Multihit Powershield behavior - why I think it's blech

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

Salty thread overall.

Personally I don't care either way, because everything in this game leads to a controversy so it's kind of a running joke now, but I haven't seen a good argument based on evidence for why this is bad.

It's mostly "no one asked for this whhhhhyyyyyyyyyyy" or "I think it's stupid" or "it will lead to very bad things down the road."

But no one has actually shown that to be the case. So yes, like most people I withhold judgement of changes until their proven guilty of real wrongdoing.

Well one of my major gripes with it is how bad it looks aesthetically. It just looks like it doesn't belong.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

^ Not an argument.

I think the selling point of the argument was the fact that a large amount of characters really weren't affected by the new mechanic, including almost every melee top tier and a lot of new characters in the cast. The change, although technically universal across the entire cast, did only target a few specific characters who had multihits that even caused that much shield-stun/pushback to begin with.

I don't think the mechanic is bad, and IMO it should stay. But it does affect characters with moves that are meant to inflict such pushback precisely because of their multihit nature, while keeping way more characters unharmed.

 

[Spiffykins]

Salty thread overall.

Personally I don't care either way, because everything in this game leads to a controversy so it's kind of a running joke now, but I haven't seen a good argument based on evidence for why this is bad.

It's mostly "no one asked for this whhhhhyyyyyyyyyyy" or "I think it's stupid" or "it will lead to very bad things down the road."

But no one has actually shown that to be the case yet. So yes, like most people I withhold judgement of changes until their proven guilty of real wrongdoing.

Light shielding, SDI, and CC already do enough to balance multi hit moves. It hurts characters without a shine more than characters with. If it is intended to compensate for light shielding it does so poorly, and if it's still in place if/when light shielding is added it will hurt even more. Power shielding is already easier than in Melee, now it is even stronger. It partially invalidates the existence of multi hit attacks in the first place.

If none of this strikes you as 'good arguments' or 'evidence based' then odds nobody will convince you it's bad. Nobody is going to come out with spreadsheets and statistical analysis of drastic changes in character viability. This isn't particle physics, it's Smash.

 

[Vashimus]

PMBR **** riding at it's finest. You guys didn't want these changes before it was made but now that they made it you praise them like it's what you wanted all along. Sometimes it's like watching sheep. It's a change to a core mechanic. I understand not needing a request to make every little change but this isn't really a small change.

Well either you have terrible idea's or you just like to bandwagon with terrible ideas. haha.

My thoughts about this have been the same even before this thread existed. You on the other hand are the **** ridding king. you've proven that over and over again haha.

Heeeeey, wanna tone it down a bit, pal? Just relax, man. Relaaaaax.......

 

[Kink-Link5]

My thoughts about this have been the same even before this thread existed. You on the other hand are the **** ridding king. you've proven that over and over again haha.

I've brought up several of my concerns with game and character design repeatedly. The difference is that not liking how Charizard's new nair hits or not liking Zelda's entire character design and voicing those complaints is a something that is legitimately arguable, where as this is complaining about something that makes almost no difference in the game and only serves to make a particular technique consistant so every move gets affected by it in the same way.

If you really think I'm riding on the pmbr's every decision, you're way off base. I've been more often accused of "complaining about every little thing" than most board members.

Light shielding, SDI, and CC already do enough to balance multi hit moves. It hurts characters without a shine more than characters with. If it is intended to compensate for light shielding it does so poorly, and if it's still in place if/when light shielding is added it will hurt even more. Power shielding is already easier than in Melee, now it is even stronger. It partially invalidates the existence of multi hit attacks in the first place.

If none of this strikes you as 'good arguments' or 'evidence based' then odds nobody will convince you it's bad. Nobody is going to come out with spreadsheets and statistical analysis of drastic changes in character viability. This isn't particle physics, it's Smash.

Multihit moves are pretty famous for wrecking Crouch Canceling. Which makes sense, since Crouch Canceling requires no amount of timing and limited prediction, and "auto CC'ing" is common place after whiffing a ground attack.

 

[Spiffykins]

Multihit moves are pretty famous for wrecking Crouch Canceling. Which makes sense, since Crouch Canceling requires no amount of timing and limited prediction, and "auto CC'ing" is common place after whiffing a ground attack.

I know that's usually the case, but there are certain scenarios where it's beneficial. Mostly in combination with SDI, although CC shine can clank. Minor things like that.

