My opinion on what happened with customs

[ADHD]

I want to say first and foremost that I am not completely anti-customs. I am more so in the favor of banning them, but mostly only 60-40.

What happened that day at KTAR when I decided to go custom villager was that I was destroying people in teams with the character and my diddy was rusty and I had poor results with him in friendlies. Villager was my best option despite faultering at the end.

Second, I want to clarify that the strategy was broken and I did not commit to it enough. I would get leads and then blow the kill. Something else.. What people fail to understand is that my villager is actually good onstage. If you watch the videos I did make proper reads sometimes and impressed myself. I have been playing the character silently without customs for months. My vilIager is pretty good without customs as well or planking. I played with customs for the first time this week!

You can say that you can beat it if your character has unique projectiles or a reflector and I would agree partially, but most matchups would be destroyed by the strat. Balloons are super safe if used intelligently, camping does take concentration and pressure however. I had to think way more than people gave me credit for.

Now, enough about that. I think that customs don't balance the game, they provide new options but as can be seen by villager, mii brawler, Rosalina, etc, they make for some abusive strategies. People did not note enough how powerful luma warp was for dabuz. But still! Diddy kong is the best. They do not affect diddy kong's performances at all. I think they should remain legal until after EVO and then a decision should be born. Let Evo be a learning part of the process.

 

[RanserSSF4]

i was thinking for a while, why not just ban the broken custom moves and keep the more balanced customs un-banned?

Villager is a good example of that. He has good customs, but he has some that are banworthy.

We will have to wait and see around EVO 2015

 

[LancerStaff]

Hm. Kinda early to say it's broken, don't you think?

But eh. I like the idea of customs, but they weren't balanced at all. I knew from the start that Villager's moves were going to cause some controversy.

 

[MOI-ARI]

The game's campy enough as it is. They will most likely be banned after EVO unfortunately. (Also due to the pre-existing problem with unlocking the moves\tranfering the moves being "time consuming" so im told)

This is speaking from a "spectator's" point of view.

~but really, its a tournament do whatcha gotta do to win. Custom Villager Its all fair game as of now*sigh*,or until something is done to balance it or enough people find a way around it.

 

[UnownLegend]

I'm glad that you are taking a pretty balanced approach to this. I think that is the best course of action, see what happens after we've played with customs for a couple months and have a major tournament under our belts with customs and THEN we can talk about banning any of them.

People up in arms about such and such custom and calling for its ban after seeing it ONE TIME (between airbender dong, your performance and there recent heavy skull bash controversy) are being ludicrous and, in fact, cancerous to the game. I don't care if you are a pro or some random user on smashboards or r/smashbros, if you are already calling for a ban for certain customs you are doing far more harm to the game than good.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Now people agree with me.

Customs are fine, but Villager's (especially Timber Counter) need to have something done about them.

And for the record, I held this opinion before KTAR happened.

I'm glad that you are taking a pretty balanced approach to this. I think that is the best course of action, see what happens after we've played with customs for a couple months and have a major tournament under our belts with customs and THEN we can talk about banning any of them.

People up in arms about such and such custom and calling for its ban after seeing it ONE TIME (between airbender dong, your performance and there recent heavy skull bash controversy) are being ludicrous and, in fact, cancerous to the game. I don't care if you are a pro or some random user on smashboards or r/smashbros, if you are already calling for a ban for certain customs you are doing far more harm to the game than good.

Just because there have not been many large scale tournaments with customs legal, does not mean there have not been smaller ones. We have had 6 months to test customs, it is not unreasonable for us to have formed opinions on them by now.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I don't believe anyone custom should be banned. If you're going to ban custom moves of certain characters you might as well just ban that character.

 

[Neoleo21]

All customs should be allowed, I want to use good falco and marth in competitive.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I don't believe anyone custom should be banned. If you're going to ban custom moves of certain characters you might as well just ban that character.

