NEC XIII - A Huge Opportunity for the Smash Community!

[da K.I.D.]

I always did wonder why nobody tried to mod sfxt to make it better competitively.

 

[GHNeko]

Because the FGC values tradition over practically everything, as well as the lasting mentality of, "**** PATCHES. MARVEL 2 WAS BROKEN FOR 11 YEARS. LOOK WHERE IT IS NOW! ITS AMAZING." sprinkled over every possible ****ing thing.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I don't know why your saying Smash in general as opposed to just Brawl, which is the game that incited all this in the first place. No one to very few people are claiming that Melee and 64 as bad as well.

The way I see it, Brawl is the one being modded because it is the one that can be modded in such way.
I'm pretty sure that if dedicated programmers and countless tools existed back in Melee times, it would have been modified as well (I mean, just look a it, it's pretty unbalanced character-wise, some tweaks here and there would have been great for the game).

In some spirit, that some of Brawl's various rulesets (such as what came out of the BBR-RC) are just applying a different approach to making Brawl a competitively viable game by modifying the winning and losing conditions rather than the mechanics.

So does Melee (and 64 to an extent), I don't get why some people have to bash Brawl for something every Smash game had since forever ago.

That said, there's nothing wrong with having a ruleset, even a compicated one (I mean, just look at sports, all of them make different games depending on their rulesets, even though most of them just involve people and a ball), it will set the game that is to be played, while making sure nothing can go wrong.

Instead, we have a mod, that is changing the whole mechanics of the game, to make it "better" than the original modified game, and "better" than the game that inspired it.
I mean, it is a game a lot of people enjoy and all, but supporting a hacked game over the original ones is a bad image of those games for other communities (and also has some legality implications, in case we want Smash to get into any bigger scenario).

 

[GHNeko]

The way I see it, Brawl is the one being modded because it is the one that can be modded in such way.
I'm pretty sure that if dedicated programmers and countless tools existed back in Melee times, it would have been modified as well (I mean, just look a it, it's pretty unbalanced character-wise, some tweaks here and there would have been great for the game).

Melee is actively being modded but only for character balance, so its not out of distaste for the game. It's out of the desire for something fresh that isn't P:M.

Distaste for Brawl is what inspired large scale modding to the degree that spawned BBrawl, B+, and P:M and other various mods.

 

[ぱみゅ]

lol, it's like if people don't like Melee they just don't play it; but if people don't like Brawl they either bash it or change it as much as they can (or both).

In any case, I think we're derailing the point.
Hacked games shouldn't be supported over the originals for this kind of sponsored events, I rather see Melee or SB64 in a major tournament than a hack trying to resemble them.

[collapse=Collapse in order not to derail the point even further]]The next are my observations about each mod (except the BBrawl part, I was part of that project, so I know exactly what I am talking about when it comes to it).

B+ was made because many people didn't like Brawl changes (it was also made during Brawl's early life span), and they added/changed many things so they could make a flashy, balanced game... but they took it way too far and the project died for itself.

B- was a parody of B+.

BBrawl's philosophy was "we love Brawl, that's why its core mechanics will be intact, having only certain changes to the characters; the less noticeable they are, the better". The game is pretty much the same, and most of the time you couldn't even notice it was changed from regular Brawl.

P:M feels like they were trying to refresh Melee rather than changing Brawl.

All of the other mods feels like people wanted to do them just for fun.[/collapse]

 

[Evilagram]

Screw hacks, screw originals, screw brawl, screw melee, I want the greatest game that can possibly be brought to us, no matter where it comes from. It doesn't matter if the game is "hacked" or not. It matters what the game is. If you disagree then you are saying that we should actively play flawed games like brawl for some sense of "legitimacy". What is legitimate is the game itself above all else. Willingly cultivating an attitude of false legitimacy over trying to create the best tournaments possible is a disservice to the community.

Brawl hacks are not illegal.

 

[GDX]

Nvm I'm done with this thread lol forget I was here

 

[Eggm]

I'd enter AE and melee for sure. <3 philly tournaments.

 

[Doomolish]

Yay!

Melee and P:M ftw!

