Moves and Matchups Guide: Submissions Thread

[Mmac]

Hmmm..... I see that Yoshi is on the bottom, but you really haven't posted any reasons why.

If your unsure on a matchup, you should see that character's Matchup topic (if they have one) to see what they have to say about your character (If they have any, that is). BTW We have Falcon currently listed as 6:4-7:3 Yoshi. We're still debating on that.

About the Grab Release thing, It does work. You can't Grab Jab when he releases or else he'll escape to the ground. You can forward it up with a Utilt, Usmash, or Uair after he releases. This isn't just for Wario only, you can do this on MetaKnight, Squirtle, and Ganondorf also (But they go to the side, so you gotta chase him). In fact you can even Chaingrab Squirtle and Ganondorf with this also. Side note on Ganondorf, if he Trys to break out (Pressing buttons and rotating the stick), he'll go up, but if he doesn't resist, Ganondorf will break out to the ground.

I also find it funny that you can spell that Characters proper name, but wrote "Ganondorf" as "Ganon"

 

[Red Alloy]

Hmmm..... I see that Yoshi is on the bottom, but you really haven't posted any reasons why.

If your unsure on a matchup, you should see that character's Matchup topic (if they have one) to see what they have to say about your character (If they have any, that is). BTW We have Falcon currently listed as 6:4-7:3 Yoshi. We're still debating on that.

About the Grab Release thing, It does work. You can't Grab Jab when he releases or else he'll escape to the ground. You can forward it up with a Utilt, Usmash, or Uair after he releases. This isn't just for Wario only, you can do this on MetaKnight, Squirtle, and Ganondorf also (But they go to the side, so you gotta chase him). In fact you can even Chaingrab Squirtle and Ganondorf with this also. Side note on Ganondorf, if he Trys to break out (Pressing buttons and rotating the stick), he'll go up, but if he doesn't resist, Ganondorf will break out to the ground.

I also find it funny that you can spell that Characters proper name, but wrote "Ganondorf" as "Ganon"

First note that these are really just varying degrees of "bad". But we do have a counter strategy thread. It's sunk to page 2. I think it's worth putting in the "good links" section, though.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=182617

To be fair, I checked the Yoshi matchup thread and all that was listed was that it was to Yoshi's advantage, but you don't say why. You guys need a better system for that. If you could provide a link to the discussion of Falcon, it would be much appreciated.

 

[Wogrim]

Yoshi is on the bottom because the matchup chart shows him as even, his DSmash isn't as good as it used to be, his eggs have seen better days, and I couldn't remember anything too troublesome about him except combos to UAir.

 

[Jump_Man]

The eggs are awesome in this game, nothing bad about them. The DSmash is pretty lame, yeah, but his tilts, air attacks, and combo potential are all great I always thought Yoshi had the advantage 6:4.

EDIT: Red Alloy, that link you provided didn't mention Yoshi

 

[Mmac]

First note that these are really just varying degrees of "bad". But we do have a counter strategy thread. It's sunk to page 2. I think it's worth putting in the "good links" section, though.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=182617

To be fair, I checked the Yoshi matchup thread and all that was listed was that it was to Yoshi's advantage, but you don't say why. You guys need a better system for that. If you could provide a link to the discussion of Falcon, it would be much appreciated.

Ironically, Yoshi isn't on that list >_>

The Falcon discussion is on I think Page 7-8 (I'm using 30 Post/Page). Burntsocks has the best argument I believe, because he faught "Good" Falcons (I don't think the ones I was fighting were good enough.... then again, they did go straight into my mouth.... constantly)

Id like to say falcon is even or 6-4, after falcon experience in a tourny today (we have really good falcons lol). Falcon is really fast. Like seriously. Not just his running speed as some would think. His main moves are really really fast. Uair, fast, hardly any lag when not autocancelled, kills offstage. Jab, nuff said, comes after uair leads to grabs. Nair, so what if it has no priority, it doesnt need it, it doesnt go up against other attacks. Dair- autocancelled dairs are good. Falcon kick is pretty good. Falcon's playstyle is about as similar to ganny as yoshi is.

