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Multihit Powershield behavior - why I think it's blech

RyokoYaksa

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First, I find it important to start you off with some music to listen to while reading this: http://www.listenonrepeat.com/watch/?v=MMqcgEjU4MY
With that out of the way...

Returning from a figurative grave, I have interest in posting some articles about my thoughts on the state of P:M and my understanding of Smash mechanics in general that people seem to miss. My first subject will be a new 2.6/2.6b change that has drawn my ire that people wanted me to post about.

As surely some of you have noticed, a new code in the 2.6 release brings about a change or two in powershield behavior. One of them is that powershields are now automatic throughout a blockstring after powershielding once. That is, if you powershield a multi hitting attack that shield locks you without letting you drop your shield between hits (think Peach's Dsmash), *all* hits after the first will be powershielded automatically in addition to the first. This means that shield damage *and* shield pushback are negated through the entirety of a shieldlock. While at first glance this seems like a good addition to the game for the sake of keeping things consistent, it's one of those things that I've immediately come to loathe, even during the testing phase, for a number of reasons. Let's think about it a bit harder:

1. It's an imbalanced change, really only affecting a select few moves on a few characters. Despite there being a decent number of multihit moves in the game, very few of these moves actually generate significant pushback to be negated by a powershield of all the hits. Remember now that for a move to push in shield, it has to contain hits that actually deal enough damage to cause pushback. The vast majority of multihits moves deal very low single digit damage with each hit, hardly pushing anywhere despite a stack of these blows on a shield (think of a rapid jab and the lack of push they do despite hitting your shield for several hits). Powershielding moves like those to negate pushback doesn't provide you with much benefit over blocking them normally. They were already bad on block before and you will be close enough regardless to punish. Another reason they are bad on block that is not actually related to actual frame disadvantage is because of the stacked hitlag they cause on shields as well as on hit, which gives a defender more time to react properly to the move when caught by them. Against Zelda's Usmash for example, there is pretty much no way you can fail to SDI the last hit on reaction or shieldgrab her on block since those windows of opportunity occur very late into the move after it starts hitting. You don't need powershield to counter that out of shield. By the same token, powershield went from only having a little benefit against these moves to being extremely good against them, moreso than single hitters that were already relatively good on block.

As for what moves this change does affect in a large way: that's namely Peach's Dsmash, Zelda's Fsmash, G&W's Fsmash (no comment), and once released, *everything* Ice Climbers do as a team. As said before most of those other multihits have very little shield pushback to begin with. None of the top tier character of Melee have an issue with this change as they have no moves like this. Yet, they can take advantage of it on characters that do. It makes no sense to me that Peach and Zelda would be indirectly nerfed the most by this (it would be disingenuous to omit the fact that they are among the characters I play), yet I can lame out people with Sheik or Falco, overall better characters, and be none the wiser about this change because they have no moves like this and have effective frame trap abilities on shield even their approaches are powershielded often.

One might be thinking, "Why aren't single hits hit hard by the Brawl-like powershield changes like multihits?" That is partly due to how a match plays out in general. Smash favors a heavily aerial based approach, and in the air you have a great deal of control over your spacing against an opponent in shield, unlike the ground moves mentioned previously. Good SHFFL approaches that are seen so often in high level play will frame trap people even in powershield, leaving not much benefit of a powershield to actually counter these approaches in a meaningful way that is not countered themselves by CC or running out of range.
As for single hit ground moves, there are too many factors to account for, but in practice there's a lot of single hit moves are not heavily countered in all given situations of powershielding even against a high frequency of it (in short, let's say "improved character design" seems to be at work here). Less can be said for the multihits hit hard by this change, because of the sheer amount of time you have in shield to react to them. One obvious point to make is that some moves which generate large amounts of shieldpush to be negated by powershield have other risks attached to attempting to powershield them and potentially failing (high shield damage, high shieldstun, high kill power/damage, etc.), where it smarter to avoid shielding entirely and counter with non shield options due to their effectiveness against shields. You can apply similar logic to multihit moves with shieldpush, except more often than not, blocking them normally or heaven forbid, getting hit by them, isn't the worst thing that can happen to you in that you won't die at 60% or suffer 1/2 shield damage.

