New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[ChronoBound]

I'm not saying your observations are necessarily incorrect, just the way you present your observations. You present them in such an absolute way, without acknowledging you can't speak for everyone. Also I would argue that the Sonic series is one of the biggest of all time,.

I am speaking at least for what went on in this thread, and what goes on among those who ask for character requests for Smash 4.

As for Sonic being among the biggest franchises of all time. That does not matter one bit, because its a third-party franchise. Metal Gear Solid is a similarly popular franchise (though it has more accolades than sales, whereas with the Sonic series its the inverse), yet there is not this mentality that an additional character is necessary that I have seen among several Sonic fans in this thread.

Secondly, I don't think that little stat box means much. Shadow supporters tried to bring that up before, but the fact is that he is probably the most divisive Sonic character of them all (he is the Sonic character with the most hate votes). Even among long-time Sonic fans who would actually like to see an additional Sonic there are plenty who hate the character.

Keep in mind the Sonic fanbase is an extremely divided one in general. There are many that love the 2D Genesis series yet consider the 3D ones trash. Those who think the first 3D game was good, but SA2 was where it became crap, those who think SA2 was the last good one but the later ones were crap, etc. These factions extend to characters as well (those hating all the characters introduced with the 3D games, those who hate characters introduced after SA1, those who hate characters introduced after SA2, etc.).

This is ultimately politics and craziness that should not be indulged in. The fact that additional Sonic characters in general look to be a very unpopular idea, and that the Smash Bros. fanbase is very conservative in regards to additional third-party characters (even Pac-Man struggles to get within the Top 10 most wanted characters), makes this road an easy one to not walk down.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Word choice can be a ***** sometimes..........

 

[ChronoBound]

You speak for yourself and no one else.

I speak for observations. This is what speculators do. Its a foreign concept to you, because you are not involved in the speculation aspect of the fanbase. However, the insults you are levying towards me would seem foreign in the Smash 4 discussion area to this site.

The statements I say don't come from a vacuum. They are observations on wholes.

 

[DrinkingFood]

got some top tier speculation going on here
chronobound $5 MM no items speculation only

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Personally, I think it might help to view this thread primarily as a means to discuss who we think should -->be considered by the PMBR<--, not who should be outright included in the game. Ideally, this would mean that no one resorts to "I think character x is a better choice, thus all consideration for character y is invalidated" in discussion.

The warring fanbases will always disagree about the top 5 choices, and there will undoubtedly be bias, but in reality we have no direct say in what the best 5 choices will be, or even if there will be 5 top choices. Pointing out problems is fine; mostly it seems people are taking offense when someone else disqualifies their idea, not because of the criticism.

This should not be a popularity contest, it should be a means of gauging which characters the community would support (not simply support the most), and from there the actual designers will consider characters from a designer's standpoint. If a character adds the most fun to the game, then relative popularity and representation become far less important, in my opinion. There are so many good ideas, and its a shame not all of them will fit or are implementable into the official PM scene, but if the game is improved by a new character than I could hardly see myself complaining about it being the wrong one, I guess.

As for masked man, he would only work if there is popular demand, the PMBR said yeah sure, but from what i hear he sounds like a pain to make just as much as ridley, because of the jetpack the many articles... things like that.

I had hoped that a benefit to Masked Man would actually be reduced workload, honestly. Hopefully my assumptions are correct, but I guess articles might be troublesome if he used too many of them.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

I had hoped that a benefit to Masked Man would actually be reduced workload, honestly. Hopefully my assumptions are correct, but I guess articles might be troublesome if he used too many of them.

I personally don't see the issue with articles for Masked Man. Unless they are going for vastly unique specials, or if Ness and Lucas have technical restraints with their articles, it seems like Masked man has a lot to choose from.

As for that bit about the jetpack, I don't see how that would be an issue either. They were able to give Mewtwo a glide while basing him off of Lucario (who has no glide), and I'd imagine a jetpack would function similarly. I guess there could be issues with getting vfx for the jetpack, but other than that, I don't see any major issues.

However, I also probably have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about, and I could use some clarity from someone who does.

 

[ChronoBound]

The warring fanbases will always disagree about the top 5 choices, and there will undoubtedly be bias, but in reality we have no direct say in what the best 5 choices will be, or even if there will be 5 top choices. Pointing out problems is fine; mostly it seems people are taking offense when someone else disqualifies their idea, not because of the criticism.

