My thoughts on why Advance Techniques were removed....

[Aceleeon]

awesome vid. good stuff.
text is hard to read though.

 

[Spellman]

The game is plenty competitive with or without the techniques being in the game.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I think the point that often gets overlooked in the playing to win argument is the slippery slope of "what is cheap?". For example, some people claim that wavedashing is cheap. Okay, maybe I can understand that. Others claim that the entire act of edge guarding a person who is recovering is cheap. Okay...is that a stretch? Still others believe that the act of dodging and rolling is cheap. Still others proclaim that the act of using the C-Stick is cheap. If you claim even one of these things to be cheap or excessive or to be an unfair advantage you suddenly give credibility to every other argument in regards to what is cheap.

What if people thought that rolling, or using B moves were cheap? By applying the "play to win" argument you can quickly destroy such ideas simply because the only thing that is "cheap" is something that is so gamebreaking that it is the only way to win, which doesn't fit the bill for wavedashing when 1)every character can use it and 2)some character who can use it choose not to use it and are still succesful (Peach, Link, for example).

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I think the point that often gets overlooked in the playing to win argument is the slippery slope of "what is cheap?". For example, some people claim that wavedashing is cheap. Okay, maybe I can understand that. Others claim that the entire act of edge guarding a person who is recovering is cheap. Okay...is that a stretch? Still others believe that the act of dodging and rolling is cheap. Still others proclaim that the act of using the C-Stick is cheap. If you claim even one of these things to be cheap or excessive or to be an unfair advantage you suddenly give credibility to every other argument in regards to what is cheap.

What if people thought that rolling, or using B moves were cheap? By applying the "play to win" argument you can quickly destroy such ideas simply because the only thing that is "cheap" is something that is so gamebreaking that it is the only way to win, which doesn't fit the bill for wavedashing when 1)every character can use it and 2)some character who can use it choose not to use it and are still succesful (Peach, Link, for example).

Exactly. Like I've been saying to acceleion all thread, if I can take your arguments as to why wavedashing is ''cheap'' ''shouldnt be in the game'' ''not intended'' or whatever, and can apply them to virtually any technique in the game, then you have a bad argument.

With playing to win you can establish a firm system of what is, and isnt fair. And whiners can quickly be quieted with a nice ''no johns'' and promptly labelled as scrubs, so people will know you're a scrub and no one will play you. That's how it works for online smash 64 anyway, and some melee. Brawl lets us be anonymous so I guess you can john as much as you want without worrying about any reprocussions, other than people surely laughing at you, and how ignorant you are.

nor will DD or anything of the glitchy play to win stuff will.....

... Dashdancing is a glitch now?

Now I've heard everything.

I refuse to try to teach you anything now. You're hopeless, bye.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Wow, there are a lot of these threads. I am surprised. They each have a slightly different flavor.

As mentioned before, advanced techniques will still be present in Brawl. Sure, wavedashing is gone. L-canceling exists in a new form, but even if it was gone, players would discover new techniques that would be classified as "advanced". The cycle never ends. Every game provides new depth.

 

[xelad1]

... Dashdancing is a glitch now?

Now I've heard everything.

I refuse to try to teach you anything now. You're hopeless, bye.

U DIDN'T HEAR DASHDANCING IS A GLITCH THAT THEY KEPT IN BRAWL OMGWTF!!!1

 

[veil222]

People really go to extreme opposites here on the boards about these things.

I really disagree with the "play to win" mentality, mostly because the tone is one that would condone dropping the controllers and havein a back alley fistfight to determine the winner. Really, the most efficent way for me to win in those cases would be to no play at all, as in breaking my opponants hands before the match so he forfeits. Honor never enters into it, because in such mindsets honor is a weakness.

I know, way too extreme and it's not meant to be implimented like that, but being cut throat doesn't create as fun an atmosphere. It would really seem to me like it would make everyone in the room nothing more than an obstacle to surpass, and less a person to enjoy the game with.

