N-air NEGATHREAD: Nair is too good (new combos!)

[Supermodel From Paris]

​

Nair is for more than great legs!​

NOTE: No matter how this thread is arranged it is going to be a nightmare to read. Get used to it!​

Table of Contents:

1. Introduction
2. General Combos
3. Character-Specific Combos

1. Introduction​

Thanks to Snakeee and noradseven, huge thread contributors.

Nair is one of the coolest moves in existance. It has a few very interesting properties, first being the weird angles it can shoot your opponent in, next being that it never decays (and does not refresh other moves), and third being that it has actual hitstun, which we will be learning to abuse in this thread to levels most ZSS mains haven't experimented with yet.

Nair has two hitbox parts. The first one and most commonly-used hitbox is the one that exists in front of her. It sends the opponent forward at a rather weird angle that doesn't combo into many moves at high percentages. It's very useful at low percentages, especially on floaty or light characters.

The second hitbox part and most obscure one is the hitbox that appears behind ZSS. This hitbox is less uesful than the other two in general, but does have some cool spacing and comboing applications, especially on large characters. That will be discussed in depth in this thread.

When the second hitbox starts, for a few very short and sweet frames, the second hitbox takes on the properties of the frontal hitbox. This causes the backside of the hitbox to combo in a few very cool ways that will change the way you think about ZSS. This is difficult to do at first, and takes practice. Once mastered, this will change the way you feel about nair and ZSS forever. These special frames cause nair to take on aspects of a "sex kick" as it causes less knockback. Think of it as a flubbed nair from Luigi or Link.

nightwishavx7: Yes Samus has a lot of "flub" on her "backside" XD​

In this thread, I will refer to nair's frontal hitbox as nair1, back as nair2, and the weird bugged frames in nair2 as nair3.

Keep in mind the spacing for nair1 and nair2 are different per character and per combo, so this requires some precision and practice.

2. General Combos
(abridged version!)
These combos are for quick reference purposes if you do not want to read the whole thread. These are not guaranteed to work on every character but should work on most at varying percents! You mwill have to adjust the percent based on which character. If you see mistakes such as things that should be in green but aren't or have combo suggestions or think I should remove something, let me know!​

Green = Escapable

LOW PERCENTS (0-30%, mid weight):
Nair1, jab
Nair1, jabx2, cancel, jabx2, cancel, repeat
Nair1, jabx3 (escapable via smash DI)
Nair1, ftilt
Nair1/Nair3, dtilt
Nair1, dash attack, utilt
Nair2, reverse ftilt
Nair3, dsmash, dsmash, uair/usmash/fair
Nair1/Nair3, dsmash, dsmash, uair/usmash/fair
Nair1/Nair3, dsmash, dsmash, up-b, followup

MID PERCENTS (30-50%)
Nair3, side-b
Nair1/Nair3, parlyzer, dash attack, jab, utilt

HIGH PERCENTS (GENERAL!):
Nair3, uair/smash

3. Chararacter-Specific Combos​

LOW PERCENTS (0-30%):
Nair1, first hit of utilt (wtf)
Nair3, jab, dtilt
Nair3, dsmash, nair2, uair/usmash
Nair3, fair
Nair3, jab
Nair3, jabx2

MID PERCENTS (30-50%)
Nair3, uair/usmash/fair/nair
Nair3, dash attack (will barely hit), uair/utilt

HIGH PERCENTS(20-~120%?):
Nair3, uair


LOW PERCENTS (0-30%):

Nair1, first hit of ultilt (wtf)
Nair1, uair
Nair1, dash attack, utilt
Nair3, utilt
Nair3, jab



LOW PERCENTS (0-30%):
Nair1, fair
Nair1, uair
Nair1, grab
Nair1, ftilt, dash attack, utilt
Nair1, high ftilt
Nair3, dsmash, dsmash, aerial

MID PERCENTS (30-50%)
Nair3, bair (seriously)



LOW PERCENTS (0-50ish%):
Nair1, dtilt, sh nair, fast fall, jab (could be escapable, can someone test please?)
Nair1, dtilt, fair
Nair1/Nair3, utilt


32-39%?:
Nair1, grab


LOW PERCENTS (0-50ish%):
Nair1, dtilt, fair, nair
Nair3, dsmash, dsmash, DOWN-B FOOTSTOOL RETREATING SIDE B OH MY GOD


MID PERCENTS (30-50%)
Nair3, bair
Nair3, uair
Nair3, grab


LOW PERCENTS (0-30ish%):
Got a banana? Toss banana up, nair1 (catches banana), weak glide toss forward, dsmash, dsmash, uair BTW, if anyone ever actually does that, please let me know so I can castrate myself, thanks.