 

[Mew2King]

I can't believe you're discussing hacks. Melee and Brawl should be the only games in there. Proj M is not an "official" game and is not EVEN SLIGHTLY comparable to melee and brawl and won't have sponsors, or not comparable sponsors if you do find any. Proj M is fun because it's newer, but it doesn't hold a candle to the originals. I also personally think the originals are more fun, but it's mainly for the reasons I said above.

 

[Hot_ArmS]

Brawl brawl brawl

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

brawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwl

 

[M@v]

Brawl ^____^

 

[_umbra_]

melee, because **** those two^

^_^

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Brawl and Melee, would not recommend streaming Project M if you host it.

 

[Strong Badam]

Project M baby

Focus on how good the game is, not who made it. Fools.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Just for everyones info.

you cant stream a game thats been hacked, at a large scale tournament with sponsors involved... thats like the express lane for having legal action taken against you.

 

[GHNeko]

Wonder where people get this info...

 

[shanus]

Project M and Melee.

Additionally, all legal concerns are out the window since P:M in no way condones hacking your wii. Given the game can be loaded with "hackless" means through a brawl stage-loader exploit, I think it is pretty much a moot point. Additionally, you wouldn't put your PR around saying "brawl is a terrible game and needed modifications to be competitive" you would present it to sponsors with a much more positive spin about a community project that has evolved to have a huge scene around the country... If games like DOTA, CS, etc, can pull it off, I fail to see why smash is any exception other than a closed-minded community. Whether you personally dislike PM or not is a side issue in its entirety, because everyone is entitled to their own preference.

 

[GHNeko]

If anything, the hackless method is the preferred method because you're not even breaking Nintendo's latest EULA when it comes to hacking the wii in anyway shape or form since no alterations are being made to the wii, nor are allowing access to any sort of source code.

 

[Mew2King]

no offense but you're all being really stupid by talking about hacks for a tournament like this. Give it up. Hacks are NEVER going to be the main thing. Play the main game. I could understand if this was a regular tourney, maybe, but not with sponsors. Don't even have a friendly set-up for it. It makes Melee/Brawl look worse since you'd prefer a hack over the main game. Which, you shouldn't anyway, cuz the originals are better, and countless times bigger.

 

[GHNeko]

Didn't know you could predict the future, M2K.

Pretty sure no one ever thought that mods of HL2 and other games would of never become mainstream.
Pretty sure no one ever thought capcom would pick up mechanics from a hacked and pirated version of their own games either.

I'm not saying this is what's going to happen to any smash mod, but really, anything can happen.

Also, it's pretty frivolous to say, "No offense" and then insult someone lol
If you're gonna insult us, do it straight.

 

[cannedbread]

project m, brawl, melee. doesn't make a difference to me.

[COLLAPSE="also"]

[/COLLAPSE]

 

[Slashy]

no offense but you're all being really stupid by talking about hacks for a tournament like this. Give it up. Hacks are NEVER going to be the main thing. Play the main game. I could understand if this was a regular tourney, maybe, but not with sponsors. Don't even have a friendly set-up for it. It makes Melee/Brawl look worse since you'd prefer a hack over the main game. Which, you shouldn't anyway, cuz the originals are better, and countless times bigger.

It seems like you care more about sponsors than a good gameplay experience. Do you ever play for fun?

 

[da K.I.D.]

Winning money is fun...

Also, who gave you the right as someone who changes the game to dictate to me what makes for "a good gameplay experience"?

 

[Shonic]

Winning money is fun...

Also, who gave you the right as someone who changes the game to dictate to me what makes for "a good gameplay experience"?

If winning money is fun, you should have no problem with extra tournaments. That's extra chances to win money. And if it's so "easy", again, you should have no problem because that is easy money. And it's not just about what you think, it's about the popular opinion. And one more thing, if there is already a vanilla brawl event(And/or melee, kinda thread hopping here) then what's the problem? Let the people have their fun, and participate in the tournaments you want to join. It's like say "I DON'T LIKE METAL GEAR SOLID PEACE WALKER! KONAMI, PLEASE RECALL THE GAME OR I WILL NEVER BUY A GAME FROM YOU AGAIN!"

Which, you shouldn't anyway, cuz the originals are better, and countless times bigger.

