My opinion on what happened with customs

[Roukiske]

Gonna have to agree with some people here saying that there should never be moves that are banned. It feels rather odd to ban something due to 'balance'. I understand banning game breaking glitches and all though.

Custom moves could have really been less of an issue had the development team planned correctly. First of all, setting them should have been simple as pie, if anything a mode where there was no equipment, but changeable moves. Second would be to change glaring issues of moves IF they arise (and I mean GLARING and I ain't talkin about patching the game every 2 weeks, more like 2 patches a year max). Acquiring them kind of sucks, but I guess I understand where they were coming from and hey, it could have been worse.

So... the first issue could be fixed in like... 1 hour of programming. Seriously, Nintendo could temporarily hire me for like a day for $0 and I'd have that done and patched through. The second issue is dependent on the high level community. Who's to say Nintendo isn't already doing any of this? Who knows, but really, things like this should be a set quality standard.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

That, however, relies on the assumption that custom moves were designed with the balance of the game in mind as much as the defaults were.

Who cares?

Seriously, why should we give a damn about whether they were designed with the balance of the game in mind? The end result is that for the most part, customs are a clear improvement. Are a few really strong? Sure! Just like there are a few normal moves that are ridiculously strong, like Monkey Flip, Quick Attack, Boost Kick, and Diddy's Uair. I don't care. Evaluate them on a case-by-case basis. See if anything is actually broken. The designer intent is entirely speculation and we have far better things to base our decision on. Even if it weren't speculation, I see no reason to go from "they didn't design customs to be balanced" to "therefore we shouldn't use customs" when it turns out that customs are, for the most part, phenomenally well-balanced!

And while we're speculating, never mind that by all indications, they were designed with the balance of the game in mind. Check out Jumbo Hoops and how they shore up WFT's most significant weakness. Look at how, for most of the top tiers, their best specials are the defaults, or at least their alts have some significant tradeoffs. Look at how many customs seem to be basically designed to screw over Luma, one of the most polarizing elements of the game. Bowser's customs are mostly bad, but the two relevant ones both shore up his most significant weakness, his inability to escape from juggles. Luma Warp does very little for the matchups Rosalina dominates and a whole lot for the matchups Rosalina fails in, leading to a less polarized spread. I'm sure I could keep going, or you could just read any number of posts by Ampharos or Thinkaman.

 

[Unknownkid]

I guess they don't call you Smash Debater for nothing.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I guess they don't call you Smash Debater for nothing.

Post number for a 2008 kid = pretty typical
Word count for a 2008 kid = ****ing insane



Seriously though, if I don't have good reasons for believing things, I won't believe them. And, consequently, I tend to have good reasons for things I believe. And if you disagree, well, I'd like to hear your reasons. And if your reasons are bad, you're gonna hear it from me.

 

[Rikkhan]

kinda offtopic but putting smogon as example is really a bad idea, yes some smogon rules are annoying but overall is way better, there is some really broken stuff in pokemon that comparatively makes look brawl MK as nothing. Also offtopic, ForGlory is similar to pokemon battlespot, they are semi-competitive, fun to play but not optimal (frankly pokemon 3v3 singles is terrible)

 

[guedes the brawler]

Shiek > diddy Kong

customs actually buff shiek too.

 

[LimitCrown]

Who cares?

Seriously, why should we give a damn about whether they were designed with the balance of the game in mind? The end result is that for the most part, customs are a clear improvement. Are a few really strong? Sure! Just like there are a few normal moves that are ridiculously strong, like Monkey Flip, Quick Attack, Boost Kick, and Diddy's Uair. I don't care. Evaluate them on a case-by-case basis. See if anything is actually broken. The designer intent is entirely speculation and we have far better things to base our decision on. Even if it weren't speculation, I see no reason to go from "they didn't design customs to be balanced" to "therefore we shouldn't use customs" when it turns out that customs are, for the most part, phenomenally well-balanced!