 

[Wrestlemania]

I just wish we could all get along like we used to in middle school. I wish that I could bake a cake made out of rainbows and smiles and we'd all eat and be happy.

You don't even go to this school...

 

[Vashimus]

It's okay Kinky. You're still sexy in my book.

 

[SpiderMad]

My thoughts about this have been the same even before this thread existed. You on the other hand are the **** ridding king. you've proven that over and over again haha.

You should have been around a year ago lol, you don't know what you're saying

 

[ItalianStallion]

You don't even go to this school...

I just have a lot of feelings.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

My thoughts about this have been the same even before this thread existed. You on the other hand are the **** ridding king. you've proven that over and over again haha.

Where are all these ***** that we're apparently getting rid of? Why all the **** hate?

 

[Wrestlemania]

That is what kink does, take out the trash.
(Rid us of of the $hit)

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

You should have been around a year ago lol, you don't know what you're saying

How do you figure?

 

[ELI-mination]

This is no way to go about things, Eli. If your thoughts on a change go against the general public, you shouldn't just agree with the community's decisions. Hell, plenty of people on the fence would likely agree with you because you are angry all the time.

#1 I'm not angry all the time, this confuses me
#2 The only reason I bring up the fact that the community matters is because I know for a FACT, having been in the PMBR, that there are a good amount of devs that are out of touch with what the public actually wants... I'm only interested in bridging that gap, not making this some kind of "everyone has equal say on game design" thing.

 

[SpiderMad]

How do you figure?

Hmmm long story short and garbled: Internet Opinions, Anger, Thousand Dollars.
Thousand Dollars > Internet Opinions. Kink > PMBR.
Love > Anger

..Light press air dodge > Hard press air dodge

 

[ELI-mination]

I think..... I think I hate you

/wrists

 

[SpiderMad]

I think..... I think I hate you

/wrists

?
As much as both sides acted immature, when push comes to shove I'd much rather have a thousand dollars. Which provides essentially weeks of being paid to develop the game, and if you know Kink he gave that with a pretty pure heart and of course didn't get much thanks for it as far as I know.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Nah I said that in like 2010 or something with teenage ****** mode active.

 

[SpiderMad]

2010? Uh, 2012 right? Maybe those were the good years when I only lurked the forums without an account and stayed in the IRC, wait no it was after that. You're saying you were pumped up on emotions and were too mean to the PMBR or what? Is that also to blame on that weird rep you left me? http://www.smashmods.com/forum/reputation.php?uid=6768

But yeah someone send me money, I appreciate it more than other people seem too

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

..Light press air dodge > Hard press air dodge

springs removed > jank light presses

 

[SpiderMad]

springs removed > jank light presses

I'm glad you and others realize some of the benefits of springs removed that's shared with light press air dodge, but how's that not the jankier way when it's involving removing a part of your controller, getting possible issues with it (it getting stuck/jammed once a in while), and L-canceling now being somewhat affected? Given P:M has no light shielding, there's currently little to no complications going against light press. I'da thought it'd be what the people who removed their springs in Melee had always wanted.

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

I'm glad you and others realize some of the benefits of springs removed that's shared with light press air dodge, but how's that not the jankier way when it's involving removing a part of your controller, getting possible issues with it (it getting stuck/jammed once a in while), and L-canceling now being somewhat affected? Given P:M has no light shielding, there's currently little to no complications going against light press. I'da thought it'd be what the people who removed their springs in Melee had always wanted.

yeah removing parts is janky haha. I just find it easier to wavedash and such but i do keep the spring in my L trigger so i can still light press if needed.

 

[Deleted member]

pretty much agree with dave. ps on peach dsmash is brawl+ status.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I don't look down on you because of your supposed bravery, I look down on you for not letting this so called controversy develop on it's own.
Instead, you, a PMBR developer, purposely created this thread to stir up controversy, seeing as almost no one in the backroom shared your opinion.
And the whole 'don't change what's broken' arguments works for a lot of things, but shouldn't be used as a general guideline for every change that hasn't been specifically requested.

Also, I'm just saying that, if this change hadn't affected Zelda and/or Peach, you wouldn't have made a big deal out of it (because I don't believe for one moment you would've done this if it only affected G&W and IC's).
It affects her, and now suddenly you have made it your lives mission to convince people that this addition is as horrible as you make it seem, while in reality it's not even half as bad.

