually chain those moves together are undeniable, and 3.0 seems to be looking to expand this even further. Also, and I probably should have lead with this, that is not the point of this discussion.

God I cant stop lol. Hopefully this reply isn't as controversial..

I really don't see how hand to hand is a good representation of all his past forms... If you're telling me all his human forms, when melee came out the only human form was OOT.. so there was a very simple move set available there which did not involve punches and kicks besides the ground pound. If you're telling me ALL of his past forms, when Ganondorf was originally put into smash, there were 0 (zero) forms of him using hand to hand combat (again besides punching the ground). So this argument you're making just makes no sense to me.

Also I mentioned this but no one replied to it. What if they kept Ganon as he is in his TP form, and then using the clone engine add the OOT model of ganon with a new "proper" ganondorf move set?

While we're at it let's just add OoT Link, lol.

Anyway, at this point, my argument makes sense because of WW and TP, but at the time of Melee I will admit that stretching the magic fist of doom from the beginning of his boss battle into an entire moveset was probably a bad idea. Regardless, it makes enough sense now and is firmly established in Smash.

I don't play Black Shadow. I play Ganondorf.

Edit: Captain Falcon could literally be entirely changed in every Smash game with how little his moveset is based on F-Zero, but that would cause an uproar. The same could be said of Ness and Lucas (but more so for Ness), as well as many other characters. Changing a character fundamentally in the manner that you are suggesting, even with the excuse of "But Ganondorf is right there, get over it!" is just a laughable notion.

 

[Anti Guy]

Andy: Stop that. Andy's a general. He doesn't do any of the fighting. He's not out there on the field. Please see the following comic:

[collapse=This is the point I'm making about [I]Andy[/I]]

[/collapse]

Ever play Advance Wars: Days of Ruin? The COs become part of the units and fight in the field. Now this doesn't happen in the original Advance Wars games, but there are several quotes throughout the games hinting that the COs have been fighting on the field, literally. Obviously you don't have a "CO unit" out there with Andy running around, but it's implied that they're there.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Anyway, at this point, my argument makes sense because of WW and TP, but at the time of Melee I will admit that stretching the magic fist of doom from the beginning of his boss battle into an entire moveset was probably a bad idea. Regardless, it makes enough sense now and is firmly established in Smash.

I don't play Black Shadow. I play Ganondorf.

This is the problem. Sakurai gave Ganondorf this stupid clone move set and in the following games that he showed up in, the developers decided to make him fight more like he does in smash bros to justify smash bros make people say.. ohhh ok ya look it makes sense!!! And apparently it worked for a handful of people. Doing this backs up Sakurais stupid decision and in turn he feels good about it and keeps the clone moves.

Anyway now I'm off topic.

The end.

Edit: i dont know if you missed this msg again.. but what do u think of keeping TP ganon as is and then bringing OOT ganon in as a clone engine character?

 

[Fortress]

By Sakurai, man, that font formatting is as hard as all Hell to read.

K but small characters in smash bros are always resized.. (pikachu, olimar)

Pikachu is as fat as sin in the anime and manga, I have no clue what you're talking about. Of course, I was all against using references from outside of the actual games, so I'll let you know when I'm done putting my foot in my mouth. As for Olimar... it's Olimar, man.

I see what you're saying with me being inconsistent in accuracy, but Ray isn't as iconic as Ganondorf, so if his moves werent 100% accurate that wouldn't be as awful.

Ray's about as iconic as you're going to get in regards to the Custom Robo series. He's on most of the covers, featured in a lot of the artwork, and is considered to be your 'main' robo. Ganondorf doesn't get much screen time himself. Just look at Twilight Princess. The guy doesn't even show up until halfway through the game, and he's the one pulling all of the strings. Just because a character is 'iconic' doesn't mean that he's so sacred that people need to throw fanboy fits when he's not one-hundred-percent like he is in his home series.

The reason I tore you apart in regards to Ray isn't a matter of how iconic he is, its a matter of doing things that make sense for him; exactly what you're whining about with G-man (even though a majority of people would strongly disagree with you).

I'd be fine with this too.. That works.

Did I forget to mention that Robo's can't move when firing their weapons? They simply slide in straight lines if already moving, or stand completely still? If you miss a seven-round burst in Smash Bros, there's some huge room for punishment. Plus, the things are depicted within the game itself as being extremely weak.

Okay, but in game as you have illustrated, it is I'm sure a good way to approach and attack, so it could easily work as a move in a smash game. Maybe it could be his dash attack rather than his side b though.

It's much more than "well, in the game, you could...". The point I'm driving across is that Custom Robos rely on projectiles, with nearly all of their abilities revolving around firearms. They don't punch, kick, or anything. Just tackle. I don't understand why you're up for tearing Ganondorf down, but wanting to make a Robo that does not perform how it is supposed to.

Okay fine, but that opening sequence I posted makes it look so cool and perfect for smash bros.

"Ohmigosh it looks sooooo nifty and sparkly and we just have to do it" is not a good argument. It's a tackle. It's one attack. That doesn't make a would-be character 'perfect' by any stretch of the word. Something like this would make it more viable:

Robo uses dashing attack to tackle, doing some damage and knocking opponent forward and upward. Robo player DACUSes below player, using up smash (which would probably be the Umbrella Pod, seeing as those explode directly above the robo, making the most sense of any pod in the entire series), followed up by... well, nothing that comes to mind, since a Robo would have a very shallow move pool. Even though each individual robo sports a unique tackle, most of them are barely unique. There wouldn't be enough for a robo to draw from in terms of non-projectile attacks.

Still, if you're going to come up with a moveset, at least look into gameplay of the series and not the opening cinematic of one game in it. It's like the argument against your using that beta demonstration at Spaceworld for Ganondorf; it's not gameplay.

I'm sure an alternative move can be placed here. I was just trying to give an interesting move set, and say that samus has enough articles to edit. Ray doesn't have to have a million projectiles, 3 would suffice.

The point you're missing is that Robo's have only projectiles. Ray's simply not viable (nor any other robo, for that matter).

 

[l3thargy]

I use Ganon as my secondary character next only to link (usually switching between the two every match or so) and giving ganon his own non clone move-set would be great in my eyes, add in the ability to still play with his previous move-set in the form of someone more worthy of it is a good bonus (and again I'd just like to point out you could always switch black shadows model back to ganon, then you'll still have falcondorf, just don't play with the new ganon moveset if you don't like it, you don't see me complaining about a character such as pichu gettting in, if he gets in he gets in I just won't play as that character is all)

 

[Fortress]

Ever play Advance Wars: Days of Ruin? The COs become part of the units and fight in the field. Now this doesn't happen in the original Advance Wars games, but there are several quotes throughout the games hinting that the COs have been fighting on the field, literally. Obviously you don't have a "CO unit" out there with Andy running around, but it's implied that they're there.

Maybe I just don't like Andy, I don't know. I never played any of the DS ones, so I had no idea that what you're saying is something that happened (which is pretty cool), so why not just put one of them in instead of Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnndyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

Damnit, Andy.

 

[red9rd]

So that Groose