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[adumbrodeus]

And this is an issue, how? Why is it a problem if he has a tactic which is extremely potent in some matchups? What, because its not fair to the opponent? boohoo, pick a character who can deal with it? What do you say to a falcon main whos trying to beat an MK planking on FD?

The concern isn't potency.

The concern is whether it's possible to effect the outcome if the opponent is using the tactic.

It is possible to attack him. Every single character can do it. whether they can return to the stage is another question. Dont throw around this word 'impossible' because it most DEFINITELY is possible.

Ok, for that group, if sonic has the lead in stock, what happens?

Sure it's possible for you to trade stocks, but haven't you lost already?

Now answer me this. What happens if it is DDD vs DK. DK can space effectively and maybe not get grabbed 3 times so he can alter the match from the start. But what happens if its even stock standings, and DK gets grabbed on the final stock both at 0%? he has absolutely no influence on the outcome of the match, cant do anything, auto GG. Now Sonic vs someone who cant hit him while under the stage without dying. this technique only works if Sonic gets a % lead. as long as the other player doesnt let sonic get a % lead, the opponent is able to easily change the outcome of the match since obviously using this technique is pointless. So you cant tell me the enemy has no control over it, while a DK mainer has complete control over getting ICG'd?

When you're caught in a death combo on last stock, you've lost, unless the opponent screws up, it's that simple.



Fundamentally speaking, the criteria is fulfilled in any situation whatsoever where, "if your opponent gets a lead of a certain type, it is literally impossible for you to prevent them from winning the match".

It undeniably ends or prevents gameplay because it's impossible to effect the outcome (just as surely as losing).

In this case, if sonic is ever ahead by stock, it's impossible for the opponent to win.

No. IDC renders gameplay impossible for the enemy, thus falling under your 'preventing gameplay' reasoning. homing stall doesnt. Sonic is still sitting there, anyone can hit him. hell almost everyone can stagespike him for a KO if they time an attack perfectly.

And if you're stock ahead?

It's a preditermined trade, your opponent has lost regardless of what they do, they cannot effect you in any substantive way.

Unlike infinite grab where it's possible to not get grabbed.

This makes it the same as IDC, where it's just as impossible to effect your opponent in a substantive way.

NO IT ISNT. ITS JUST VERY DIFFICULT.

If they can't recover from attacking sonic, then it is impossible.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Adum, sonic HAing under a stage is not invincible, its actually quite the opposite, sonic is actually very vulnerable under the stage.

They dont need to be able to recover from attacking sonic under the stage. seeing as i would say that every character has a way to stage spike sonic from that position, and do so in a way that will kill sonic before they themselves die.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Adum, sonic HAing under a stage is not invincible, its actually quite the opposite, sonic is actually very vulnerable under the stage.

They dont need to be able to recover from attacking sonic under the stage. seeing as i would say that every character has a way to stage spike sonic from that position, and do so in a way that will kill sonic before they themselves die.

Sonic is ahead a stock, what now?

 

[Browny]

GG. Your character's lack of a projectile or good recovery just got exploited.

 

[da K.I.D.]

metaknight is a stock ahead and runs to the ledge. oh look, its practically the same exact problem

 

[adumbrodeus]

metaknight is a stock ahead, oh look its practically the same exact problem

Lolwut


MK makes it very difficult, but if it's impossible to recover from hitting a sonic using homing stall then it's literally game over.

GG. Your character's lack of a projectile or good recovery just got exploited.

GG. Your character's lack of ability to hit characters with permanent invincibility just got exploited.



Same basic principal, infinite stalls have been universally banned for this problem, and that includes Sonic's homing stall against characters unable to hit him and survive.

 

[Browny]

GG. Your character's lack of ability to hit characters with permanent invincibility just got exploited..

What is this? Some sort of attempt at humour, or an argument? It doesnt look like either to me.

EVERYONE can hit Sonic under the stage. NO ONE can hit MK during his IDC.

that was easy

 

[adumbrodeus]

What is this? Some sort of attempt at humour, or an argument? It doesnt look like either to me.

