Wiseguy, Wiseguy, Wiseguy. Here you are defending Miis and yet your recent devotion to the Olimar thread has been unheard of! For shame! At least it's nice to know I've got someone to argue with again ^^.
Looking back on my comments, it seems to me that I pretty much flamed you, Vali. I apologize, I just got really into the argument for some reason and got carried away...
I agree that I really should post on the Olimar thread more often, but to be honest it's the sort of thread that has difficulty holding my attention. Like the Ridley and Diddy Kong thread, Olimar's character thread has little actual debate since no sane individual would question his worthiness in Brawl. Conversely, the idea of Mii sharply divides people, so see some interesting debates (like this one.)
Regardless, I will attempt to make a point of visiting (and bumping, if necessary) the Olimar thread. Olimar is THE coolest potential newcomer, and he deserves better.
Actually, like I originally put, I think that the word "Avatar" is much more suitable for Miis and I still stand by that avatars have no real place in Smash Bros. An avatar can be considered a character, for sure, but I would say that the fact that they can be anyone does take away from my wanting them to be in Brawl. The entire fact that there is no single Mii is completely different from the example of a Pokemon like Pichu because all Pichus are the same in appearance, in the moves that they have and learn, in the fact they evolve into Pikachu, the only quibble is with that many Pokemon need to be justified by personality. However every Mii is different like how every human is different and yet belongs to the same race which is not true of the Pokemon world. Comparing the Mii and Pokemon just isn't valid really, and also the fact that any Pokemon that are like Pichu (no singluar one) are pretty much outdated from the roster now except for special circumstances like the PT. It is rather ironic that in your comparison of Pichu and Mii you seemed to have chosen the one character on the entire Melee roster that no-one wants returning and no-one knows why the hell it was put on in the first place. Food for thought.
True enough. Pokemon are a slightly different issue, and Pichu isn't the ideal example - but the fact remains that Pichu (as well as Pikachu and Jiglypuff if you don't count the anime') were included as playable characters even though they aren't individuals in the same way that Mario and Link are. While this isn't conclusive, it does show that Sakurai is not against the idea of including a generic character if the situation warrents their inclusion.
However, you you seem to agree that an avitar can still qualify as a videogame character - which was my main argument.
Game and Watch may have no character development or distinct personality, but that is merely because his games never called for one. He is still Game and Watch, he is still a distinct character and he is not like a Mii in that he isn't just an avatar. Game and Watch is the same in every game and yet, every Mii is different.
Wii Sports doesn't really call for character development either. My point being that character development is not a prerequisite to being a character in Smash Bros.
Well...he isn't a character. Or at least not a real one. Whereas he does have a defined shape/height/weight and no personality, I would go as far as to say that he is merely just a non-customisable avatar for the player. Yet on his own, I doubt he would've got into the Brawl roster as I believe his addition is justified by spectating and commanding the 3 Pokemon which are included with him. The PT never fights and he's not really his own character and so putting him as a character in a fighting game by himself would be foolish. But to include him not fighting, not playing as such, but commanding the established and loved original starting Pokemon? Genius.
In most games (such as Wii Sports) Miis have a set height and weight as well. Only their facial features is customizable.
And yes, Pokemon Trainer is utter brilliance. I'm excited about this character, and I don't even like Pokemon!
You're using real as in the sense of existing, and yet real can also be ascribed to something to determine how much like the thing something is trying to be really is. Like a footballer that stands on the pitch and never once touches a football, is he really a footballer? He's in a football team, on the pitch during a match but that is the extent that he is a footballer. You could argue that he is one, you could argue that he's not a real footballer, not really. He's technically playing football, but only just (if you argue this point, imagine a goalie that doesn't have to save a shot all match/ball never goes in their half, he's still playing football but he just doesn't have to do anything). Miis I would categorise in the same way that they aren't really videogame characters, not in the way that Link is (another character that is in some way an avatar). I'm also not questioning the fact that they clearly are a videogame character in that they are "characters" in videogames, it would be stupid to say that they do not qualify under the literal definition. However to say that they are videogame characters in the same way as the legends of videogaming and should be included in Brawl is a leap of the imagination.
I see what your getting at, but if you look at characters like Link and Mario - they started out as very crude, simple character designs with little personality. It was the incredible gameplay in their games that set them apart, not Link's unforgettable personality.
I would never ague that Mii is ultimate character that every other game character should aspire to be, but they do have a destinct, simple and quirky personality in their own right. Just becuase they race cows and play tennis instead of jumping on Goombas doesn't make them benchwarmers to Mario's quarterback.
Of course, all characters (that have appeared on a Nintendo console) have a chance in that regard. However, I am here debating the worthiness of the Mii, as are you. Our opinions at the end of the day don't matter whatsoever, but it's always fun to argue.
You are right, of course. I guess that sounded pretty preachy.... sorry.
