ness discussion

[kys]

These are of course in addition to the mind games that exist on every other stage like delaying the arch of PK2 in order to get better positioning and stuff like that.

For anyone reading this post and learning ness, you can go ahead and ignore this little tidbit^.

But yeah, Congo is great for recovering. It evens out the recovery abilities of the cast more than any other stage, hence the reason I LUV CONGO.

 

[Yobolight]

For anyone reading this post and learning ness, you can go ahead and ignore this little tidbit^.

LMAO, Why is this not a useful maneuver in you opinion?

http://youtu.be/zMLR-t8o7Bk?t=3m6s

It throws a lot of people off.
I guess it isn't essential, if that is what you are getting at, but it is definitely a useful mindgame.
Did someone get you with it and now you are perpetually salty about the maneuver?

 

[kys]

Dude, those were friendlies. Ness didn't need to upb there (could've gone down to the stage), and it looks like Mario could have still just hit him again (although with this last part I was too lazy to watch the context of what happened right before).

Ness' upb is bad enough. Delaying it is not a good idea. HAVE YOU STILL NOT LEARNED HOW BAD THAT RECOVERY IS?

I want to find these people who are thrown off by this delaying tactic that is not useful in any way whatsoever.

 

[Yobolight]

A mix up is a mix up is a mixup and Ness needs his opponent to be thinking about as many things as possible if he is going to win matches.

If you do it once every 100 or so matches or to someone who has never seen it before and they will most likely get hit (AKA 30dmg/ free kill). I never advocated doing this a lot, but a player should be aware of all the options that a player has

The distance of PKT2 is distorted once Ness begins sliding on the ground so it can easily confuse people.

You act like I am unaware that Ness off the stage = probable death. That is exactly why I am proposing bizzare tactics because once you are off the ledge you are already gambling on your opponent screwing up, might as well up the ante with some gimmicks IMO.

 

[ballin4life]

ness's recovery is underrated. there, i said it.

 

[AtotheZ]

I think I might make a recovery tier list

 

[firo]

I've found Congo to be a stage that changes a lot for ness depending on who the opponent is. It is good for ness against a fox or a falcon because of the slants in the middle - if ness goes to the center and spams up-air, it makes his position pretty strong. Not to mention that he doesn't have to worry about lasers as much. However, the corner platforms are pretty high, and ness can have trouble getting up there against a character like kirby. Those platforms are pretty big and are slanted which can mess up tech chases and throws up there. I still think dreamland is ness's best stage against all characters besides probably kirby, jigglypuff, and pikachu (with those being better on hyrule). Also, the middle platforms, while they are good, are really small and it's not difficult for characters to DI off of them.

I also think peach's is ness's worst stage. I'm not sure why people feel good playing him there. No platforms for techchases, no recovery options, no walls, no ledges, no sweetspots. All a pikachu/fox player has to do is camp on the moving platforms and ness is almost shut down.

Regarding recovery, I don't regard congo good for recovery because there are almost 0 lagless recovery options for him there. Not to mention that stage is not that big and most characters can just go out and edgeguard. There is also no opportunity for some reverse ledge DI. Ness can go under the stage and up-air but he has to be really close to do it and it is very risky. I feel safest recovering with ness when I am up high with platforms near me and solid walls/ground. Maybe some point I'll make some pictures with some tips on what ness's options are in different scenarios (left-side-hyrule, right-side hyrule, above dreamland, below dreamland, etc.) since your approach for recovery should be different for each scenario.

While the recovery in that video that Yobolight posted may not be the best recovery usage, if you watch the context right before it, mario jumps out and tries to intercept the recovery and then I used up-b to stop myself from falling. I maybe could have just dropped down and used dair or something. Recovering from the spot that I did is probably the best spot to recover in the game for ness since it gives him the most options. Delaying the up-b I'd say is a definite strategy but doing it that close to the stage definitely was definitely a risky move. If you are looking to improve your recovery with ness the first step should be getting good at down-b sweetspots and up-b sweetspots (but doing it soon after your second jump so you still have some horizontal movement to get back to the ledge) so you don't have to use up-b at all.

 

[Yobolight]

@Firo, since you don't think Hyrule is Ness best option against Kirby, which one do you think is?

 

[asianaussie]

ness's best option is counterpicking to pikachu

ness's recovery is underrated. there, i said it.

no stop, stop ruining the order of things

STOP

Spoiler

i guess this is technically true though since this one facet of ness takes about as much crap as the rest of him combined

also, i find techchasing on peach's quite easy

 

[ballin4life]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJuwy2jqcIk&t=4m54s

the new ness motto

 

[kys]

A mix up is a mix up is a mixup and Ness needs his opponent to be thinking about as many things as possible if he is going to win matches.

