N-air is Ganon's 2nd best aerial.

[A2ZOMG]

My point was simply that you are argueing impossibilites... what i got from your argument was that (and this is obviously a very brief summary) if you play a perfect player (Top of the meta-game) it is next to impossible to land Dair. therefore making Nair a more viable move... thats it in a nutshell, Amirite?

Reaction time is 10-12 frames, which is much too fast for Ganon's D-air or Flame Choke to be viable against conservative play.

What I'm saying is that its not reasonable to base this on prefection... if we ranked how good all the moves in the game were against 8 frame reaction time, half of everyone's moves would never hit because in THEORY the perfect player would see that coming and Spot dodge/roll/avoid/ect... useing that same train of thought would declare almost all the smash attacks in the game void, useless... How can it be possible that at the top of the meta-game (I'm talking Ally and M2K lvl) anyone gets hit with a smash attack... Is it possible that the BEST brawl player in the world could make a mistake? HOLY FK YES!

Playing "perfectly" against Ganondorf is in fact almost possible, because his options are so terrible and limited and easily punished by defensive play that there is nothing he can viably do. Why limit yourself with slow and easily avoided options? If you're playing someone who knows the matchup, you should almost never be using Flame Choke or D-air unless they are playing as a comparably terrible character.

Everytime they get hit they ARE making a mistake, they could have done countless other options at that one point in time instead of "insert action here". perfection doesnt exist, argueing move viability based on something that is not possible is, IMO, ********..

<3

It's not ******** in the case of the worst characters of Brawl. Ganon is in fact so slow that his options are almost always avoidable on reaction through conservative play.

Fonz, I never said Ally played terribly. I said he didn't bother playing the matchup correctly since you don't have to do that to win against Ganondorf. Were he to camp a lot more and play a much slower poke and spacing game, you would be much more limited and far more likely to be unable to land hits in general.

 

[@HomE]

@A2Z

Quite on the contrary, I have to ask that of you, since my arguments are very consistent and based on solid data and observation of options, while all your arguments are based on what Ganon can do against a player who doesn't do things or react properly.

remember typing that?


Solid data.. ok you have Ganons frame data, other theeeen that... wanna cite your references for the "Perfect gamer" reaction time, cause while these number are thrown around like ****ing paper planes, I'm calling bull****...

You claim my arguments are based on people who arnt doing things perfectly... How about your arguments are based on IMPOSSIBILITES.

Just to clear up what Impossible means i consulted the dictionary

im⋅pos⋅si⋅ble  /ɪmˈpɒsəbəl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [im-pos-uh-buhl]

1. not possible; unable to be, exist, happen, etc.
2. unable to be done, performed, effected, etc.: an impossible assignment.
3. incapable of being true, as a rumor.

when you say "insert 13 frame move here" will never hit "insert champion gamer w/ 10 frame reaction time"

Ill give you an example of what i read that as...

If you were to shoot a bullet at a bird it would never hit that bird because he has a bullet shield of justice..

impossible =/= real life
Fact =/= fiction

keep them apart PLOX



Edit: <3

 

[fonzi21]

Fonz, I never said Ally played terribly. I said he didn't bother playing the matchup correctly since you don't have to do that to win against Ganondorf. Were he to camp a lot more and play a much slower poke and spacing game, you would be much more limited and far more likely to be unable to land hits in general.

But he didn't therefore my attacks worked, and until I run into someone who can react to every single one of my attacks I will continue to use Dair over Nair.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Basically the same stuff D-air can set up. It puts them in a bad position that you can follow up with easily. Keep in mind, D-air's combos are perfectly escapable on reaction too.

@A2Z:

Honestly, I don't believe that Nair Combos are much more formidable than Dair Combos, although land a Dair can be "difficult" sometimes. The fact that the first hit of Nair put the opponent in a bad position doesn't mean that you can perform a guaranteed Follow-Up like Dair -> Uair/Usmash. You have to remember that we are talking about vBrawl Ganondorf's moveset (Nair in that case) and I meant that vBrawl doesn't have enough Hitsun to perform guaranteed combos.

