My thoughts on why Advance Techniques were removed....

[OnyxVulpine]

So.. evening the gap.. I uh.. I guess the pros should be able to be even better if some of those techniques are..

Actually I don't know what I'm saying.

Noob = Can't do advanced techniques
Pro = Do those techniques like breathing

But if both do it like breathing than the noobs do get an advantage.. It may be a bit easier for pros in the beginning. There may be a smaller learning curve but a higher skill limit with all the new things implemented..

Don't know if what I'm saying makes sense or even.. matters..

-Onyx

 

[SuperLink9]

So what exactly is the status of these techniques for those who have played demoes? Are L-Cancelling and Wavedashing gone completely? Annoyingly, I was only just starting to be able to use them well...

Personally, I think it's very simple.

- Wavedashing and L-Cancelling are techniques that utilise glitches
- Brawl has simply been more ironed out
- These techniques are not mentioned on Smash Bros websites
- These techniques are not even mentioned in the enclosed instruction book

They're pretty much unofficial techniques aren't they? Nintendo didn't intend for them to be in the game. They were there because of oversights.

EDIT: Just noticed the posts about them not being a glitch, personally I hadn't seen them before on the site or in manuals, but oh well.

Who knows why they're gone then. It probably is because Nintendo want the n00bs to be able to fair better. :/

This annoys me.

EDIT2: By the way, I think everyone's being a bit overly harsh... The people who cannot do these techniques are not "noobs". They can still be good players, they just don't know "advanced techniques" (after all, they're called so for a reason)

And IMO, wavedashing looks pretty glitchy. I still don't remember it being mentioned on any sites or manuals.

Noobs are players who spam C-Stick smashes and don't know how to jump.

EDIT3:

From Smash Wiki:
When the tournament ruleset allowed items, aerial item catches during an air dodge were safer than grounded item catches. Wavedashing was accidentally discovered when Toadbanjoconker, a Smashboards veteran, attempted such a catch. Henceforth, wavedashing began to enter smashers' repertoires. Ironically, it didn't become necessary for top level competition until months later.

So it wasn't intended afterall. It's pretty much a glitch

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

There is still an L cancel.

Removing wavedashing doesn't bother me, and I actually like the new system. It'll save me from Azendashing, which I unfortunately do a fair bit.

But more to the point, there will be new glitches to exploit, and new techs to master. Removing WDing just changed the game a bit, but it by no means made the learning curve any less steep.

 

[error_alt_delete]

I think "advanced techs" as you all call them were removed for one reason. they wernt intended. I have seen this happen in other games before, it is a cycle.

1.new game comes out with unique play
2.game gets abused in so-so method
3.game makers adjust the game so it is played the way it was intended to be
4.adjusted sequal comes out
5.cycle repeats

I personaly am glad these are removed, it means that when I fight someone, it depends on raw skill, not on what they know of these so called"advanced techs". so good for nintendo for changeing that.

NOTE: I did know how to do things such as wave dashes and L-canceling(and was effective at controling them), so I know what I am talking about.

 

[Booshnig]

If I were a new smash bros player, I'd rather get beaten by a pro because he's better than me, and not because he knows about super secret exploits he read off the internet.
Things like wavedashing divide the userbase and make the game less approachable to casual players. Pros will still beat the casuals without wavedashing, but at least the casuals know they're not being beaten by arcane game exploits, and are able to understand why they're losing.

 

[Xenesis]

If I were a new smash bros player, I'd rather get beaten by a pro because he's better than me, and not because he knows about super secret exploits he read off the internet.
Things like wavedashing divide the userbase and make the game less approachable to casual players. Pros will still beat the casuals without wavedashing, but at least the casuals know they're not being beaten by arcane game exploits, and are able to understand why they're losing.

Thank you...I've been trying to figure out a way to say that in a way that's easily digestible.

 

[Blu-ninja]

im happy techs are gone.

happy happy ....JUST HAPPY.


now we can focus on our OWN skill.

and our OWN play style.

instead of just picking the most God fast character and "glitching" around.


Awkward characters like olimar PROVE that this time around theres gonna be ALOT more thought
into what actions we take in matches.



now we can pick characters because of how GOOD WE THINK THEY ARE, and how THEY match our playstyle, no because they can Hoopdy dash and Flooby cancel better than someone else.


ALSO NOTE:


i know my techs well.

and use them VERY often.
theyre fun n' all but...

you get my drift.

 

[cooler1339]

I don't think I ever land an attack without fast falling anyways, just makes it easier. My noob friends can hardly short hop, skill will always show. I will always abuse stuff like wavedashing, the noobs will leave after losing and the ones who will stay will learn. Always think ahead and you might even be able to fsmash someone with bowser.