This is the same old argument of casual vs tournament though, they're always going to be different, and anyone in the middle of the two will get shoved into one of the two sides and breated by their opposite.

It's nothing but preference, there isn't right and wrong here, just different styles people prefer for various reasons of *opinion*. What people keep screwing up is getting their facts wrong and basing their opinions off that.

This will be the same in brawl, tournament players will find all the techs and use them to the best of their ability to defeat their opponants, casuals will play the game for face value and use it as a party game. Neither are wrong, inferior, or less merited than the other.

 

[Hydde]

yeah... is sad to see WD go... but im in some way happy because we still will be able to learn new things from Brawl. Me, as a lot of people, abused this and the others ATs

I main marth, and withotu WD half of my gameplay is half fooked up, but who cares... ill try to find a way to play him in brawl, and if not ill find another player and move on.

I really think that after all this years, Sakurai knows very well huis product, and to where he wants the game to go.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

What I don't understand is how people can be so passionate about being in favor of anti-passion! Only the casual players are crying foul to the the competitive community. The competitive community only responds to their poorly derived conclusions with appropriate logic. We do not tell them that they have to learn advanced techniques. It is purely optional, so it should just be left alone. Stop complaining about having to work to win.

 

[Goldkirby]

Defining what is a glitch and what isn't doesn't change anything, as far as competitive players are concerned. It's only things such as easy infinites that get banned.

Well, I still think that easy infinites are impressive when you pull them off in a match that matters. For me, something simple that works is infinitely better then something flashy that gets you killed.

I really think the community is being to harsh on wobbling. It doesn't break the game. It is hard to set up for. The only thing easy about it is the execution. Easy or not, I don't think wobbling or similar techniques should be banned because they don't break the game. You don't see a bunch of wobbling ice climbers suddenly start winning tournaments. Why? Because it's not broken, that's why. Plus if you spend too much time trying to set up for the infinite, you are gonna get outplayed. Trying to wobble has it's advantages and tradeoffs, and there are enough tradeoffs that it is not broken. The only things that should be banned in play are things that are basically impossible to beat like game freezing glitches or very rarely, a character that is so powerful that playing him is universally considered "cheap" (ssf2t akuma anybody?). In smash there is no character so broken that they are impossible to beat. Smash may not be the most balanced game in the world, but it's balanced enough to work as a competetive game.

I actually hope that there are MORE infinites in brawl just so that people will get used to them and accept them as a part of normal gameplay.





EDIT:

People really go to extreme opposites here on the boards about these things.

I really disagree with the "play to win" mentality, mostly because the tone is one that would condone dropping the controllers and havein a back alley fistfight to determine the winner. Really, the most efficent way for me to win in those cases would be to no play at all, as in breaking my opponants hands before the match so he forfeits. Honor never enters into it, because in such mindsets honor is a weakness.

I know, way too extreme and it's not meant to be implimented like that, but being cut throat doesn't create as fun an atmosphere. It would really seem to me like it would make everyone in the room nothing more than an obstacle to surpass, and less a person to enjoy the game with.

This is the same old argument of casual vs tournament though, they're always going to be different, and anyone in the middle of the two will get shoved into one of the two sides and breated by their opposite.

It's nothing but preference, there isn't right and wrong here, just different styles people prefer for various reasons of *opinion*. What people keep screwing up is getting their facts wrong and basing their opinions off that.

This will be the same in brawl, tournament players will find all the techs and use them to the best of their ability to defeat their opponants, casuals will play the game for face value and use it as a party game. Neither are wrong, inferior, or less merited than the other.

Read the f*cking article before posting stupid responses like this. Seriously, that is why people need to READ the article for themselves instead of getting influenced by people who don't know what they are talking about like yourself. I can't even respond to you right now because you missed the entire point of the article and instead chose to pull out a Tanya Harding style example out of your ***.