And while we're speculating, never mind that by all indications, they were designed with the balance of the game in mind. Check out Jumbo Hoops and how they shore up WFT's most significant weakness. Look at how, for most of the top tiers, their best specials are the defaults, or at least their alts have some significant tradeoffs. Look at how many customs seem to be basically designed to screw over Luma, one of the most polarizing elements of the game. Bowser's customs are mostly bad, but the two relevant ones both shore up his most significant weakness, his inability to escape from juggles. Luma Warp does very little for the matchups Rosalina dominates and a whole lot for the matchups Rosalina fails in, leading to a less polarized spread. I'm sure I could keep going, or you could just read any number of posts by Ampharos or Thinkaman.

Then you look at some of the custom moves that the top-tier characters have: Hammer Spin Dash, Penetrating Needles, Shooting Star Bit, Heavy Skull Bash, and others, which can make the already-great characters have very useful options. Also, even though some characters have some custom moves that may cover their weaknesses, that isn't necessarily a good thing nor does it indicate that they were designed with the balance of the game in mind as much.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Then you look at some of the custom moves that the top-tier characters have: Hammer Spin Dash,

Gives up a significant amount of damage and flexibility for safety. It's good, but it's not a game-changer.

Penetrating Needles,

Good in a handful of matchups; you're usually better off with the default.

Shooting Star Bit,

Oh look, a worse version of Falco's laser. This is an improvement, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't suddenly make the character top tier.

Heavy Skull Bash

I spent all of the last 3 days trying to set up for this move. If your opponent knows what they're dealing with, it's a huge pain in the ass to kill with it, because you really do need that charge. Solid tool, definite improvement over the default, not as big a deal as people think.

, and others, which can make the already-great characters have very useful options.

Yeah. Now what's the tradeoff? Pikachu can kill you at 40 off a hard read or a jab lock? Well, he also has to worry about dying at 60 to a grab by super-fast Palutena from anywhere. Sonic can jump around like a lunatic? Well, he also has to worry about Kong Cyclone's huge windbox nabbing him out of the air. Rosalina can force an approach? Numerous characters actually can approach, and deal with Luma. You see what I'm getting at here? Yeah, the high tiers get some extra toys to play with. Various low tiers, however, get the tools they need to function at all.

Also, even though some characters have some custom moves that may cover their weaknesses, that isn't necessarily a good thing nor does it indicate that they were designed with the balance of the game in mind as much.

What is this, amateur hour at the Southern Baptist Debate Club?

 

[Shadow_zero920]

i was thinking for a while, why not just ban the broken custom moves and keep the more balanced customs un-banned?

Villager is a good example of that. He has good customs, but he has some that are banworthy.

We will have to wait and see around EVO 2015

This needs to happen. Pre-determined sets hinder players who have a set from moves that are viable but are not for some reason combined together. I run 1332 mega man and its not legit even though all those moves are used in other set combos he has.

 

[Rikkhan]

Regarding pikachu skull bash, its stronger than it should be but its not game breaking, I run some test and fully charged its stronger than a warlock punch which is insane still landing one is hard, smash b version its similar to up smash so its not really a issue. The drawback I see is the ending lag which allows strong punish. Last thing we need to see how it goes in tourneys, people said little mac KO punch was game breaking but nope it was just a strong move.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

kinda offtopic but putting smogon as example is really a bad idea, yes some smogon rules are annoying but overall is way better, there is some really broken stuff in pokemon that comparatively makes look brawl MK as nothing. Also offtopic, ForGlory is similar to pokemon battlespot, they are semi-competitive, fun to play but not optimal (frankly pokemon 3v3 singles is terrible)

Smogon went off the rails in 4th gen and never recovered. I seriously question anyone who prefers their metagame over VGC at this point. It was clear that Game Freak had been balancing that game around doubles for a long time, but Smogon was so stuck in the past that they insisted on molding Pokemon into something entirely different and convoluted than to get on with the times.

/off-topic

 

[Mambo No.64]

As much as I don't want customs to become, " This, that, and that are banned indefinitely." I think it's gonna become that way sometime after Evo.

 

[Rynhardt]

A custom shouldn't even be considered for banning based on power alone. It has to be literally game-breaking. And honestly, Extreme Balloon Trip is the move that could fit that criteria. The only reason I say this is because the move completely ignores solid stage collision. This is probably the biggest problem with it, and could be seen as a glitch. The move could be banned under this circumstance, unless devs admit that it was an intended effect.