That's the sad part. If what you said were true, then we wouldn't have all these hacks. But unfortunatly, brawl is such a lacking mess of a game that people had to make mods in order for it to be playable. I know you are apart of the melee scene, but look at that compared to brawl. 11 years later, and people still prefer it over brawl, the newer game. And now look, people try to make the game more like melee just with the addition of more characters. I honestly don't see the problem with hacks.

 

[da K.I.D.]

If winning money is fun, you should have no problem with extra tournaments. That's extra chances to win money. And if it's so "easy", again, you should have no problem because that is easy money. And it's not just about what you think, it's about the popular opinion. And one more thing, if there is already a vanilla brawl event(And/or melee, kinda thread hopping here) then what's the problem? Let the people have their fun, and participate in the tournaments you want to join. It's like say "I DON'T LIKE METAL GEAR SOLID PEACE WALKER! KONAMI, PLEASE RECALL THE GAME OR I WILL NEVER BUY A GAME FROM YOU AGAIN!"



That's the sad part. If what you said were true, then we wouldn't have all these hacks. But unfortunatly, brawl is such a lacking mess of a game that people had to make mods in order for it to be playable. I know you are apart of the melee scene, but look at that compared to brawl. 11 years later, and people still prefer it over brawl, the newer game. And now look, people try to make the game more like melee just with the addition of more characters. I honestly don't see the problem with hacks.

Ive won money in brawl + and brawl - tournaments. Slashy knows this from personal experience. Trust me, it IS easy money.

i dont consider either one of those games more fun then brawl. And I like brawl over melee so I dont have much of a taste for project M, especially when you guys act like its ok to put out a smash game without kirby in it.

the problem is that you guys act like just because theres space for brawl somewhere that you can muscle in and make space for your game by piggy backing on a game that you guys dont even like. I never said, you cant have fun, or you cant play P:m. all im saying is dont try to force P:m into every seeable crevice just because brawl is there.


also, people still prefer Street fighter 2 super turbo over every other street fighter game (sf4, sf alpha AND sf 3) 20 years after the fact. all that proves is that people have their preferences.

people that like sf2 dont hack/change sf4 and sfxt to play more like sf2 with more characters. they just leave it alone and play the game they like. I honestly dont see why people cant just do that.

 

[shanus]

the problem is that you guys act like just because theres space for brawl somewhere that you can muscle in and make space for your game by piggy backing on a game that you guys dont even like. I never said, you cant have fun, or you cant play P:m. all im saying is dont try to force P:m into every seeable crevice just because brawl is there.

The point of this thread is to ask what games people want at this tournament. If you have forgotten that, then re-read the OP. Lots of people have replied and said project M. However, you are trying to say no it shouldn't be there. This is extremely contradictory.

 

[Slashy]

Ive won money in brawl + and brawl - tournaments. Slashy knows this from personal experience. Trust me, it IS easy money.

i dont consider either one of those games more fun then brawl. And I like brawl over melee so I dont have much of a taste for project M, especially when you guys act like its ok to put out a smash game without kirby in it.

the problem is that you guys act like just because theres space for brawl somewhere that you can muscle in and make space for your game by piggy backing on a game that you guys dont even like. I never said, you cant have fun, or you cant play P:m. all im saying is dont try to force P:m into every seeable crevice just because brawl is there.


also, people still prefer Street fighter 2 super turbo over every other street fighter game (sf4, sf alpha AND sf 3) 20 years after the fact. all that proves is that people have their preferences.

people that like sf2 dont hack/change sf4 and sfxt to play more like sf2 with more characters. they just leave it alone and play the game they like. I honestly dont see why people cant just do that.

Ignoring P:M for a moment, Brawl+ and Brawl- were created because Brawl was a step in the opposite direction for the series, and introduced many elements that are deemed bad for both the Smash series and fighting games in general.

Players didn't move from Brawl because it wasn't Melee, it was because it was a bad game, had vBrawl been something closer to + or -, I expect that things would have played out much differently. If SF4 had been a bad game, it probably would have died pretty quickly and we would not see things like SSF4. SF4 is a fighting game, for it to have bad mechanics and poor character balance would make the game unpopular and eventually unprofitable. Smash was known first and foremost as a party game to celebrate the history of Nintendo and to provide non-stop chaotic action, being a deep and balanced fighter was not a priority, neither to the developers or the majority of the consumers. Nintendo does not support the tournament scene the way producers like Capcom, SNK, Arc Sys Works, do.

