N-air is Ganon's 2nd best aerial.

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Hmm what would it be called if you Daired them?


Double Footed?

 

[Bahamut777]

Hmm what would it be called if you Daired them?


Double Footed?

STOMPT! Ò_ó

Man... I love this word! <3

 

[Z1GMA]

Hmm what would it be called if you Daired them?


Double Footed?

Twinkle toes.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Twinkle Toes hahaha

 

[Bahamut777]

Twinkle toes.

Z1GMA is sooooooooooooooooooooooooo manly for this thread... x]

 

[PhantomX]

Zigma, I think Bahamut has a crush on you.

 

[Noobicidal]

This could get interesting.

*goes back to reading a generic BL manga*

 

[Bahamut777]

Zigma, I think Bahamut has a crush on you.

Dam*! I've been caught! D:

 

[SmashBrosForce]

U-air
N-air
B-air
F-air
D-air

D-air is mediocre. You can never actually use this attack unless your opponent screws up (well, you have to call screwups in general with Ganon). D-air can NEVER be used offensively in any shape or form, and it's outprioritized easily by so much stuff that just has more range. The only time D-air is "good" is against people who roll forwards a lot, and out of Flame Choke (although that requires prediction). Oh and of course, spiking with it.

Dude, your explanation makes sense, but I have to say that I really don't care if Dair isn't good to be used as an approach or offensive issues. I use Dair a lot in my matches and I think Dair shouldn't be ranked 5th in your "Best Ganon's Aerial Moves List". I'm just surprised with you.

In my opinion, Dair is a very important move which provides a High Risk/High Reward Kill, the Spike. I don't know if you're a good Spiker, but only those who love to Spike someone (@HomE and I), know the importance of Dair. Also, Z1GMA is a Formidable Edge-Guarder and Spiker, IMO.

I'm not criticizing you. It's just my opinion.

 

[A2ZOMG]

None of Ganon's aerials are useless.

I'm saying that D-air is in fact the least useful. If you have an opportunity to land it...go for it. It does 23 damage. It's horribly impractical in terms of hitbox and speed however, meaning good players can easily avoid it. Spiking really predictable recoveries is satisfying, but 90% of the time a U-air is much easier to land and almost always gets the job done just as well except against like...Snake.

F-air provides important spacing options that Ganondorf can't cover with any other attack, which is why I consider it better than D-air. Against a good G&W, how are you going to feasibly land anything else?

 

[PhantomX]

Dair is probably 3rd, imo. It's more usable than bair, which has a terrible hitbox if you're vsing meduim > small characters, or characters with a good crouch. Fair is the worst. Regardless of whether or not it's hte best option in a certain matchup, it doesn't stop it from being un-autocancelable and thus a threat/danger to use under all circumstances.

 

[@HomE]

A2ZOMG, what about his Utilt-Aerial, that move is wack..

srsly tho...

Dair>Fair>Nair

I dunno.. while its true i proabaly dont play at the same level as some of you, I have a VERY good understanding of this game by now.. Dair is such a part of MY metagame i just cant say that its worse then Fair, Bair, or Nair.. Dair can be used to Bait people, mindgames, spacing, SPIKING, its a very versatile move IMO. I'm not trying to start an argument about what aerial is TEH PWNIST, I'm just saying how i use the move and why i find it so useful.

I dont really need to list a bunch of neato things about Dair because almost everyone here knows almost everything i know (I'm assuming).

I'll just give a few example:

Things like messing up a thunderstorm (moving away from the opponent!) you might eat a DA or take some minor %, but now your opponent has it in your head that they can punish your Dair, which leads to ****..

Useing TSing to space my Ftilts and Fsmashes has worked wonders for me, TS away from any approach followed by a Jab or Ftilt.. besides Uair (which is Ganon's best aerial, no question), Dair seems to be the most versatile aerial IMO.

besides projectiles.... TS (away from the opponent) -> buffed Ftilt, seems preeeetty **** safe...

No?

 

[A2ZOMG]

People who are actually good don't get hit or for that matter mindgamed by D-air unless they screw up a juggle attempt or something. Or if it's wifi.

Well to be fair, anyone who's really good can feasibly attempt to NOT GET HIT by Ganon, but in all seriousness, landing D-air is extremely difficult against good players. N-air is a LOT more useful because it's a lot more viable for creating openings in general.