That doesn't make any sense. If the community collectively determines that a certain custom move is a problem (which we haven't yet because we can't agree on anything, but I'm just being hypothetical), then why should we ban the character when we can just ban the move? I think of it like stages. Fox was broken on Temple in Melee, but we don't ban Fox. We just ban Temple.

 

[UnownLegend]

Just because there have not been many large scale tournaments with customs legal, does not mean there have not been smaller ones. We have had 6 months to test customs, it is not unreasonable for us to have formed opinions on them by now.

A fair point, but I still can't understand how anybody can reach the opinion that customs are bad when they haven't yet proven broken, every single one of those cases i mentioned specifically that people overreacted about, a counter was found for the strategy (maybe excluding heavy skullbash, just due to the newness of the strat, but plenty has been said about what can be done about it) I just cant fathom how you could find customs to be bad for the game after all the evidence we've seen to the contrary. If there has been time to form opinions about customs, there has been time to try them out enough to know if they are going to break the game and that just isn't happening

 

[RanserSSF4]

That doesn't make any sense. If the community collectively determines that a certain custom move is a problem (which we haven't yet because we can't agree on anything, but I'm just being hypothetical), then why should we ban the character when we can just ban the move? I think of it like stages. Fox was broken on Temple in Melee, but we don't ban Fox. We just ban Temple.

i feel just ban the customs that are broken or break the game, and keep the ones that don't break the game or as broken un-banned! i love customs for lots of reasons, but it's agreeable that some are very broken!

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

That doesn't make any sense. If the community collectively determines that a certain custom move is a problem (which we haven't yet because we can't agree on anything, but I'm just being hypothetical), then why should we ban the character when we can just ban the move? I think of it like stages. Fox was broken on Temple in Melee, but we don't ban Fox. We just ban Temple.

By banning the custom you're saying this character must play with less customs than everyone else. If we all can't have access to the same amount of customs you might as well ban the character.

 

[UnownLegend]

i feel just ban the customs that are broken or break the game, and keep the ones that don't break the game or as broken un-banned! i love customs for lots of reasons, but it's agreeable that some are very broken!

Really?
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary_of_fighting_games#Broken

Broken refers to both characters and moves. The reason why a move or a character are called broken is because they are so powerful/advantageous that none of the cast has an answer for it, and therefore is game-breaking.

also this is a a very good point brought up later in the definition

This term unfortunately gets taken out of context mainly due to two things. Firstly, during the early days of a new release because players haven't yet found a counter for it. The other reason why this term is taken out of context is because most players label certain characters/moves as strong even though they are not necessarily unbeatable. (Broken in this sense is synonymous with cheap.)

Another meaning for broken can be something that's so good that there is no way to beat, defend or do anything against it. It becomes something that is game breaking, which leads to the character being banned in tournaments at times.

So with that in mind, please tell me, I'l love to know, can we JUSTIFIABLY call anything broken right now? Is there a strategy found through customs that cant be countered?

Heck, Meta Knight was OP in brawl by a lot but he wasn't broken

 

[Jehtt]

It's too early to call anything "broken" right now. I don't care if you got far with the strategy or not. You beat a lot of people who were unfamiliar with it, then lost to someone who only had to think for a minute to beat it. There's no point to be made based off of one tournament. Go place high in more tournaments, consistently, using only this strategy. Then maybe we can talk about "broken."

 

[LancerStaff]

By banning the custom you're saying this character must play with less customs than everyone else. If we all can't have access to the same amount of customs you might as well ban the character.

The difference between not allowing a custom to be used and a custom that's unusable is minor, and most customs are garbage anyway.

Customs aren't even being balanced for anyway. We're basically modding the game for the sake of enjoyment at this point.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

The difference between not allowing a custom to be used and a custom that's unusable is minor, and most customs are garbage anyway.

Customs aren't even being balanced for anyway. We're basically modding the game for the sake of enjoyment at this point.

I would consider moding the game for the sake of enjoyment PM. We're expanding the metagame and adding more diversity.

