[Nesu] It's so deserted here I could find Criminal Caterpillars. (Post here if you're cool)

[BluePSI]

Hi everyone! what's new in Ness land?

 

[ToferTheHuman]

Discussing Ness and if he is bad or good.

 

[Yink]

Yeah and we don't need this negativity.

But I did pay for my venue today, so now my tournament is ready to go!

 

[ToferTheHuman]

Yay!
I hope Brainshock goes well Yink!

 

[BluePSI]

Oh I see
even if he isn't good in the eyes of others, I shall use him anyway :D

 

[milesg2g]

When I say Gimmicks, I'm speaking of OoS people that don't have a Ness in their region lol. That's where he seems to really come in handy it seems. I don't doubt he doesn't only rely on gimmicks, but he has huge limits. Aside from WGF (A perfect example of a gimmick result because WC doesn't know MU's) and MLG what has Ness been doing recently in tourney's? Like locally and regionally? lol.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

So guys.

I've totally stopped playing Ness.

Getting gimped by Wings of Icarus -> Ledge drop double jump Wings of Icarus starts to wear on me after a while.

 

[milesg2g]

Defend yourself off the stage guy

 

[Z'zgashi]

But Ness is easy to stop. All you have to do is play gay and Ness can't do much. There's a ness in my area who consistently beats a lot of other players who I beat as well, but when I one or two stock these players he beats, the ness can rarely even take two stocks off of me. It seems to me that ness lacks a good pressure game, range, and has no approach, so I can sit back and camp to my hearts content. When he does get it, his close up game lacks fast or mid range moves, so my tilts and pivots wreck him. Even my character's (yoshi) air game seems to full out shut him down due to my mobility and overall priority with air grabs and combo potential with bair. On the ground, my grabs are a lot easy to land then you think, and we have GR options on ness as well. Not to mention this MU is only even.

Really, it just seems that ness is overall just not solid enough. He relies far too heavily on reads and mistakes on the other players side to actually make things happen, and IMO, this is the reason for his lack of consistency. Ness doesn't stand out in any way to me, he lacks speed, range, kill power, mix ups, and solid approaches, combos, and kill set ups.

 

[_clinton]

Like locally and regionally? lol.

Man, how many people claim to be professional with Ness anyway?

 

[ShadowRoamer]

Yeah, it's a shame, really. When you think about it most of Ness' useful ATs and combos seem to only happen when enemies leave gaping holes in their defense. Ness is just down in the ranks because his playstyle is just too strange to handle easily, what with his obvious approach, poorly reached moves and hellish ending lag for the moves that can actually be implemented for a KO, plus it's a struggle just to stay alive with gimping and whatnot. And those are just the basics
So yeah, Ness isn't really the most amazing character Brawl has to offer.

 

[Neon Ness]

He relies far too heavily on reads and mistakes on the other players side to actually make things happen

Meh, that's kind of the fun of fighting games though. Using reads and tactics to overcome your opponent. What else should he be relying on, and how would it be better than relying on reads...?

Ness doesn't stand out in any way to me, he lacks speed, range, kill power, mix ups, and solid approaches, combos, and kill set ups.

How do you define kill power though? He has moves that can kill, I mean dair kills at like 30% offstage if we want to split hairs. At what point does a character qualify as having kill power? Not sure what you mean here.

Do you mean inescapable combos? Those aren't a necessity to do well, I don't think... I dunno about that one. I feel like they were a bigger part of 64/Melee but the change in hitstun has shifted gameplay towards less of that.

I don't think mixups are really something characters "have". It's how the person with the controller makes the character unpredictable. So every character can have mixups. Maybe our definitions on all of this stuff is just different.

I'm just playing devil's advocate though. I don't think Ness is great or anything.

The question is though, why should we care if he's good or not as long as he turns up results?

 

[Chuee]

Ness is not even close to viable.
If you think he is you must have a twisted definition of viable.
Viable means the character can win a large tournament. Yes, every character can win, but however, many characters have a good chance, because of troublesome MUs with commonly played characters. Ness loses to practically every top tier character, and only goes even with a few high tiers, not to mention 2 of his hardest MUs are in that tier (marth and D3). Most of the notable accomplishments Ness has in bad MUs are from inexperience. Most of WC has a track record for losing to uncommon tourney characters. Most of top FL doesn't lose to Shaky anymore besides ESAM (already explained).

 

[Z'zgashi]

Meh, that's kind of the fun of fighting games though. Using reads and tactics to overcome your opponent. What else should he be relying on, and how would it be better than relying on reads...?

I agree, making reads is what this game is all about, but my point is that Ness lacks the tools to capitalize on these reads or punish well. His speed is below par, his moves dont come in at any blind spots, and his range on his moves, especially tilts is mediocre at best. Yoshi for example has great ground speed, the best air speed in the game, long ranged tilts, a fast jab with cancels, multiple grabs all of which with long range, a great projectile, and DR which allows us to use any move, even smash attacks, out of dash. We can punish a read or mistake far better than Ness ever could.