60-65%
Near edge: Nair1/Nair3, down-b spike?


LOW PERCENTS (0-30%):
Nair1, dtilt, aerial
Nair1, grab
Nair2, pivot grab (awesome)
Nair2, fsmash (hahaha)
Nair3, utilt
Nair3, dtilt, uair

MID PERCENTS (30-60%):
Nair1, fsmash (actually very useful)
Nair1, down-b, footstool retreating side-b


60-65%
Near edge: Nair1/Nair3, down-b spike



LOW PERCENTS (0-30%):
Nair3, grab, release, aerial (too ****ing good)

MID PERCENTS (30-60%):
Nair2, pivot grab, release, aerial (again, too ****ing good)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

LOW PERCENTS (0-30%):
Nair1/Nair3, utilt, aerial
Nair3, paralyzer, side b
Nair3, grab
Nair3, jab, utilt, nair, fast fall, jab, grab

MID PERCENTS (30-70%):
Nair1, uair


LOW PERCENTS (0-30%):
Nair1, utilt (can be done so that first hit only hits if you prefer)
Nair1, jab, dtilt
Nair2, pivot grab
Nair3, grab
Nair3, jab, utilt
Nair3, Dsmash, Nair3, Footstool, Dair, Usmash

MID PERCENTS (30-70%):
Near edge: Nair3, down-b spike


LOW PERCENTS (10-30%):
Nair3, Paralyzer, utilt/side-b/grab
Nair3, jabx2

:shiek:
LOW PERCENTS (0-30%):
Nair3, utilt
Nair3, jab
Nair3, dtilt

MID PERCENTS (30-70%):
Nair3, Paralyzer, dash attack, utilt
Nair3, paralyzer, dash cancel, jab


LOW PERCENTS (0-30%):
Nair1, grab (perfect setup for chain grab)


LOW PERCENTS (0-30%):
Nair1/Nair3, utilt
Nair1, uair
Nair3, side-b

MID PERCENTS (30-70%):
Nair3, grab


LOW PERCENTS (0-30%):
Nair1, first hit of utilt
Nair2, pivot grab
Nair3, utilt
Nair3, uair
Nair3, grab
Nair3, jab, grab

MID PERCENTS (30-70%):
On edge: Nair3, dsmash, down-b spike


... i mean,
ZSS can't be combo'd using much of this. Down b escapes anything but low percent nair1->jab kind of stuff and, oh, hey, look, nair 3 doesn't actually work on ZSS. It can't hit her. Fancy that. Moving on!



No go here, either, for obvious reasons. If you can hit them both at early percents, you can do nair3, dsmash chains. That's about it, though.


LOW PERCENTS (0-30%):
Nair1, first hit of utilt (wtf is this)
Nair3, footstool, dair, side-b
Nair1, grab

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

LOW PERCENTS (0-30%):
Nair3, utilt
Nair3, paralyzer, dtilt, hyphen smash

MID PERCENTS (30-60%):
Nair1, dash attack, jab/utilt
Nair1, fair
Nair3, grab


LOW PERCENTS (0-30%):
Nair1/Nair3, utilt, aerial

MID PERCENTS (30-60%):
Nair1/Nair3, uair
Nair1, dash attack, jab/jabx2 cancel/jabx3 (escapable via smash DI)
Nair3, paralyzer, grab/ftilt


LOW PERCENTS (0-30%):
Nair1, dtilt, uair
Nair1, dtilt, fair, fastfall DI forward, jab
Nair1, dtilt, nair1, fastfall, ftilt
Nair3, utilt
Nair3, grab

MID PERCENTS (30-60%):
Nair1, usmash
Nair3, pivot bair (lol, hard)


LOW PERCENTS (0-30%):
Nair1, dtilt, uair, uair
Nair3, grab
Nair3, utilt

MID PERCENTS (30-60%):
Nair3, Nair1, dash cancel, jab?


