My thoughts on why Advance Techniques were removed....

[Zk Hammer]

**** **** *** **** ***** ****** **** **** ****er **** *** RAAAWWR ANGRY THREAD

 

[The Hypnotist]

I will read the thread soon. But I must say I agree with the TC, and I think that Nintendo is so retarted because you can't eliminate the gap. And everyone isn't going to be the same, it makes me just want to go to stupid with anyone mode and just crap all over newbs, make them cry, just a big phuck you to Nintendo.

 

[LavisFiend]

All competitive players have played casually at one point. Not all casual players have played competitively before. They really have no say on whether advanced techniques should be removed.

Neither do the competitive players.

 

[Flaminglink]

Link will have to most advanced techniques Mark my words his boomerang has amazing advanced techniques that you can make up with it... Link rules XD

 

[Ojanya]

L-canceling wasn't taken out -_-

 

[The Hypnotist]

Nintendo wants a more level playing field, so play gets simplified a little to keep new players from getting discouraged. I was angry about it before, but for now I'll spare my sanity and just wait until I play the game. Then I'll throw myself off an overpass.

Just remember that less advanced techniques means less excuses when you lose. Or as someone else put more succinctly, NO JOHNS. There will always be a gap between those who practice and those who don't. This goes for anything.

Maybe the next gen excuse will be "The only reason your good is you have too much time on ur hands!!!!"

Oh, wait. People actually use that one now.

This guy is 100% right.

It's stupid though, because there are friend codes. I think good players are the reason you can't do 1 on 1s or stock matches with anyone.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Wavedashing is not a tech, it's a glitch. I don't know why people can not admit to this (well, it's because pros abuse it)! I'm glad Wavedashing is out. As for L-Canceling, it was pretty stupid to begin with. I want to focus more on the actual games strategy than pressing a combination of buttons really quickly.

 

[Darkfur]

Wavedashing is not a tech, it's a glitch. I don't know why people can not admit to this (well, it's because pros abuse it)! I'm glad Wavedashing is out. As for L-Canceling, it was pretty stupid to begin with. I want to focus more on the actual games strategy than pressing a combination of buttons really quickly.

It's an exploit, not a glitch. Really people, learn the difference. *sigh*

And L Canceling isn't out. It's done differently. Stop whining.

 

[Ojanya]

Wavedashing is not a tech, it's a glitch. I don't know why people can not admit to this (well, it's because pros abuse it)! I'm glad Wavedashing is out. As for L-Canceling, it was pretty stupid to begin with. I want to focus more on the actual games strategy than pressing a combination of buttons really quickly.

L-canceling is stupid? To me, it sounds like you're too lazy to just learn these moves.

You're going to get a lot of people pissed at you.

 

[Tank McCannon]

Advanced Techs can separate the good from the bad, but not as much mindgames do.

The new air dodging system will give everyone SO many more options with mind games that the gap between casual and competitive will stay the same, if not get bigger.

So yeah, casual players will be beaten online just as much as they would've if the gameplay would've stayed the same from Melee. Maybe not right away, but once the competitive scene has had enough time with the game, yeah, it's over.

 

[DiscoShark]

Wavedashing was a side-effect (not a feature, or dedicated game mechanic) of the physics engine that was in Melee it was never officially "included" in the first place. The physics were tweaked in this edition of the Super Smash Franchise and due to this Wavedashing became impossible. Just as it was never intentionally put in to the game, I doubt it was ever intentionally taken out the same way. Aside from all that, it's FAR too early to be judging that any and all Advanced Techniques are gone from the game before anyone has had any extended time with the FINAL product.

Lets have a toast to the "Inkdrop"

 

[LavisFiend]

How about all of you shut up with this nonsense?

Why the hell was this brought back to life?

YOU CAN'T ****ING WIN THE DEBATE, SO WHY IN THE HELL BOTHER HAVING IT?!

 

[Heretique]

I'm sure they were just removed because they weren't intentionally in there in the first place. Now they're being replaced with other things that are obviously made to enhance the depth of the game.

 

[Xedi]

Honestly I'm happy that wavedashing is out.
I can wavedash just fine and everything, but I just don't think it's fun to be jumping and pressing the shield button all the freaking time... All the other techniques are fine, like l cancel etc... But I just don't think wavedashing brought something good to melee.
Now that's just my opinion and I'm certainly not a fantastic player but I got around and don't think wavedash enhanced the playability.

 

[Darkfur]

I'm sure they were just removed because they weren't intentionally in there in the first place. Now they're being replaced with other things that are obviously made to enhance the depth of the game.