 

[Bjurrse]

I still think it is to early to yell "broooken!" At some custom moves. Let the custom meta play out until after evo, then we can talk. And if we are to ban certain moves, what stops us from banning diddys standard side-b, or Zss standard up-b? I bet people would cry about those moves, if they where customs. Imho if we absolutely have to go the road of banning certain customs, no normal specials should be safe.

 

[Helkulkhamen]

I want to say first and foremost that I am not completely anti-customs. I am more so in the favor of banning them, but mostly only 60-40.

What happened that day at KTAR when I decided to go custom villager was that I was destroying people in teams with the character and my diddy was rusty and I had poor results with him in friendlies. Villager was my best option despite faultering at the end.

Second, I want to clarify that the strategy was broken and I did not commit to it enough. I would get leads and then blow the kill. Something else.. What people fail to understand is that my villager is actually good onstage. If you watch the videos I did make proper reads sometimes and impressed myself. I have been playing the character silently without customs for months. My vilIager is pretty good without customs as well or planking. I played with customs for the first time this week!

You can say that you can beat it if your character has unique projectiles or a reflector and I would agree partially, but most matchups would be destroyed by the strat. Balloons are super safe if used intelligently, camping does take concentration and pressure however. I had to think way more than people gave me credit for.

Now, enough about that. I think that customs don't balance the game, they provide new options but as can be seen by villager, mii brawler, Rosalina, etc, they make for some abusive strategies. People did not note enough how powerful luma warp was for dabuz. But still! Diddy kong is the best. They do not affect diddy kong's performances at all. I think they should remain legal until after EVO and then a decision should be born. Let Evo be a learning part of the process.

I'd just like to direct attention over to JTAILS' post on Reddit over here. How can we as a community possibly consider this villager strategy "broken" if said strategy (employed by ADHD who had been playing regular villager for months beforehand) lost to someone who on the spot decided to pick a character they've never used before in a tournament to counter it and won. That's not a broken strategy, that's not even a good strategy. Yes, villager becomes extremely difficult to approach in this situation, but all it takes is any character who can get a percent lead on villager in the neutral game (which really is not very hard) in order to completely invalidate it. If a villager stalls and camps while he is at a percent deficit, then he is shooting himself in the foot.

Granted, it's not the most exciting or interesting strategy to watch, but finding something unappealing to watch is never a good grounds for banning something. I find Kirby annoying to watch because of his character's obnoxious voice - should we ban Kirby? (Hint: no). And even if this strategy does shut down some characters (Little Mac?), that does not mean the strategy is broken, it just means villager hard-counters those characters, and anyone intelligent will simply pick another character versus villager. These kind of matchup considerations are a standard part of the metagame.

Customs will not result in perfect balance between every single character, but they certainly allow some characters to enjoy a massive boost in viability (Mii Brawler, Wii Fit Trainer, Donkey Kong, and Palutena being the most obvious), and even though the top tiers do get a bit better, the competitive gap between, say, a Rosalina with customs and a Donkey Kong with customs is much smaller than a Rosalina without customs fighting a Donkey Kong without customs. Customs will increase character variety in tournaments, which is only a good thing.

I will say this though: I do not hold any ill will towards ADHD for employing this villager strategy, in fact I applaud him for it. He did what anyone who thinks customs are broken should do: go to a tournament and use that strategy. Prove that it's broken. Prove that it's unbeatable. Prove that there is no way to deal with it. Of course in this situation we found out that there are, in fact, ways to deal with customs villager, and quite reliable ones at that! But even if ADHD had placed first, we'd need more than one tournament won with a surprise strategy to show that said strategy is too strong to be allowed.