 

[Sandwich]

What I don't get is.
Why do people keep talking about ATs?
It turns into a flamefest.

 

[greenblob]

So losing at Smash makes it no longer fun?

I guess you'll be quitting on the day that you open the box.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

The casual community is passionate about anti-passion.

 

[Idfection]

Usually I have to side with advanced players, because the argument itself is almost always started by a casual player who's upset for lord knows why... but I really hate finding the same debate over and over and over on the boards. Once brawl is out, it will make more since for there to be complaints, as casuals will be paired up randomly with more advanced players online. But why in Melee? Can't casuals just play other casuals?

Regardless, I am kind of glad of the choices they made for Brawl, by seemingly lowering the advanced technique count. It takes out some of the more obvious johns, especially since lag-cancel's now basically an established part of the franchise. Of course, there will always be johns, period... but hopefully Brawl won't have anything that sparks an argument that lasts the entirety of the game's life.

 

[veil222]

I did read the article, and didn't get the same thing out of it you did, get over it, explain to me why you think differently, or just don't bother me.

 

[Foe]

Who cares what changes they made. If you are the best, you will play brawl, you will try to find new techs, and you will win no matter what. If you aren't playing a game with no wavedashing and no techs and lose but when you use them you win are really a good player? I can wavedash and yes, it will hurt how I play but I am willing to change how I play so that when brawl comes out I will be good.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Personally, I will not miss wavedashing. Sure, it was useful, but I grew tired of doing it all the time. I look forward to learning new tricks in Brawl.

 

[veil222]

Regardless, I am kind of glad of the choices they made for Brawl, by seemingly lowering the advanced technique count... but hopefully Brawl won't have anything that sparks an argument that lasts the entirety of the game's life.

I agree, dunno how many techs there will be but it seems they're working hard on making everything in the game intentional, foreseeable, and somehow balancable. I don't know if I agree witht he opinion that theres a big wall between the newer players and veterans of tourneys involving the techs, but standardizing them and intetionally implimenting them will remove them from the problem if there were part of it to beging with.

 

[Foe]

Personally, I will not miss wavedashing. Sure, it was useful, but I grew tired of doing it all the time. I look forward to learning new tricks in Brawl.

I totally agree.


Besides, if wavedashing was in and there were no new techs we would still hear complaining. People seem to complain no matter what.

 

[krammit]

Exactly. Like I've been saying to acceleion all thread, if I can take your arguments as to why wavedashing is ''cheap'' ''shouldnt be in the game'' ''not intended'' or whatever, and can apply them to virtually any technique in the game, then you have a bad argument.

With playing to win you can establish a firm system of what is, and isnt fair. And whiners can quickly be quieted with a nice ''no johns'' and promptly labelled as scrubs, so people will know you're a scrub and no one will play you. That's how it works for online smash 64 anyway, and some melee. Brawl lets us be anonymous so I guess you can john as much as you want without worrying about any reprocussions, other than people surely laughing at you, and how ignorant you are.



... Dashdancing is a glitch now?

Now I've heard everything.

I refuse to try to teach you anything now. You're hopeless, bye.

Stop acting like your some diety of smash. He never asked to be taught by the great Dylan_Tnga. He's simply trying to defend his point. ( Even though he failed. >_>)

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Stop acting like your some diety of smash. He never asked to be taught by the great Dylan_Tnga. He's simply trying to defend his point. ( Even though he failed. >_>)

I'll post whatever I wanna post sir.

Personally, I will not miss wavedashing. Sure, it was useful, but I grew tired of doing it all the time. I look forward to learning new tricks in Brawl.

There we go. Thats basically the best solution.

What I don't understand is how people can be so passionate about being in favor of anti-passion! Only the casual players are crying foul to the the competitive community. The competitive community only responds to their poorly derived conclusions with appropriate logic. We do not tell them that they have to learn advanced techniques. It is purely optional, so it should just be left alone. Stop complaining about having to work to win.

hahaha they wont read it though they'll just ignore it. Ah I spent 2 hours here today and now I can see why I dont come here often.