The thing is though, nothing was removed. Wavedashing was not removed, it is just no longer possible. And that is not the same thing. Wavedashing was an exploit. It was a side effect of the game physics. They decided to do air dodge a different way this time, so now we can't wavedash. It'd highly doubtful that they changed the mechanics of the air dodge simply to get rid of Wavedashing because if they wanted to get rid of wavedashing it would only take a few simple lines of code and not a complete rehaul of the way to do it. And, from what I've seen and heard, Wavelanding is still possible with this new air dodge system.

Also, L Canceling was not removed, the way you do it has changed. Look in Gimpyfish's topic about E for All.

 

[victra♥]

I wish i had two faces so i can facepalm with both my hands.

L-canceling is not removed in Brawl and it is not a glitch. L-Canceling has always been in the smash series, as mentioned before, as "Z-Canceling." Unless Sakurai removes almost every aspect of the game, there is always going to be some form of Advanced Technique. Sure, wavedashing is out, let's move on. Beginner smashers are always under the impression that if one can wavedash, one is instantly a better smasher and can compete with hardcore competitive players. That is not the case. The ability to predict the moves of your opponent, and integrate advanced techniques into their game play is what seperates the two. There are always going to be large gaps between amateurs and pros, and you can't do anything about that.

 

[LavisFiend]

I wish i had two faces so i can facepalm with both my hands.

L-canceling is not removed in Brawl and it is not a glitch. L-Canceling has always been in the smash series, as mentioned before, as "Z-Canceling." Unless Sakurai removes almost every aspect of the game, there is always going to be some form of Advanced Technique. Sure, wavedashing is out, let's move on. Beginner smashers are always under the impression that if one can wavedash, one is instantly a better smasher and can compete with hardcore competitive players. That is not the case. The ability to predict the moves of your opponent, and integrate advanced techniques into their game play is what seperates the two. There are always going to be large gaps between amateurs and pros, and you can't do anything about that.

Quit wasting your brain power on this thread. It is just not WORTH it anymore.

 

[Heretique]

The thing is though, nothing was removed. Wavedashing was not removed, it is just no longer possible. And that is not the same thing. Wavedashing was an exploit. It was a side effect of the game physics. They decided to do air dodge a different way this time, so now we can't wavedash. It'd highly doubtful that they changed the mechanics of the air dodge simply to get rid of Wavedashing because if they wanted to get rid of wavedashing it would only take a few simple lines of code and not a complete rehaul of the way to do it. And, from what I've seen and heard, Wavelanding is still possible with this new air dodge system.

Also, L Canceling was not removed, the way you do it has changed. Look in Gimpyfish's topic about E for All.

Removed doesn't have to be intentional. If it's gone, it's removed. If I accidentally exploded, I would be removed from your environment.

 

[IWontGetOverTheDam]

I never even use wavedashing, so that doesn't affect me.

 

[Reyairia]

[They Were Removed Because They Were Glitches And Smash Is Supposed To Be Casual Not ****ing Tournament Competetive. My ****ing God How Many More Reatarded Threads Like These Must There Be?!?!?!?!?

Haha, exactly.
Most "advanced techniques" are probably just glitch exploitation.

 

[commonyoshi]

Wow, just wow. I can understand someone's view that wavedashing is a glitch, but L-canceling? What the heck?!

I want to focus more on the actual games strategy than pressing a combination of buttons really quickly.

You do realize this is a fighting game, correct? @_@

See, this is exactly why I hate noobs. They always make up some extremely stupid reason to support their noobish ideas. It all boils down to them not be able to use advanced techs so they whine about it. I dont complain when someone beats me at basketball because they can actually dribble correctly so I dont see why noobs in smash complain about losing when they suck.

The simple truth is that people who use advanced techs are generally more capable at being a gamer. They have the mindset and the "finger ability" to be better than noobs. Noobs always complain about advanced techs. Take them out of the game, and they are still going to lose 99% of the time.

 

[GoldenS1104]

This might sound far-fetched, but I personally think that it was because Sakurai didn't like them. He probably thinks that we betrayed him with Melee, hell, I would. We turned his (perfect) game into something that it wasn't meant to be.

Farfetch'd?

 

[Jiikae]

It doesn't matter there are gonna be tournaments with final smashes on and maybe even assist trophies( low chance for assist trophies but I like the idea of summoning different characters). Then there is gonna be separate tournaments for the "competitive" scene. So does it really matter since we're all gonna be happy anyway?

 

[The Hypnotist]

Just letting the newbs know. If you played as good as me (which isn't that great) you'd like advanced techniques. Here's my favorite arguement and the casual players always ignore it.