If you do it once every 100 or so matches or to someone who has never seen it before and they will most likely get hit (AKA 30dmg/ free kill). I never advocated doing this a lot, but a player should be aware of all the options that a player has

The distance of PKT2 is distorted once Ness begins sliding on the ground so it can easily confuse people.

You act like I am unaware that Ness off the stage = probable death. That is exactly why I am proposing bizzare tactics because once you are off the ledge you are already gambling on your opponent screwing up, might as well up the ante with some gimmicks IMO.

Not when that "mixup" is busting out his upb.

The distance of PKT2 is not distorted. I'm not sure how it would confuse anyone. I doubt confusion was a culprit there.

But Ness wasn't off the stage in your example. Whatever bizarre tactics you propose have no bearing on a Ness that can simply drop back onto the stage.

"Sweet, I have even more time to hit you away from the stage because you're delaying PKT2? Thanks bro."

Regarding Firo's comment that recovering from that spot is the best spot for Ness to recover, obviously I agree. Rcovering high is always best. But when you can simply drop down, I mean, that's better than busting out the upb.

 

[Yobolight]

"Sweet, I have even more time to hit you away from the stage because you're delaying PKT2? Thanks bro."

Wow, you just proved my point.
That is exactly the mindset of a player before they take PKT2 to the face.
You exemplified a player falling to the reaction that the maneuver attempts to bait out.
The correct move would be to back off, and punish Ness's landing.
GG

Edit: Also keep telling Firo how to play Ness. You obviously know way more about the character than him.

 

[asianaussie]

if you're ever aiming to actually hit with the pk thunder 2 you are either super desperate, trolling/sandbagging, or just a bad player/CPU

seriously, what does 'You exemplified a player falling to the reaction that the maneuver attempts to bait out' even mean? im pretty sure you misunderstood what kys said, he's not going to try and jump up at you when you're literally narrowed your options to vulnerability, vulnerability and more vulnerability

 

[Yobolight]

Did you even watch the Firo clip?

Your last comment strikes me as somewhat ill informed.

 

[The Star King]

if you're ever aiming to actually hit with the pk thunder 2 you are either super desperate, trolling/sandbagging, or just a bad player/CPU

You forgot shieldbreaks/missed rests

lmao @ Yobolight calling other people ill informed

 

[Pooncahontas]

I think Yobo brings something to the Ness discussion that no one else quite could :'~)

I think I might make a recovery tier list

1 pika
2 jiggly
3 kirby
4 mario
5 luigi
6 samus
7 dk
8 fox
9 yoshi
10 falcon
11 ness
12 link

what do you guys reckon?
( i'm sure this has to have been posted somewhere before )

obviously there's circumstantial things to add in, such as if they were recovering high/low, damage, opponent, etc.
but what do you think?

 

[Yobolight]

Yoshi has a pretty great recovery

 

[Battlecow]

there've been threads about recovery tier lists before, look it up

general consensus was like

pikachu
mario
kirby

and IDK the rest lol I could give you a personal opinion

 

[ballin4life]

im pretty sure you misunderstood what kys said, he's not going to try and jump up at you when you're literally narrowed your options to vulnerability, vulnerability and more vulnerability

uh, aren't you invincible during the beginning of PKT2?

lmao @ Yobolight calling other people ill informed

i think he's on the right side of this admittedly silly debate

 

[Sangoku]

If by "right side" you mean your side, then he is in the wrong side

I finally understand firo's method for DJC, now that's what I think is best:

- to do a quick DJC (uair chains, shieldbreaks): slide from right C to down C to A. This simply quickly double jumps and attacks.

- to do a extended horizontal DJC (approaches and stuff): slide from down C to right C to down C to A. This allows to quickly double jump, but adds a bit of delay before attacking, which gives the time for the horizontal momentum to come out.

 

[ballin4life]

If by "right side" you mean your side, then he is in the wrong side

You're saying that he's not on my side? But I just posted that I think he's right. OMG mind****.

I finally understand firo's method for DJC, now that's what I think is best:

- to do a quick DJC (uair chains, shieldbreaks): slide from right C to down C to A. This simply quickly double jumps and attacks.

IIRC firo doesn't really slide. He "rolls" - meaning he has his thumb simultaneously resting on right C down C and A the whole time and quickly presses each button in sequence by "rolling" his thumb.