 

[Adi]

Most of the anti-competitive claims are founded in ignorance or spite. Sometimes we respond in a derogatory way and as a result more casuals flock towards the anti-competitive leaders. It's a vicious cycle.

 

[Goldkirby]

I did read the article, and didn't get the same thing out of it you did, get over it, explain to me why you think differently, or just don't bother me.

Basically, he said play to win using whatever is allowed within the game and generally accepted rules itself, not do crap outside of the game like break someone's hands. I honestly think that if you came to that conclusion after reading the entire thing carefully, then you did miss the point. Even if that is an exaggeration, you still missed the point of the article if you came up with that example for the playing to win mentality. Playing to win is more like playing the game to the boundaries of the ruleset in place to outsmart your opponent and win. This includes using techniques that casual players don't know how to use, since most of the time, they are not game breaking techniques.

Also, some people have more fun when they have to think hard in order to beat someone, it brings more depth into the game and is more then the normal scrub attitude of button mashing and unwillingness to adapt to changes. Maybe the button mashing is fun for a while but the reason why a competetive game survives for so long is the depth involved in the game play. A game fit for a tournament will have rules, but there will be as few of these rules as possible to make the game still "fair." Everyone can learn to play the game properly, some don't choose to do so, then they complain when they lose. This article is basically directed towards why these attitudes are scrubbish.


There are 3 basic mentalities when approaching a competetive game:

*The attitude of a scrub when they lose basically goes like this: "I lost because you were cheap. Play with some honor!"

*The attitude of a person wanting to improve when they lose is much different. Instead it is more along the lines of: "Why did I lose? What did the other person do that I kept falling for? What kind of things can I use to counter that?"

*Finally there is the attitude of someone who knows how the game works, but doesn't care enough to improve: "Well, he's definitely better then me, and while I'd like to become as good, I don't care enough to practice and I have better things to do with my time. I will just accept the loss and move on without whining."

Although you may think these are just different ways of playing and neither one is right or wrong, I fully believe that the second and third ways are the correct way to go about playing a competetive game. If you want to get better, then practice and analiyze your mistakes. If you don't, then just deal with losing and don't call other stuff cheap when you don't even try and figure a way around it.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Most of the anti-competitive claims are founded in ignorance or spite. Sometimes we respond in a derogatory way and as a result more casuals flock towards the anti-competitive leaders. It's a vicious cycle.

best we can do is just bore them by pointing out they're wrong and not indulge them by lowering ourselves to their level.

this whole moral superiority thing ^^

works well too as an undertone. It stirs up more spite but it still feels good.

 

[veil222]

Gold, thanks for taking the time to really explain your thoughts, I appreciate it man, I really do. It helped me to understand why you feel like you do, and that's pretty important considering if I don't know that I can't even beging to explain my ideas to you properly.

I think more of what I meant by the gross exxageration is how that veiw is seen by the non and psuedo competitive crowd in that it's a means of justifying the use of things that they don't agree have a favorable impact on gameplay. Speaking for myself, I'm pretty well in the middle, I play tournament and casual, and the only reason why I don't agree with the play to win mentality is that I've run into alot of people in the tournament scene that use it to justify them acting like a total *** to anyone they beat, even by one stock.

If the places I attended tourneys had the atmosphere of my casual groups, I woulden't be wanting from the tournament scene. I'm not saying everyone with said mentality acts like that, I'm saying alot of people take it too far and impliment in totally wrong, completely *******izing the atmosphere of the game.

It's really hard, but I try to fit in between the two groups and remain honorable at the tournaments. If I win I'm happy about it of course, but I talk to the guy I beat and try to figure out what level he's and and see if I can help him out, sometimes it turns out they're better than me most of the time or against other people, I just trumped them that one time. If I get beat, I try to talk to the guy as long as he's not all like "lol newb u shud stop plying yung link and use top teir".

