ness discussion

[asianaussie]

When you think it will look cool.

this is what he actually meant

 

[ballin4life]

Reverse weak nair works fine when your back is turned, so no real reason to prefer reverse fair in that situation IMO

Reverse weak fair is ever so slightly weaker than weak nair so I use it when I want to hit them a shorter distance

 

[The Star King]

^How did you not mention that fair is way shorter lol

In some situations nair is too laggy (probably mostly on characters who aren't fastfallers), you can do reverse fair (e.g., uair -> reverse fair -> dair on Mario or whatever)

 

[ballin4life]

^How did you not mention that fair is way shorter lol

In some situations nair is too laggy (probably mostly on characters who aren't fastfallers), you can do reverse fair (e.g., uair -> reverse fair -> dair on Mario or whatever)

yeah this is true as well. i guess i was thinking of the spot where you can time it to hit them with the very very end of the weak nair so there isn't much lag.

 

[Sangoku]

that is how I DJC. Ballin is right - I do not slide any of my fingers.

Right, I had even seen the video before that. Don't know why I got confused. I'm really happy with my method though (can't say who I've got it from anymore).

 

[151rby]

For what it's worth, Ness has some pretty neat options when there are more than 2 players. PSI Magnet can catch projectiles that were intended for someone else. PK Thunder and dair can be good for stealing KOs. And one of my favorite cheap tricks is to get KOs by hitting myself with PK Thunder, if my opponents are kind enough to keep each other busy for a second or two.

 

[Yobolight]

I don't think anyone doubts Ness's prowess at the casual level.

 

[151rby]

Oh and don't forget about how it's hard to attack him while he's throwing

Of course you can always punish a throw if you happen to be on the opposite side of him though

 

[clubbadubba]

I don't think anyone doubts Ness's prowess at the casual level.

I do! I just never reached a point in my smash career when ness was considered good with my smash community of the time. I guess I never played any casual nesses.

 

[151rby]

Well I'm the most casual Ness you'll ever meet, so watch out.

 

[Yobolight]

Jab-grab is waaaay more useful than you would think.

 

[151rby]

Oh I think it is waaaay useful.

 

[weedwack]

Has anybody djc'd out of shield to any meaningful effect?

 

[SheerMadness]

Only if they do some stupid laggy move. I think full jump dairing is the best thing to do out of your shield. Well it seems like the best to me.

 

[weedwack]

it would be helpful to see the hitbox/hurtbox animations of the two.

 

[Yobolight]

Has anybody djc'd out of shield to any meaningful effect?

Yes, but fullhop dair out of shield is far superior.

If your opponent did something stupid like use a really lag move on your shield, you can use DJC out of shield for a good punish, but that requires your opponent to be kind of dumb/making a mistake.

 

[weedwack]

I meant in terms of taking advantage of the invincibility frames, not out of shield stun from a samus utilt

 

[Yobolight]

Been wondering this for a while, but now I have an example:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx27KMPrHB4&feature=youtu.be&t=4m34s

In a situation when your fair chain does not look like you are going to be able to end it in a spike, should you abort the fair chain and with a dair and go for a tech chase, or just edge guard better than I did in the video?

 

[weedwack]

if its that close to the ledge, I would go for a grab.

 

[asianaussie]

grab or a n-air imo

 

[Battlecow]

just got around to watching that vid

pretty sweet ness, yobo, the platform movement looks I think different, maybe even a little smoother than what I've seen before (kinda reminds me of the cool platform camping stuff firo did to me semi-successfully at that one champaign tourney). Recoveries were nice too.

 

[Yobolight]

It is a new day in my Ness career. I went back to the drawing board on my DJC method and am switch to a method that is much faster. I expect to be able to do all the Nangoku techs pretty soon.

 

[mixa]

Is the extended horizontal DJC when you do an aerial in a certain point of the back DJ that makes Ness travel a longer distance?

 

[weedwack]

yup. maximum distance is from the inner edge of one platform on dreamland to the other.

 

[Yobolight]

If you space Ness's dtilt right, it is like way better than dsmash against a Falcon recovering low.
This is due to the way it shuts down DI and Falcon's poor vertical ledgegrab range.
The disjointedness of the move also make it safer than dair.