This should not be a popularity contest, it should be a means of gauging which characters the community would support (not simply support the most), and from there the actual designers will consider characters from a designer's standpoint. If a character adds the most fun to the game, then relative popularity and representation become far less important, in my opinion. There are so many good ideas, and its a shame not all of them will fit or are implementable into the official PM scene, but if the game is improved by a new character than I could hardly see myself complaining about it being the wrong one, I guess.
.

I have looked at things through that perspective.

Namely:
1. What would please the most people.
2. Be very feasible.
3. Would add something new to the game or Smash Bros. as a whole.

I did a big write-up on that a while back.

For example, I am personally not a fan of Isaac, Lyn, or even Sami (I mean not a fan in the sense that they are not characters that I personally like), yet I support their inclusion in Project M since they give off very high parameters for the three factors mentioned above.

For a character like Ridley, that I do support, I have stated that he would be tricky (though still an all round good choice), and that honestly he should be the last character tackled, and that I am personally pessimistic about him getting in Project M (his chances for Project M basically hinge upon whether he gets into Smash 4, in my opinion).

For a character like Sami, I even offered up additional choices that could fill in for another potential Marth/Roy (like Lip). I even commended the choice for Tom Nook, that although he is not obscure in the sense Marth/Roy was, that he would essentially be like Pokemon Trainer was (namely a well-known and well-liked character that is not popularly requested, yet would be instantly recognizable and well-received). Between the three of a new franchise representation (Advance Wars: Sami, Panel de Pon: Lip, Animal Crossing: Tom Nook), I go with Sami due to ease of development in comparison to the other two, though if development time and resources is not an obtacle, all three are equally good choices a new franchise representative.

 

[_Liquid_]

As for Sonic being among the biggest franchises of all time. That does not matter one bit, because its a third-party franchise.

"the Smash Bros. fanbase is very conservative in regards to additional third-party characters"

There's your bias again. There is no imaginary stigma against 3rd party characters, that gives them a disadvantage over any 1st party character. All the PMBR has specified for clone characters is that they:

1. Are licensed and appear in Brawl in some form.
2. Are requested by the community.

Both Knuckles and Shadow meet these two characteristics, especially on the popularity front. YOU have the thought in your head that "It's a Nintendo All-Star game, therefore no more 3rd party characters should be added" and it's also what you state as "the community's opinion" with nothing to back it up.

Secondly, I don't think that little stat box means much. Shadow supporters tried to bring that up before, but the fact is that he is probably the most divisive Sonic character of them all

I will give you that Shadow is a divisive character, however the sheer amount of downloads says A LOT about the popularity of the series and how many smashers want to play as Shadow. Also if you've spent as much time on brawlvault as I have, you know that the rest of the site is like that too. Countless sonic character PSAs over every character.

 

[ChronoBound]

There's your bias again.

Its absolutely not my bias. Please read this thread when you have the time. Please look at how many, many posts have Sonic characters in there downvote section. Please ask the Smash 4 discussion section of this site how they feel about additional Sonic characters. Please look at polls in general for Smash Bros. newcomers that show that third-party newcomers (aside from maybe Pac-Man) are not something a large portion of the fanbase are interested in.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

I speak for observations. This is what speculators do. Its a foreign concept to you, because you are not involved in the speculation aspect of the fanbase. However, the insults you are levying towards me would seem foreign in the Smash 4 discussion area to this site.

The statements I say don't come from a vacuum. They are observations on wholes.

I was rude earlier, and I'm sorry for that, but I'm not trying to insult you. I'm trying to talk sense into you.

None of us should speak for others, which is generally what your "observations on wholes" are, in reality. We all can only speak for ourselves. This isn't specific to you or anyone else here. That's a fact of life.

It's unfortunate that this is snowballing, you've made some solid points thus far in this thread and that shouldn't be ignored just because I, and a few other people apparently, disagree with the way you go about backing up your arguments.


So then, new topic. Masked Man sounds neat. I've never played any of the Mother games, but he seems like an interesting choice. All of the moveset ideas sound really cool too.