SF4 could be considered as good as SSF2T, so game choice is largely a preference, it also includes many mechanics that allows some skills and strategies to carry over, no one is hacking SF4 to play like SF2 because no one in the SF2 community is demanding it, and I don't believe anyone is demanding it because SF4 does not have bad mechanics, copious amounts of glitches, or poor character balance.

The reason P:M was created was simply because + and -, while having better mechanics and character balance from Brawl, are also inferior to Melee in terms of both a mechanics standpoint (namely numerous moveset changes and mechanics that do not have as many options as in Melee) and a tech skill standpoint. You also have to consider that the devs had the tools available, so there is a matter of challenging themselves.

 

[shanus]

This thread should not focus on why mods were made. Instead, focus on GIMR's original requests of which games people would like to see at this tournament.

 

[CT Chia]

I just hope people recognize the importance of tournaments like this, that could easily have Namco reps at the actual event, and if not, at least recognizing it's presence online. NEC is Big E's largest series, and he's one of the biggest FGC TOs.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Ignoring P:M for a moment, Brawl+ and Brawl- were created because Brawl was a step in the opposite direction for the series, and introduced many elements that are deemed bad for both the Smash series and fighting games in general.

Players didn't move from Brawl because it wasn't Melee, it was because it was a bad game, had vBrawl been something closer to + or -, I expect that things would have played out much differently. If SF4 had been a bad game, it probably would have died pretty quickly and we would not see things like SSF4. SF4 is a fighting game, for it to have bad mechanics and poor character balance would make the game unpopular and eventually unprofitable. Smash was known first and foremost as a party game to celebrate the history of Nintendo and to provide non-stop chaotic action, being a deep and balanced fighter was not a priority, neither to the developers or the majority of the consumers. Nintendo does not support the tournament scene the way producers like Capcom, SNK, Arc Sys Works, do.

SF4 could be considered as good as SSF2T, so game choice is largely a preference, it also includes many mechanics that allows some skills and strategies to carry over, no one is hacking SF4 to play like SF2 because no one in the SF2 community is demanding it, and I don't believe anyone is demanding it because SF4 does not have bad mechanics, copious amounts of glitches, or poor character balance.

The reason P:M was created was simply because + and -, while having better mechanics and character balance from Brawl, are also inferior to Melee in terms of both a mechanics standpoint (namely numerous moveset changes and mechanics that do not have as many options as in Melee) and a tech skill standpoint. You also have to consider that the devs had the tools available, so there is a matter of challenging themselves.

you shouldnt talk on things you dont know anything about.

sf4 WAS a bad game and the character balance WAS really bad. thats the reason they patched it with super to begin with. but had it not been patched, people wouldnt have hacked it, they would have just stopped playing it. theres a fully functioning super turbo community, theres a perfectly fine third strike community, and theres a blooming sf4 community. and nobodys ever felt the need to take yun and yang and adon and rufus and hack them into super turbo.

if you dont like the game, leave it alone and play something else. dont change it based on whatever corny arbitrary distinctions you have about it. nobody is trying to change sf2 back into super turbo, because all those people are still back there playing super turbo.

If you want to say, hey I love brawl so much, but I think I can do it better than nintendo did, that would be a lot more ingenious then all the hackers ive seen talk about how much they hate brawl.

 

[Strong Badam]

Don't change it?
Someone who mods a game specifically to improve the game experience doesn't understand, and doesn't have the right, to talk about what a good game experience is?
If you don't like the game, leave it alone and play something else?

This is hilariously hypocritical coming from a community that's split over whether or not to surgically remove a character from the game. Mew2King lost a tournament game because of a rule that prevents the player from going under the stage twice in a row, and another because he won via time out and he had 37 Ledge Grabs and his opponent did not. If you want to start talking about arbitrary changes, you seriously need to take a good look at your own community first.

Other communities aren't doing X, so we shouldn't? Ignoring the fact that those communities are playing games that the game developers cater specifically to that community, while ours ****s on it? A laughable notion.

We get it. You like Brawl. Cool. Support it. We're trying to do the same thing for the game we like, and that game is Project M. We aren't telling you not to support Brawl. The least you can do is the same.