2. It's an unnecessary wrench in the shield game.
The shielding game prior to this was honestly, fine without this effect. Those moves that do shield damage and significant pushback even past a powershield are very few, enough for players who do simple homework to be aware of when entering a match against a particular character. In addition, those moves from Melee have genuine ways of getting around them, either by some flaw in the move itself or a limitation of the character possessing it. The moves mentioned are ground moves on slow moving characters which very much limits how well you can abuse them on shield in comparison to say, Fox SHFFL'ing aerials on you that frame trap into Shine. Thus, they were never a balance concern despite being having reliable pushback on shield. If you don't believe that at face value, remember that 11+ years of Melee metagame is behind those moves. People have been getting around them just fine with Melee like shielding.

It is fine that some moves are not ideally counterable by some options. That is simply something that deepends a fighting game's complicated R/P/S strategy. Some moves counter dodges and rolls (GW ftilt), some moves are effective against CC (shines), some moves are more easily punished out of shield than on whiff (character dependent), and other moves are dangerous to even try to shield let alone powershield (Bowser). Catch-all defensive options make for a dull game. The multihit moves in question from Melee have significant flaws that prevent them from being on the level of a top tier's safe bread and butters. I would be accepting of this change if such moves that were effective against the pushback negation of powershielding actually ran rampant in many character movesets, had next to no weaknesses otherwise, or were on ridiculously good characters that were more deserving of an overall balance check. None of this applies in this case, which makes its very presence give off a forced aura of "because we can" leaving players thinking "why?"
Powershielding as it works in general is rather unclean, due to how it works favoring those who can displace their hurtboxes with a low crouch to "force" more powershields to happen. As much as I like to abuse that myself with a character like Sheik and advise others to do the same I can admit it's an imbalanced effect and would say that the powershield game doesn't need to become any more imbalanced by circumstances a character was born with. If one changes that because they feel like it then those moves can also be changed to not shield lock and be a total pain to manually powershield in a manner like DK's Down B is to retain their reliable shield push in critical moments. Such moves are few to the point where it could actually be warranted, but that would be a stupid thing to do to counteract a change that affects such a small portion of moves on a small portion of the roster.

4. It looks and feels aesthetically off. This is rather subjective, but it is quite jarring to have a moves of those degrees have a large amount of pushback nullified to that degree. In Melee, shield pushback was not nullified by powershields at all. In Brawl, powershielding negated pushback (and shieldstun) for single hits but was still ineffective for negating multihit shield pushback. For a Melee or Brawl player to expect reliable pushback of moves that are more or less specifically designed to work that way, not having it function like that in P:M for any reason is a pretty big shock as it's not Melee-like nor Brawl-like. Peach's Dsmash, on the extreme end, generates enough hitlag to make lunch on powershielding all 5 hits and punish it with a Smash, which is unprecedented in any Smash game.

5. As far as I can tell, no one really wanted it in the first place.
I value having contact with the player community in many guises. With my time spent reading the forums, in stream chat channels, chatrooms, etc. having general chat about Smash concerning what players like and don't like in regards to Project:M, many subjects have been brought to the table. Usually, these subjects are related to specific characters and moves, but there is a fair share of discussion concerning general mechanics and flow of the game, both on its own and in comparison to other Smash iterations. Shield interactions concerning the reward of a powershield has never been one of those subjects brought up. I'm a firm believer of of happy players being quiet players, and there not being any kind of negative voice about this previously, to me means that it was fine. After the change though, people not limited to myself have been reacting to it negatively. However, because less popularly used characters are adversely affected by it as such, there hasn't been as much discussion about it brought to light like, say... the space animal nerfs. If changes are controversial and not critical then one needs to be careful. When said change is in the guise of a "global" mechanical change that honestly only affects a few of many characters, it is controversial.

I WELCOME YOUR FLAMES AND REGRET NOTHING
 

Juushichi

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with your signature ryoko, i am not sure if i want to trust you on this especially with "happy players being quiet players". there are a lot of things that people still don't know about the game and are learning, so i don't quite buy that.

on the real though, i guess i can't really argue that this is maybe... inelegant? but i am a bit more in favor of having powershields actually meaning something definitively in the phase of the game. Especially since we have two versions of it (powershield reflect and ??? PS). In general, I guess I am wanting sheild and OOS games to be a bit more important than it already is.

more than anything, I think if something significant to the system is going to be added... then maybe there should be some sort of dialogue or description posted for "why" it was done.
 

RyokoYaksa

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I used to have a Dogbert avatar which makes the signature a direct quote of this.


Anyway, remember that powershielding direct attacks yields a few effects that isn't just related to pushback. Negation of shield pushback, shield damage, and also that you can cancel the shield drop animation into any ground attack possible when standing, instead of just grab and jump-based maneuvers. Multihits prior to this change bypassed pushback and shield on powershield on hits after the first hit that was powershieded, but keep the shielddrop IASA after shield stun ends as it carries over through multiple hits if shieldlocked. How useful this is is situationally dependent like any other punish, but it still retains a benefit.
 