Edit: To those pointing out bias against Sonic, or whatever. Let's not pretend that Sonic characters are incredibly popular in this poll. Maybe ChronoBound is being biased, I don't know, but it is a fact that several people have voted against their inclusion in this thread. I am also willing to believe that many people are also in support of their inclusion, but this thread doesn't display enough of the population's opinions to make any definite assertions. Many people want Nintendo characters before third-party characters, many don't care. Get over it and, I don't know, explain why third-party shouldn't be a factor. Don't just shout "bias!" That doesn't get us anywhere.

 

[ChronoBound]

I was rude earlier, and I'm sorry for that, but I'm not trying to insult you. I'm trying to talk sense into you.

None of us should speak for others, which is generally what your "observations on wholes" are, in reality. We all can only speak for ourselves. This isn't specific to you or anyone else here. That's a fact of life.

It's unfortunate that this is snowballing, you've made some solid points thus far in this thread and that shouldn't be ignored just because I, and a few other people apparently, disagree with the way you go about backing up your arguments.

I accept your apology.

However, my arguments do have a legitimate and sound basis. The kind of arguments I use are used all the time amongst the speculation and character support aspect of the Smash Bros. fanbase. This is not something uniquely applicable to myself.

Please look into the Smash 4 section of this site if you have the time. You will find a lot of what I am saying to be the case.

 

[red9rd]

 

[Grey Belnades]

Damn. Some of you are salty as hell.

 

[_Liquid_]

Its absolutely not my bias. Please read this thread when you have the time. Please look at how many, many posts have Sonic characters in there downvote section. Please ask the Smash 4 discussion section of this site how they feel about additional Sonic characters. Please look at polls in general for Smash Bros. newcomers that show that third-party newcomers (aside from maybe Pac-Man) are not something a large portion of the fanbase are interested in.

This is silly. I am in no way arguing that Sonic characters are going to appear, I just think you understate how popular these characters are and how many Sonic fans play Smash. Yes they have their share of haters, but so does every character. Both the haters and lovers of Sonic characters are very vocal, that doesn't say anything about the amount of people who would like or dislike the decision.

All I've been trying to get at is, I and a number of other users have pointed out your bias you fail to acknowledge. The biggest issue I've had with your posts is that you continue to speak for the community as a whole. At the end of the day, only the PMBR decides who will make it into PM, and both popularity and hate for a given character are subjective.

I have nothing more to say about this discussion.

I was rude earlier, and I'm sorry for that, but I'm not trying to insult you. I'm trying to talk sense into you.

None of us should speak for others, which is generally what your "observations on wholes" are, in reality. We all can only speak for ourselves. This isn't specific to you or anyone else here. That's a fact of life.

It's unfortunate that this is snowballing, you've made some solid points thus far in this thread and that shouldn't be ignored just because I, and a few other people apparently, disagree with the way you go about backing up your arguments.


So then, new topic. Masked Man sounds neat. I've never played any of the Mother games, but he seems like an interesting choice. All of the moveset ideas sound really cool too.

Edit: To those pointing out bias against Sonic, or whatever. Let's not pretend that Sonic characters are incredibly popular in this poll. Maybe ChronoBound is being biased, I don't know, but it is a fact that several people have voted against their inclusion in this thread. I am also willing to believe that many people are also in support of their inclusion, but this thread doesn't display enough of the population's opinions to make any definite assertions. Many people want Nintendo characters before third-party characters, many don't care, get over it.

I would love to see Masked Man appear in PM. The PMBR could do a lot with his moveset, but I don't know if he has enough popularity to be seriously considered, since Mother 3 still has never been officially released in the US.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

I would love to see Masked Man appear in PM. The PMBR could do a lot with his moveset, but I don't know if he has enough popularity to be seriously considered, since Mother 3 still has never been officially released in the US.

The sad, oh so sad truuph

 

[trojanpooh]

Keep the dogpiling coming.

I think you are mad at me for my statements about Pichu being unpopular outside the competitive set?

As I stated before, make a poll asking people who their least favorite character was to ever enter Smash Bros. as a playable character, and I can guarantee you Pichu will be within the Top 3.

I have said that I am personally neutral on Pichu getting into Project M, however, you are personally angry with me for stating the obvious.