I'm not saying "KILL EXTREME BALLOON TRIP WITH FIRE" but if it does become problematic in the future which I doubt, at least we have reasonable ground to ban it on, as a glitch.

 

[Twin Rhapsody]

Smogon went off the rails in 4th gen and never recovered. I seriously question anyone who prefers their metagame over VGC at this point. It was clear that Game Freak had been balancing that game around doubles for a long time, but Smogon was so stuck in the past that they insisted on molding Pokemon into something entirely different and convoluted than to get on with the times.

/off-topic

I feel like they truly hit the bottom of their "ban-stuff" mentality in Gen 6. Personally I found a lot of merit to their Gen 4 lists for Singles, and even Gen 5 for the most part. Gen 6 they went wild with banning everything that was inconvenient. Sure you can make the argument that some of the Megas were too strong, but the final straw came when they banned Swagger. THAT was banned purely because people on Showdown WHINED enough about losing to a damn Key-chain.
/off-topic

A custom shouldn't even be considered for banning based on power alone. It has to be literally game-breaking. And honestly, Extreme Balloon Trip is the move that could fit that criteria. The only reason I say this is because the move completely ignores solid stage collision. This is probably the biggest problem with it, and could be seen as a glitch. The move could be banned under this circumstance, unless devs admit that it was an intended effect.

I'm not saying "KILL EXTREME BALLOON TRIP WITH FIRE" but if it does become problematic in the future which I doubt, at least we have reasonable ground to ban it on, as a glitch.

I've never actually thought about it like that, that it might not have been intentional for the balloons to go through solid platforms. Do the normal balloons do this though?

 

[Rynhardt]

I've never actually thought about it like that, that it might not have been intentional for the balloons to go through solid platforms. Do the normal balloons do this though?

The normal balloons do but they also aren't a threat while doing it. It could be an inherited property that was never properly adjusted.

 

[Rikkhan]

(last offtopic I swear)
@ Twin Rhapsody swagkey is similar to ADHD villager, they are not unbeatable but frustrating as hell to play against, I could assure you that if campy villager wins EVO at least timber would be banned and on the worst case all customs, also keep in mind that people whining in smogon are random persons so who cares, here we have pros that could drop smash 4 and go back to melee because campy villager meta could become a thing, and viewers matter a lot so if the meta become boring campy style that would be really bad.

Another thing, you said pokemon singles don't matter and you complain about things that are only a issue on singles, no one seems to check vgc rules, vgc changes rules every year and some rules directly or indirectly bans pokemons/moves/items, just a quick read vgc 2014 rules and found this:

Players may use Pokémon from the Central Kalos Pokédex from #001 to #150, Coastal Kalos Pokédex from #001 to #153, or Mountain Kalos Pokédex from #001 to #147.

Thats a massive ban of over 200 pokemons, so yeah...

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm really curious as to why Timber Counter is the one being looked at funny when it seems to me that Extreme Balloon Trip is the move that actually makes Villager's ledge camping dangerous.

(And I use the word "dangerous" generously since the exploding balloons do something like 5% damage.)

 

[Manta]

Unless there ends up being some truly bad issue with customs (like if there was a guaranteed x% -> x+100% combo that was easily pulled off just by getting hit by the move) then I really don't see a need to ban customs, it adds a whole new layer to a series whose meta is getting stale IMO (Melee is 50% Foxes, 48% Falco, Brawl is like 98% MK). Characters who weren't incredibly good before actually have a chance at becoming competitively viable.

 

[Twin Rhapsody]

-snip-
Another thing, you said pokemon singles don't matter and you complain about things that are only a issue on singles.

Ok, I did NOT say anything to that effect, I was just pointing out my distaste with Smogon's mentality these days.

 

[Rynhardt]

I'm really curious as to why Timber Counter is the one being looked at funny when it seems to me that Extreme Balloon Trip is the move that actually makes Villager's ledge camping dangerous.

(And I use the word "dangerous" generously since the exploding balloons do something like 5% damage.)

Exactly. Timber Counter enhances the kit but is hardly the problem. It is all in the balloons walling you off from Villager.