Spamming pivot grabs doesnt work, falcon can just land outside and punish with a dash attack to uair or something similarly gay. Yoshi's bair is his main winning point in this matchup, because it outranges most of his attacks while being quick and hard to punish. Cgs are good, but most of my matches were on stages like yoshis island and lylat (unfortunately), and u cant cg there, and grabs arent exactly easy to land. Yoshi can combo falcon fairly well, but falcon can do the same to yoshi(seriously, good falcons are scary). Falling uair->jab->grab is really good, so dont shield it. pivot grab or just get out of there. He can have trouble killing, but he actually can edgeguard yoshi pretty well with uairs. Yoshis dair>falcons upb. Lots of tilts in this matchup, u need the quick priority.

 

[Red Alloy]

Ironically, Yoshi isn't on that list >_>

The Falcon discussion is on I think Page 7-8 (I'm using 30 Post/Page). Burntsocks has the best argument I believe, because he faught "Good" Falcons (I don't think the ones I was fighting were good enough.... then again, they did go straight into my mouth.... constantly)

I did notice that. Probably because he couldn't find it either.

And like I said, all match-ups are just varying degrees of bad here. I wouldn't be surprised if Falcon had a bad match-up with himself.

 

[Wogrim]

Has anyone faced a good Sheik? I've faced a couple good ones and I keep getting 2 stocked.

Her needles do a lot of damage when she throws a full load at you, she can throw single needles to intterupt you, she can counter any approach (you basically have to approach because of the needles) and your recovery with up-B (especially your recovery, since you can't afford to airdodge), and I think she's faster than Falcon (not in run speed, but her air speed and attack speed seem very high). Her FTilt spam gets you up to 80+% damage fairly easily, her fast movement and sliding makes her sliding USmash very good, and her UTilt seems to outprioritize all of Falcon's aerial approaches, and her USmash and DSmash have enough range that rolling behind her is always a bad idea (rolling away is also a bad idea due to needle punishment). When you're trying to recover from up high, her mobility allows her to bait an airdodge and punish it, since nothing will defend you except an airdodge. Since she can switch to Zelda in midair or after she's knocked you offstage it is very hard to punish the swap, and Zelda's got nasty KO power. She can also spam up-B if there are platforms, because you won't have enough time to punish it. Oh and her DTilt likes to shield-poke a lot.

It seems to me that Sheik may be more around DeDeDe difficulty, but I'll definately take more input before I make that move.

As for Wario, he seems to be able to win with one move: FSmash. His FSmash seems to outprioritize most of Falcon's moves, and even on the ones it doesn't the super armor make it worth his while. When trying to outrange him with moves like DTilt, he just outprioritizes it with his FSmash (which I forgot to mention comes out pretty fast) and hits you in the legs since it's not a disjointed hitbox; he doesn't need more range to beat Falcon.
As for other Wario stuff, he can throw his bike to gimp you, his SH-DAir approach shield pokes, and basically all his SH moves are fast and are easily autocancelled (not that they have a ton of landing lag).

So does anyone have some good info to submit on Wario and Sheik before I put that stuff in?

 

[Red Alloy]

I heard DIing towards Shiek and jumping would get you out of tilt lock. Not sure if that's true or not.

For Wario, you can just grab his Fsmash. SA doesn't protect against grabs.

 

[chaindude]

I heard DIing towards Shiek and jumping would get you out of tilt lock. Not sure if that's true or not.
.

your right but if the sheik is good at it they will catch you with a u-tilt or actully turn around and continue the lock

 

[Wogrim]

Preview of some planned changes to the guide

Remember I'm going to be gone for a week, so these changes are a week away. Feel free to post stuff while I'm gone.