EVERYONE can hit Sonic under the stage. NO ONE can hit MK during his IDC.

that was easy

Dealing damage is irrelevant, ability to get a net positive kill ratio is what matters. Damage is merely a means to an end. Killing is the same way, it's a means to either maintaining a positive kill ratio, or getting one, which is what causes you to win the game.


A technique that eliminated all knockback for an indefinite period controlled by the character at the expense of being completely immobile and unable to attack would be just as much a stall technique as the homing stall when you're a stock ahead.

Sure, you can interact, but interaction is pointless, so the problem is equivalent.

 

[Browny]

Now were getting somewhere.

Its banned to use a technique which MAY result in an auto-stock loss against the enemy (they can even the stocks if they time an attack properly, or outright counter it with projectiles etc), but not banned to use a technique which deals high (possibly infinite) damage.

Now, define how D3 ICG on DK does not fall under this category. or are the repeated chain throws considered completely separate from the fthrow at 250%? In which case, I would define the act of Sonic pressing b repeatedly is completely separate from the enemy's attempt to hit Sonic.

 

[Raioneru]

i need some advice against a good wolf and rob.


the wolf i fight bairs and fastfalls so much that if i try to approach ill get hit. not too mention whenever i forward smash sometimes down smash i get punished by wolfs fast smashes.


anyone who has played a good rob should know what i need help with there. gyro nair and up b lasting forever. also his dsmash is so annoying.

 

[ndayday]

This is more a character specific question.

Check out the Shiek Q&A.

 

[Raioneru]

oh, im terribly sorry

 

[Jinkies]

Is there a place where I can look at the Japanese Brawl tier list? I'm having trouble finding it on google, aside from a post on Gamefaqs that doesn't list any sources.

 

[Beam Sword of Death]

Is there a place where I can look at the Japanese Brawl tier list? I'm having trouble finding it on google, aside from a post on Gamefaqs that doesn't list any sources.

http://www.zeldauniverse.net/forums/spinoffs-and-cameos/86483-japanese-brawl-tier-list.html

I hope this is what you're looking for.

 

[Skadorski]

Has anyone figured out what makes you slide/not slide during a Pivot Grab?
Because I think I found it out. I don't want to make a thread on something someone already knows.

 

[Master_Raven]

Hey, I'm new to this, so sorry if it's in the wrong thread.

Anyways, I was searching around for information on the B-sticking/reversal. If I understand correctly, a B reversal is when you hit a b move and then slam the control stick in the opposite direction, thus shifting momentum in the opposite direction. But, has anyone written anything on reversing a turn around B? I know that if you slight hold a direction and hit a B move, the B move activates in the opposite direction without a momentum shift. If you do that and then B reversal it, characters do a B move forwards, yet their momentum sends them backwards. If this has been written on, sorry!

 

[infomon]

Hey, I'm new to this, so sorry if it's in the wrong thread.

Anyways, I was searching around for information on the B-sticking/reversal. If I understand correctly, a B reversal is when you hit a b move and then slam the control stick in the opposite direction, thus shifting momentum in the opposite direction. But, has anyone written anything on reversing a turn around B? I know that if you slight hold a direction and hit a B move, the B move activates in the opposite direction without a momentum shift. If you do that and then B reversal it, characters do a B move forwards, yet their momentum sends them backwards. If this has been written on, sorry!

Right you are, Master Raven, and you've come to the right thread after all.

I tend to use the term "turnaround-B" for the latter, and B-reversal for the former (which you described correctly). I'm not sure how consistent this is across the rest of the smash community, though (afaik there's very little consistency whatsoever).

For example, Sonic's Homing-Attack (neutral-B) can be turnaround-B'd, but not B-reversed, afaik. I'm not sure what the various rules are for different characters (if they even are different between different characters); like I think Ice Climbers can B-reverse (? or is it a turnaround-B??) their down-B (blizzard), but I'm quite sure that Sonic can't.
*shrug*

.... I don't think I answered anything at all. You might know this stuff better than I. What was the question??