 

[Slashy]

you shouldnt talk on things you dont know anything about.

sf4 WAS a bad game and the character balance WAS really bad. thats the reason they patched it with super to begin with. but had it not been patched, people wouldnt have hacked it, they would have just stopped playing it. theres a fully functioning super turbo community, theres a perfectly fine third strike community, and theres a blooming sf4 community. and nobodys ever felt the need to take yun and yang and adon and rufus and hack them into super turbo.

if you dont like the game, leave it alone and play something else. dont change it based on whatever corny arbitrary distinctions you have about it. nobody is trying to change sf2 back into super turbo, because all those people are still back there playing super turbo.

If you want to say, hey I love brawl so much, but I think I can do it better than nintendo did, that would be a lot more ingenious then all the hackers ive seen talk about how much they hate brawl.

There is very little in the way of competition for Smash, the series is still pretty much the only of its kind, not to mention Capcom actually cares about its competitive fanbase. They listen to their community, if Capcom was making Smash chances are someone like Shanus would have been hired by them. There wouldn't be hacks if Nintendo was willing to release balance patches, glitch fixes, and mechanic updates.

There really isn't an alternative to Brawl, there aren't many games in the series, and there really isn't any notable competition, while there are a huge number of 2D fighters and even a noteworthy competitor (SNK) that could steal the fanbase if Capcom ****s up, so if we like Smash Bros. gameplay and we adore all of the notable, we're either stuck with a really old game or a really bad one. There aren't as many options to choose from, unlike the Street Fighter community.

And while vSF4 was silly, it was leagues ahead of vBrawl, to compare the two is silly.

 

[Evilagram]

Sorry Shanus.

you shouldnt talk on things you dont know anything about.

sf4 WAS a bad game and the character balance WAS really bad. thats the reason they patched it with super to begin with. but had it not been patched, people wouldnt have hacked it, they would have just stopped playing it. theres a fully functioning super turbo community, theres a perfectly fine third strike community, and theres a blooming sf4 community. and nobodys ever felt the need to take yun and yang and adon and rufus and hack them into super turbo.

if you dont like the game, leave it alone and play something else. dont change it based on whatever corny arbitrary distinctions you have about it. nobody is trying to change sf2 back into super turbo, because all those people are still back there playing super turbo.

If you want to say, hey I love brawl so much, but I think I can do it better than nintendo did, that would be a lot more ingenious then all the hackers ive seen talk about how much they hate brawl.

You shouldn't talk about what you don't know about.

And what you're not aware of is that brawl is literally the worst balanced game I know. I say this on the basis of standard deviations. Standard deviations are a measurement of how far every character is from balanced on a matchup chart (by adding up the absolute value of the distance from a 5:5 matchup on every matchup). Brawl's the only game I know of with characters that have over 60% standard deviation and the most balanced character is above 34% standard deviation. This means it is more unbalanced than Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. It is more unbalanced than Final Fantasy Dissidia (both of these are supremely unbalanced games with tons of 9:1 matchups). It's more unbalanced than every version of street fighter. The most balanced character is in the same range of balance as the least balanced Third Strike character (which is also not considered a very balanced game). No matter how bad the original SF4 was, it did not reach close to Brawl's tremendous list of glitches and miserable balance. For comparison, Melee's worst balanced character was around 30% standard deviation, and best was around 14%.

If you love brawl, that is fine, enjoy, but we have a valid reason for wanting to fix it and disliking the game.

The basic reason for the mods is, Brawl, a game that never should have been considered for competitive play, somehow took root where it never should. If we all did move back to Melee, then things might have worked out alright. When Capcom didn't release great games, Super Turbo kept them strong. I don't know what it is about the Smash community, but for some reason that idea never sunk in. But fact is, like it or not, Brawl is popular, and I'm sure every modder in the brawl workshop thought the same thing I did when I found out that it was possible to mod brawl, "Lets make it like Melee." And hell, we might as well, it's not like there isn't precedent for modders making games better, it's happened since the dawn of esports.

Starcraft originally had a ton of imbalance between the 3 sides, the zerg especially being overpowered. The Starcraft community seriously wanted a balanced game and this lead to the institution of new maps that were designed to limit early zerg rushes and to give every player a nice main base setup and one easy expansion. This, combined with a ton of lobbying with blizzard and internal efforts to modify the game which blizzard made official with patches resulted in one of the most balanced asymmetrical games in existence.