LOW PERCENTS (0-30%):
Nair1, jabx3 (not escapable?)
Nair1/Nair3, dsmash (leads to chain)
Nair2, pivot dsmash
Nair3, utilt


LOW PERCENTS (0-30%):
Nair1, dtilt, usmash
Nair3, jabx3 (not escapable?)
Nair3, dsmash (leads to chain)
Nair3, dsmash, nair3, dsmash, dsmash, aerial


LOW PERCENTS (0-30%):
Nair3, jabx3 (not escapable?)
Nair3, dsmash (leads to chain)
Nair3, dsmash, nair1/nair3, dsmash, dsmash, aerial

MID PERCENTS (30-60%):
Nair1, dash attack, utilt/usmash


LOW PERCENTS (0-30%):
Nair1/Nair3, utilt
Nair1/Nair3, dtilt, uair, uair
Nair3, grab

MID PERCENTS (20-60%):
Nair3, utilt/usmash

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

LOW PERCENTS (0-30%):
Nair3, utilt
Nair3, usmash
Nair3, grab

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

reserved... ban meta knight...

 

[noradseven]

This thread instantly loses 1 point cause it wasn't called the n-air NEGATHREAD mod fix this please

Also needs more general combos, here let me help out.

Nair1 or nair3, f-air or u-air.

At midish percents on large or medium-heavy weight characters, double dsmash, shorthop neutral air 3, u-air/f-air/b-air .

No really man general stuff that works on large number of people needs to be on the top then the exceptions and specific stuff.

Don't get your hopes up too much though people, its just another trick in the trade, and cannot be spammed, but its good to know. Basically n-air is a melee style hit you have a decent amount of time to do whatever it is you want to do to win.

Also brawl plus bonus n-air combos into itself, seriously this is one of the reasons why I hate brawl+, short hopped fast falls n-airs will combo into themselves into a down B, spike it just dumb.

 

[sasook]

Umm I don't have much to contribute atm, but shouldn't Faded get a mention? He's been the only ZSS who's been using nair wayyy before the rest of us.

 

[noradseven]

Umm I don't have much to contribute atm, but shouldn't Faded get a mention? He's been the only ZSS who's been using nair wayyy before the rest of us.

Well Snakeee and SFP tested all the stuff, and while I don't go to many tounies I have been using neutral air for a while I used to think it was her best move, and I already knew most of the more general combos, and some neutral-air to d-smash links, and these guys finally investigated, and were like ohhh **** he was telling the truth. plus being a horrible nerd I helped explain where the hitbox's where on this move, Im not really sure about the credit, I mean Faded might be like me and go duh isn't this common knowledge.


Also in case anyone is wondering why the center hit box or n-air3 seems to combo so much, it is because it doesn't actually have a different amount of hit stun on it the main difference is the fact that its active frames start a few frames later, and you arn't affected giving you an even larger frame advantage I think its 2-3 more frames (1/30-1/20sec) which is a pretty big deal.

Theoretically this means n-air 2 should be even better but it seems to have weird properties when you connect on it, and its hitbox means its a tricky hit on anyone not huge.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Umm I don't have much to contribute atm, but shouldn't Faded get a mention? He's been the only ZSS who's been using nair wayyy before the rest of us.

It's not like I was inspired to test this stuff via Faded's use of nair. It's really cool that he was using it though.

And norad, I had no idea there was a "center hitbox" (for those curious, there isn't actually a center hibox, it's a weird part/timing of the back one) until last night when I first started making this thread. I actually had to start over because I realized it halfway through the DK stuff and was like "omg."

Nair3 is really freaking good.

 

[Nefarious B]

I never realized it was such a useful/versatile move, I've been using it mostly as a replacement for fair.

Things that are sticking out to me at a glance:

Nair 1 outranges Wario horizontally, and since it combos into a grab that is a grab release infinite setup.

Nair 1 combos into Dsmash, that's a setup for our infinite on ROB and dsmash chain on Fox. It also is a setup for all the weird footstool combos Shadow reported before we found the ROB infinite.

I'm having a hard time seeing how nair3 combos into sideb, just visually since I won't be able to test til later this week. If it hits upwards how would it combo into sideb, unless this has rediculous hitstun advantage that I'm just not seeing?

Same deal with the nair3 to paralyzer combo. Maybe a diagram of nair's different hitboxes and trajectories would help the newbs (me) understand better.

And it's interesting that ZSS seems to be becoming one of the most technical characters in the game, with the buffered CG, infinites and weird footstool dair glitches, and we have true combos. I think I like it

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The trajectory at low percents with nair3 is actually more forward than up. It changes pretty dramatically at high percents. If you hit someone with nair 3 (that is, the back part of the hitbox closest to ZSS) at low percents, it forces the target to land in front of you. They literally flip over you and land in front. The higher the percentage, the more forward they fly. Once past like 60%ish? on lightweights, they start to fly more upward. It's a little weird. You'll need to practice to get how it feels.