 

[@HomE]

Well if your assuming your going to be getting juggled around like a pinball... then yes, i agree a FF Nair will be a better combo breaker; but I dont assume I will be loosing before the match is started (its called [false] confidence).

Heres a decent example

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BayN8GXr1rw

RayKalm, a very talented Ganon main, arguments can be made he's the best in North America. In that match Kalm's use of Dair is very similar to what i was talking about in my previous posts. Setting up the Fsmash, Baiting, never approaching with Dair (very important)... and he seems to land a decent amount of Dairs vs whats seems to be a competent Fox...

ANOTHER fantastic thing about Dair, is that @ 0%, if you land a Dair your opponent is almost guarateed 40 - 50%.... so many great follow-ups, it combos into itself, Uair, and Bair...

Man the more i talk about Dair the more i like it... IMO Dair is Ganon's bread, butter, meat and potatoes..

I'm enjoying this discussion

 

[Z1GMA]

People who are actually good don't get hit or for that matter mindgamed by D-air unless they screw up a juggle attempt or something. Or if it's wifi.

Well to be fair, anyone who's really good can feasibly attempt to NOT GET HIT by Ganon, but in all seriousness, landing D-air is extremely difficult against good players. N-air is a LOT more useful because it's a lot more viable for creating openings in general.

@A2ZOMG: So, what do 'you' use Dair for? Baiting & Spiking only?

-------------------------------

EDIT:

Stomp OoS is too good when it comes to punishing laggy attacks.
And its range is pretty impressive.

While taking a big hit on your shield, buffer a SH Dair OoS (do not drop you shield) and then immediately manouver Ganon towards your opponent.
^Very common knowledge, yeah, I know.

ALSO:
If you're good at predicting and/or manipulating, read their spotdodge and voila~... Punish it with a 23% Stomp.

+ Dair ***** so, so many grounded A-attacks which aren't highly disjointed;
jabs/tilts/dash attacks.
For them, it's like throwing a punch into a brickwall.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

@A2ZOMG: So, what do 'you' use Dair for? Baiting & Spiking only?

Taking advantage of this quote... If you allow me.

I thought really interesting this question. A2ZOMG you should rethink about Dair, because you are excluding from your gameplay with Ganon a move which provide important things. I thought interesting the way you talked about Dair because I did not expect that you would say relatively bad things about Dair. You said that Fair is more useful than Dair. >_> Fair is a ****ing awesome move (Performance, Knockback, Damage), but Fair has a huge lag and can't be autocanceled and this make me very sad. Another important thing, Nair is still appropriate for Defensive issues, fortunately or not.

I totally agree with @HomE's explanations. He said everything.

I won't never delete Dair of my gameplay with Ganondorf and What would I do without Spike (Dair Propertie) ?

@HomE, as you said once... "Spike is my Blood" and I have to say that Spike is my Blood too and represents almost 60%-70% of my gameplay. That's it man.

 

[@HomE]

SBF

your posts are soo epic, honestly the bad english makes it alot more entertaining for me to read, im being 100% serious, keep it up.

 

[Bahamut777]

as you said once... "Spike is my Blood" and I have to say that Spike is my Blood too and represents almost 60%-70% of my gameplay. That's it man.

I'm live proof of this... =_=

ah Z1g... unfortunately, Ganon's DAir hitbox ends at his chest, not his beard, like we all would like it. I've already made serous testing with it... <=(

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Dair is probably 3rd, imo. It's more usable than bair, which has a terrible hitbox if you're vsing meduim > small characters, or characters with a good crouch. Fair is the worst. Regardless of whether or not it's hte best option in a certain matchup, it doesn't stop it from being un-autocancelable and thus a threat/danger to use under all circumstances.

BAir, useless, really? I find it more usable than DAir and NAir, the hitbox may not be good, but the move itself feels very safe.

 

[PhantomX]

I didn't say it's useless, did I? I just said it's not as good as the other three moves b/c of it's lack of versatility due to a funky hitbox.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

BAir, useless, really? I find it more usable than DAir and NAir, the hitbox may not be good, but the move itself feels very safe.

Bair is hella safe.

Spamming Retreating auto canceled bairs is ****.