I'm more worried about the attitude that mentality can bring than impact on the game play itself, I don't wavedash much because I don't like it, and don't need to with most chars I run, but if someone starts saying it's cheap, I go the distance and show them I don't need it to win.

I guess I'm just worried that the tourney scene would be a harsh place that no new people would want to try to break into because of the attitude that mentality likes to spawn.

 

[Takeshi245]

Gold, thanks for taking the time to really explain your thoughts, I appreciate it man, I really do. It helped me to understand why you feel like you do, and that's pretty important considering if I don't know that I can't even beging to explain my ideas to you properly.

I think more of what I meant by the gross exxageration is how that veiw is seen by the non and psuedo competitive crowd in that it's a means of justifying the use of things that they don't agree have a favorable impact on gameplay. Speaking for myself, I'm pretty well in the middle, I play tournament and casual, and the only reason why I don't agree with the play to win mentality is that I've run into alot of people in the tournament scene that use it to justify them acting like a total *** to anyone they beat, even by one stock.

If the places I attended tourneys had the atmosphere of my casual groups, I woulden't be wanting from the tournament scene. I'm not saying everyone with said mentality acts like that, I'm saying alot of people take it too far and impliment in totally wrong, completely *******izing the atmosphere of the game.

It's really hard, but I try to fit in between the two groups and remain honorable at the tournaments. If I win I'm happy about it of course, but I talk to the guy I beat and try to figure out what level he's and and see if I can help him out, sometimes it turns out they're better than me most of the time or against other people, I just trumped them that one time. If I get beat, I try to talk to the guy as long as he's not all like "lol newb u shud stop plying yung link and use top teir".

I'm more worried about the attitude that mentality can bring than impact on the game play itself, I don't wavedash much because I don't like it, and don't need to with most chars I run, but if someone starts saying it's cheap, I go the distance and show them I don't need it to win.

I guess I'm just worried that the tourney scene would be a harsh place that no new people would want to try to break into because of the attitude that mentality likes to spawn.

Don't worry. Not a lot of competitive players are like that. Jerks in the competitive community aren't so looked up to as well. I believe the competitive community should help each other out (which they do) to get better.

 

[NES n00b]

Veil. . . . you met jack *****. Everyone I met in a tourney besides a very select few are really nice.

The tourney community is great.

 

[veil222]

Eh, either way, I like both tourney and casual just because of the play styles. I'm gonna pwn some DDR now, can't get much cardio while playing smash.

 

[GreenKirby]

The honest answer - Who knows. To make it less likely to lag online? To balance the characters better? Who knows?

The ******* answer that I usually gives > - Because Sakurai was tried of people Dead Horse you jerks. But nooooooooooooooo! You still have to keep beating it. Just let it decompose in peace!

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

Beating the dead horse will help it decompose faster for an earlier release date!

 

[jupiter]

Now I've realised that some of the advanced techs from melee are being removed (L-cancel and wavedashing). Back in the day of melee these were all fun and good, they increased the gap between 1337 and /\/008. They separated man from boy.
However, with nintendo trying to bring in non gamers and the oline aspect of the game, I think the big N wants to make the learning curve more leiniant(sp?). Think about it, if WD and L cancel were in, 1337 players would abuse them online and just pwn noobs to an unfair extent.
Online would not be fun if you didnt learn these techs, and might take away from the game for some players.
please discuss


and btw i dont think you need to use WD to be good or that u suck if u dont (i personally dont) and i also dont think that noobs should be given special treatment.

what a hypocritical thing to say....You don't need WD to be good or that you suck w/o it, but it seperates the "men from the boys"?

And they didn't "remove" advanced techniques directly, they implemented a new physic to airdodging that eliminated WD via byproduct. In any case, a smart move, and makes this game breathe a new form of life into the series. You can execute anything after an aerial dodge, sounds perfect to me.