The examples you picked are rather silly, since I never said that all characters will be the same with the same art styles, maturity of graphics or only conventional, predictable characters will get in. However I beg to differ that Snake is not a Nintendo all-star since despite being 3rd party and his games now appearing on Sony machines. He is still playable on Nintendo consoles (Gamecube) and his origins were on Nintendo consoles such as the NES in the original games. He does not belong to Nintendo, but he is still (now more of a retro) star of the Nintendo platforms.
Technically, the original Metal Gear debuted on the MSX2, and was later ported to the NEs - but your point stands.
Yeah, I clearly exagerated, but my point was that Smash Bros isn't just for one type of gamer. It's a game that fans of Mario, Pokemon, Metroid, Metal Gear and everyone in between can enjoy. Saying that the millions of people who love Wii Sports don't count rubs me the wrong way, frankly.
However you did also manage to miss what I was trying to say entirely. I mean, entirely. What I was trying to point out there was that in the main franchise games such as Mario, Zelda, Metroid you never get to play as the badguys and never get to fight against the good guys. Smash Bros. is the place to turn all that on it's head and fight your beloved heroes as the villains. That is the purpose of Smash Brothers, since the selling appeal of the original was exactly that, fight with your favourite Nintendo characters against each other! Or not so favourite, in Pichu's case. >.>
Miis have no place in the main franchises to be honest, the party minigames yes but otherwise no. I would be angry if you could play through Super Mario Galaxy as your own Mii, because it'd be completely missing the point of Super Mario Galaxy. If you don't agree with that, then there is no hope for you my friend ^^.
Okay, I'll admit that Miis don't belong in EVERY videogame (Miis in Galaxy or Prime 3 would be pushing it) but if ever there was a game that Miis would be perfect for, Super Smash Bros is it. As you said, Smash Bros is about all our favorite Nintendo characters duking it out - and Mii qualifies. There are people who love Miis, as is made evident by the various websites devoted to them:
www.miiplaza.net .
This a game with characters ranging from Solid Snake to Pokmon Trainer. Clearly, Sakurai welcomes characters from every background.
The idea of a tank in Brawl isn't to my liking, but you cannot build a fully fleshed out unique and interesting moveset based on Cow Racing and Tanks. Creating a completely new moveset from scratch wouldn't make sense because surely the idea of including Miis was to pay homage to all the minigames Miis are in, making them famous through Wii Sports and Wii Play, in addition to allowing people to play as their own customisable Brawl character? That'd like be including Link and including none of his moves from the games, surely?
Combine Cow Racing and Tanks with Boxing and other sports and you do have the makings for a pretty unique moveset. As for unique moves, I was thinking more along the lines of simple punches and kicks.
My point being, it's surely conceivable that a cool moveset could be made for the character.
I'll never understand the appeal of wanting to play as a pop culture icon in Brawl.
Fine, but I can't see the appeal of Pokemon. That doesn't mean that I'm against their inclusion.
The problem that all of the characters aren't attempting to be something other than what they are. A Mii attempts to be everyone and everything and yet Samus is always going to be Samus and even the Pokemon Trainer only attempts to be the Pokemon Trainer. You can't have a generic Mii moveset, flat out across the board, that would fit all the personas of the Mii. Every PT uses Pokemon to fight, but *sigh* (I hate having to keep using this example) Chuck Norris doesn't fight in the same way that Jesus would. While it wouldn't be a problem for Miis concerning you, the appeal of fighting as a real life person or fictional character is lost when that character has a moveset that in no way correlates to how they'd actually fight.
I think you underestimate how easily the average person can be amused. When playing Wii Boxing, for example, it doesn't matter that every character fights the same. It's still hilarious to see Batman and Chewbacca squaring off.
If Miis are included and if their moveset is enjoyable to play as, having the ability to fight as your favorite Mii would be highly amusing to many people.
You are a real person. A Mii of you is trying to imitate that real thing, which is you. Putting Miis into Brawl would be allowing any real person to have a cartoony caricature look-a-like in the game. I would go so far as to say that a cartoony version of you is slightly more real than an entirely fictitious character. A Mii in some ways is you and in other, more obvious ways, isn't. If you argue against this point, then you're completely nullifying the appeal that having a Mii in Brawl is like playing as yourself.
Okay, I see your point. But honestly, that point doesn't really bother me, though I agree that others would be bothered by it. I suppose it really depends on which group Sakurai falls into.
However, I doubt the prospect of being able to play as themselves would so much attract the casual gamer since it's the type of game that attracts people, not merely being able to play as themselves. I wouldn't buy a pony focused minigame compilation because it had Solid Snake in it, because whatever way you to try to dress it up in some hardcore appeal it's still an incredibly lackluster casual game.
Looking forward to the next wall of pain ^^;.
The beauty of Smash Bros is that it is considered both an ultra-harcore fighting game and a casual party game. The sight of Mario and Mii on the cover might just be enough to dupe the millions of Mario Party 8 players into buying a truly great game. And if any game can turn a casual gamer into a full fledged Nintendo fan, it's Smash Bros.
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