 

[Timbers]

(employed by ADHD who had been playing regular villager for months beforehand) lost to someone who on the spot decided to pick a character they've never used before

Read the post on Reddit again. He said he's never used Pika in tournaments, not that he has never used the character. ADHD also has said in this thread that he decided to play Villager in tournament "on the spot," despite only just having started playing with customs. Both players were inexperienced with these playstyles and were sort of just "winging it." Your post structure seems a little biased, leading into:

Of course in this situation we found out that there are, in fact, ways to deal with customs villager, and quite reliable ones at that! But even if ADHD had placed first, we'd need more than one tournament won with a surprise strategy to show that said strategy is too strong to be allowed.

this is borderline hypocritical. you first say that there are definitely ways to beat customs villager as shown by this single tournament, and then say that even if nobody beat customs villager, we should not hold this single tournament accountable as it's only because it's new and unexplored. Nobody is discrediting Puffster's Brawler for doing so well, and yet a lot of people lost to it because nobody has played against Brawler. I think ADHD made it very clear that he has only just started playing with customs, and acknowledged that he had a lot of holes in his strategy. If we were to give players time to defeat a strategy, it only makes sense that we should give the strategist time to perfect his style.

To top it all off, ADHD did get 5th at this tournament. That's not bad placing at all, and the people he lost to were Puffster (aka nobody knows how to play against Brawler), and Jtails 2 stocked ADHD's Diddy in dittos, which could very well mean that Jtails and ADHD have a noticeable skillgap.

This is not to advocate banning customs or anything, but everyone is talking in absolutes over something that happened a single time, with flukes and random variables widely present. A lot of what happened at this tournament was due to people fumbling around in the unknown of customs being new in general.This strategy could very well be a viable one. Just because it's "boring" doesn't mean it's without potential.

 

[UnownLegend]

^That's fair, I agree with your points, and i think it just further shows we all need to calm the heck down and just keep playing. @ ADHD , should he choose to, could keep working on his villager strat, and people can work on counters to that strat, and we'll see what happens! But sweeping statements one way or another at this point aren't helping anything.

Really, i think the problem is all the people calling for banning these customs. You get people, myself included, put on the defensive in a big way because we don't want to see any customs banned, especially without sufficient evidence, so we resort to extreme statements too :/

 

[AnchorTea]

What we need to do is see what happens at EVO and then see the results. We shouldn't jump to any conclusions. It is still too early.

 

[BestTeaMaker]

So, not sure how many times I've repeated myself here on several boards, but here I go again.

Customs were never intended for "balance". Sakurai outright stated that these were not all balanced (This statement is a little fuzzy). Their true purpose is that they change our perception of that character's abilities to be viable, whether to play as for fun or in a competitive environment.

Let me ask, how many people did you see using Donkey Kong and placing high at Apex and pre-Apex? Probably very very few, to the point where only character specialists like DKWill were using him. Now, when we consider moves like Kong Cyclone, suddenly people want to try him out. One simple move changed our perception of him, but DK himself hasn't changed much. None of his aerials changed, none of his neutrals changed, none of his grabs changed. But when we see one improvement to a character's moveset, suddenly we see a new potential in that character as a whole.

Sometimes customs can help improve an already strong ability of a character. Rosalina's Shooting Star Bit and Luma Teleport helps to make her already-strong spacing game even stronger. Paralayzing Needles gives Sheik an even stronger shield-pressure game. But an even bigger and noticeable difference is that customs can help overcome what used to be a weakeness. Charizard's Dragon Rush gives him a powerful horizontal attack that doesn't end up as a kamikaze attack if missed or shielded. Lightweight practically removes endmove lag on a lot of Palutena's attacks and gives her a powerful rushdown game.

But the biggest most important thing is that it can help tailor a character to a player's needs and give him more options to play as. And having options is how you keep competitive games alive. What people are proposing is to literally take away options of character choice and matchup. Not only that, you are limiting the use of a character and are gimping that character's potential in tournament play. And that is Smash 4's biggest advantage. Smash 4 has the largest roster of characters in the series. When these characters are given options that help to increase their perception of being good, you're gonna see variety in that tournament.