Best players will win. MvC1 tops are war machine and probably gold war machine, but the best player uses hulk and venom, probably mid tier. Godly tactics is what seperates pros from noobs, not wavedashing.

 

[Ca$hoholic]

1. how do you use wavedashing anyway?

2. i dont know why everyone complain about them... we will be fine... -_-

 

[I.T.P]

I don't know what you guys are talking about, the game still has lots of ATs, just less glitched ones, like shine cancel and wavedash and land canceled specials.

you still have dash-dancing, DIing,FFing,Grab combos, dare I say chain grabs?(hope not), L-cancel(I'm not 100% sure if the gimpy method still works), DJC(at least for peach), FC, Tether recoveries, Bomb jump?(even harder now).

and you can be sure there'll be more glitches and ATs, they take time to find out...

 

[The Kirby Kong]

Its like you saying that Baseball shouldn't be competitive just because you can't hit the ball cause your facing a pro baseball player who throws the ball at 90 MPH. So you've gotta ***** and moan to these people to make it so that you can't throw it that fast, you get an infinate number of swings so we don't have to listen to you whine when you strike out all 5 times your up, and so on and so on. If Baseball can be competitive why can't Smash bros. You don't have to take part of it. I pity you tony.

Because Smash Bros is a casual game that just plays on the satire of 'serious' fighting games?

There is even enough evidence that Brawl will fix these 'advanced moves' because they go by Kirby's Air Ride's simplicity in terms of design.

 

[Xanderous]

That's not my point. Better players do win, that much is obvious. My point is a bit more subtle than that.

Why is Wavedashing the hate technique for anti-pros and casuals in Melee? Why not SHFFLing or DI or whatever? Because it's blatant, in your face, looks "unnatural" and has a skill wall to acquire the usage of said skill instead of a slope. (Eg, as a skill it is practically worthless until you can do all parts of it in unison, accurately while a lot of other skills in this game are useful at all levels or skill, but as your proficiency improves said skill becomes more powerful in play).

Obviously in Melee it isn't some super-powered instant win that's comparable to Snaking in MKDS which is required to compete, but the effect on the player base is the same - Endless flaming back and forth about whether Wavedashing/Snaking is cheating, newbies to the game being incredibly turned off because their opponents are kicking their arse - but also while doing something that confuses the hell out of them.

By limiting the game to "subtle" techniques (DI, Lag Cancelling, SHFFLs, etc.) it will serve to extend the life of the game because newbies jumping into Multiplayer online or whatever after just playing with their friend down the street won't be staring at the bafflement of something that looks so incredibly foreign to them; many will stop in disgust because they think that their opponent IS actually cheating and the like.

Likewise, the pros won't have to deal with constant attacks about silly things like that - you'll just have to argue against items and stages being banned.

You've got a point, but I don't think I'd intentionally handicap my play to please some ignorant nubs.

 

[I.T.P]

Because Smash Bros is a casual game that just plays on the satire of 'serious' fighting games?

There is even enough evidence that Brawl will fix these 'advanced moves' because they go by Kirby's Air Ride's simplicity in terms of design.

the opposite is the truth, would you be posting here if that was the case?

Smash bros is a competetive game that has the option of being a casual game as well, with choice between the two at will.

you can play 4 player FFAs, with items and whatnot, and grin like an idiot and pretend you're good at the game.

or you can play 1 on 1 matches with no items on levels with low randomness factors, and see if anyone can play as well as you, with millions of ATs to help you along the way.

 

[The Kirby Kong]

the opposite is the truth, would you be posting here if that was the case?

Smash bros is a competetive game that has the option of being a casual game as well, with choice between the two at will.

you can play 4 player FFAs, with items and whatnot, and grin like an idiot and pretend you're good at the game.

or you can play 1 on 1 matches with no items on levels with low randomness factors, and see if anyone can play as well as you, with millions of ATs to help you along the way.

You got it backwards. It's a casual game, but has the option to be competitive.

But it's competitive at such a level that every single multiplayer game can be competitive. People need to make up their own rules in order to play competitively, and that pretty much confirms that it's not meant to be competitive at all.

 

[I.T.P]

You got it backwards. It's a casual game, but has the option to be competitive.

But it's competitive at such a level that every single multiplayer game can be competitive. People need to make up their own rules in order to play competitively, and that pretty much confirms that it's not meant to be competitive at all.

how does using pre-designed game settings making it "play by their own rules" ?