 

[fonzi21]

What is probably most overlooked about this aerial is the fact it lingers, and this makes quite useful for shield poking opponents. That alone makes this aerial a valuable asset that Ganondorf must implement.

If you run into an opponent that is able to tilt his shield. Which most should be able to do then this doesn't help much.

SHFFed N-airs work about as well as a typical spotdodge strategy if you are creative with it, and considering the juggling setup it provides, it's pretty worth getting this aerial in.

Better off using a Dair to hit someone that spotdodges. more damage. can kill. sets up for combo's. or a pivot grab.

the potential for it to work past shields better than anything else Ganondorf can do.

shield poking with Nair is probably not a good option.


Sorry if I seem like a negative person here, but I disagree with some of your statements. It is quick. I use it off the ledge and OOS sometimes against opponents. it stops some combos as well. decent thought put into this idea, but ganon has better options then Nair as an offensive move. It's mainly defense.

Also Dair is not difficult to hit good players with. It's not easy (That's why they are good) but it's not Difficult or impossible. I'm not talking about spiking people. I'm talking about landing Dair period.

 

[PhantomX]

Yeah, it really isn't very good for grounded opponents. It's fine to use it on grounded large guys. I primarily use it for air-to-air combat and defense/combo breaking and gimping as well.

Dair is hard to land on good people b/c they don't spotdodge or roll much, meaning you have to hit them out of moves. I don't use it much against the better players outside of a few attempts at low percents to get quick damage or at high percents to kill.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Taking advantage of this quote... If you allow me.

I thought really interesting this question. A2ZOMG you should rethink about Dair, because you are excluding from your gameplay with Ganon a move which provide important things. I thought interesting the way you talked about Dair because I did not expect that you would say relatively bad things about Dair. You said that Fair is more useful than Dair. >_> Fair is a ****ing awesome move (Performance, Knockback, Damage), but Fair has a huge lag and can't be autocanceled and this make me very sad. Another important thing, Nair is still appropriate for Defensive issues, fortunately or not.

I've never been excluding it from my gameplay. Rather, I use it too much.

The point is good players DON'T GET HIT by this move unless it's in Ganon dittos where all tactics are massively punishable, or against really predictable recoveries. Or if you predict the **** out of someone from Flame Choke, which is just as, if not harder to land against someone who knows how Ganondorf works (yes, Flame Choke is EXTREMELY difficult to land in high level play).

F-air actually hits people, since it covers useful spacing options. Seriously...you won't D-air a good G&W, Metaknight, Peach, etc. You can outspace them with F-airs however.

If you run into an opponent that is able to tilt his shield. Which most should be able to do then this doesn't help much.

If their shield is worn enough, not even tilting it will stop them from being poked by a lingering hitbox.

Better off using a Dair to hit someone that spotdodges. more damage. can kill. sets up for combo's. or a pivot grab.

That doesn't work. You have to PREDICT the spotdodge, and you get punished if they just spotdodge on reaction. If you SCOUT the option by shorthopping and waiting to N-air, that works MUCH better.

Bair is hella safe.

Spamming Retreating auto canceled bairs is ****.

B-air is super predictable, and the autocanceled version basically doesn't hit most of the cast. And of course it's quite punishable when not autocanceled.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Also Dair is not difficult to hit good players with. It's not easy (That's why they are good) but it's not Difficult or impossible. I'm not talking about spiking people. I'm talking about landing Dair period.

I agree with you Fonz. I personally don't think Dair is HARD to land even if you are fighting against a skilled player.



@A2ZOMG,
My question is: You will not use the Dair just because you're fighting against a skilled player ?

As I said in my last post, I don't care if Dair sucks (Range, Durantion and Offensive Issues). One of the good things that I like about Dair is the fact that Dair inflict 23% with a relatively huge knockback and beyond this, it can set up for some brutal combos and it can inflict some Shield Pressure when combined with some Smash/Tilt attacks. Also, Dair has "Shield Breaker" properties IMO and I know you won't break a shield of a skilled player. Although you will probably get punished for using Dair a lot, if you keep trying to use Dair with strategy you can be rewarded for that even fighting against a good opponent.

I won't talk about Dair again because I believe that everything that I said is a common knowledge.

Nair doesn't inflict Shield Pressure as Dair and you can't connect all the hits every time.