 

[reborn394]

When I play i tend to rely on the shield grab a lot, but I usually get punished many times because of it (person I play against knows how to space the shield properly). I also do running shield grabs but the person I always play against knows that I'm gonna do that 60% of the time. Also, I try to walk/run forward, shield, then move back to counter but (you guessed it) he reads my mind. There's no point of me even trying to normal grab him because he just ground dodges it. And If I do a random move to try and trick him, he doesn't approach. My question is this: Should I A. Fight other people instead since he knows my playing style. B. Or am I just playing to defensive and not countering appropriately? Any suggestions are welcomed

Note: I will post a video later to show you guys what I mean.

 

[da K.I.D.]

playing defensively is fine, ubt you just have to do it right. based on your situation you can either:

do an aerial out of shield

do a very slow ground move that will beat the spotdodge. it looks like you play DK so i think you can just f smash out of shield and it will beat his spotdodge.

if they are doing a slow enough move, you can do a quicker aerial to beat their lagless move that they are using to pressure your shield.

tl;dr, break your habits and mix it up

 

[Master_Raven]

Right you are, Master Raven, and you've come to the right thread after all.

I tend to use the term "turnaround-B" for the latter, and B-reversal for the former (which you described correctly). I'm not sure how consistent this is across the rest of the smash community, though (afaik there's very little consistency whatsoever).

For example, Sonic's Homing-Attack (neutral-B) can be turnaround-B'd, but not B-reversed, afaik. I'm not sure what the various rules are for different characters (if they even are different between different characters); like I think Ice Climbers can B-reverse (? or is it a turnaround-B??) their down-B (blizzard), but I'm quite sure that Sonic can't.
*shrug*

.... I don't think I answered anything at all. You might know this stuff better than I. What was the question??

Haha, thanks. I was just wondering basically how much in general this has been looked into or if I was just repeating a lot of other people. I don't know if Sonic, is the greatest example to use though, since his B moves tend to sort of halt his momentum...
But the combination of turnaround-B'd and B-reversed just seem to have really weird momentum shifting properties. If I understand correctly, all moves can be turnaround-B'd and B-reversed. When done in combination, a character can b move forward while having momentum that goes backwards. Are there any characters that can really take advantage of this? I would think some projectile characters like Falco or Mario would be good with this tactic, but does it really help anyone else? Also, can standard B moves be edge canceled, or whatever the proper term is for when a character slides off a ledge and can perform another action immediately?

 

[infomon]

Yeah that stuff's been looked into a bunch, but I don't have any sources atm. I think the Ness and Lucas people, in particular, went kinda crazy about such things, so maybe ask around their boards for ppl who would know the mechanics in depth.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i know snakes use it a lot as well to b reverse their nade pulls so as to avoid getting juggled

also...

Has anyone figured out what makes you slide/not slide during a Pivot Grab?
Because I think I found it out. I don't want to make a thread on something someone already knows.

please please please do this, and give me the link when you do

 

[Kewkky]

I have a question, mostly about PR's...

What's the formula used to determine power rankings? Is there even a formula for it, or do people just take into account the number of tourney wins and placings, put em next to each other, and visually determine who's 1st, 2nd, 3rd...?

I's just a curiosity question, and I have no idea how USA does this.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Every region does their PR differently

as a person that plans to create a PR for his area in the next couple weeks I did a lot of research on this.