What would it matter if I did not play those characters, none of those characters, or played every single character? Picking apart my character choices does not invalidate anything I'm saying in the slightest. At the end of the day, the change still creates an imbalance in actual gameplay, and your very statement perpetuates the big problem that gives PMBR a bad rap to the public, and even to its own members. That is, when it comes to honest concerns and criticism that it doesn't matter what is being said, but who is saying it. Even now my individual points are not being addressed meaningfully by the supporters of this change, but responded to with statements that I've either already discussed in my longer posts or with indirect statements. You may be surprised about the reality of how divided the opinion of this change was, but the treatment of the subject there was certainly not any more professional.

That and I personally will not entertain subjects regarding characters that I don't have a good grasp of without understanding them by both playing/fighting them myself a good deal and by receiving views of others who play them. I don't like putting forth opinions on changing stuff without having a good understanding of how it will play out in practice, unlike people who try to dabble their way in characters or general gameplay decisions despite having no actual passion towards playing those characters or even P:M itself, which leads to negatively received elephants being released because it seemed like a cool idea at the time.

Well, it's worth noting that this change increased consistency with the powershielding mechanic. I think everyone would agree that powershielding an attack takes much greater precision than attempting to space with the multihit moves in question (most of which are reasonably fast to begin with). As a result, I am personally glad that powershielding now gives a significant advantage against all moves, instead of only working against some (all the non-multihit) moves and undermining a very difficult and skillful mechanic in otherwise-identical situations.

In the grand scheme of things, it's a pretty insignificant change. Even barring the fact that most characters don't have significant usage of a multihit as a spacing option, do you really expect G&W to use B-Air fewer times as a result of this? Zelda and F-Smash? Peach and D-Smash? In the latter two cases, you can even hold the charge, making a powershield timing nothing more than luck in the end. There are two frames between releasing the charge and the first hitbox for Peach's D-Smash.

Adding consistency begets more inconsistencies, which was a point of my original post. Most multihits were already awful on block, powershield or otherwise, including GW's Bair. At the sake of making it more "consistent" on the stronger pushing ones you then create a situation where on success you create a suddenly enormous amount of reward as opposed to a relatively small one (in this case, no push in addition to highly reactable hitlag) not seen when powershielding your run of the mill single hit attacks. "A significant advantage against -all- moves" is a faulty misconclusion when powershielding only negates a few aspects of the move that would makes it good on block, when there are other such aspects that heavily contribute which powershield does not cover. Powershielding does not act as a reversal. You will not be able to punish everything you powershield with an ideal or even good option, with reactionary limits and actual shield advantage being among those things, and this is without even factoring in multihits at all. Being forced to charge delay a multihit just to get the pushback you desire from the move designed for that purpose is not risk free due to the existence of counterhits on Smash charge, especially considering before where was no need to do this for that reason alone. As said before, powershielding is also much easier than people give it credit for and has means to exploit its occurrence.

 

[Ace55]

I don't really have an opinion on this subject.

But I'm loving the drama.

And how come there is apparently a PMBR member living in Rotterdam yet I've never heard of him?

 

[ds22]

What would it matter if I did not play those characters, none of those characters, or played every single character? Picking apart my character choices does not invalidate anything I'm saying in the slightest. At the end of the day, the change still creates an imbalance in actual gameplay, and your very statement perpetuates the big problem that gives PMBR a bad rap to the public, and even to its own members. That is, when it comes to honest concerns and criticism that it doesn't matter what is being said, but who is saying it. Even now my individual points are not being addressed meaningfully by the supporters of this change, but responded to with statements that I've either already discussed in my longer posts or with indirect statements. You may be surprised about the reality of how divided the opinion of this change was, but the treatment of the subject there was certainly not any more professional.

That and I personally will not entertain subjects regarding characters that I don't have a good grasp of without understanding them by both playing/fighting them myself a good deal and by receiving views of others who play them. I don't like putting forth opinions on changing stuff without having a good understanding of how it will play out in practice, unlike people who try to dabble their way in characters or general gameplay decisions despite having no actual passion towards playing those characters or even P:M itself, which leads to negatively received elephants being released because it seemed like a cool idea at the time.