>_>

SBF

your posts are soo epic, honestly the bad english makes it alot more entertaining for me to read, im being 100% serious, keep it up.

If you're serious...

Thank you very much brother.

Honestly, I'm surprised right now.

 

[Z1GMA]

Flame Choke is EXTREMELY difficult to land in high level play

It really depends on what character your opponent is using.
I find it near impossible to land a Gerudo on a good MK; while it's easier Vs let's say C.Falcon.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@A2ZOMG,
My question is: You will not use the Dair just because you're fighting against a skilled player ?

I use it too much, and against the people who know what they're doing, they never actually get hit by it, and they can usually punish it with a generic aerial spacer easily if I was too close.

As I said in my last post, I don't care if Dair sucks (Range, Durantion and Offensive Issues). One of the good things that I like about Dair is the fact that Dair inflict 23% with a relatively huge knockback and beyond this, it can set up for some brutal combos and it can inflict some Shield Pressure when combined with some Smash/Tilt attacks. Also, Dair has "Shield Breaker" properties IMO and I know you won't break a shield of a skilled player. Although you will probably get punished for using Dair a lot, if you keep trying to use Dair with strategy you can be rewarded for that even fighting against a good opponent.

Yeah, it's totally not safe on block...and as I was saying...you really are not going to land it against someone who knows what they are doing.

Sure it's fine and dandy against people who aren't that good. **** the **** out of them if they get baited easily. I'm in fact an extremely bait and mindgame oriented player thanks to my time spent using Ganon.

Nair doesn't inflict Shield Pressure as Dair and you can't connect all the hits every time.

N-air lingers, which lets it BYPASS worn shields. That is much more important. Landing the first hit also sets up combos, and generally works longer than D-air since N-air has less knockback. N-air's speed means you get more opportunities to mix up with it when you are doing zoning tricks.

 

[fonzi21]

The point is good players DON'T GET HIT by this move unless it's in Ganon dittos where all tactics are massively punishable, or against really predictable recoveries. Or if you predict the **** out of someone from Flame Choke, which is just as, if not harder to land against someone who knows how Ganondorf works (yes, Flame Choke is EXTREMELY difficult to land in high level play).

Your right good players are less likely to roll or spot dodge, but they still do. It is all dependent on your mix up game. What are you doing to make them want to roll or spot dodge more in your game? How do you force them into rolls, and what can you do to make them start spot dodging. Also Dair is a good way to punish grabs. not just rolls and spot dodges.

I ask myself all the time how can I make my opponent run into move A. Once they figure out how to avoid it will move B now work. Once they figure out move B can move A now work again? If not will move C work? Smash is about limiting your opponents options to the smallest amount possible.

I.E. Move A is Dair, Move B is gerudo, Move C Uair.
Move A punishes there spot dodge. so they start shielding. Move B now works because it grabs shields. they start jumping Move C now works. I know this doesn't cover all options (if they attack if they run away blah blah blah) but it is merely an example.

F-air actually hits people, since it covers useful spacing options. Seriously...you won't D-air a good G&W, Metaknight, Peach, etc. You can outspace them with F-airs however.

Your correct it is tons harder to hit these characters, but once again not impossible. F-air is not your best option for spacing unfortunately.

If their shield is worn enough, not even tilting it will stop them from being poked by a lingering hitbox..

If people can tilt there shield to block tornadoes then I don't think Ganondorfs Nair will be a problem unless they are close to shield break.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Landing the first hit also sets up combos

Honestly, I don't believe that vBrawl Ganondorf's Nair can set up strong combos as Dair dude (Correct me if I'm wrong). vBrawl doesn't have enough Hitstun, that's not Brawl+.

Since I'm very off now. What combos Nair can set up ?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Honestly, I don't believe that vBrawl Ganondorf's Nair can set up strong combos as Dair dude (Correct me if I'm wrong). vBrawl doesn't have enough Hitstun, that's not Brawl+.

Since I'm very off now. What combos Nair can set up ?

Basically the same stuff D-air can set up. It puts them in a bad position that you can follow up with easily. Keep in mind, D-air's combos are perfectly escapable on reaction too.

Your right good players are less likely to roll or spot dodge, but they still do. It is all dependent on your mix up game. What are you doing to make them want to roll or spot dodge more in your game? How do you force them into rolls, and what can you do to make them start spot dodging. Also Dair is a good way to punish grabs. not just rolls and spot dodges.