Dude, one more time, I'm not criticizing you, If you like Nair... I see no problem. I'm just trying to understand the good things that Nair can provide beyond Defensive Issues.

@Fonz / @HomE, I've to ask for your help... What combos we can do with Nair ? I'm talking about strong combos.

Just to clear up what Impossible means i consulted the dictionary

im⋅pos⋅si⋅ble  /ɪmˈpɒsəbəl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [im-pos-uh-buhl]

1. not possible; unable to be, exist, happen, etc.
2. unable to be done, performed, effected, etc.: an impossible assignment.
3. incapable of being true, as a rumor.

when you say "insert 13 frame move here" will never hit "insert champion gamer w/ 10 frame reaction time"

Ill give you an example of what i read that as...

If you were to shoot a bullet at a bird it would never hit that bird because he has a bullet shield of justice..

impossible =/= real life
Fact =/= fiction

keep them apart PLOX



Edit: <3

This **** made me LOL.

 

[@HomE]

@SBF

I dont use Nair for combos really at all... the closest i come is FH Nair -> FH Nair -> SideB (I took that 100% from Ijosh) but the Nairs are only really used for Mindgames because its AC on FH most people anticipate lag after the Nair but you can get an Aerudo off before the second one hits the ground if done right...

other then that my only use for Nair is breaking combos when im above someone i FF Nair and it usually can get me to the ground so i can resume Dair'n the **** out of them

<3

 

[A2ZOMG]

Honestly, I don't believe that Nair Combos are much more formidable than Dair Combos, although land a Dair can be "difficult" sometimes. The fact that the first hit of Nair put the opponent in a bad position doesn't mean that you can perform a guaranteed Follow-Up like Dair -> Uair/Usmash. You have to remember that we are talking about vBrawl Ganondorf's moveset (Nair in that case) and I meant that vBrawl doesn't have enough Hitsun to perform guaranteed combos.

D-air ->U-air/U-smash is in fact airdodgeable.

Hitstun on moves that induce tumble does not exist. On any move that induces tumble, you can airdodge within 13 frames of being hit, and attack within 25 frames of being hit. Stun time releated to knocback distance only affects when you can jump or do specials out of stun.

@Home, trust me. Average reaction time is around 10-12 frames. Once you understand that, it becomes very clear why Ganondorf has so much trouble doing anything at all. besides the fact that his frame advantages all suck except on moves with terrible hitboxes.

Anyone who really wants to play against Ganon correctly can very easily avoid almost his entire moveset on reaction.

I'm not telling you to stop using D-air against people who don't know what they're doing. I'm just making it clear that it's an overrated option.

 

[Z1GMA]

Ok, mmm...
All this talk about Nair made me mess around with it and try out some odd stuff.
I noticed that you can do some pretty twisted **** with it.
Situational, but twisted.
*Not saying anything more atm*

Speaking of "combos":
Dair is better than Nair when it comes to 'starting' combos.
Nair on the other hand, exel in linking other combos together (getting those extra %'s in).
^ These are two entierly different things, so stop arguing about "which one is better at comboing".

 

[Big O]

I think A2Z's point was that if the opponent does nothing but react to Ganon's approach that his most of his moves (which includes Dair) aren't viable. People don't really take matches vs. Ganon that seriously anyway so I think it's a moot point. I've never really seen or played anyone who did nothing but react (lol maybe Olimar's...) so it doesn't really apply.

When they actually try to be aggressive or you preemptively do it at the right moment, Dair becomes a viable move. Its viability might depend on things like baiting or aggression from the opponent, but I think it's safe to say that goes on in any given match you play. I find Dair a lot more useful than Nair because with a little anticipation Dair just seems to have a better average payoff than Nair. Dair is also an effective answer to some grounded approaches due to the fairly instantaneous morphing of his body (if you pause the game right after you Dair he looks like MK with arms lol) which avoids many moves.