And what's with the whole symbols to spell out "leet" and "noob"? is your keyboard broken or something? Or does it somehow enhance some kind of higher sense of self-satisfaction of the segregation and classification of a gaming community? Do you find it necessary to establish or reinforce this separation that badly by spelling it out with symbols? Sad.

And note yourself: Lag-Cancel is still in. Not sure if you were at E-for-All, but sounds like you weren't, but if you fast-fell before you landed, you'll cut the lag time by half. L-Cancel, apparently, stands for Lag-Cancel, though "L Button Cancel" makes just as much sense, in which case, you're right, "L Button Cancel" is out, but "Lag Canceling" is still possible.

(blurb: Why not just say, "Lag Cancel" instead of "L-Cancel"? Isn't the whole point of initializing words so that you'd cut it down to one syllable? Yet "Lag" and "L" takes just as much time to say...makes no sense. Like many, I first thought "L-Cancel" stood for the L Button (or R Button: both are Shield buttons).)

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

what a hypocritical thing to say....You don't need WD to be good or that you suck w/o it, but it seperates the "men from the boys"?

And they didn't "remove" advanced techniques directly, they implemented a new physic to airdodging that eliminated WD via byproduct. In any case, a smart move, and makes this game breathe a new form of life into the series. You can execute anything after an aerial dodge, sounds perfect to me.

And what's with the whole symbols to spell out "leet" and "noob"? is your keyboard broken or something? Or does it somehow enhance some kind of higher sense of self-satisfaction of the segregation and classification of a gaming community? Do you find it necessary to establish or reinforce this separation that badly by spelling it out with symbols? Sad.

And note yourself: Lag-Cancel is still in. Not sure if you were at E-for-All, but sounds like you weren't, but if you fast-fell before you landed, you'll cut the lag time by half. L-Cancel, apparently, stands for Lag-Cancel, though "L Button Cancel" makes just as much sense, in which case, you're right, "L Button Cancel" is out, but "Lag Canceling" is still possible.

(blurb: Why not just say, "Lag Cancel" instead of "L-Cancel"? Isn't the whole point of initializing words so that you'd cut it down to one syllable? Yet "Lag" and "L" takes just as much time to say...makes no sense. Like many, I first thought "L-Cancel" stood for the L Button (or R Button: both are Shield buttons).)

*applause*

10 char

Really good stuff. Serious.

As for wavedashing sepperating the men from the boys, its a loose analogy but it does apply really,if you dont wavedash and you're not playing with people that do, then chances are you are not a good player ie a boy, but this just makes people feel like ***.

New game, new techs. 1 thing was removed and the new airdodge offers new possiblities. Tired of arguing? so am I

 

[LavisFiend]

The answer is simple;

"AT's" interfered with Sakurai's vision, so now he is taking great strides to try and keep the metagame exploit free.

See that?

2nd page, answers the major question, in one simple sentence...

How come this thread is still alive?

 

[Aceleeon]

i agree. thank you for saying that. thank you. it is a glitch. omg.

 

[LavisFiend]

i agree. thank you for saying that. thank you. it is a glitch. omg.

He didn't say it was a glitch.

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

Doesn't matter whether it's a glitch or not. It's still used in melee.

 

[Aceleeon]

I agree. even if we have these new glitches and problems. Im sure there will be ppl out there to help each other out.

 

[LavisFiend]

Doesn't matter whether it's a glitch or not. It's still used in melee.

Melee has nothing to do with Brawl...

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

Yeah, but isn't "it" wavedashing? Or should I have re-read the last few posts?

 

[NES n00b]

Exploits will be in Brawl. Get over it. Some moves, tatics, or abuse of physics will be better than other methods to try and win.

You guys got get out of the mindset of "I hope we all play without exploits so that the game is fair" and instead think "I will try to do my best in this game and will find as many good tatics as possible to my advantage."