 

[Mmac]

Good News Captain Falcon Mains. He can Infinite Wario! Although it's rather hard.

All you need to do is snag him out of the air, after he already used his Double Jump. Because the Jump is already wasted for Wario, he can't escape. All you need to do is just Jab him a few times, Release, Regrab (You need to time it though), and Repeat until he's at a High %, then follow it up with a Uair or Usmash For the kill.

Also note that if you Jab him when he releases, then he'll escape to the ground and the infinite will be broken.

Also, I still think Yoshi is harder to deal with than you might suspect

 

[Wogrim]

Good News Captain Falcon Mains. He can Infinite Wario! Although it's rather hard.

All you need to do is snag him out of the air, after he already used his Double Jump. Because the Jump is already wasted for Wario, he can't escape. All you need to do is just Jab him a few times, Release, Regrab (You need to time it though), and Repeat until he's at a High %, then follow it up with a Uair or Usmash For the kill.

Also note that if you Jab him when he releases, then he'll escape to the ground and the infinite will be broken.

Also, I still think Yoshi is harder to deal with than you might suspect

I'll consider moving Yoshi when I've played a good one.
The Wario grab release thing was mentioned a while back with this response: [post=4800680]post[/post]
Please comment on that post and explain how it's wrong, and also suggest where (exactly where, not just the section) on the matchups Wario should now be (assuming it's truly inescapable), as I don't think it will suddenly be a super easy matchup since he will avoid using his second jump and getting grabbed.

 

[Mmac]

I'll consider moving Yoshi when I've played a good one.

Then play me....

The Wario grab release thing was mentioned a while back with this response: [post=4800680]post[/post]
Please comment on that post and explain how it's wrong, and also suggest where (exactly where, not just the section) on the matchups Wario should now be (assuming it's truly inescapable), as I don't think it will suddenly be a super easy matchup since he will avoid using his second jump and getting grabbed.

Well you're just regrabing him, which is alot faster than doing a Shorthop Sweetspoted Knee. Not to mention that they're different things.... I don't know where Wario should be, because I'm not sure how well he handles him

 

[Wogrim]

It's mostly updated for now, including some character movements.... I'll put the Wario grab release thing in when we've decided how useful/reliable it is so that I know where to move him to (since it should make him significantly easier). Once that's settled I might also move IC and Falco up to nightmare matchups and Pit up to painful.

 

[Iwan]

Originally Posted by Wogrim

{General Move Usage}

{Very Hard Matchups}

Snake

Difficulties

-- Strong tilts make him virtually unapproachable
+ Shield grab?
+ Bait and punish

-- Long-distance dash attack with strong U-smash
+ Shield grab the dash attack. Not sure about the DAC Usmash.

-- Powerful aerials that outrange Falcon's
+ Up-B when below?
+ Aerial Falcon Kick to the side when above?
+ Falcon's U-air outranges Snake's Dair, correct?

--Grenades make it hard to move.
+ Throw them back
+ Always be aware of them. You may have to restrict your mobility a bit, but it's worth not taking 20% out of nowhere.
+ Get in Snake's face (this could be dangerous due to those nasty tilts)
+ A very Nair-able character (Snakes height makes this move effective)

Snake, along with any other character who's tall or big, can be naired pretty effectively

 

[Wogrim]

Mmmm I just NAir everyone.... it's my favorite approach.

 

[Noodlehead]

sorry if i havent contributed,im not good at conducting information.
anyways do you still need help

 

[Wogrim]

I'd say the guide is good for the most part, but there's almost nothing on stages and I havn't gone through and put in the kill/gimp/combo moves for each of the characters since I added that section kinda late, so that's where information would be most helpful. Particularly the combos to avoid, since kill moves and gimp moves are usually pretty obvious. I'm also still waiting for some information as to how much easier the Wario grab release stuff makes him.