Why is it that every time I disagree with you you bring up Pichu again? I'm not talking about Pichu, I'm talking about your method of speculation and prediction. It's literally identical to the crazies on Gamefaqs right down to the faux data. Not like there's anything wrong with that, but when you try so hard to defend it as solid logic to anyone who thinks otherwise it gets pretty tired pretty fast.

 

[red9rd]

Bees

BEES

 

[DrinkingFood]

[WHY-CAN'T-I-JUST-DELETE-POSTS REDACTED]

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

I would love to see Masked Man appear in PM. The PMBR could do a lot with his moveset, but I don't know if he has enough popularity to be seriously considered.

He seems to be picking up some traction here, but he definitely wouldn't be as recognizable as some of the other characters available for the clone engine.

Whatever, I wouldn't mind seeing him in the game. I could see him being added.

Bees

BEES

Stop that. Stop that now.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Bees

BEES

I've been seeing that a lot. Is that like a code word for when a thread may potentially be locked for going off topic?
If that's the case, I'd like to bring up a previously mentioned character.

Spoiler

Such potential

 

[Solbliminal]

Its absolutely not my bias. Please read this thread when you have the time. Please look at how many, many posts have Sonic characters in there downvote section. Please ask the Smash 4 discussion section of this site how they feel about additional Sonic characters. Please look at polls in general for Smash Bros. newcomers that show that third-party newcomers (aside from maybe Pac-Man) are not something a large portion of the fanbase are interested in.

Chrono, let me note that I do not have a grudge because of a measly character slot. It is because of your inflated sense of authority. I do have respect for you, but you by no means are the voice of the community. The one argument you provide that staggers any argument thus far is the fact this thread and these forums show disinterest in 3rd party, or for that matter Sonic, characters. But that is the only argument that keeps you armed. I generally believe your opinion would be much different on the other side of the glass if Ridley was losing. So isn't it fair that I should be allowed to voice my opinion without the criticism? If not then that is where we will continue to disagree.

To justify my Shadow vs Ridley statements, one bad game shouldn't be the bane of a characters popularity. If that were the case, Other M would have slaughtered Ridley's chances.

 

[ChronoBound]

Considering its basically the same circle of people complaining about me (usually character driven beefs to begin with), I am not going to engage in this conversation anymore.

 

[ChronoBound]

To justify my Shadow vs Ridley statements, one bad game shouldn't be the bane of a characters popularity. If that were the case, Other M would have slaughtered Ridley's chances.

Other M is an 8/10 game according to Gameranking and Metacritic. A far cry from stuff like Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic 2006.

The reason why people are harsh on Other M because its bad within the context of the Metroid series as a whole and various story and characterization issues.

 

[DrinkingFood]

[TRIPLY REDACTED IN REVERSE ORDER]

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Such potential


Edit: Guh, HOW DO SPOILS!?

[.collapse] [./collapse]

But without the "."

I know I was mostly joking before, but I honestly like Big the Cat. I don't get why he gets so much hate in the Sonic community.

He could have an awesome moveset too, what with the fishing pole and whatnot. Unfortunately, he's probably not even worth discussing given his whole, "lack of popularity" thing.

 

[red9rd]

Spoiler

I've been seeing that a lot. Is that like a code word for when a thread may potentially be locked for going off topic?
If that's the case, I'd like to bring up a previously mentioned character.

Spoiler

View attachment 4100

Such potential

Edit: Guh, HOW DO SPOILS!?

Use

[collapse]

edit: damn it I was beat to it.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Other M is an 8/10 game according to Gameranking and Metacritic. A far cry from stuff like Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic 2006.

The reason why people are harsh on Other M because its bad within the context of the Metroid series as a whole and various story and characterization issues.

I don't know if this is the point you're trying to make, but the quality of recent games in the series shouldn't be a factor in choosing characters.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

stuff

things

Spoiler

Thanks guys, I needed that

 

[ChronoBound]

I don't know if this is the point you're trying to make, but the quality of recent games in the series shouldn't be a factor in choosing characters.

.

I never used that as a point against Shadow, but I merely said that is one of the reasons why people bash him (there are many who think the character epitomizes the series's decline).

 

[PsionicSabreur]

I would love to see Masked Man appear in PM. The PMBR could do a lot with his moveset, but I don't know if he has enough popularity to be seriously considered, since Mother 3 still has never been officially released in the US.