Quake 3 in its original state had pretty miserable maps, and a number of other problems, like one advanced technique, strafe jumping, being totally frame rate dependent, so people with better hardware could do it more effectively. Mods like CPMA created stable tick rates for everyone, leveling the playing field. While CPMA did that, Id software saw it fit to totally patch strafejumping out of the game, so CPMA was literally competing with the official version of the game for a long time. Along with the framerate fix, it introduced instant weapon switch, which became a huge part of railgun strategy among other things, rebalanced weapons, better air control, better AI, better HUDs, new replay features, and new jump tactics. CPMA was accepted as the official competitive standard, supplanting the original game, and later on, Quake Live was launched, itself being based on CPMA.

"nobody is trying to change sf2 back into super turbo, because all those people are still back there playing super turbo."
Newsflash, SF2, IS SUPER TURBO. We aren't all still playing world warrior or anything.

People have modded games to be more suited to a competitive environment since the beginning, and if they hadn't, with Counter Strike, Starcraft, and Quake 3 as our vanguards, esports as a concept may not exist in the first place.


Inbeforelolnintendowillneversupportit. That's a fallacious argument, they don't support smash tournaments in the first place. That and whether it is supported or not doesn't matter, and never did. All that matters is the game.

 

[da K.I.D.]

We aren't telling you not to support Brawl.

This right here is the crux of the arguement.

I didnt even bother reading any else past this.

Be dead set, 100% completely honest.

Does ANY SINGLE ONE OF YOU, really in their heart believe this statement?

 

[GHNeko]

I do. I honestly don't have a problem with Brawl being played. I don't think it's a good competitive game and have reasons to back my claim, but I'd never want to tell people to stop playing it in a serious tone.

Maybe as a joke since it's a running gag within the community to stop playing a game to play something eles, but that's about it.

 

[Strong Badam]

Yes. When did I say "Hey, what are you doing? Why are you saying 'I'd go to a Brawl event at this'? You can't do that. I don't like that game, so you can't support it"? When did ANY of us do that?

And great job ignoring the rest of my post. If you don't have a good response for the rest of it, that's fine, I didn't expect you to. But don't pull a single sentence out of a post, make an accusation, and think in your head that you've refuted anything, because you haven't, and no one else reading this thread will believe you have. That line was near the end of my post, too, so even if you had "stopped reading there" you saw the bulk of it and chose not to respond to it.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Do people really can't realize how important this kind of tournaments are, and that it is crucial for SMASH as a whole not to promote hacked games for them?

@SB's argument: I only play Brawl, but I support Brawl, Melee and 64.
Any of them would do great, and them having great success would be fantastic for Nintendo so they can start looking for their competitive fanbase.

I'm not saying hacks are bad (I was part of BBrawl's team, I love it and still support it, even though it never was popular and it is pretty much dead), I'm just saying people shouldn't prioritize them, specially when it comes to this kind of big, sponsoder events.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Yes. When did I say "Hey, what are you doing? Why are you saying 'I'd go to a Brawl event at this'? You can't do that. I don't like that game, so you can't support it"? When did ANY of us do that?

And great job ignoring the rest of my post. If you don't have a good response for the rest of it, that's fine, I didn't expect you to. But don't pull a single sentence out of a post, make an accusation, and think in your head that you've refuted anything, because you haven't, and no one else reading this thread will believe you have. That line was near the end of my post, too, so even if you had "stopped reading there" you saw the bulk of it and chose not to respond to it.

When I said that I didnt read past that, I was refering to the fact that I didnt read the 2-3 really long posts aimed at me that came after yours, I read your post fully and deemed it all to to be secondary to the "I dont tell people not to support brawl point" Which is kind of full of crap, because the majority of that post and the majority of all the posts coming from people who play project m or any hacked game over brawl for the last 3 years are bashing brawl, telling people not to play it, and that it doesnt deserve to be played. to that point, everything else you say sounds like a mountainload of hypocrisy that I neednt be bothered to respond to each point individually.

None of you say it, but you dont have to flat out say it for the message to get across quite clearly.