 

[Noodlehead]

Pikachu
Good Stages
>Battlefield
++The platforms will protect you from pikachu's thunder bolt(downB)
++The platforms helps you avoid pickachu's lightning bolt(B)

Marth
Damage/Combos:
weak Fair > Side-B forward x4
UAir > USmash

Wario
Bad Stages
> Lyat Cruise
-- The platforms will protect Wario from infinites.
+ Tips for fighting here

Ice Climbers
Bad Stages

> Final Destanation
-- Its easier to get chain grabbed and jab locked here
+ Tips for fighting here


Diddy Kong
General information
If there is a banana near by then you can use it to mess up Diddy Kong's upB recovery.

Link
Bad stages
>Final Destination
--Spam will own you


ill update this post some more later

 

[Noodlehead]

i found this thread with brawl combos would you like to see it?

 

[Wogrim]

Sure just put a link.

 

[Noodlehead]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=168036
here it is
ill put more on stages tommorow too

 

[talkingbeatles]

Mmmm I just NAir everyone.... it's my favorite approach.

You're joking right?
Nair is a terrible approach.

 

[Noodlehead]

You're joking right?
Nair is a terrible approach.

hmm.i disagree.one of his best appraoches IMO

 

[Wogrim]

If you're spaced far enough NAir can't get shield-grabbed from a lot of characters, making it a pretty safe approach against someone who is going to shield, spot-dodge, or roll. With no landing lag, you can go into jabs instantly, which generally beats other character's jabs, tilts, and smashes with their speed. Of course if they do a smash or jump and aerial you'll probably get screwed, but that doesn't happen to me very often, perhaps because I second jump a lot in case they do so I can punish. If they don't know when you're going to approach for real, they'll play very defensively (or they'll approach you if they want to put the game at their pace, which works out pretty nicely), making NAir pretty useful.

 

[talkingbeatles]

If you're spaced far enough NAir can't get shield-grabbed from a lot of characters, making it a pretty safe approach against someone who is going to shield, spot-dodge, or roll. With no landing lag, you can go into jabs instantly, which generally beats other character's jabs, tilts, and smashes with their speed. Of course if they do a smash or jump and aerial you'll probably get screwed, but that doesn't happen to me very often, perhaps because I second jump a lot in case they do so I can punish. If they don't know when you're going to approach for real, they'll play very defensively (or they'll approach you if they want to put the game at their pace, which works out pretty nicely), making NAir pretty useful.

Nair has it's uses, for sure. But it's not an approach move. You use it when you see openings. For me, an approach move has to have some kind of priority. Nair has nothing in the way of priority. Use Nair when someone is coming out of an air dodge. Use Nair to catch someone after rolling. But don' jump at a character Nair-ing away. They'll kill you with a neutral a.

 

[SmashBrother2008]

Nair is also one of his few moves left that can sometimes be used more than once in a row. It's nice to push poeple back at low percentages or to create a half-a55ed WOP with Nair.

 

[talkingbeatles]

Nair is also one of his few moves left that can sometimes be used more than once in a row. It's nice to push poeple back at low percentages or to create a half-a55ed WOP with Nair.

Yeah. I haven't gotten in down yet. I mean, I've seen it before. I know it's possible, I just haven't mastered it.

 

[Wogrim]

Nair is also one of his few moves left that can sometimes be used more than once in a row. It's nice to push poeple back at low percentages or to create a half-a55ed WOP with Nair.

Sadly, NAir WOP only works on characters whose aerials are too slow, since it gets beat by everything in priority.

 

[FAILchion-]

Just a few things I want to add that you left out:

-F-Tilt kills at app. 205-207% (about 180% on light characters), even untipped. However, when his F-Tilt is tipped (meaning it hits with his foot), it has slightly greater knockback, but not by much.

-D-Tilt star-kills at app. 250-252% (about 220% on light characters). When the move is used face-to-face on the opponent, the move occasionally sends the opponent flying horizontally. In that case, D-Tilt kills at around 260% or so.

Btw, these tests weren't DI'd. Just to note.