How do you define kill power though? He has moves that can kill, I mean dair kills at like 30% offstage if we want to split hairs. At what point does a character qualify as having kill power? Not sure what you mean here.

Dair isn't a kill, it's a gimp. If that were true, I could say yoshi has three different kills at 30%. He has fair, dair > footstool, and sourspot nair > footstool. In fact, egg lay can gimp offstage somewhat well as well. I define a kill move by how reliable and how well it can kill. For example, with yoshi (and sorry if I keep using him as an example, he's my most knowledgable character), his best kill moves are uair, usmash, and down b. Even though these are considered his kill moves, yoshi still has fsmash, which has far more knockback and damage output than the previously mentioned, and fair/dair which can kill at ANY damage with a good read offstage. I however don consider them as they are unreliable. They rely on my opponent making a huge mistake or me making an amazing read, while my normal kill moves don't depend on that much error.

Do you mean inescapable combos? Those aren't a necessity to do well, I don't think... I dunno about that one. I feel like they were a bigger part of 64/Melee but the change in hitstun has shifted gameplay towards less of that.

Not so much just combos as much as damage racking. Sure, you guys have PK Fire > grab/smash, but this isn't reliable at high damage and is dependent on your opponent being within range of the attack, which you all know doesn't reach near as far as many other projectiles and has startup and end lag. You also lack a way to create chip damage which can easily build up in camp happy matches, which ness seems to end up in a lot.

I don't think mixups are really something characters "have". It's how the person with the controller makes the character unpredictable. So every character can have mixups. Maybe our definitions on all of this stuff is just different.

Like I said earlier, you lack the moves and range to actually create mixups and punish mistakes. Just like with your 'Ness is like Game & Watch' example, Ness only has a few moves that actually can work in situations where match ups are needed. Problem is though, your moves aren't plain good like GWs are. GW can throw the same moves out all day and the opponent can't contend with the range, speed he has, but Ness is far too slow and has less reach then his better counterpart, so it really doesn't help the fact that his only option isnt great. It's not bad by any means, but when it's all you have, it gets far too predictable and easy to avoid.

I'm just playing devil's advocate though. I don't think Ness is great or anything.

The question is though, why should we care if he's good or not as long as he turns up results?

He has results? I've never seen a Ness make top 8 anywhere in a LONG time. Let alone top 16. Sure, Shaky pulled off 17th in MLG, but that is only one time. FOW placed high, but he didn't win with Ness in any important matches.

Frankly, I just don't see much from Ness as of now. Id love for someone to step it up, take names, and prove me wrong, cuz I actually like Ness. As of now however, I just don't see it. He hasn't shown any outstanding potential and just doesn't seem like a great character.

 

[milesg2g]

Ness is not even close to viable.
If you think he is you must have a twisted definition of viable.
Viable means the character can win a large tournament. Yes, every character can win, but however, many characters have a good chance, because of troublesome MUs with commonly played characters. Ness loses to practically every top tier character, and only goes even with a few high tiers, not to mention 2 of his hardest MUs are in that tier (marth and D3). Most of the notable accomplishments Ness has in bad MUs are from inexperience. Most of WC has a track record for losing to uncommon tourney characters. Most of top FL doesn't lose to Shaky anymore besides ESAM (already explained).

I can see what you mean in some cases, but "not even close to viable." is a bit much lol. This isn't Melee, in Melee there's an entire section negligible which includes Ness. That's not close to viable because they're just that bad lol. Ness on the other hand has a shot @ top 20 and if that's your goal then he's very viable. I think it's safe to say many people who play Ness aim for that because of their main. Same with Yoshi, Lucas, and other characters not as good. If you're a player and your aiming for something higher then second him like I have been doing. However, this game is fairly new still. Each year the metagame steps up and things are getting gayer. '10 was the year of punishes and follow ups. Everything was being abused in '10 because everything was pretty much known. As you can see Ness is slowly dropping in tourney attendance because punishes are being abused to the max in this game lol.

And to be quite honest, none of our Ness mains play gay enough. Shaky is by fair one of the best examples of how to use PKT, then comes ViceGrip. Those two know how to utilize the move, but they still don't play it nearly as gay as they could imo. Every other Ness is way to aggressive from what I've seen, and stuff like that just won't cut against a better player with a better character.