 

[Superspright]

He's right. I like to believe I can really win with Ganon, but if someone plays purely on reacting to me...I can't do anything. I may get off a few lucky hits here and there, but the amount of punishment that I can be given is ridiculous. Plus, a lot of characters just need to jump down and let me grab them with my up-b then proceed to quickly use a nair to gimp me.

 

[PK-ow!]

Ok, mmm...
All this talk about Nair made me mess around with it and try out some odd stuff.
I noticed that you can do some pretty twisted **** with it.
Situational, but twisted.
*Not saying anything more atm*

Looks like it's time for another "Z1gma combo."

Dammit, Zig, we can't use that name for everything.

How about we add letters to the name corresponding to their order of discovery? No.... no remove letters, since we started with Z1gman...:


Z1gman combo, Z1gma combo, Z1gm combo, and eventually Z1g combo ?



There really is no argument, though. The moment I realized that I was getting ***** solely because I was hopping around with DAirs without good reason, is when I started dying a lot slower.

What I don't see either, unfortunately, is NAir's virtue on shield. Yes, it lingers... but Ganon's air time doesn't. You have to commit to the NAir extremely early on short hop if you want the second hit box to even come out.

... which goes toward the Full Hopping I think about a lot...


*~*~*~

@Superspright: Yeah, it's because... Ganon doesn't have anything to create inevitability. With a non-flawed character, an opponent who isn't pressuring you actively should be able to be beaten simply by chipping away at them, or setting up traps, or by rock/paper/scissoring high reward options on them without having to worry about disruption.

... but Ganon can't do those.

I suppose all you can do is walk up to people like SF's Zangief and threaten the grab that's on par with the average spot dodge (the slower-than-2-20/22 ones), mixing in backdash and SHAD and stuff.

 

[Superspright]

What I do when my opponent won't approach/pressure me I have to do shads and weird stuff to FORCE them to do SOMETHING. It just sucks. People who know what to do realize that all you really have to do is be even more patient. You will always beat the Ganondorf that way.

I mean, if you guys think dair is so good then try it on a luigi who has a brain. Combo until 50. Wait for the dair--PS it [so easy] then it is just a matter of up-bing. Stock. Rinse repeat.

 

[Big O]

Well if all they ever do is react accordingly to Ganon's approach then yes he is right (as I said in my post). However, I've yet to see a game where they never approach and only react. Another thing is that at some point they can and will react incorrectly. It might be reacting to nothing, a feint, something unpredictable, or mistakes due to a lack of patience/too much hesitation. Just like how they can spot dodge your flame choke on reaction, they can spot dodge your flame choke from 1/3 across from FD on reaction and get grabbed because the they spot dodged too early.

Even if they have an average reaction time of 10 frames, you can't overlook the fact that it is indeed an average. Even assuming they react as soon as the move starts, (not every move is as noticeable as flame choke on startup) one time they may perfect shield your jab and another time they may be a few frames too slow to perfect shield your charge release Fsmash. Yeah they may not have to perfect shield your Fsmash to punish it but I'm sure you guys get my point. They can't just spot dodge and perfect shield anything you do reliably. It is really effective but it isn't foolproof with good reaction time alone.

 

[Z1GMA]

Looks like it's time for another "Z1gma combo."

Dammit, Zig, we can't use that name for everything.

How about we add letters to the name corresponding to their order of discovery? No.... no remove letters, since we started with Z1gman...:

Z1gman combo, Z1gma combo, Z1gm combo, and eventually Z1g combo ?

I like adding whole words :}

 

[thexsunrosered]

I like adding whole words :}

we could add numbers, like Z1gman Combo, Z2gman Combo, Z3gman Combo

or just not name it at all lol

 

[Z1GMA]

we could add numbers, like Z1gman Combo, Z2gman Combo, Z3gman Combo

or just not name it at all lol

You surprised me, Red8.
I was pretty sure your suggestion would be topping the combo-names with "mature" words
:ganon grin:

 

[thexsunrosered]

You surprised me, Red8.
I was pretty sure your suggestion would be topping the combo-names with "mature" words
:ganon grin:

well I mean, I wanted to call the original Z1gman combo the Teabag, for obvious reasons, but it didn't pass lol