Comeback Kid

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If you think the current powershield behavior only affects very few moves on very few characters, it can't be as imbalanced as you make it out to be.

Especially when the characters you cite are effing amazing in Project M.
 

9Kplus1

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Thank you for accepting my flames :V​

If you think the current powershield behavior only affects very few moves on very few characters, it can't be as imbalanced as you make it out to be.

Especially when the characters you cite are effing amazing in Project M.
It was mentioned that the change in powershielding mechanics affects those characters and moves especially; it certainly has universal effects which unnecessarily buff an already powerful mechanic.
 

Zerudahime

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The real issue is the fact that this type of a mechanics change was put in when there was no problem with the way powershields worked to begin with. The moves that have 11+ years in meta are being altered for absolutely no reason. Again, this goes back to a development standpoint that could it be possible that we are taking too many liberties with the game and changing core interaction for no reason just because a faction of the people think that its better? Or is this something that people were discussing and thought it was a good idea?......I didnt see any discussion on this topic at all until this code was put into the game. Now that it has become a topic, it shows that there are some people that are concerned. The public should be made more aware of its consequences and principle other than simply saying, ''powershielding should have more of a reward.''



The powershield window isnt even that small keep in mind.

also, salt helps....it can even be done on wifi........http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HTuuXNNat8
 

Kink-Link5

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It isn't "too much of a reward." It normalises the reward granted against all types of hit. Poor Zelda and Ice Climbers will have to have their F-smash affected the same way as everyone else.
 

ds22

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It's not pointless, as it does serve the purpose of allowing powershields to work across multiple hits on multihit attacks if it locks you in shieldstun, while slower multihits that allow dropping the shield will decrement the powershield window while not in stun and can hit the shield normally on later hits.
Also, the notion that no one wanted this is simply not true, as I've seen people argue both in support and opposition of this particular change.
And it seemingly looking stupid is just a matter of personal opinion.

I dare to say that Ryoko only brought this up is because it affects Zelda, and seeing as he's responsible for everything Zelda stands for, he wants only what's in his best interest, going as far as steering public opinion in his favour just to prevent any kind of outer influence on Zelda's development (if it didn't affect her, this thread and discussion wouldn't even exist).
I've seen enough to know for a fact that what I'm saying isn't just a baseless accusation, and I know a lot people share my opinion.
 

Red(SP)

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Actually, power shielding is piss easy in P:M and adding this only benefits the people who already know how to power shield consistently. It's not like in Melee where I have to bust balls power shielding something from time to time and have my shield constantly getting pushed, etc.

I would honestly rather have this buff only if I saw power shielding in P:M as labeled "actually difficult".
It's actually pretty damn stupid too.
 

RyokoYaksa

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It isn't "too much of a reward" it normalises the reward granted against all types of hit. Poor Zelda and Ice Climbers will have to have their F-smash effected the same way as everyone else.
It becomes "excessive" in these situations because they cause an absurd amount of hitlag that doesn't even occur on normal hit in at least some cases. A normalization of reward would be something like powershielding causing equally exaggerated hitlag on any attack, even weak ones, allowing an easy reaction window for the defender to pick the best choice to punish with. In the strictest sense, normalization of reward would be a true reversal that puts the then attacker and defender in the same state of disadvantage and advantage each time it is performed. Back to Smash, the reward for dodging or CCing, or even powershielding any attack with "perfect execution," is far from normalized depending on what move you're dealing with, and this extends to reward from powershielding. Powershielding attacks directly being some "epitome of defensive maneuvers" that should reward everything equally is something romanticized by people who seem to miss the fact that there is no catch-all counter option when it comes to it in real gameplay. Even powershielding itself is not the default goto option to counter every move that can be powershielded.

It's not pointless, as it does serve the purpose
of allowing powershields to work across multiple hits on multihit attacks if it locks you in shieldstun, while slower multihits that allow dropping the shield will decrement the powershield window while not in stun and can hit the shield normally on later hits.
Also, the notion that no one wanted this is simply not true, as I've seen people argue both in support and opposition of this particular change.
And it seemingly looking stupid is just a matter of personal opinion.