If sakurai meant for smash to be allways Items on, he wouldn't have given us the choice of disabling them, if he meant for us to play time, he wouldn't have given us stock. if he meant for us to play banned stages with random disasters competetively, he wouldn't have given us stage select and random stage selection confinement.

as it is, every option in Melee clearly shows the game was intended to be played casually with items on very high and competetively with no items, and casually with all stages on, and competetively on simpler and less annoying stages. and the fact we even have a stage builder this time around shows he wants us to make our own hazard free stages, so we'll have a bigger selection for competetive play.

Smash was meant to be played both ways, and all info shows that. lots of Advanced Techniques are deliberate, like DI and Short hopping, and powershielding, and L-canceling in melee. and more...

 

[blayde_axel]

You got it backwards. It's a casual game, but has the option to be competitive.

But it's competitive at such a level that every single multiplayer game can be competitive. People need to make up their own rules in order to play competitively, and that pretty much confirms that it's not meant to be competitive at all.

Hmm... really... so, just because Smash is customizable, it's not meant to be played competitively? Cause that's what I just read.

But maybe, just maybe, it was made to be played the way you WANT it to be played! It sounds like it could work, but I'm not sure!

 

[Crispy4001]

This thread is just hilarious.

Players that utilize everything have come to terms with the fact that certain techs have been removed. Everyone else seems to be in denial that the many of the deadlier techs still remain.


If people would only better inform themselves with the E4all info perhaps we could talk about what Brawl to our knowledge is and not some fantasy of an advance tech free Smash Bros.

 

[cooler1339]

If there is a winner it is competitive.

 

[I.T.P]

This thread is just hilarious.

Players that utilize everything have come to terms with the fact that certain techs have been removed. Everyone else seems to be in denial that the many of the deadlier techs still remain.


If people would only better inform themselves with the E4all info perhaps we could talk about what Brawl to our knowledge is and not some fantasy of an advance tech free Smash Bros.

what E4ALL knowledge? I played brawl myself yesterday

 

[Crispy4001]

Speaking of which I.T.P, you said a page back that you're not sure if Gimpy's method of L canceling still works. Care to elaborate?

 

[Igneous42]

This thread is just hilarious.

Players that utilize everything have come to terms with the fact that certain techs have been removed. Everyone else seems to be in denial that the many of the deadlier techs still remain.


If people would only better inform themselves with the E4all info perhaps we could talk about what Brawl to our knowledge is and not some fantasy of an advance tech free Smash Bros.

I think what both sides fail to realize is that most advanced techs are used by casuals, just not as well as pro's. Think about it whats the main advanced tech that's always talked about? Wave dashing. Things like fast fall, crouch canceling, DI, and Short Hop are all used outside competitive smash too. I know before I came to these boards (which wasn't long ago) I didn't know much about the competitive smash scene. So I read the list of advanced techs and to my surprise knew almost all of them.

What Brawl did (as we know) different is so far took out a lot of the advanced techs that actually require technical skill.

 

[I.T.P]

Speaking of which I.T.P, you said a page back that you're not sure if Gimpy's method of L canceling still works. Care to elaborate?

Yes, I tried it, and I think it worked. but as it was on peach, in a 4 player FFA, and It's not as visible as FC, I'm not 100% sure.

I'm pretty confident it still works though.

 

[Crossjeremiah]

i heard a rumor L-canceling was still in

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

i heard a rumor L-canceling was still in

It's not a rumor. It has been confirmed.

 

[greenblob]

What I don't understand is why people are so opposed to "skill walls" in the first place. Yes, Smash should be intuitive, but why shouldn't technique be as much of a part of the game as mindgames? Look at what one might consider the most "intuitive" activities/professions out there: art and music. Both require years of training in technique alone, and they're almost the definition of intuition. Why shouldn't Smash be any different?

 

[Igneous42]

What I don't understand is why people are so opposed to "skill walls" in the first place. Yes, Smash should be intuitive, but why shouldn't technique be as much of a part of the game as mindgames? Look at what one might consider the most "intuitive" activities/professions out there: art and music. Both require years of training in technique alone, and they're almost the definition of intuition. Why shouldn't Smash be any different?

because smash isn't an art?

Though that's actually a pretty good point.

 

[Saltwater Gem]

Screw AT's, I say... some of us don't have time to learn and perfect intricate moves in video games and yet would still like to have semi-competitive matches...

 

[Igneous42]

Screw AT's, I say... some of us don't have time to learn and perfect intricate moves in video games and yet would still like to have semi-competitive matches...

Play with people your level?