Snakeee told me last night that Wario can bike out of the grab-release and that it's not a true combo. I was actually under the imrpession that they could not bike out of the infinite grab-release, but could bike out of the grab-release-dsmash-grab.

 

[Nefarious B]

Phantom claimed a couple weeks ago that he could get out of the dsmash because of SA at the start of the bike, but a soley grab chain shouldn't be affected by that SA, meaning unless they know something we don't then yes it's a legit (slow as ****) infinite.

And thanks for the info, that makes more sense and I'm pretty pumped to try this out now, as my brother was just pointing out yesterday that my game's getting kinda stale.

 

[Honeythief]

About stale, isn't it this move that always does the same amount of damage and never degrades? I read the whole post but I couldn't find that mentioned.


Also, are there videos available for a few of these combos as examples?


Apart from that, great thread, very interesting. I rarely saw this move played much before but I guess it will be now.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

@Nefarious B:
I actually disagree that the game is getting stale. There's nothing wrong with perfecting existing techniques. Matches are so much more fast-paced and entertaining to watch than they were a year ago. By the way, never ever disregard little discoveries. Some day down the line those might make or break another technique, because the metagame is cumulative. Are we likely to discover the next wave dash at this point? Maybe; but probably not. If we do, great, but until then, the game is much more enjoyable when you stop expecting it to turn on it's head tomorrow.

@Honeythief:
Yes, n-air never stales or degrades. It actually never enters the "stale moves" table or whatever it's called, meaning other moves don't refresh when you use it.

As for videos, I don't have any but if you get some of them working you're more than welcome to make them.

 

[Nefarious B]

Heh no I mean MY game's getting stale, as in I'm getting too predictable and using essentially the same strategy against all characters, and things like this can help me switch my style up.

I actually think we've had a lot of stuff going on recently, and even if it was getting stale I wouldn't really know since I'm still catching up compared to others (only really started getting competitive in November).

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Sorry dude my mistake. I misread.

 

[lil cj]

Nair can also KO (I think Nair 3)
at mid high percentages...

i played around with it a little in training mode
If this is legit ZSS has a never get stale KO move!

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Nair can also KO (I think Nair 3)
at mid high percentages...

i played around with it a little in training mode
If this is legit ZSS has a never get stale KO move!

Wait... what percentage are we talking? I went all the way up to about 130% during testing of nair3 and I don't recall it coming even close to killing.

 

[lil cj]

Wait... what percentage are we talking? I went all the way up to about 130% during testing of nair3 and I don't recall it coming even close to killing.

About 130-150%
is when I KO'd
Maybe it was nair 1
But it has to be off stage
used the same way MK uses his nair to KO
but closer to edge of the screen

 

[sasook]

More of a gimp move, then.

 

[noradseven]

Really there isn't a third hitbox, ohh well I thought that must of been why that happened ohh well.

My common setup for starting the move, is a shorthop fastfall b-air, on block, jump over oppenent head fastfall n-air, its pretty safe and why I used n-air because its safer than f-air in this case and it keeps my game changing, plus it normally did a few hits in combos and stuff, and it was one of the few times I would actually use jab, only I normally did the run uptilt thing instead.


This move shouldn't kill, except if your being a ****, but it does have hilariously good priority which is my standard use for it winning an air fight that f-air/backair would lose, and because of its hit stun alot of people buffer dumb moves.

 

[sasook]

Is it priority, or is it just a disjoint?

 

[ph00tbag]

This move does seem to actually have special priority. I think I have seen it cancel out other aerials, which is just weird and bizarre. I'd have to double check. I know that it completely outprioritizes Pikachu's t-jolt. That part is pretty stupid.

The think to keep in mind about nair is that it has a LOT of hit-lag, but not much shieldlag or shieldstun, so it is pretty unsafe on block, unless you do it retreating against characters with poor grab range. Don't even bother using it on Olimar, for instance.

 

[Nefarious B]

Question, do you need to fastfall autocancel the nair for these combos, the nair1s?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Question, do you need to fastfall autocancel the nair for these combos, the nair1s?

Some you do, some you don't. Most should be fastfall'd. I should really clarify that...

 

[Wenis of Lore]

This move does seem to actually have special priority. I think I have seen it cancel out other aerials, which is just weird and bizarre. I'd have to double check. I know that it completely outprioritizes Pikachu's t-jolt. That part is pretty stupid.