Some regions that have (multiple) regular tournaments, have a strictly numbers based system that pretty much takes everyones placings and assigns them points that add up over the tourneys, and then put those points together and put those players in order based on their points

Some regions that arent as regular, have a panel of people that speak together and based on placements and victories and defeats over specific people and those people go by more of a feeling and just pool everyones opinion into a list that everyone can agree with.

and some regions have a system that mixes the two above methods and assigns points based on placements and than has a panel to determine placings between people of near equal point values.


tl;dr it varies by region

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Haha, thanks. I was just wondering basically how much in general this has been looked into or if I was just repeating a lot of other people. I don't know if Sonic, is the greatest example to use though, since his B moves tend to sort of halt his momentum...
But the combination of turnaround-B'd and B-reversed just seem to have really weird momentum shifting properties. If I understand correctly, all moves can be turnaround-B'd and B-reversed. When done in combination, a character can b move forward while having momentum that goes backwards. Are there any characters that can really take advantage of this? I would think some projectile characters like Falco or Mario would be good with this tactic, but does it really help anyone else? Also, can standard B moves be edge canceled, or whatever the proper term is for when a character slides off a ledge and can perform another action immediately?

Yeah alot of Lucas's game is based off this, my friend does this dash-boosted-fullhop-b-reversed-turnaround-side b into b-reversed-turnaround-down-b trick. Basically he pk-fires while moving back alot, then zap right back in my face with a pk-magnet, its crazy.

I tried testing this with Snake and Falco, its actually not all that useful for falco because his horizontal air movement speed is so bad, but with snake you have some nice momentum shifts with his nade and c4 and nikita.

 

[Jinkies]

http://www.zeldauniverse.net/forums/spinoffs-and-cameos/86483-japanese-brawl-tier-list.html

I hope this is what you're looking for.

Thanks a bunch!

 

[Kewkky]

Every region does their PR differently

as a person that plans to create a PR for his area in the next couple weeks I did a lot of research on this.

Some regions that have (multiple) regular tournaments, have a strictly numbers based system that pretty much takes everyones placings and assigns them points that add up over the tourneys, and then put those points together and put those players in order based on their points

Some regions that arent as regular, have a panel of people that speak together and based on placements and victories and defeats over specific people and those people go by more of a feeling and just pool everyones opinion into a list that everyone can agree with.

and some regions have a system that mixes the two above methods and assigns points based on placements and than has a panel to determine placings between people of near equal point values.


tl;dr it varies by region

I see...


Thanks for the answer, by the way, helps out a lot. I know there are PR lists, I'm just unsure of the way they make them.

 

[Healer]

What's so bad about rolling, my friends tell me not to do it, but i want to know why? (btw, i main wolf if that helps)

 

[Kewkky]

What's so bad about rolling, my friends tell me not to do it, but i want to know why? (btw, i main wolf if that helps)

I'ma explain this in my way...

When you roll, you're immediately commiting to going a set distance, and until you reach your destination, you can't do ANYTHING.

-----------------------------------------
Model of a stage while you roll:

|.__.__.__.__.__.__.__.__.|

| = walls, _ = floor, . = character's rolling destination

While you're rolling, you're open to anything your opponent wants to do to you, and you can't do ANYTHING until you finish your roll. If your opponent notices you're rolling too much, he will start waiting until you roll, see where you're rolling, then immediately start an attack or run in the direction you're rolling in order to punish you when you're stopping, which is when your invincibility frames run out... If you roll WHILE NEXT TO YOUR ENEMY, you'll either roll away from him, or behind him, which gives him only 2 options: attack behind him, or attack ahead of him... And if it's a VERY patient opponent, all he has to do is watch closely in the direction you're rolling, and once he knows, choose the option for your direction.

You're literally giving him all the details of where you're going to be AND leaving yourself open, if you do it excessively! It's only good to use it every once in a while, rarely if your character isn't one for rolls or spotdodges.

-----------------------------------------

While you're NOT rolling, you have all of your options open... You can move anywhere, you can initiate any attack, you can jump, you can grab... While rolling you can only hope he doesn't reach you in time or guesses wrongly.

Now that you know that rolling excessively is bad, try and make up a different strategy for avoiding being punished... Might I suggest learning how to powershield as many of your opponent's attacks and grab them out of it, as well as space attacks to avoid having to roll away from danger? If you have both of those mastered, you'll find yourself doing WAY better against your friends than ever before.

 

[Healer]

I'ma explain this in my way...

When you roll, you're immediately commiting to going a set distance, and until you reach your destination, you can't do ANYTHING.