We used to be casual, just like you. And we actually PLAYED competitivly. We didn't just try to wavedash, we actually got good at the game. And we like it a lot more than playing casually. You've never tried are way, so you really have no idea what your talking about. Seriously, play are way, actually play are way, you don't even have to go to a tounrney. Just learn the advanced techniques well, play someone good and record the match. It's a lot more fun, at least in our opinions and remeber we played just like you.

 

[eggs-on-toast]

Does it really matter if WD is in or not its not essential, yes i could do it, but i didn't because i never saw the need. Also that site about 'playing for the win' is the biggest load of crap since what i craped out this morning i play 'for fun'. Yes it is fun learning to do advance techs like combos ect. but abusing a single move is not fun either is abusing glitches i'd rather lose knowing i played fair and respected my opponent than use the same move over and abuse glitches to win

BTW this is a casual point of view so i may be wrong but its my opinion

 

[Fen]

I'm thinking more and more Sakurai doesn't want a fiasco like Snaking in Mario Kart DS.

*agreed........

 

[Xanderous]

*agreed........

None of the advanced techniques in Melee can be compared to snaking in Mario Kart.

 

[NotGiratina]

The intention doesn't really matter,the fact the result occured is what counts.

 

[Brenco55]

They were removed to make more money. How you ask? let me break it down fro you. As sad as i am about their removal i have never thought about not buying brawl and im sure other AT users would agree, so there is no loss in sales there. But when a friend comes over to your house who is new at the series instaed of getting murdered by your AT's and getting a terrible first impression, they might win a few and quickly learn enough to cmpete and tehy will want to buy the game to b ready foer the next time you play. so as u can see dumbing down the game means more profit and in the end all nintendo cares about is profit.

P.S. for those of you who say your so good you'll always beat your friends without ats, you must have some absolutly ******** friend cuz the game is not that hard to grasp.

 

[MysticKenji]

stuff

Or you could teach them ATs
Or you could just not use ATs for that match
Or you could let them win

 

[UltimateShinigami]

There is still the SHFFL in the game and with that it still divides noobs from pros. Since there is little lag in the game its like auto L canceling so SHFFL still works. Any Pro could easily beat a casual player w/o using WD or L cancel easy. Your an idiot if you think removing those two techniques will help casual players at all be better than pro players. And who says that SSBM wasn't supposed to be Competitive. Nintendo dosn't give a **** what people do with it. Why is Halo competitive then? Hmm? There are many competitive video games. Halo, Madden, Smash Bros, and all of those other online games. If you serioulsy think taht Smash is competitive as you say. Well be surpised, there are more games that take competivness WAY MORE SERIOUSLY. You guy seriously need to stop *****ing about how other people play the game.

Its like you saying that Baseball shouldn't be competitive just because you can't hit the ball cause your facing a pro baseball player who throws the ball at 90 MPH. So you've gotta ***** and moan to these people to make it so that you can't throw it that fast, you get an infinate number of swings so we don't have to listen to you whine when you strike out all 5 times your up, and so on and so on. If Baseball can be competitive why can't Smash bros. You don't have to take part of it. I pity you tony.

QFT. Great baseball referance

 

[Brenco55]

you do try bto teach them but as you can see from most of these comments ppl just like to complain rather than learn and not everybody is nice enough to tone it down or throw the match. im talking about the big picture not individual events

 

[Xenesis]

None of the advanced techniques in Melee can be compared to snaking in Mario Kart.

They have the same effect on the fanbase, however.

 

[OddCrow]

I think the only reason advanced techs were in Melee were by accident. Sakurai wasn't like "lol, ze wavedashin is so cool, I hope people find out about it" it was just a game mechanics abuse. In Brawl, however, I think advanced techniques were looked at. Because they want this game to be fun for newbies and deep for more intense gamers, everyone wins, there will be advanced techniques, we just have to find them. : )

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Wow these threads bring in morons from all parts of the globe. -_-

This quote answers the question.

I think they were taken out because it's a new game with a new psychics engine. I could be wrong, though.

Also, as much as I hate this phrase, I have to say it. This is not Melee 2.0. It's a new game, so it's not going to include everything that Melee had.

 

[commonyoshi]

We used to be casual, just like you. And we actually PLAYED competitivly. We didn't just try to wavedash, we actually got good at the game. And we like it a lot more than playing casually. You've never tried are way, so you really have no idea what your talking about. Seriously, play are way, actually play are way, you don't even have to go to a tounrney. Just learn the advanced techniques well, play someone good and record the match. It's a lot more fun, at least in our opinions and remeber we played just like you.