That doesn't mean automatically that you'll see Little Mac or Villager take the gold at EVO. When it boils down to it, the better player will always win. Sometimes you'll see a result where a person places higher than normal, but that's one tournament out of hundreds. Customs only change 4 moves out of a character's entire moveset. What that character is able to do with those custom moves AND their already existing moveset is all on the player. Just because a player is able to spam Kong Cyclone doesn't mean that he's good at Smash 4. A strong player will understand each move's properties and learn how to counter them, whether it be changing how you play or even switching moves that better deal with the issue.

Stagnation is the worst thing that can happen in a competitive meta. Already we have an issue where players just default to playing on Smashville because they feel "comfortable" or feel "salty" on losing on a "neutral" stage, while ignoring the other 12+ potential stages that could actually help you win just as fairly. Are we really going to ban moves because we're afraid of what COULD happen? Tell me how you can possibly tell how the meta will move on in the future. It's not healthy that we are poised to banned things just because we think they are potentially "harmful" to the game. If it's harmful, then prove it. Show me that it will break the meta. Only then we can firmly decide how to advance this game.

Anyways, thanks for reading this spiel on customs. Smash 4 is the first game I'm getting competitively involved in. I'm inspired by the spirit of this game and this series, so this means a lot to me.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So, not sure how many times I've repeated myself here on several boards, but here I go again.

Customs were never intended for "balance". Sakurai outright stated that these were not all balanced.

Didn't @Thinkaman debunk that?

 

[BestTeaMaker]

Didn't @Thinkaman debunk that?

I think the quote, now that I went to search for it, was more about Sakurai not wanting to have customs on the "For Anyone" mode due to it being not balanced, but I believe this was more because he was concerned about people not having the moves against someone who does have the move. I may have misappropriated this quote and idea.

I do recall @Thinkaman wrote about customs, but in a different type of balance. He mentioned that it was more about how lower-tier character benefited from custom moves a lot more than higher-tier characters. However, he later saw that for some characters, there wasn't too much of a change in how they moved. In his most recent tier list comparing customs and non-customs, you can see that the top 5 characters don't really change tiers. They may change places with each other, but Diddy and Sheik are still definitely on top.

The overall point I wanted to make is that customs change our perceptions of that character. They don't necessarily automatically make them good. It just gives them tools that allows us to see them as good.

 

[Piford]

Jtails 2 stocked ADHD's Diddy in dittos, which could very well mean that Jtails and ADHD have a noticeable skillgap.

ADHD beat Jtails in Diddy Dittos at Collision XI. They are players who are around the same skill level with no noticeable gap.

We definitely can ban customs, but I think @Jtails said it best here

I'm open to the community looking into custom moves that should be disallowed, but there needs to be some kind of rubric for making these choices. So far there hasn't been anything game breaking in my opinion.

We can't ban customs that just look OP, or beat people based off their initial impressions. We need to ban them specifically if they ruin or over centralize the game. Sure there are some good custom moves, but that's the point. If all the custom moves were worse than default there'd be no point in using them. The best part about customs is figuring out which moveset is going to be best in which matchups.

Also, if we need to make our ruleset back to 3 stock because kill are happening earlier, we should definitely do it. We can't change EVO's stock and time count, but we could change other tournaments rulesets.

 

[Piford]

I think the quote, now that I went to search for it, was more about Sakurai not wanting to have customs on the "For Anyone" mode due to it being not balanced, but I believe this was more because he was concerned about people not having the moves against someone who does have the move. I may have misappropriated this quote and idea.

This is the most misunderstood quote used against custom. He was referring to how veteran players would have an unfair advantage with having better equipment than newer players.

Edit: Sorry for the double post, I meant to just add this to my last post but my hand slipped.

 

[Timbers]

ADHD beat Jtails in Diddy Dittos at Collision XI. They are players who are around the same skill level with no noticeable gap.

Google search tells me that happened back in December? Four months ago? Idk, That's a pretty long time ago. Anti beating Dabuz in GF, even.

 

[BestTeaMaker]

This is the most misunderstood quote used against custom. He was referring to how veteran players would have an unfair advantage with having better equipment than newer players.

Edit: Sorry for the double post, I meant to just add this to my last post but my hand slipped.