 

[RBreadsticks]

(last offtopic I swear)
@ Twin Rhapsody swagkey is similar to ADHD villager, they are not unbeatable but frustrating as hell to play against, I could assure you that if campy villager wins EVO at least timber would be banned and on the worst case all customs, also keep in mind that people whining in smogon are random persons so who cares, here we have pros that could drop smash 4 and go back to melee because campy villager meta could become a thing, and viewers matter a lot so if the meta become boring campy style that would be really bad.

Another thing, you said pokemon singles don't matter and you complain about things that are only a issue on singles, no one seems to check vgc rules, vgc changes rules every year and some rules directly or indirectly bans pokemons/moves/items, just a quick read vgc 2014 rules and found this:

Players may use Pokémon from the Central Kalos Pokédex from #001 to #150, Coastal Kalos Pokédex from #001 to #153, or Mountain Kalos Pokédex from #001 to #147.

Thats a massive ban of over 200 pokemons, so yeah...

Comparing swag key to custom villager is disgusting. Swag key is literally hammering a HAX button with hopes to win. Custom villager actually has to do things and do them well to win. A top singles player could easily be defeated by someone with no knowledge using swag key. The same is not true for custom villager whatsoever, the better player will come out on top regardless of if the strategy is boring or not. None of the customs create that straight random chance like swag key did.

The only good thing of drawing comparisons to smogons bans is it shows us we really have little to no actual reason to ban these customs. Nothing is inherently broken.

 

[stancosmos]

Yea you can DI out of hoo hahs at different percentages,you can also powershield bananas,and needles. You can also pivot grab sonics are punish them with out of shield options those are all pretty manageable. Imagine making a read that you could kill somebody at 40% but the worse could happen is that you might be put off stage thats ridiculous. I'm not saying all customs are broken but allowing only some is gonna make a slippery slope

Generally a DI out of a hoo-hah just leads to being creamed by the BAir instead of the UAir. but i agree, once players learn to adapt to it i don't think diddy will be seen as broken anymore.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Still just seeing "let's ban all customs because we speculate that a select few could be broken"

ergo, thinly veiled instinctual dislike of customs without basis

 

[Kofu]

I'm really curious as to why Timber Counter is the one being looked at funny when it seems to me that Extreme Balloon Trip is the move that actually makes Villager's ledge camping dangerous.

(And I use the word "dangerous" generously since the exploding balloons do something like 5% damage.)

They do 8/9% (don't remember offhand). But yeah, Timber Counter is just icing on the cake, EBT is much more potent.

 

[deepseadiva]

I'm really curious as to why Timber Counter is the one being looked at funny when it seems to me that Extreme Balloon Trip is the move that actually makes Villager's ledge camping dangerous.

The theory is that Timber Counter is the unique wall that blocks characters from using the in-game mechanics that are supposed to prevent planking (the lack of invincibility on a second ledge grab). To my knowledge no other character can spawn a "stage hazard" similar to trip sapling.

I doubt Balloon planking would have gotten any attention on it's own.

Which makes banning Timber Counter + Extreme Balloon Trip on the same set a seemingly effective and clean way of removing that kind of planking from the game. Not that I'm advocating for that, but it's something to think about going forward.

 

[S_B]

I want to say first and foremost that I am not completely anti-customs. I am more so in the favor of banning them, but mostly only 60-40.

What happened that day at KTAR when I decided to go custom villager was that I was destroying people in teams with the character and my diddy was rusty and I had poor results with him in friendlies. Villager was my best option despite faultering at the end.

Second, I want to clarify that the strategy was broken and I did not commit to it enough. I would get leads and then blow the kill. Something else.. What people fail to understand is that my villager is actually good onstage. If you watch the videos I did make proper reads sometimes and impressed myself. I have been playing the character silently without customs for months. My vilIager is pretty good without customs as well or planking. I played with customs for the first time this week!

You can say that you can beat it if your character has unique projectiles or a reflector and I would agree partially, but most matchups would be destroyed by the strat. Balloons are super safe if used intelligently, camping does take concentration and pressure however. I had to think way more than people gave me credit for.