Popularity, while a legitimate concern, is somewhat of an interesting thing to mention here. Think about Roy in Melee, for example. Few people outside of Japan had a clue who he was. But he had a sword(!), and it caught things on fire(!!). I would hazard a guess that most players unfamiliar with the Masked Man would be more likely to be impressed/intrigued by his design, and not be immediately repulsed due to non-recognition. Popularity is great, but a strict utilitarian approach to popularity is needlessly restrictive.

Tell me right now that you'd look at a similar unfamiliar character and say "What's this, an electric-sword-weilding PSI-borg with an arm cannon in -MY- fighting game? Unacceptable!"

It may be a real concern, but the only way to mitigate that is to support his inclusion, and hope more people join in, right?

Joke's probably been made already, but Big the Cat would be a virtually unwinnable matchup for Ganondorf, no?

 

[ChronoBound]

Popularity, while a legitimate concern, is somewhat of an interesting thing to mention here. Think about Roy in Melee, for example. Few people outside of Japan had a clue who he was. But he had a sword(!), and it caught things on fire(!!). I would hazard a guess that most players unfamiliar with the Masked Man would be more likely to be impressed/intrigued by his design, and not be immediately repulsed due to non-recognition. Popularity is great, but a strict utilitarian approach to popularity is needlessly restrictive.

I brought this up in a massive essay. Though I was talking more about a potential character to rep an entire long-running franchise not yet represented in Smash Bros.:
http://smashboards.com/threads/clon...-results-updated.341479/page-18#post-15944487

However, I also have said Tom Nook would also fit in for this well, though he is definitely far from obscure. He is more akin to Pokemon Trainer.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Popularity, while a legitimate concern, is somewhat of an interesting thing to mention here. Think about Roy in Melee, for example. Few people outside of Japan had a clue who he was. But he had a sword(!), and it caught things on fire(!!). I would hazard a guess that most players unfamiliar with the Masked Man would be more likely to be impressed/intrigued by his design, and not be immediately repulsed due to non-recognition. Popularity is great, but a strict utilitarian approach to popularity is needlessly restrictive.

Tell me right now that you'd look at a similar unfamiliar character and say "What's this, an electric-sword-weilding PSI-borg with an arm cannon in -MY- fighting game? Unacceptable!"

It may be a real concern, but the only way to mitigate that is to support his inclusion, and hope more people join in, right?

Joke's probably been made already, but Big the Cat would be a virtually unwinnable matchup for Ganondorf, no?

It's not really the fact that he's unpopular itself. It's that other characters may have priority over him because of his lack of popularity in the PMBR's eyes.

 

[red9rd]

I think the reason Big the cat gets so much hate is because the Sonic games are about speed (Got to go fast) and Big just kicks back to fish.



It's been three days, but it feels like Ive gone over a week without the social thread.

 

[Solbliminal]

I never used that as a point against Shadow, but I merely said that is one of the reasons why people bash him (there are many who think the character epitomizes the series's decline).

I was never comparing scores. I was implying that a negative game shouldn't be the only core reason a character is disliked. You even admit that Other M was atrocious and implied it shouldn't be spoke of. I say the same about Shadow's game. Shadow was actually a very positively received character in Sonic Battle, Heroes, and even in 06 regardless of the games flop. You only speak from a portion of the Sonic fanbase. There are just as many fans, if not more, of Shadow than there are haters.

 

[ChronoBound]

It's not really the fact that he's unpopular itself. It's that other characters may have priority over him because of his lack of popularity in the PMBR's eyes.

I think there are more issues than a lack of popularity. I have brought up a lack of popularity for other "unconventional" choices within this thread like Sami and Tom Nook.

Basically, the bigger issues surrounding the character aside from obscurity and potentially over-repping Mother (as many characters as games): are potentially work load (character made from the ground up and non-clone with different moves and animations), what the character could bring as a whole, diversity in comparison to other choices already selected (the team has been cryptic about whether they already selected some characters).

For example, in the essay linked above, in principle, Lip is Sami's equal. Both characters would be well-received obscure Nintendo characters that happen to represent very long-running Nintendo franchises (much like Marth and Roy did, though as mentioned, Marth was never obscure on the Japanese side of things). What made Lip fall short of Sami in my analysis, is the potential work load required for the character (totally unique) as opposed to a relatively easy Snake clone.