-----------------------------------------
Model of a stage while you roll:

|.__.__.__.__.__.__.__.__.|

| = walls, _ = floor, . = character's rolling destination

While you're rolling, you're open to anything your opponent wants to do to you, and you can't do ANYTHING until you finish your roll. If your opponent notices you're rolling too much, he will start waiting until you roll, see where you're rolling, then immediately start an attack or run in the direction you're rolling in order to punish you when you're stopping, which is when your invincibility frames run out... If you roll WHILE NEXT TO YOUR ENEMY, you'll either roll away from him, or behind him, which gives him only 2 options: attack behind him, or attack ahead of him... And if it's a VERY patient opponent, all he has to do is watch closely in the direction you're rolling, and once he knows, choose the option for your direction.

You're literally giving him all the details of where you're going to be AND leaving yourself open, if you do it excessively! It's only good to use it every once in a while, rarely if your character isn't one for rolls or spotdodges.

-----------------------------------------

While you're NOT rolling, you have all of your options open... You can move anywhere, you can initiate any attack, you can jump, you can grab... While rolling you can only hope he doesn't reach you in time or guesses wrongly.

Now that you know that rolling excessively is bad, try and make up a different strategy for avoiding being punished... Might I suggest learning how to powershield as many of your opponent's attacks and grab them out of it, as well as space attacks to avoid having to roll away from danger? If you have both of those mastered, you'll find yourself doing WAY better against your friends than ever before.

Okay i understand the spacing attacks deal but is powershield the thing that makes that"TING" sound? also is it okay to roll back on stage?

 

[Kewkky]

Okay i understand the spacing attacks deal but is powershield the thing that makes that"TING" sound? also is it okay to roll back on stage?

Yep, powershield is the shield that makes the "TING" sound... It's much faster than a shield and protects you from EVERYTHING, including lag from other people hitting your shield, and you don't get pushed back... It's like you completely nullify the opponent's attacks.

And in very rare occasions, rolling back on-stage is a good idea... It's the same sad story, except sadder: if you roll on-stage a lot, that's what your opponent will be expecting you to do, and he'll either cover the whole area with a strong, sweeping attack so that you're hurt no matter what, or he'l use a strong attack where your roll is supposed to end... So it's much more punishable than a normal roll on the stage.

 

[Kaffei]

What are some good ways to deal with people who spam rolls?

 

[LaIotun]

What are some good ways to deal with people who spam rolls?

And smash spammerszzz

 

[SCOTU]

deal with rolls by seeing them roll and putting a long lasting hitbox where they're going to get out of the roll.

w/ smash spammers, just shield their smash or avoid it, and hit them in their lag.

 

[Kaffei]

Why do new players spam roll, smashes, and dash attacks?

 

[Yumewomiteru]

When I meteor cancel do i mash jump/up-b as soon as i get spiked or do i wait a certain amount of time then press jump/up-b?

 

[4nace]

Is there a way out of the 2v1 grab release combo. I saw somewhere that spamming X,Y or Up will force an air release. But I never get that to work. Usually if they get a grab off on me in a 2v1 then I'm down a stock.

Thanks,
4nace.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Is there a way out of the 2v1 grab release combo. I saw somewhere that spamming X,Y or Up will force an air release. But I never get that to work. Usually if they get a grab off on me in a 2v1 then I'm down a stock.

Thanks,
4nace.

If they're doing it right, you cannot force an air-release.
So it is inescapable unless you buffer a trip, according to a Captain Falcon video that I can't find.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Mashing jump button hoping they mess up in pummel timing is still the best method for getting out

 

[BSP]

When I meteor cancel do i mash jump/up-b as soon as i get spiked or do i wait a certain amount of time then press jump/up-b?

You can meteor cancel once your character has traveled half the distance of what they wouldve traveled had they not meteor cancelled. You can use your up b or jump, but i dont think small jumpls like MK's or specials ike Pit's up b can meteor cancel, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I usually mash the jump button and it works fine.