 

[Wogrim]

Just a few things I want to add that you left out:

-F-Tilt kills at app. 205-207% (about 180% on light characters), even untipped. However, when his F-Tilt is tipped (meaning it hits with his foot), it has slightly greater knockback, but not by much.

-D-Tilt star-kills at app. 250-252% (about 220% on light characters). When the move is used face-to-face on the opponent, the move occasionally sends the opponent flying horizontally. In that case, D-Tilt kills at around 260% or so.

Btw, these tests weren't DI'd. Just to note.

Uh... how often do you get guys over 200%?

 

[FAILchion-]

Uh... how often do you get guys over 200%?

I practiced against Boozer, if it matters. Plus, F-Tilt and D-Tilt are really weak moves. Good effects, but horrible for killing.

 

[Nitros14]

I still love this guide, it's so well layed out and appealing to the eye. Hurry up and fill it all out!

 

[Wogrim]

I practiced against Boozer, if it matters. Plus, F-Tilt and D-Tilt are really weak moves. Good effects, but horrible for killing.

Boozer should be dying earlier since he's such a bit target and has bad recovery. And I didn't know their kill percents because they're not kill moves so I didn't bother to find them out. I still don't want to put them in there though, since I don't want people getting confused and think they're viable kill moves.

I still love this guide, it's so well layed out and appealing to the eye. Hurry up and fill it all out!

I've been gone about 2 of the last 3 weeks and have been working on getting vids up; I love my capture card. I don't have time to do everything at once = (

 

[FAILchion-]

Boozer should be dying earlier since he's such a bit target and has bad recovery. And I didn't know their kill percents because they're not kill moves so I didn't bother to find them out. I still don't want to put them in there though, since I don't want people getting confused and think they're viable kill moves.

If I were against an opponent, then yeah, F-Tilt would be essential to a follow-up aerial. But I was just listing when the move itself kills. It's okay if you don't want to add it, but I just thought you were missing the info, so I just posted it here. Is there anything in particular you need?

 

[Wogrim]

If I were against an opponent, then yeah, F-Tilt would be essential to a follow-up aerial. But I was just listing when the move itself kills. It's okay if you don't want to add it, but I just thought you were missing the info, so I just posted it here. Is there anything in particular you need?

The good and bad stages for each character is the section I don't really know much about, since I pretty much always just choose FD and my opponents will sometimes pick BF or Smashville.

 

[Tenki]

Some more vs Sonic stuff:

Jab can clang/stop Sonic's spindash, dash attack, etc, so use it often to clang-cancel/disrupt those approaches.

His recovery range is significantly lowered if he has no double jump (since he's stuck to only using springs).

U-air does work somewhat well if you can time/space it correctly (for example, space it to sweep behind his attack box, if he's D-airing, or bait airdodges). Just remember that Sonic can stagger his timing alot better than most chracters, so don't be overreliant on it.

 

[chaindude]

Some more vs Sonic stuff:
His recovery range is significantly lowered if he has no double jump (since he's stuck to only using springs).
.

not completly true as sonic can also recover using homing attack for some pretty good vertical and horizontal range and it keeps his spring dont see to many sonics other then myself use it so far tho

 

[SmashBrother2008]

Uh... how often do you get guys over 200%?

Haha. I know. Falcon always kills poeple at around 80%-100%+. Amirite?

 

[Tenki]

not completly true as sonic can also recover using homing attack for some pretty good vertical and horizontal range and it keeps his spring dont see to many sonics other then myself use it so far tho

Homing Attack to recover has the same vertical distance as spring if your opponent is right above you.

Besides, if the person you're playing against has ANY familiarity with the Sonic matchup, dodging HA will cause you to go even lower than you were, and most likely, to die.

It's not completely useless though, you can use it to launch yourself into the ceiling, which is a good setup for a homing-stall recovery, but against an attentive player, you're basically killing yourself with that move unless you're high up.