The think to keep in mind about nair is that it has a LOT of hit-lag, but not much shieldlag or shieldstun, so it is pretty unsafe on block, unless you do it retreating against characters with poor grab range. Don't even bother using it on Olimar, for instance.

what about out-prioritizing zeldas air-boot or R.O.B.'s N-air? those are killers for me....

 

[sasook]

I have a question. Is nair a bad move to buffer another aerial or something? After I use it I feel like there's a lag time when I can't do anything - jump, aerial, dodge, nothing.

 

[Hence]

Are you sure N-Air's hitstun is great enough?
Opponents can't buffer airdodges?

Landing a N-Air is awfully difficult...to be honest, I'd rather U-Air juggle.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I just updated the OP with a more detailed explaination of what is technically happening to cause nair3. Read it over and things will make a little more sense. I should be finished updating the character combo list by tomorrow.

 

[oOJaseOo]

Could you possibly make a video showing nair's possibilities/combos?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Could you possibly make a video showing nair's possibilities/combos?

No. I don't have equipment for that.

 

[oOJaseOo]

No. I don't have equipment for that.

oh ok just wondering

 

[noradseven]

Are you sure N-Air's hitstun is great enough?
Opponents can't buffer airdodges?

Landing a N-Air is awfully difficult...to be honest, I'd rather U-Air juggle.

That's part of the reason why I am kinda talking it down a bit, because its not going to consistently hit, it has some uses for pressure and stuff, but most of the time it connects aka not used in shield pressure is in the air, and if it does connect on the ground its normally n-air1. Its still a good move for the extra shield hitstun, and it hits quite a bit in the air because of its plain stupid priority, and nice range, but its slow startup makes it more of a prediction or pressure thing.

It can combo in midair too sometimes especially against fastfallers, but its more difficult and very specific so its more of a make up your own stuff move, like p.much all of brawl.

edit: Incase anyone missed it the easiest 3 connects are n-air->f-air, n-air->jab, n-air->running attack

 

[Nefarious B]

Yeah after testing this stuff out today I can say that while it sounds super sexy it's pretty **** hard to pull off on a decent opponent. I was trying to get the nair1 to downsmash combo and it seems that you have to hit the opponent very close to your body, not at the end of the whip, meaning that if they are attacking at all you'll usually get hit out of it.

I still think this has potential, just not as much as I originally thought. Thanks for all the data and work SMP

 

[Nefarious B]

Sorry for the double post but it's a day later and I've got an idea:

If nair3 to dsmash is a legit combo, what's stopping you from doing a nair3 dsmash nair3 dsmash chain across the stage? Atleast until 60ish % when the trajectory of nair3 gets more vertical.

Or you could even go nair3 dsmash pivot nair 3 etc so you don't hit the ledge. Seems like it could be dead sexy if it worked.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Sorry for the double post but it's a day later and I've got an idea:

If nair3 to dsmash is a legit combo, what's stopping you from doing a nair3 dsmash nair3 dsmash chain across the stage? Atleast until 60ish % when the trajectory of nair3 gets more vertical.

Or you could even go nair3 dsmash pivot nair 3 etc so you don't hit the ledge. Seems like it could be dead sexy if it worked.

Nothing. It works on some characters but I haven't gotten around to putting it up because I was afraid it would be disproven.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

double post

 

[Nefarious B]

I tried it out, it seems at low percents dsmash might not last long enough to run infront and pull of another nair3, seems more promising at mid percentages. However, I was havin a hard time hitting with nair3 and I may have actually been using nair1 o.O

The hitbox is tricky for me to pull off, where on her body/at what time in the move is it so I can get a more accurate mental picture?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I tried it out, it seems at low percents dsmash might not last long enough to run infront and pull of another nair3, seems more promising at mid percentages. However, I was havin a hard time hitting with nair3 and I may have actually been using nair1 o.O

The hitbox is tricky for me to pull off, where on her body/at what time in the move is it so I can get a more accurate mental picture?

It's the first few frames of nair2. on her back side but very close to her body.

 

[Nefarious B]

Okay

In Yoshi, Diddy, and a few other character specifics you have this:
60-65%
Near edge: Nair1/Nair3, down-b spike?

So if you weren't near the edge is this a guaranteed down b kick instead? That move has good knockback, I was thinking if there was no chance of punishment you could use it when you were close to the end but not close enough to spike, it could set up a nice edgeguarding situation on Diddy who is somewhat susceptible to it.