I dare to say that Ryoko only brought this up is because it affects Zelda, and seeing as he's responsible for everything Zelda stands for, he wants only what's in his best interest, going as far as steering public opinion in his favour just to prevent any kind of outer influence on Zelda's development (if it didn't affect her, this thread and discussion wouldn't even exist).
I've seen enough to know for a fact that what I'm saying isn't just a baseless accusation, and I know a lot people share my opinion.
Powershield has always "worked" through hits that locked you in shieldstun prior to this. It limited pushback and shield damage negation only to the hit you actually jammed powershield on, but retains the most important effect from Melee's perspective through shieldlock, being able to IASA shield drop into any stationary attack.

Nobody wanted this change... until after it was brought to the table, of whom which are the usual suspects. There was no open controversy about the subject before its very conception (that is, no people saying PUT THIS IN PLEASE it makes me want to play P:M), but there is controversy now that it's out. You can look down on me if you want for having guts to say something about it, but the truth is I'm pretty far from the only one to dislike it.

For that last amazing foregone conclusion... I'm a Sheik main first and a Peach/Zelda main second when it comes to serious play. The change also honestly affects one move of Peach's (and GnW's because stacked moves) in a far more show stopping way than any move Zelda, or anyone, has. As much as I like the princesses in Melee and would like to see them carry over and do well in P:M, I'm not stupid and can admit that a more accessible (read: abusable) character like Sheik is overall better for competing with the meanest characters P:M has to offer. Sheik and other top tier competitors just have the tools that lots of other character do not have without forcing a radical break of their design molds. That's a simple reality of Smash. I don't have any delusions about my skill level or a blind character faith that prevents me from making a sensible plan to try to get through a tournament bracket to the best of my ability. That an honestly imbalanced global mechanical change is at all a factor that would further force me to do this (Sheik doesn't care at all about this change) is the core of what I find irritating, and that's something I can say just from a consumer's standpoint.
 

ds22

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I don't look down on you because of your supposed bravery, I look down on you for not letting this so called controversy develop on it's own.
Instead, you, a PMBR developer, purposely created this thread to stir up controversy, seeing as almost no one in the backroom shared your opinion.
And the whole 'don't change what's broken' arguments works for a lot of things, but shouldn't be used as a general guideline for every change that hasn't been specifically requested.

Also, I'm just saying that, if this change hadn't affected Zelda and/or Peach, you wouldn't have made a big deal out of it (because I don't believe for one moment you would've done this if it only affected G&W and IC's).
It affects her, and now suddenly you have made it your lives mission to convince people that this addition is as horrible as you make it seem, while in reality it's not even half as bad.
 

RingWormTheDestroyer

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It's not pointless, as it does serve the purpose of allowing powershields to work across multiple hits on multihit attacks if it locks you in shieldstun, while slower multihits that allow dropping the shield will decrement the powershield window while not in stun and can hit the shield normally on later hits.
Also, the notion that no one wanted this is simply not true, as I've seen people argue both in support and opposition of this particular change.
And it seemingly looking stupid is just a matter of personal opinion.

I dare to say that Ryoko only brought this up is because it affects Zelda, and seeing as he's responsible for everything Zelda stands for, he wants only what's in his best interest, going as far as steering public opinion in his favour just to prevent any kind of outer influence on Zelda's development (if it didn't affect her, this thread and discussion wouldn't even exist).
I've seen enough to know for a fact that what I'm saying isn't just a baseless accusation, and I know a lot people share my opinion.
It isn't "too much of a reward." It normalises the reward granted against all types of hit. Poor Zelda and Ice Climbers will have to have their F-smash effected the same way as everyone else.
I don't look down on you because of your supposed bravery, I look down on you for not letting this so called controversy develop on it's own.
Instead, you, a PMBR developer, purposely created this thread to stir up controversy, seeing as almost no one in the backroom shared your opinion.
And the whole 'don't change what's broken' arguments works for a lot of things, but shouldn't be used as a general guideline for every change that hasn't been specifically requested.

Also, I'm just saying that, if this change hadn't affected Zelda and/or Peach, you wouldn't have made a big deal out of it (because I don't believe for one moment you would've done this if it only affected G&W and IC's).
It affects her, and now suddenly you have made it your lives mission to convince people that this addition is as horrible as you make it seem, while in reality it's not even half as bad.

PMBR **** riding at it's finest. You guys didn't want these changes before it was made but now that they made it you praise them like it's what you wanted all along. Sometimes it's like watching sheep. It's a change to a core mechanic. I understand not needing a request to make every little change but this isn't really a small change.
 