I'm a casual I still get really competitive with my friends. Though it would be nice if I could go to a tournament and still do ok even if I didn't practice at least once a week.

 

[Kurizu208]

It's not that they are removed it's just new physics engine. plus l cancel is sorta still just different and you can wave land.

 

[greenblob]

Screw AT's, I say... some of us don't have time to learn and perfect intricate moves in video games and yet would still like to have semi-competitive matches...

I know! I wish I could be putting the smackdown on Ken right now. Screw training and effort and practice.

 

[Saltwater Gem]

I know! I wish I could be putting the smackdown on Ken right now. Screw training and effort and practice.

Okay, see here's the thing... I've got a job, I've got friends who do things other then play Smash Bros., I've got family, and I've got other hobbies... sitting in my room trying to get controller stick tilts and button combos down perfectly just so I can get my *** whooped slightly more gracefully on WiFi Connection just is not really worth it to me. If you're a skillful player, you should be able to win WITHOUT mutilating the physics engine against other players.

 

[greenblob]

No one's saying you should devote your life to Smash. But why can't you see that the person who plays more will probably be better at the game? If some new employee without any training and former experience got promoted above you, wouldn't you think it's unfair? Try using the same logic for Smash.

 

[Saltwater Gem]

No one's saying you should devote your life to Smash. But why can't you see that the person who plays more will probably be better at the game? If some new employee without any training and former experience got promoted above you, wouldn't you think it's unfair? Try using the same logic for Smash.

I'm not saying the person who plays more shouldn't be better, I'm saying it shouldn't be because you've mastered mutilating the physics engine in ways that a casual gamer doesn't have time for. And that job example was awful.

 

[Crispy4001]

Okay, see here's the thing... I've got a job, I've got friends who do things other then play Smash Bros., I've got family, and I've got other hobbies... sitting in my room trying to get controller stick tilts and button combos down perfectly just so I can get my *** whooped slightly more gracefully on WiFi Connection just is not really worth it to me. If you're a skillful player, you should be able to win WITHOUT mutilating the physics engine against other players.

Being a fairly good Melee player really doesn't require much time. Not much practice either. You could be comfortable with nearly all the advanced techs (most of which have nothing to do with manipulating physics) in a week or two if you really tried. The practice barrier is a MULTITUDES less than something like Virtual Fighter 5 or Soul Calibur 2.

Yet for some reason, people complain way more about Melee's learning curve. I don't get it. It really doesn't take much to learn how to stop flailing like a noob, and learn how to start putting up a good fight. There's a ton of little quick, easy things you can pick up on that will almost instantly make you more formidable.


On a related note, being skilled is all about seeing patterns and utilizing them to your advantage - that goes both for reading your opponents and reading the fighting engine itself. Stubbornly ignoring the need to be fluent in the latter is a fool's mistake.

 

[DarkDragoon]

>.> Well...
It doesn't take much time to learn to wave dash with 1 character.
In fact...if you do it right, it only takes a few minutes.
Then memorize the timing, and you'll be zipping around in no time!
But really, casual players shouldn't worry much about it, since the "Tournament" and "Casuals" barely ever mix.
-DD

 

[ace_skoot]

Well melee was sort of accidentally the best fighting game ever made, the pros simply take advantage of all coding in the game, even if it wasn't exactly intended to be used in that way, using it is simply wise, I mean games just like sports evolve, people come up with something no one has seen before, it doesn't make it wrong just because the original creator never conceived .

 

[Saltwater Gem]

For the 10 minutes it might take to learn to execute one of the physics exploits, it takes months to actually be able to implement it in game.

My overall point was, I would like to be able to join random WiFi matches without hopelessly wandering into a big physics exploit fest. If I'm gonna catch an ***-whooping, I'd prefer it the regular way.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

*Cries* The Brawl Boards should be locked for everyone until they wisen up a little.

 

[flyinfilipino]

For the 10 minutes it might take to learn to execute one of the physics exploits, it takes months to actually be able to implement it in game.

My overall point was, I would like to be able to join random WiFi matches without hopelessly wandering into a big physics exploit fest. If I'm gonna catch an ***-whooping, I'd prefer it the regular way.

Wi-fi with anyone probably won't be as you described. And people are going to beat you if you're not good enough to beat them, and that's that.

 

[greenblob]

If you don't like the job analogy, then try a sports one. Why should you expect to play football at an even level with a professional player?

Also, what is an "exploit?" It's the use of intended game mechanics in an unintended/unforeseen way. So... I guess if your playing style or your combos weren't "intended," they're exploits, right?