Yeah, because going public with this without giving people even the change to discover this on their own is the professional thing to do. ¬.¬
And your character choices do indeed matter in this case, seeing as you have done a lot of things, both publicly as well as in the backroom, that gives me the impression that you want Zelda the way you want, and everything that has even the slightest external influence on that has to be dealt with, be it by trying to influence the general public, or doing something is such a direction.

I'm not here saying that this shouldn't be discussed, I'm here saying you shouldn't have gone public with this as soon as 2.6b was released, and instead should have left it to the public to decide if this was indeed a problem that needed to be discussed or not.
Project M is still in it's development phases, and while we're trying to gather information from non backroom members without adding bias, you are effectively frustrating that process by having created this thread under a cover that your concerns are valid (which they are BTW).

And how come there is apparently a PMBR member living in Rotterdam yet I've never heard of him?

I'm more of a coder than a player, and tend to keep to myself.
It's just that this particular action made by Ryoko/Wavebuster was something I just had to say something about.

 

[The_NZA]

Does PMBR's responsibility to the game outweigh the ability for the smash community to organically and naturally self determine?

Stay tuned in the next episode of "minor buffs to rare game mechanics that may have an effect on some match in the future"

Special guest: Fox's shine invincibility.

 

[GP&B]

You know what? **** changelogs. It's more fun when people actually attempt to take notice of things in-game and not hugely exaggerate the impact it has on their character/the game.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Does PMBR's responsibility to the game outweigh the ability for the smash community to organically and naturally self determine?

Stay tuned in the next episode of "minor buffs to rare game mechanics that may have an effect on some match in the future"

Special guest: Fox's shine invincibility.

Pretty much NZA, pretty much.

I'm not sure about anyone else, but on the subject of Peach's multi-hit down smash, it tends to be a guaranteed shield poke against me, even if done against a fresh shield. I don't understand why it's not fair to be rewarded for perfectly timing a defense against such a move that otherwise hits through shield.

 

[Wavebuster]

Pretty much NZA, pretty much.

I'm not sure about anyone else, but on the subject of Peach's multi-hit down smash, it tends to be a guaranteed shield poke against me, even if done against a fresh shield. I don't understand why it's not fair to be rewarded for perfectly timing a defense against such a move that otherwise hits through shield.

It's a simple matter of different move strengths that make them more powerful against some counteroptions than others. Powershielding has been said to not be the end all default option to deal with attacks, and it never has been, given the limitations of what it does.

If you powershield against attacks that actually give the attacker frame advantage (such moves exist), you would actually be better off with the shield push of a normal shield to create distance between you and the attacker because you're actually still at a disadvantage. GW's landing Pan hitbox is the extreme example, since it gives enough advantage to guarantee a grab and powershielding it actually makes it easier for him to do so because it doesn't reduce shield stun despite negating pushback. Blocking that move at all is the wrong option. That's part of the move's nature that players need to learn when going into a matchup. Apply this thought process to other moves that are not as effectively defended by shielding for one reason or another, warranting the need to employ alternate counteroptions against those moves which has been a natural part of the game since ever.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

It's a simple matter of different move strengths that make them more powerful against some counteroptions than others. Powershielding has been said to not be the end all default option to deal with attacks, and it never has been, given the limitations of what it does.

If you powershield against attacks that actually give the attacker frame advantage (such moves exist), you would actually be better off with the shield push of a normal shield to create distance between you and the attacker because you're actually still at a disadvantage. GW's landing Pan hitbox is the extreme example, since it gives enough advantage to guarantee a grab and powershielding it actually makes it easier for him to do so because it doesn't reduce shield stun despite negating pushback. Blocking that move at all is the wrong option. That's part of the move's nature that players need to learn when going into a matchup. Apply this thought process to other moves that are not as effectively defended by shielding for one reason or another, warranting the need to employ alternate counteroptions against those moves which has been a natural part of the game since ever.

The attack that I referenced doesn't really have shield pushback since it seems to suck you in and tornado you around inside it til it either pokes your shield and throws you away or hits you with the entirety and makes you suffer for not being floaty. That is my experience with it in any case.

 

[Ace55]

I'm more of a coder than a player, and tend to keep to myself.

I see, so you've never been involved with the dutch community?

 

[KayB]

I just wish we could all get along like we used to in middle school. I wish that I could bake a cake made out of rainbows and smiles and we'd all eat and be happy.

Middle school was a ****fest.