Isn't as effective against other character though.

 

[weedwack]

sounds like a great way to get hugged

 

[asianaussie]

if you keep d-tilting him falcon will eventually warp space and time and teleport through the ledge for a brotherly embrace

 

[Yobolight]

Ness's dtilt is surprisingly disjointed. You can spam it pretty far from the actual ledge.

 

[weedwack]

Yea, but still

 

[The Star King]

I would just dair him

If it's from directly above you will never get hugged (sounds like a rap line)

PK Fire is easily Ness's most underrated gimmick move. Aw yeah.

 

[weedwack]

SK listens to rap about hugs, no way he has a neck tat.

 

[Yobolight]

Can I get a list of Ness's aerials from in terms of time from the press of the button till you can use another aerial?

Example/what I guess:
1. Dair
2. Uair?
3. Fair?
4. Bair?
5. Nair?

 

[The Star King]

According to antdgar's charts, it's Nair > Bair > Fair (no Uair chart).

But Nair, according to the chart, was 12 freaking frames faster than Bair, which I thought sounded wrong (not to mention 9 frames faster than Pikachu's...). So I tested it with 1/4 training mode speed, running off a ledge and instantly doing an aerial, and mashing jump to see where the jump starts. And Nair seemed about the same as Fair and slightly slower than Bair. And definitely not that much faster. So it's pretty obviously an error (Sangoku has shown before that antdgar's charts contain inaccurate information).

Uair looked about the same as Nair and Fair too so it's hard to say. Fair is laggier than it feels...

 

[mixa]

Besides that, antd's charts contradict themselves sometimes. because he doesn't delete the old ones, you can get lost. one ex. is DK's u-tilt being the fastest tilt; then in another chart Kirby is tied with DK. (I think the correct one is where they both tie)
If I knew a good method for slowing it down frame by frame I could do that. At first I thought I was doing it right with Sony Vegas, but I was at 30fps. When I put 60 fps, it got weird and blurry. so.

I was wondering if it's possible to combo into up-b. the stun from the d-air is so stupid it seems feasible.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Besides that, antd's charts contradict themselves sometimes. because he doesn't delete the old ones, you can get lost. one ex. is DK's u-tilt being the fastest tilt; then in another chart Kirby is tied with DK. (I think the correct one is where they both tie)
If I knew a good method for slowing it down frame by frame I could do that. At first I thought I was doing it right with Sony Vegas, but I was at 30fps. When I put 60 fps, it got weird and blurry. so.

I was wondering if it's possible to combo into up-b. the stun from the d-air is so stupid it seems feasible.

I think it is possible using d-air.

 

[mixa]

How to properly shield break? I'm currently trying with Uairs. I notice that a Dair when the shield is small will shield stab. I sometimes use short hop double dair because it seems like if it doesn't shield break, it's a guaranteed hit.

Should I use different moves against different characters?

---

edit: I knew I had forgotten sth.
how does his Utilt work? is it weak when it hits the oponent at the base or when it's at the end of the knockback?

 

[weedwack]

Any aerial should work if you are fast enough. Note that dair and uair have different amounts of shieldstun, so the timing will be different. Uair is the easiest for me.

Not sure about utilt, it has some strange properties. Not a very difficult move to use though lol.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I find breaks usually the easiest with n-air (most common) or d-air (2nd most common as they sometimes shield stab as said.) I guess that u-air might be difficult for me since the timing is a bit different.

The commonality of the n-air might be since I use Yoshi more often and 90 percent of my shield breaks with Yoshi are n-air only (or n-air to a d-smash or something at the end.)

 

[mixa]

In Nangoku vs Kefit, Ness shield breaks 0% Pika on Hyrule. Couldn't he start a combo with Up-B and eventually spike Pika? I mean, Up-B -> Uair -> weak Nair -> Dair worked on training mode.

And what was he going for with that Up Smash? Dair --> tech chase something?

 

[Yobolight]

Nangoku doesn't optimize his combos well on Hyrule because he simply isn't used to the stage. Due to the fact he plays serious matches on dreamland only, I doubt he would have had any experience with using PKT2 as a combo starter. His combos in the tent also are also less than optimal.

From watching a lot of Nangoku my biggest question is why he randomly crouches so much?