I think even comparing a character like Tom Nook (another unconventional choice) to Masked Man, he has a few things in regards to the design to the character that may make development relatively easier, such as being silent and not needing a voice, and being a character who has a very simplistic model and hails from a series where extra detail is not necessary (just look at how simple Villager's model is in Smash 4). Walking and running animations also would be relatively simple (again due to the simplicity of the character's design).

Difficulty of development is such a big factor it will likely be what keeps Ridley out despite the large amount of requests he has.

So I don't think its obscurity or "lack of popularity" that would keep Masked Man out so much as that relative to the amount of demand the character has, he would be time consuming and may not bring as much depending on what characters are going to be added in (I previously brought up the example of "too many swords").

To be fair, I think outside of Lyn, Isaac, and Dixie Kong, there are no other "super popular" characters for them to add. There is basically just Ridley aside from those three, but as a I said his difficulty may make him a non-starter, and I think the team is only going to consider adding him in if Sakurai de-confirms him for Smash 4.

This leaves 1-2 spots for unconventional character choices.

I definitely think that one of the spots will be a more unconventional character choice, and there are a slew of well-received ideas for one with one that have a cadre of fans (Sami, Lip, Sukapon, Tom Nook, Masked Man, and possibly Saki). Personally, for an unconventional character choice, I would like to see a new franchise repped (whether it be Animal Crossing, Advance Wars, or Panel de Pon). I think such characters would not only offer new gameplay diversity (even in the example of Snake-clone Sami), but would give more people exposure to a Nintendo universe not yet explored in Smash Bros. (though that might not be apt in the example of Tom Nook, since Animal Crossing is among Nintendo's most well known franchises).

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

I think even comparing a character like Tom Nook (another unconventional choice) to Masked Man, he has a few things in regards to the design to the character that may make development relatively easier, such as being silent and not needing a voice.

A lot of people have brought up that the Masked Man is mysterious and quiet, so they wouldn't really need a lot voices for him, if any. Some people have even suggested that him being silent will keep him a little more spoiler free, and while I think spoilers for Mother 3 aren't a big deal, it's still a valid point.

However, I agree with pretty much everything else you brought up. While he does have access to copious amounts of articles that may or may not be modifiable, that doesn't really help mitigate how much time and effort would be needed to make him as exciting as I'd want him to be. Without much to draw inspiration from, they'd need to make a lot of sophisticated animations strictly off of imagination.

While I don't really care for the representation argument, the clone engine does provide an opportunity for new franchises that won't be in smash 4 they're only chance in one of the greatest fighting games of all time.

 

[ChronoBound]

While I don't really care for the representation argument, the clone engine does provide an opportunity for new franchises that won't be in smash 4 they're only chance in one of the greatest fighting games of all time.

That is part of the reason why I brought up Famicom/Advance Wars and Panel de Pon in particular.

The Lip brigade has yet to show up in this thread, but I can tell you she has had a dedicated fanbase for a very long time (since even pre-Melee). There is an extremely close knit community of Lip supporters in the Smash 4 section of this site that has a multitude of interesting takes on the character (I linked to the thread in the analysis where I talked about the Marth/Roy Principle).

And keep in mind just a few pages back, everyone was on the Tom Nook wagon, and Sukpon of course comes up quite a bit (people were talking about him enthusiastically earlier in this thread as Masked Man supporters are now).

Right now people seem to be on a Masked Man high. However, as I said, this is an incredibly complicated context and there is a multitude of parameters that I think should be looked at when looking into a more unconventional character choice (talking about the pool of Sami, Tom Nook, Lip, Sukapon, Masked Man, Saki). I am sure another idea for an unconventional choice is going to eventually crop up later in this thread and be popularly received (maybe Ray from Custom Robo).

However, particularly, my sympathies lie with the series fanbases that may never get a playable character of their franchise in Smash Bros. Things like Advance Wars, Panel de Pon, Starfy, and Custom Robo basically.

 

[DrinkingFood]

[REDACTED FOR LORD HYLIAN]

 

[Friesnchip]

basicly*

No...?

 

[DrinkingFood]

[DOUBLY REDACTED]