Good players learn to roll away or spotdodge ON REACTION, which Ganon can do pretty much nothing about. They observe the move, then dodge, and if they spotdodged on reaction, you're screwed.

The example you listed is also flawed, since you blatantly left out the opponent's option of spotdodging on reaction, which Ganon loses to if he tries to D-air or Flame Choke.

If people can tilt there shield to block tornadoes then I don't think Ganondorfs Nair will be a problem unless they are close to shield break.

Tornado actually has significant startup keep in mind, so there is more time to react to it as it is coming towards you.

 

[fonzi21]

Good players learn to roll away or spotdodge ON REACTION, which Ganon can do pretty much nothing about. They observe the move, then dodge, and if they spotdodged on reaction, you're screwed.

The example you listed is also flawed, since you blatantly left out the opponent's option of spotdodging on reaction, which Ganon loses to if he tries to D-air or Flame Choke.

You aren't suppose to just blindly Dair, we are suppose to react as well. If you are approaching with Dair then there lies your problem. You need to predict or react to your opponents move. This also goes back to limiting options. If your opponent is limited to two options Roll away or spot dodge. If I think he will spot dodge I Dair. If i think they will roll then I punish accordingly (***Just an example does NOT cover all options is just an example to explain***). They will not be able to react to every attack you do. otherwise they would never get hit. Ganondorf is not that slow that you can react to everything he has and never get hit. Also if you read I specifically said that I was not covering all options it was just merely an example to give you an idea of forcing your opponent to do certain things. It didn't cover all options because I didn't think it was necessary to explain them all.

Tornado actually has significant startup keep in mind, so there is more time to react to it as it is coming towards you.

I am unsure how else to explain that shield poking with Ganondorfs Nair in my opinion is not a viable option.

I see your side of the discussion I really do, but people will not be able to react to every single move you do. If someone could do that they would never get hit. Even with Ganondorf they won't be able to react to everything he does. Also as I stated earlier you should be reacting as well, and if you react correctly your move will land.

Also when you said Earlier you have to predict the spot dodge to land the Dair and they can still react, you said to scout the option by short hopping and waiting to do a Nair, your opponent can still react to this.

Smash is a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors.

 

[PK-ow!]

SBF, there are no 'shield breaker' properties.

Shield Breaker, Marth's special, is just an attack that does a lot of shield damage.

It actually doesn't even have respectable shield stun or push, so it doesn't even count properly as a punishment on block, if the opponent has a full shield. Proper play can let them preserve their shield against Marth's tools long enough for them not to worry about it breaking.

It's really there because otherwise... shield spam > Marth.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You aren't suppose to just blindly Dair, we are suppose to react as well. If you are approaching with Dair then there lies your problem.

I don't have this problem. My problem is against good players who never just randomly run into this move since all they have to do is space well and never roll forwards. You literally can't land this move against people who know what they are doing except in rare cases when they screw up juggles or against really predictable recoveries. Seriously, this move is too slow and impractical to actually land in high level play.

Oh I have a hell of a fun time with this attack, but it's always against people who don't know what they are doing in the matchup, or it's Ganon vs some other really ****ty character who has very few options.

Ganondorf is not that slow that you can react to everything he has and never get hit.

Maybe not, but he's pretty close to fitting that description. Like...EXTREMELY close.

He lacks the mobility and grab range to actually give you a reason to stop shielding or camping him, and what little he wants to use to create openings is avoidable on reaction.

I am unsure how else to explain that shield poking with Ganondorfs Nair in my opinion is not a viable option.

Nothing Ganon has is viable on shield to be honest. N-air however is your best bet if they are blocking and you are falling on their shield.

I see your side of the discussion I really do, but people will not be able to react to every single move you do. If someone could do that they would never get hit. Even with Ganondorf they won't be able to react to everything he does. Also as I stated earlier you should be reacting as well, and if you react correctly your move will land.

However, this doesn't change that most of Ganon's options are in fact avoidable on reaction and easily punished, not to mention the fact he lacks any way to make you stop shieldcamping him. How do we judge what is a useful move for Ganon? How likely you are able to land it. You cannot land D-air against someone competent because it's too slow. N-air's ability to cover options makes it one of Ganondorf's most useful aerials overall, and its ability to set up juggles is constantly underestimated.