Yeah, I remember now. I knew it was something to do with the unlock system more than the actual moves/equipment themselves.

 

[Piford]

Google search tells me that happened back in December? Four months ago? Idk, That's a pretty long time ago. Anti beating Dabuz in GF, even.

It was in January, but 3 months isn't enough to make one of the best Brawl and now Smash 4 players suddenly not on the same skill level as other people. Jtails did better than ADHD at the tournament, but they are still on a similar skill level

Yeah, I remember now. I knew it was something to do with the unlock system more than the actual moves/equipment themselves.

Yeah I've seen that quote thrown around a lot recently to be used against customs. If customs weren't meant to be balanced, Sakurai wouldn't have nerfed Power Bow and Buffed Distant Thunder in the one balance patch we had.

 

[Raijinken]

In Sakurai's quote's defense, if you use "Customizations" fully, then there isn't a guarantee it's fair. I've got Quick-batter, Home Run Bat gear, and No-Flinch Smash. And due to how the system is set up, there's no way to prevent me (online) from using those instead of just the moves. And that's probably the real trick - customizations aren't really fair, but custom moves by all reasonable analysis are. (Also, they nerfed Dragon Rush in the balance patch as well).

And as @ BestTeaMaker mentioned above, there is a LOT to say for any eye-catcher changes/options. If Kong Cyclone is perceived as so good that it draws more players to learn DK and his matchups, we help negate some of the tier bias that inevitably happens (players will pick by tier, resulting in more development for the high-tiers than the low-tiers). Past games show it pretty well - a lot of once-bad characters can prove themselves very strong when given further experimentation.

Dota uses that strategy in balancing sometimes, too - some hero just on the tip of the metagame (or outside it entirely) will get a small buff here or there, and suddenly every team shows up to TI4 running Skywrath Mage out of the blue because teams finally notice his strengths. It's really a pretty good way to keep a fluid meta, even if changes (if any) are minute.

 

[CommanderPepper]

I'm okay with custom moves even if it will result in a game that isn't balanced. A game can be fun and competitively engaging and not be balanced. What's not fun is broken elements that make a game dull. We need time to determine if there are any truly broken elements or if there are counter strategies in the game. I agree with ADHD, let the game breath. Players need time to discover strategies/tech with their characters.

 

[Venks]

I want to say first and foremost that I am not completely anti-customs. I am more so in the favor of banning them, but mostly only 60-40.

What happened that day at KTAR when I decided to go custom villager was that I was destroying people in teams with the character and my diddy was rusty and I had poor results with him in friendlies. Villager was my best option despite faultering at the end.

Second, I want to clarify that the strategy was broken and I did not commit to it enough. I would get leads and then blow the kill. Something else.. What people fail to understand is that my villager is actually good onstage. If you watch the videos I did make proper reads sometimes and impressed myself. I have been playing the character silently without customs for months. My vilIager is pretty good without customs as well or planking. I played with customs for the first time this week!

You can say that you can beat it if your character has unique projectiles or a reflector and I would agree partially, but most matchups would be destroyed by the strat. Balloons are super safe if used intelligently, camping does take concentration and pressure however. I had to think way more than people gave me credit for.

Now, enough about that. I think that customs don't balance the game, they provide new options but as can be seen by villager, mii brawler, Rosalina, etc, they make for some abusive strategies. People did not note enough how powerful luma warp was for dabuz. But still! Diddy kong is the best. They do not affect diddy kong's performances at all. I think they should remain legal until after EVO and then a decision should be born. Let Evo be a learning part of the process.

I've been playing against this set since release on Japanese 3DS and it is far from broken. It's hard to play against for some characters, but that's just bad matchups. All Smash games have bad matchups.

Also you can't just lose a tournament and declare the strategy you used broken. That's not what broken means.