I'm not making fun or you or anything, but you used "are" instead of "our" a heck of a lot more times than I'd have thought possible. You'll thank me for correcting you the next time you have an essay.

Yes it is fun learning to do advance techs like combos ect. but abusing a single move is not fun either is abusing glitches i'd rather lose knowing i played fair and respected my opponent than use the same move over and abuse glitches to win

Even though I think this is a weird viewpoint who's origin is unfounded, not I, or anyone, can ever convince you that you are wrong. You say you're going to respect someone by not using the wave dash like that actually means something. Well I can say I'd be insulted if I ever played someone who didn't fight me with the best of their ability by chosing random, sucky moves just for the sake of "honor".

I understand you're trying to be noble in your own weird way, but perhaps you should take a look at what nobility is. Playing against your 4 year old brother, fine, dont wavedash. I wouldn't either. But playing against established gamers in this way insults the community by not playing up to your full potential. You're stagnating the community's growth by not trying your hardest to be the best. Competition and skill can only increase when everyone works their hardest.

Wow, this was a fun post to write.

 

[Xanderous]

They have the same effect on the fanbase, however.

That's the same with anything. I don't get what you're trying to prove here. Better players win. It's a fact of life.

 

[brawlmaniac]

Man, how long will it take people to realize that l-cancelling wasn't a glitch? It was listed on the old smash bros site as a legitimate techniqute. Just because you suck and can't do it doesn't mean it's "lol glitch." Try to improve so you don't get your *** beat or learn to deal with your suckiness and shut the **** up.

****ing noobs need to realize that they're the ones provoking all of this ****. I consider myself fairly pro (not as good as the frequent tourney goers) and whenever I play someone that sucks, I don't look down on them. I usually try to offer advice or try to help them improve instead of bashing on them for not using advanced techniques. The problem here is that ******* see how good AT users are and automatically start bashing on them for cheating. If you'd just shut the **** up and mind your own business, you'd stop getting all of this elitism from the pros. Yes they're better than you, but if you don't provoke them, they have no reason to flaunt it. You can't blame a pro for fighting back because some ******** 10 year old starts calling him names and swearing at him for doing something that the noob can't use. Besides, no matter how many times you say it's cheap, you still won't convince anyone to stop using advanced techs. That's just how it is.

Everyone has the same opportunity. Everyone can learn to WD, l-cancel, SHFFL, and all that other ****. It just takes time. If you can't devote that kind of time to it, don't ***** when someone who can kicks your ***. Either try to improve or don't whine when you get your *** handed to you. It's that simple.

****ing scrubs.

Yeah, what he said

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Wavedashing being gone isn't going to **** up anything majorly. Wavedashing only ever mattered when it was someone who could wavedash vs. someone who couldn't. So basically, pros vs. noobs. When a pro faced a pro wavedashing really only sped up the gameplay, and pros would beat noobs even without wavedashing. It was cool, but really not that amazing. It only mattered when one person couldn't do it and at big tournaments everyone could wavedash.

We still have SHFFLs, only done slightly differently, and improved DI (which I'm pretty excited for).

I just hope there are still lots of spiking moves.

 

[Xenesis]

That's the same with anything. I don't get what you're trying to prove here. Better players win. It's a fact of life.

That's not my point. Better players do win, that much is obvious. My point is a bit more subtle than that.

Why is Wavedashing the hate technique for anti-pros and casuals in Melee? Why not SHFFLing or DI or whatever? Because it's blatant, in your face, looks "unnatural" and has a skill wall to acquire the usage of said skill instead of a slope. (Eg, as a skill it is practically worthless until you can do all parts of it in unison, accurately while a lot of other skills in this game are useful at all levels or skill, but as your proficiency improves said skill becomes more powerful in play).

Obviously in Melee it isn't some super-powered instant win that's comparable to Snaking in MKDS which is required to compete, but the effect on the player base is the same - Endless flaming back and forth about whether Wavedashing/Snaking is cheating, newbies to the game being incredibly turned off because their opponents are kicking their arse - but also while doing something that confuses the hell out of them.

By limiting the game to "subtle" techniques (DI, Lag Cancelling, SHFFLs, etc.) it will serve to extend the life of the game because newbies jumping into Multiplayer online or whatever after just playing with their friend down the street won't be staring at the bafflement of something that looks so incredibly foreign to them; many will stop in disgust because they think that their opponent IS actually cheating and the like.

Likewise, the pros won't have to deal with constant attacks about silly things like that - you'll just have to argue against items and stages being banned.