Now, enough about that. I think that customs don't balance the game, they provide new options but as can be seen by villager, mii brawler, Rosalina, etc, they make for some abusive strategies. People did not note enough how powerful luma warp was for dabuz. But still! Diddy kong is the best. They do not affect diddy kong's performances at all. I think they should remain legal until after EVO and then a decision should be born. Let Evo be a learning part of the process.

I respect that you were trying to bring something you saw as potentially bad for the meta to a tournament. Someone needs to do exactly that, after all, and push forward the discussion of what should be allowed and whatnot.

But ultimately, I think you kind of wound up diffusing some of the concern over customs as the strategy was beaten in the same tournament it came around in.

Again, I respect that you had to "be the bad guy" in order to test the custom waters, but I don't think customs are going to menace the meta and in fact will benefit it in the long run instead.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Then you look at some of the custom moves that the top-tier characters have: Hammer Spin Dash, Penetrating Needles, Shooting Star Bit, Heavy Skull Bash, and others, which can make the already-great characters have very useful options. Also, even though some characters have some custom moves that may cover their weaknesses, that isn't necessarily a good thing nor does it indicate that they were designed with the balance of the game in mind as much.

Are you seriously trying to make a case saying top tiers will be even more OP compared to the rest of the cast with customs on? GTFO plz.

 

[Pugwest]

I don't agree with customs at all. Of course the people who enjoy / want them either don't care and are having actual fun but there will always be those who beg for them because they're characters "true potential" requires it.

Let's start

#1. The 10 custom sets we are allowed to use don't cover all options. For example, i'm a Marth main (I prefer no customs) and the only custom i use is Iai Counter. (Please don't comment about how much better his other Up-B is) So my set is 1-1-1-3, which isn't "legal" at Evo and would take time to enable only to probably have it removed after my match for another persons custom. Result - Time consumption.

#2. As ADHD stated, really "abusive" strats. We all know Villager and his ledge camp game (which personally isn't a problem for me. I find it actually easier to win matches when he camps the ledge) However there's potentially other characters that have crazy customs that are down right unbalanced. As an Example, Sonic's Fire Spindash... the dudes invincible through the dash until he jumps, turns around, or stops.... Like you basically have to shield or run away from him... (Sorry 2 my Sonic friends lol, thing is strong as hell)

Anyway, hopefully whatever happens is the best. Let us see what Evo brings.

Edit: Also don't approve of just banning customs. Just play with no customs and have it be entirely fair.

 

[Teshie U]

Villager's customs loadout is far from the strongest in the game. The smash community just hates zoning playstyles and moan any time something that isn't rushdown is remotely viable.

Smash 4 community is constantly trying to be like melee (trying to find wavedash replacements, combos etc.) and push aggression as the only thing that should ever be on a player's mind. There are viable and rewarding counter strategies to villager's ledge camping. Sapling lasts a good while, but every time he puts it up, he can easily be punished and pushed away from his safety. Even if you lose have the encounters you can still come out on top easily as Villager's ledge play simply pushes you away from him with minimal damage and the only thing that will kill is lucky Uair at 120+. Its low risk, low reward. Similar to a megaman player that might relentlessly pellet without ever taking a major risk.

@ Pugwest Sonic had a glitch in brawl that worked almost exactly like burning spindash. You could cancel the hop and extend the invincibility through the entire move. It still clashes with ground moves and most projectiles and many multihit specials straight up win because they clash and don't stop. It really just rolls through transcendent hitboxes like explosions, lasers and aerials that wont clash it it I suppose.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Burning Spindash significantly reduces Sonic's options in exchange for the damage and priority; it's a good move with match-up utility but worse overall than Hammer Spin Dash. Villager's ledge stalling is not an effective tactic let alone a broken tactic. There isn't a lot of good evidence that any custom move is particularly overpowered, let alone broken.

 

[S_B]

I think the time to start worrying about customs is AFTER we've seen custom characters win some tournaments instead of just vanilla Diddy as usual.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

We just had a little 24-man tournament out here in Munich with some real talent showing up. Twomix's custom Kirby was insanely hype. That character goes from "obnoxious" to "actually a real character" with customs, and it was awesome to watch... Until he got curbstomped by, you guessed it, default shiek in grand finals. Just sayin'.