 

[Moola]

So is nobody listening to what hes saying? This isn't the first time a high profile player has been for the most part against customs M2k,MVD and even Esam who benefited from it thinks its not necessary. Even though they aren't the end all be all I think it would be ridiculous not to hear their points. Also to the people who are saying since he lost it doesn't mean its broken, he just said himself he didn't stick to the strategy which means if he could he probably could've won with the broken strategy. I personally think customs are awkward and don't really balance much but give characters more jank or only slightly better options. At most if your character is lets say low tier he could move to mid-low noting groundbreaking.

 

[Piford]

So is nobody listening to what hes saying? This isn't the first time a high profile player has been for the most part against customs M2k,MVD and even Esam who benefited from it thinks its not necessary. Even though they aren't the end all be all I think it would be ridiculous not to hear their points. Also to the people who are saying since he lost it doesn't mean its broken, he just said himself he didn't stick to the strategy which means if he could he probably could've won with the broken strategy. I personally think customs are awkward and don't really balance much but give characters more jank or only slightly better options. At most if your character is lets say low tier he could move to mid-low noting groundbreaking.

M2K is fine with custom moves, just not villager's custom moves.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I feel like one strategy, maybe a year or two down the road, might be drawing a line in the sand between "high tier characters" who don't need customs to be competitively viable and "everyone else" who has a chance to narrow the gap with custom moves.

Characters like Rosalina & Luma getting even more powerful from customs when she's already insanely good (and mind-numbingly boring to watch) makes that gap just totally impossible to close for most of the cast.

 

[Moola]

M2K is fine with custom moves, just not villager's custom moves.

Yea but its one of those things where if you ban 1 customs then you should ban all of them because an argument could be made about any custom being broken and thus creating random tournaments with random banned customs and creates a broken system of what is and isn't allowed

 

[Piford]

Yea but its one of those things where if you ban 1 customs then you should ban all of them because an argument could be made about any custom being broken and thus creating random tournaments with random banned customs and creates a broken system of what is and isn't allowed

That's such flawed logic. You can hardly make an argument about any custom being broken right now and if one is that does mean the hundreds of others aren't. You probably could make a case about some default moves being broken before you could make a case about most custom moves. All or nothing is just horrible logic. Like we don't ban Smashville because 75m is broken just because they are both default stages and if one default stage is broken that much mean all of them are.

 

[Moola]

That's such flawed logic. You can hardly make an argument about any custom being broken right now and if one is that does mean the hundreds of others aren't. You probably could make a case about some default moves being broken before you could make a case about most custom moves. All or nothing is just horrible logic. Like we don't ban Smashville because 75m is broken just because they are both default stages and if one default stage is broken that much mean all of them are.

stages =/= custom moves and what default moves are broken? Last Time a checked there are no moves that have awkward winboxes (DK) ridiculously early kill options (MK,Pikachu) or broken stalling (Villager) The point is customs don't really Improve the meta it changes it but for the most part not for the best. Stages are banned for having, ridiculous hazards, walkoffs or transformations. We make bans of whats playable and Stages are universally agreed upon. Imagine somebody like dkwill using his tornado up b and windox punch to win something like CEO and then going to Evo where both moves are banned makes no sense

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

stages =/= custom moves and what default moves are broken? Last Time a checked there are no moves that have awkward winboxes (DK) ridiculously early kill options (MK,Pikachu) or broken stalling (Villager) The point is customs don't really Improve the meta it changes it but for the most part not for the best. Stages are banned for having, ridiculous hazards, walkoffs or transformations. We make bans of whats playable and Stages are universally agreed upon. Imagine somebody like dkwill using his tornado up b and windox punch to win something like CEO and then going to Evo where both moves are banned makes no sense

You really need to look into what qualifies as "broken", and also what qualifies as a viable stage.

 

[Moola]

You really need to look into what qualifies as "broken", and also what qualifies as a viable stage.

So a Pikachu skull bash killing at 44% isnt broken? And having a stage with walkoffs,Ridiculous hazards and stages that promote camping are viable? Please explain to me how pyrosphere(without 8 player smash) 75mm or Guar plains are viable