 

[Chuee]

I can see what you mean in some cases, but "not even close to viable." is a bit much lol. This isn't Melee, in Melee there's an entire section negligible which includes Ness. That's not close to viable because they're just that bad lol. Ness on the other hand has a shot @ top 20 and if that's your goal then he's very viable. I think it's safe to say many people who play Ness aim for that because of their main. Same with Yoshi, Lucas, and other characters not as good. If you're a player and your aiming for something higher then second him like I have been doing. However, this game is fairly new still. Each year the metagame steps up and things are getting gayer. '10 was the year of punishes and follow ups. Everything was being abused in '10 because everything was pretty much known. As you can see Ness is slowly dropping in tourney attendance because punishes are being abused to the max in this game lol.

And to be quite honest, none of our Ness mains play gay enough. Shaky is by fair one of the best examples of how to use PKT, then comes ViceGrip. Those two know how to utilize the move, but they still don't play it nearly as gay as they could imo. Every other Ness is way to aggressive from what I've seen, and stuff like that just won't cut against a better player with a better character.

That's not viable.
Getting top 20 is something just about every character can do. Though I consider only maybe 10-15 characters truly viable.
You mention playing gay and then follow up by mentioning PKT.
huh

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yoshi is viable. Polt actually took 1st in a Florida tournament a while back. Just watch his vids. Even when he loses, it goes down to the wire. Yoshi actually occasionally places when he goes places unlike Ness. Now, I'm not saying yoshi is amazing or that he's top tier, yoshi is (or should be) a solid mid and Ness is borderline low tier. Yoshi HAS the tools to compete in high level as he doesn't have any huge weaknesses and doesn't have any 'get *****' match ups, while ness has a massive weakness to grab releases, gimping, and has multiple terrible match ups.

 

[milesg2g]

I heard they were all drunk that tourney lololol.

And Chuee, I'm saying most characters have moves that they can easily abuse to the point where the gameplay is gay. I feel like Ness could easily abuse the **** out of PKT, but not enough Ness mains do it so it's not happening.

Also, I don't agree w/ him not being viable. Though the Top 20 may be filled with other characters doesn't mean it's @ random lol. Whatever characters are there had to work to get there, not simply by chance. Unless you're talking about a small local then yes lol. But top 20 @ a regional of 80? Is pretty viable or even 60 people is viable.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Nah, that's just Polt with his reverse johns. He likes to look for reasons other than his skill that made him win. I will admit though, Halberd WAS actually drunk, so that one I guess he can john about lol.

 

[Yink]

Gashi Shaky took first in a Florida tournament awhile ago too.

Stop with the character bias. Ness and Yoshi are right where they need to be. The fact we're arguing about if low mids are viable is already laughable. I still believe BOTH of them have done more in a year than some above them.

Deal with it, imo. Yoshi is mid. Ness is mid, they both deserve it.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Didn't M2K once lose to a Ness or something in 08/09 or something?

 

[z00ted]

Yink is CRAZY.

 

[Chuee]

Yoshi is viable. Polt actually took 1st in a Florida tournament a while back. Just watch his vids. Even when he loses, it goes down to the wire. Yoshi actually occasionally places when he goes places unlike Ness. Now, I'm not saying yoshi is amazing or that he's top tier, yoshi is (or should be) a solid mid and Ness is borderline low tier. Yoshi HAS the tools to compete in high level as he doesn't have any huge weaknesses and doesn't have any 'get *****' match ups, while ness has a massive weakness to grab releases, gimping, and has multiple terrible match ups.

That was only one time, I don't remember Polt winning any locals since then in Texas or Florida, but winning a local doesn't amount to being viable anyways.

Also, I don't agree w/ him not being viable. Though the Top 20 may be filled with other characters doesn't mean it's @ random lol. Whatever characters are there had to work to get there, not simply by chance. Unless you're talking about a small local then yes lol. But top 20 @ a regional of 80? Is pretty viable or even 60 people is viable.

Viable does not mean a character can place top 20 at a regional.
@suprememdirt: no

 

[BluePSI]

*something related to this*
...I'll be useful someday, honest D:

 

[Yink]

That was only one time, I don't remember Polt winning any locals since then in Texas or Florida, but winning a local doesn't amount to being viable anyways.


Viable does not mean a character can place top 20 at a regional.
@suprememdirt: no

Most definitions of viable are usually the upper half of the cast, which makes sense.

MK, A tier and B tier (well, maybe half of B) I think are generally considered "viable" because they could more or less win a national. Anyone lower than that will struggle.

Good and Viable shouldn't really be used together. Not saying you're doing that Chuee, just saying what I feel and what I think makes sense.

EDIT: And I thought M2K DID lose a MM or something against FOW? I honestly can't remember though so don't hold me to that.

 

[milesg2g]

That was only one time, I don't remember Polt winning any locals since then in Texas or Florida, but winning a local doesn't amount to being viable anyways.