I feel like this needs diagrams to be explained lol.

 

[Cobrevolution]

i thought someone just posted that it was left c down c and a. that seems like it fits the natural shape of the thumb moreso than right c down c a.

 

[asianaussie]

ok, i hadn't actually seen the firo clip, which was actually pretty cool, but that's still quite punishable and i doubt he would've done it in-tournament (well maybe firo IS that much of a baller idk)

uh, aren't you invincible during the beginning of PKT2?

are you actually going to argue this

you're above the stage, in a position where dropping with a d-air (or a u-air if you're 2kool4skool) would have been more than adequate...and you decide to pk2?

momentary invincibility aside, it's a one-trick mixup that shouldn't work if the opponent knows ness's trajectories with pkt2

 

[Battlecow]

I mean all he's saying is that it can be good as a gimmick

which is true

I mean it caught nintendude

all that really proves is that good players **** up horribly sometimes

but why the hell not give it a shot you're dead anyways

 

[ballin4life]

I mean all he's saying is that it can be good as a gimmick

which is true

I mean it caught nintendude

all that really proves is that good players **** up horribly sometimes

but why the hell not give it a shot you're dead anyways

like I said so many times at APEX - really good players make you **** up horribly

 

[asianaussie]

ok sure, it's a workable gimmick

 

[AtotheZ]

like I said so many times at APEX - really good players make you **** up horribly

maybe no one who plays this game is actually good

 

[The Star King]

What ballin says is true. The good player effect. You **** up things against players better than you that you wouldn't normally. Because apparently the Smash gods don't want you to beat people you're not supposed to. Or you just have lower confidence. But I like the first explanation more.

 

[ballin4life]

What ballin says is true. The good player effect. You **** up things against players better than you that you wouldn't normally. Because apparently the Smash gods don't want you to beat people you're not supposed to. Or you just have lower confidence. But I like the first explanation more.

I was talking about the little tiny things they do that make things harder. Like they will get at the exact right spacing to make you miss your edgeguard or whatever. It LOOKS like you ****ed up but really they caused it - it's just hard to see what exactly they did whereas it's easy to see you missing the edgeguard on Ness or whatever.

Although what you're talking about is probably a factor too.

 

[The Star King]

OK, I still stand by what I said though. But what you just said is completely true too.

That's part of the reason why judging skill by videos sux btw. Most people notice the obvious things like whether they drop the combo or not, whether they drop the edgeguard or not, w/e, but not the subtleties

 

[firo]

I finally understand firo's method for DJC

I'll repost this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqmDxe18Pco

that is how I DJC. Ballin is right - I do not slide any of my fingers. It is an extremely easy motion as long as you become comfortable with your hand like that. Give it a week of playing time and let me know - I'm convinced that if people give it a chance they'll like it.

You'd be surprised how some of these Up-b "tricks" work sometimes on good players. Ness's recovery and trajectory is so finicky sometimes that even I don't know where I'm going to end up when I use it, and I'm sure other ness players feel the same. I was pretty surprised when I recovered through Pikachu's forward smash during the second match of my set with Sensei at Apex, for example. Things like snapping to the edge in the middle of the up-b or just bouncing and falling down is pretty arbitrary (it would be cool to actually figure out the details regarding this) too.

A lot of players don't want to jump off and edgeguard ness just to play it safe, and that is exploitable sometimes. It doesn't really work against the top players like Isai, Boomfan, Jaime, and others, but that is one of the reasons why they are as good as they are.

 

[RockinRudy]

Main Pikachu and Ness on the 64. Ness can do some serious zero to death Combos when your opponent slips up. Ness is either #1 or worst character.

 

[clubbadubba]

If those are the only 2 options then worst character

 

[M!nt]

no hes not, hes no where near worst and no where near best imo

 

[The Star King]

He probably can't decide between "Ness sucks" and "Ness is good if you know how to use him"

 

[asianaussie]

i just thought he was trying to appeal to both the vets and noobs

 

[clubbadubba]

And now no one is happy

 

[SheerMadness]

I just DJC by hitting down c twice, like Yoshi.

Unlike Yoshi you generally want to DJC much faster with Ness though. So some days my fingers don't cooperate with the Yoshi method.

Might have to practice the roll/slide method.

 

[Yobolight]

YOOOOOO

Tell me some reverse fair tips.

Like when is it better than weak nair?

 

[prisonchild]

when your back is turned to them.