 

[ds22]

I see, so you've never been involved with the dutch community?

I did go to a gathering a few years ago, but other than that, not really.

 

[Rikana]

You know what? **** changelogs. It's more fun when people actually attempt to take notice of things in-game and not hugely exaggerate the impact it has on their character/the game.

You have no idea how many false accusations people made based on what they "think" has changed rather than just playing and figuring it out.

 

[GP&B]

You just can't win between "Well, it feels different to me" and "You changed something, game broken, drowning myself in salt brb".

 

[leelue]

Misinformation should never be allowed to spread.

 

[GP&B]

I agree, it's just the response in either situation is irritating. If something will actually have a major impact on the game, it's going to show itself naturally.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I was waiting to post this for a while but then SWF went dedd.

Yeah, because going public with this without giving people even the change to discover this on their own is the professional thing to do. ¬.¬

And your character choices do indeed matter in this case, seeing as you have done a lot of things, both publicly as well as in the backroom, that gives me the impression that you want Zelda the way you want, and everything that has even the slightest external influence on that has to be dealt with, be it by trying to influence the general public, or doing something is such a direction.

I'm not here saying that this shouldn't be discussed, I'm here saying you shouldn't have gone public with this as soon as 2.6b was released, and instead should have left it to the public to decide if this was indeed a problem that needed to be discussed or not.

Project M is still in it's development phases, and while we're trying to gather information from non backroom members without adding bias, you are effectively frustrating that process by having created this thread under a cover that your concerns are valid (which they are BTW).

I'm more of a coder than a player, and tend to keep to myself.

It's just that this particular action made by Ryoko/Wavebuster was something I just had to say something about.

It's been over a month since the demo came out, and people have been keen to changes longer than that month with public preview streams of 2.6 prior. People have already put this in their own personal list of "discovered changes" like on the Reddit well before I made this thread. That's been plenty of opportunity to discover a change. It's simply disingenuous to assume that absolutely no one knew about this change after such a significant timeframe, and that they need some official changelist to be aware of it.

You and some others keep falling back on the same tired argument of "ooh, he develops Zelda without outside influence, he must be disagreeable" when in reality, I outsourced a lot of feedback about what to do from people who actually play the character with others as far as changes done to her. It was a necessity because almost no one played her in PMBR seriously in previous Smash games, and the release of 1.0 was crafted on the basis of making her more "fun" (read: minussy) to people who had no attachment to the character at the expense of those who did. And despite her direction since then, she didn't wind up being something like 2.1 Ike/Lucario or 2.5 Sonic who had plenty of such influence and were actually released publicly in a messy state and also have the the money to back them up. I try not to make changes that ultimately bring up a character to stupidly good levels. If you're going to keep insisting on bringing this subject into unrelated manners at least be aware of the big picture. You insist that overall this change is not a big deal, well of course it might not be when a "global change" affects only enough moves to be counted on one hand. That same reasoning is why I find it stupid, because when it happens to said moves it generates a never before seen level of weird shield interaction foreign even to Brawl which is chock full of silliness.

I do not assume people to be incapable of forming their own opinions. I posted in the topic with my reasoning, some people have responded with theirs. My only influence is what I posted which in itself is not an automatic sway. I have since made respectable attempts to refute their points, which is the entire premise behind healthy debate. If people are that easily influenced by what I posted without making their own educated opinion on the matter then that is not my problem. It would also be ignorant of the fact that people who are "+1" for this kind of stuff aren't their own kind of easily swayed lemming which ultimately had a hand in the implementation of this particular change. Regardless, I don't respond to people's opinions only saying "hey, you're wrong for disagreeing with us," which is more than I can expect of certain bigwig PMBR members who actually have the power to implement code changes on their own, being guilty of doing this even to its own members.

Further, I really do not understand underplaying P:M as being "just an unfinished demo" when sizable groups of people have been playing it for tournaments and prize pots for a couple of years now. I see no sense whatsoever in even saying that. The quality of the game is important at any public release given how people treat it, and I meant it when I said that when changes are controversial and not critical, one needs to be careful. It's easy to cross such a line of development by having no actual connection to the tournament scene or otherwise the very playerbase that you're trying to please and make an audience of.

 

[BJN39]

If it only affects a few chars, (AKA, Zelda) then I'll just say, 90% of you here already hate Zelda and think she's bottom tier. Does she really need this nerf then?