The_NZA

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First they came for Ness's magnet,
but Ryoko didn't speak out because he wasn't a Ness main

Then they came for Zelda/Peach's multihits,
And there was no one left to speak for Ryoko
 

TheReflexWonder

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In the grand scheme of things, it's a pretty insignificant change. Even barring the fact that most characters don't have significant usage of a multihit as a spacing option, do you really expect G&W to use B-Air fewer times as a result of this? Zelda and F-Smash? Peach and D-Smash? In the latter two cases, you can even hold the charge, making a powershield timing nothing more than luck in the end. There are two frames between releasing the charge and the first hitbox for Peach's D-Smash.
 

ELI-mination

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I've always not really understood the need to make changes unnecessarily. Talking with a lot of people that criticize P:M, I notice that "constant change" is one of the things that turn them off about the game.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Well, it's worth noting that this change increased consistency with the powershielding mechanic. I think everyone would agree that powershielding an attack takes much greater precision than attempting to space with the multihit moves in question (most of which are reasonably fast to begin with). As a result, I am personally glad that powershielding now gives a significant advantage against all moves, instead of only working against some (all the non-multihit) moves and undermining a very difficult and skillful mechanic in otherwise-identical situations.
 

ELI-mination

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While I agree with consistency for general game mechanics, I think the fact that powershielding is itself extremely easy to pull off in Project M doesn't contribute anything supportive to this change. I think it would be in the PMBR's best interest to find a middle ground, but if the community doesn't have an issue with this change, then neither do I. Basically, I think its a lot more important to make changes based on actual data received from the community's feedback rather than "what us developers believe is good game theory behind closed doors". And this is given regardless of what every "random" thinks about game design, because I've been in the PMBR and I can tell you that its not like we're looking at game design geniuses ourselves back there either, at least some percentage of them anyway.
 

TheReflexWonder

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While I agree with consistency for general game mechanics, I think the fact that powershielding is itself extremely easy to pull off in Project M doesn't contribute anything supportive to this change.

As far as I'm aware, powershielding isn't any easier in Project M than in Melee (except for WiFi because of buffer, which makes it way easier). Are you implying that powershielding attacks is extremely easy in Melee? If not, I suppose it would be the differences in moves. If that's the case, what moves do you feel make it way easier?
 

Spiffykins

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I can't help but think that one of the main purposes for multi hit moves was for them to do more shield damage and be powershield-proof.

But it's cool, it's not like it makes their existence practically pointless or like SDI already balanced them or anything logical like that.
 

SpiderMad

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You guys are all blind to how awesome light press air dodge (and 1 frame buffer) are.

But lets get back to the topic at hand:
yet I can lame out people with Sheik or Falco, overall better characters, and be none the wiser about this change because they have no moves like this and have effective frame trap abilities on shield even their approaches are powershielded often.
Your Falco? I haven't seen video of this
 

Kink-Link5

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PMBR **** riding at it's finest. You guys didn't want these changes before it was made but now that they made it you praise them like it's what you wanted all along. Sometimes it's like watching sheep. It's a change to a core mechanic. I understand not needing a request to make every little change but this isn't really a small change.
Ryoko is pmbr. Stop **** riding pmbr members, guy.

While I agree with consistency for general game mechanics, I think the fact that powershielding is itself extremely easy to pull off in Project M doesn't contribute anything supportive to this change. I think it would be in the PMBR's best interest to find a middle ground, but if the community doesn't have an issue with this change, then neither do I. Basically, I think its a lot more important to make changes based on actual data received from the community's feedback rather than "what us developers believe is good game theory behind closed doors". And this is given regardless of what every "random" thinks about game design, because I've been in the PMBR and I can tell you that its not like we're looking at game design geniuses ourselves back there either, at least some percentage of them anyway.
This is no way to go about things, Eli. If your thoughts on a change go against the general public, you shouldn't just agree with the community's decisions. Hell, plenty of people on the fence would likely agree with you because you are angry all the time.
 

ItalianStallion

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I just wish we could all get along like we used to in middle school. I wish that I could bake a cake made out of rainbows and smiles and we'd all eat and be happy.
 

foxygrandpa

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If anything was to be done to the shields, I would have liked to have seen light shielding in the game. I guess the new shield thing is an interesting concept, but lightshielding would have added more of a melee aspect and made more of a difference in gameplay.
 

Comeback Kid

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Salty thread overall.

Personally I don't care either way, because everything in this game leads to a controversy so it's kind of a running joke now, but I haven't seen a good argument based on evidence for why this is bad.

It's mostly "no one asked for this whhhhhyyyyyyyyyyy" or "I think it's stupid" or "it will lead to very bad things down the road."

But no one has actually shown that to be the case yet. So yes, like most people I withhold judgement of changes until their proven guilty of real wrongdoing.
 
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