Also when you said Earlier you have to predict the spot dodge to land the Dair and they can still react, you said to scout the option by short hopping and waiting to do a Nair, your opponent can still react to this.

The option I stated is better at keeping you in a more favorable position.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

SBF, there are no 'shield breaker' properties.

Shield Breaker, Marth's special, is just an attack that does a lot of shield damage.

It actually doesn't even have respectable shield stun or push, so it doesn't even count properly as a punishment on block, if the opponent has a full shield. Proper play can let them preserve their shield against Marth's tools long enough for them not to worry about it breaking.

It's really there because otherwise... shield spam > Marth.

You're right PK, but I didn't say that Dair = Marth's Side-B.

I meant that Dair, if used many times, can break the shield or inflict some Shield Pressure. In my opinion, Dair and Fsmash has some kind of Shield Pressure propertie. I have tested this against Bahamut (He doesn't know, I guess). When Bahamut "shielded" my first Fsmash, I continued to use the Fsmash again and again to inflict Shield Pressure and try to break his shield. I have to agree with you PK, but we must take into consideration that 23% is a strong hit, although Dair doesn't have the real Shield Breaker propertie (That's why I wrote "Shield Breaker").

In my opinion, Dair has some kind of "Shield Breaker" propertie (like Fsmash), although it doesn't even have respectable shield stun. >_>

Can you understand the point of my explanation dude ?

Smash is a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Agreed.

 

[@HomE]

This argument is ******** because this is all based on YOUR opinions based on how YOU play Ganondorf...

A2ZOMG doesnt like D-air much because the people he plays dont get mindgamed into it, can apparently see any moves @ frame 8 or so.., and react accordingly... thats fine, you have to resort to some of ganons faster (arguably safer) aerials....


Fonzi (and most other Ganon mains its seems) dont play people who have QQ/GG reaction time... and we are able to mindgame/limit options/out play, the people we play and land Dairs.


The point im making is stop argueing bull****..... if you want to post a match (or several if its the case with ALLL pros) with someone spot dodgeing/rolling/avoiding/ect.. ALLL of Ganon's Dairs, that might add a little bit of structure your crumbling arguments...

just saying out of ALLLL the matches (i mean every single match ive ever seen with Ganon ever) they have not only used Dair more then Nair, they also land that Dair several if not many times...

And im not talking about scrub replays, im talking about top 10 Ganon's in the world replays....

 

[A2ZOMG]

This argument is ******** because this is all based on YOUR opinions based on how YOU play Ganondorf...

Quite on the contrary, that's not what it's based on. It's based on careful observation of options and what people can do if they know what to do. As I said, I use D-air quite a lot since I'm very into tricking people.

A2ZOMG doesnt like D-air much because the people he plays dont get mindgamed into it, can apparently see any moves @ frame 8 or so.., and react accordingly... thats fine, you have to resort to some of ganons faster (arguably safer) aerials....

No, I mindgame people all the time because my entire playstyle is in fact mindgames and knowing technical options. That doesn't stop me from recognizing that my opponent could easily have just simply done something different and more conservative. D-air is entirely avoidable except in Flame Choke techchases or edgeguards (and good luck landing the Flame Choke in most matchups). Furthermore its startup is 16, added to a 7 frame jump totaling 23 frames, which is slower than most smash attack, and it has no horizontal range.

Fonzi (and most other Ganon mains its seems) dont play people who have QQ/GG reaction time... and we are able to mindgame/limit options/out play, the people we play and land Dairs.

So what if you can mindgame? Ganondorf can't actually limit options safely unless he gets a lucky Flame Choke, and outplaying your opponent is irrelevant to this argument.

The point im making is stop argueing bull****..... if you want to post a match (or several if its the case with ALLL pros) with someone spot dodgeing/rolling/avoiding/ect.. ALLL of Ganon's Dairs, that might add a little bit of structure your crumbling arguments...

Quite on the contrary, I have to ask that of you, since my arguments are very consistent and based on solid data and observation of options, while all your arguments are based on what Ganon can do against a player who doesn't do things or react properly.

just saying out of ALLLL the matches (i mean every single match ive ever seen with Ganon ever) they have not only used Dair more then Nair, they also land that Dair several if not many times...