Viable does not mean a character can place top 20 at a regional.
@suprememdirt: no

Oh, then what does it mean? lol

A character can be the worst of the viable characters. Melee's top 6 characters with the exception of maybe 4 others is all you see throughout the bracks usually. That's what it means to be viable lol. You said you only think about 8-10 characters are viable, and I think you're basing this off of who placed top 5 or 10. Which makes no sense because if those same character were the only one's you saw in the bracket then yes your statement would be true.

Lets look @ Melee for example

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=300030

As you can see majority of the characters used in this thread are the best characters. Not too many characters are viable in this game lol

now lets look @ Brawl

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=300610

Though the Top characters dominate the top of the bracket other characters are viable and still advance somewhat in bracket.

Melee's to the point where other characters don't even play, lol the game's pretty much a 8-10 character game and even then it's like only 6 characters with the other four being seconds.

So, yes Ness is viable in Brawl because he's able to be played in tourney w/o getting dead last. I can't even remember the last time I saw a Ness in a Brawl bracket getting last. lol he's usually like top 20 if he's good or like top 10. He's viable.

 

[*Tyson*]

I thought he only took him to game 3 last hit or something. Who knows.

Anyways, this does seem to be a discussion that isn't going anywhere. Majority people think Ness is a "bad" character. Really the only way to make anyone think any different is to start giving results with Ness. All the talk won't accomplish anything.

 

[milesg2g]

I thought he only took him to game 3 last hit or something. Who knows.

Anyways, this does seem to be a discussion that isn't going anywhere. Majority people think Ness is a "bad" character. Really the only way to make anyone think any different is to start giving results with Ness. All the talk won't accomplish anything.

This is true, I guess Chuee's right.

I think I just pretty much misunderstood you Chuee. Ness isn't viable if it means placing on the top consistently. I got confused with negligibility and viable lol my fault.

The definition of
Viable:
1.
capable of living


other definitions

5.
practicable; workable: a viable alternative.

6.
having the ability to grow, expand, develop, etc.: a new and viable country.

 

[Krystedez]

Hi ness mains.

I just asked the lucas mains the same question (essentially), and I don't mean to group you guys together (okay maybe I do ) but...

What made you choose Ness? I know Yink's story. But what about your guys'? Both the earthbound characters are very interesting to play as, but difficult to master. And it felt true to me in Melee and 64 as well. I used to play as Ness next to Mario and Fox in 64. I stopped in Melee. I'd play him in Brawl, but . . . I don't know yet.

Current list of possible thirds:
Lucario
Mario
Ness

See ya!

 

[Yink]

My story is horribly depressing though x_x.

 

[milesg2g]

I mained Ness because his head was nearly as big as mine and they were originally gonna put Lucas in the 64 game. I saw Lucas before I saw Ness so I was under the impression that Ness could turn super saiyan. I found out that wasn't the case and stuck w/ Ness because he was just mad sick yo. His split kick Nair was sick and to me he was the most original character in the game. It continued on to Melee where I mained others with Ness. Then Brawl came out and I didn't have a wii but my bro did. So I stuck with Ness only because I was the most familiar with him. I was hoping to pick up Fox and Marth in Brawl because I mained them in Melee along with Ness but because I had no Wii I didn't lol. Once I got a wii I played with other characters and now 2nd Ness only.

 

[Chuee]

EDIT: And I thought M2K DID lose a MM or something against FOW? I honestly can't remember though so don't hold me to that.

I think it was only a friendly.

 

[z00ted]

yink, wifi my ***?

 

[z00ted]

Yink isn't a mod.

 

[Yink]

I'll wifi you later tonight, we've been over this. @_@

 

[Trips707]

I mained Ness because his head was nearly as big as mine and they were originally gonna put Lucas in the 64 game. I saw Lucas before I saw Ness so I was under the impression that Ness could turn super saiyan. I found out that wasn't the case and stuck w/ Ness because he was just mad sick yo. His split kick Nair was sick and to me he was the most original character in the game. It continued on to Melee where I mained others with Ness. Then Brawl came out and I didn't have a wii but my bro did. So I stuck with Ness only because I was the most familiar with him. I was hoping to pick up Fox and Marth in Brawl because I mained them in Melee along with Ness but because I had no Wii I didn't lol. Once I got a wii I played with other characters and now 2nd Ness only.

I still can't believe that you actually believe that **** lolsupersaiyan.

I mained Ness back in late 08/ early 09 when I was just started to mess around with texture hacks and I wanted to show my friend who used Ness how they look. After playing around with him I began to like his air game more, even more than Luigi. During that time i also used Lucas just to see the difference. But after like using Ness and Lucas back and forth, found out I was better with Lucas than I was with Ness. To this day I can still use both of Mother boys without getting confused just that I'm using Lucas more.

 

[_clinton]

Someone should play with me, I get lonely easily.

 

[z00ted]

Yink will play with you.

SLOWBROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[Yink]

Would you get outta here!? lol.

 

[z00ted]

Sorry, I'm cool.