 

[S_B]

We should take advantage of customs by forcing Shiek and Diddy players to use terrible ones...

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

#2. As ADHD stated, really "abusive" strats. We all know Villager and his ledge camp game (which personally isn't a problem for me. I find it actually easier to win matches when he camps the ledge) However there's potentially other characters that have crazy customs that are down right unbalanced. As an Example, Sonic's Fire Spindash... the dudes invincible through the dash until he jumps, turns around, or stops.... Like you basically have to shield or run away from him... (Sorry 2 my Sonic friends lol, thing is strong as hell)

Well, it's a good thing Burning Spin Dash loses to shield really hard! Seriously, dude has like 20+ frames of endlag when he touches your shield with that move. That's long enough for most characters to drop their shield and send Sonic flying into the horizon with a Smash Attack.

 

[Teshie U]

Well, it's a good thing Burning Spin Dash loses to shield really hard! Seriously, dude has like 20+ frames of endlag when he touches your shield with that move. That's long enough for most characters to drop their shield and send Sonic flying into the horizon with a Smash Attack.

Unless he jumps before he hits the shield. And here we return to pugwest's original statement "he is invincible until he jumps".

Simply shield and bair OoS. The burning spindash doesnt go high, so if you SH a nice quick bair/nair, he will likely get hit if he didn't buffer an airdodge. And if he did buffer an airdodge, he won't go high enough for it to autocancel.

Burning spindash buffs spindash as a punisher for raw damage, but it loses setups and safety.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I don't ever use Sonic if I can help it so I'll admit I have no idea how default Spin Dash works, never mind the custom variants. All I do know is that apparently Sonic can cancel the charge period with shield or jump, or at least that's what it looks like other Sonics are doing online. And then there's Spin Charge which I still can't tell how it's supposed to be different. Yay inexperience!

 

[Raijinken]

Burning Spindash significantly reduces Sonic's options in exchange for the damage and priority; it's a good move with match-up utility but worse overall than Hammer Spin Dash. Villager's ledge stalling is not an effective tactic let alone a broken tactic. There isn't a lot of good evidence that any custom move is particularly overpowered, let alone broken.

I tested this on a friend of mine, and aside from nearly getting kicked out of my own apartment for playing that way, it was sadly highly effective.

However, that effectiveness was a result of exactly one thing: He didn't know how to play against it. He was DK (admittedly not a ton of options there), and didn't really even try to spike me at the ledge when my invincibility was gone, didn't try to storm punch me back, or anything. Just kept running, jumping the sapling, and taking a slingshot to the face. Couldn't even get to a position to try to Cyclone me.

Curing ignorance really is the best way to fix people's perception of Villager camping.

 

[S_B]

I don't ever use Sonic if I can help it so I'll admit I have no idea how default Spin Dash works, never mind the custom variants. All I do know is that apparently Sonic can cancel the charge period with shield or jump, or at least that's what it looks like other Sonics are doing online. And then there's Spin Charge which I still can't tell how it's supposed to be different. Yay inexperience!

Hey, better to admit you don't know than attempt to bluff your way through it like so folks do.

I'm fairly ignorant when it comes to Sonic and especially his customs...

Curing ignorance really is the best way to fix people's perception of Villager camping.

Exactly.

Banning customs because some people have a hard time with them is like banning Falcon punch because some people can't figure out how to shield.

 

[Raijinken]

Hey, better to admit you don't know than attempt to bluff your way through it like so folks do.

I'm fairly ignorant when it comes to Sonic and especially his customs...



Exactly.

Banning customs because some people have a hard time with them is like banning Falcon punch because some people can't figure out how to shield.

Or do anything but stand there and run into it. Which is rather the same case with Kong Cyclone and Timber Counter.

 

[Pugwest]

Well, it's a good thing Burning Spin Dash loses to shield really hard! Seriously, dude has like 20+ frames of endlag when he touches your shield with that move. That's long enough for most characters to drop their shield and send Sonic flying into the horizon with a Smash Attack.

Good sonics spindash into up-b which makes him extremely difficult to punish unless your character is very fast in the air.