Well, nobody likes seeing Ganon lose, right? I certainly don't, but that doesn't change that Ganondorf is a joke character that is not viable, and thus not commonly used in tournament. You don't have to play against him extremely well to win (with a few minor matchup exceptions), but playing against him properly means that there is almost nothing he can do that isn't avoidable on reaction or through smart conservative play.

tl;dr, N-air is underused and one of Ganon's better options in general due to its speed and range and mixup potential. D-air is massively overrated and very difficult to safely apply against players with matchup knowledge.

 

[fonzi21]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIX8CAVMYSc

This is a match of myself Vs. Ally back in March of 09 when I was just learning smash. It was at my 3rd Tournament. Right after Clash of the Titans 4.

I Lose, but I am able to land Dair. I also miss a lot of Gerudo's because back then I was approaching with it instead of punishing with it.

Also if you watch the games of me Vs. Alphazealot. even though they were friendlies I was still able to land plenty of Dair's.

 

[A2ZOMG]

That's not addressing the argument at all.

In most of those situations, they were because Ally made a spacing mistake and was being aggressive most of the time, which he totally doesn't have to do if he wants to just win more convincingly.

You don't have to play extremely well to beat Ganon, but if you play the matchup, most of his tools are in fact not viable and consistently avoidable on reaction in basically all situations on stage, which is the argument that I'm making right now.

Under the assumption you play against someone who is doing the matchup correctly, this is when D-air (not to mention Flame Choke) is in fact unviable in most matchups.

N-air can be used in some situations to win before reaction time can, and has enough range to cover certain critical options. D-air can only be landed when the opponent commits to something dumb.

 

[@HomE]

Quite on the contrary, that's not what it's based on. It's based on careful observation of options and what people can do if they know what to do. As I said, I use D-air quite a lot since I'm very into tricking people.

No, I mindgame people all the time because my entire playstyle is in fact mindgames and knowing technical options. That doesn't stop me from recognizing that my opponent could easily have just simply done something different and more conservative. D-air is entirely avoidable except in Flame Choke techchases or edgeguards (and good luck landing the Flame Choke in most matchups). Furthermore its startup is 16, added to a 7 frame jump totaling 23 frames, which is slower than most smash attack, and it has no horizontal range.

So what if you can mindgame? Ganondorf can't actually limit options safely unless he gets a lucky Flame Choke, and outplaying your opponent is irrelevant to this argument.

Quite on the contrary, I have to ask that of you, since my arguments are very consistent and based on solid data and observation of options, while all your arguments are based on what Ganon can do against a player who doesn't do things or react properly.

Well, nobody likes seeing Ganon lose, right? I certainly don't, but that doesn't change that Ganondorf is a joke character that is not viable, and thus not commonly used in tournament. You don't have to play against him extremely well to win (with a few minor matchup exceptions), but playing against him properly means that there is almost nothing he can do that isn't avoidable on reaction or through smart conservative play.

tl;dr, N-air is underused and one of Ganon's better options in general due to its speed and range and mixup potential. D-air is massively overrated and very difficult to safely apply against players with matchup knowledge.

My point was simply that you are argueing impossibilites... what i got from your argument was that (and this is obviously a very brief summary) if you play a perfect player (Top of the meta-game) it is next to impossible to land Dair. therefore making Nair a more viable move... thats it in a nutshell, Amirite?

What I'm saying is that its not reasonable to base this on prefection... if we ranked how good all the moves in the game were against 8 frame reaction time, half of everyone's moves would never hit because in THEORY the perfect player would see that coming and Spot dodge/roll/avoid/ect... useing that same train of thought would declare almost all the smash attacks in the game void, useless... How can it be possible that at the top of the meta-game (I'm talking Ally and M2K lvl) anyone gets hit with a smash attack... Is it possible that the BEST brawl player in the world could make a mistake? HOLY FK YES!

Everytime they get hit they ARE making a mistake, they could have done countless other options at that one point in time instead of "insert action here". perfection doesnt exist, argueing move viability based on something that is not possible is, IMO, ********..

<3

 

[fonzi21]

So your basing your discussion off the fact that if people play perfect Ganondorf cannot win. Because if your saying Ally is bad then I'm unsure whether or not to trust your opinions.

Also thank you @home that's a very good explanation.