Social Mother of the Cosmos: Rosalina [General/Social] Thread (Closed)

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I guess the lack of Rosalina players does help avoid seeing her get any serious nerfs with every balance patch update. Frankly, she doesn't even need any nerfs anyway.

 

[TriTails]

IDK. People have been complaining on how dumb Rosalina's and Luma's U-airs are. The former being 'oh so disjointed', lasts forever, and is strong, coupled with Rosalina's high jumps. Luma's U-air can kill as low as 40% WITHOUT RAGE.

Then there's this 'Rosalina camps for 14 seconds until Luma comes back. Her dodges too OP'. Not literally a statement said but it's the general idea.

TBH, I would say her U-air needs some toning down (Near zero characters can even land against Rosalina with a move like that), both hers and Luma. Aside from that, she's pretty fine.

 

[ChikoLad]

IDK. People have been complaining on how dumb Rosalina's and Luma's U-airs are. The former being 'oh so disjointed', lasts forever, and is strong, coupled with Rosalina's high jumps. Luma's U-air can kill as low as 40% WITHOUT RAGE.

Then there's this 'Rosalina camps for 14 seconds until Luma comes back. Her dodges too OP'. Not literally a statement said but it's the general idea.

TBH, I would say her U-air needs some toning down (Near zero characters can even land against Rosalina with a move like that), both hers and Luma. Aside from that, she's pretty fine.

Rosalina's U-air has a very strict sweetspot for getting those early KOs, so I wouldn't call it broken at all. It's like Zelda's F-air/B-air in that regard.

Also you really have to get your opponent near the top of the stage in a lot of cases, which takes practice, especially on something like FD.

Also anyone saying her roll is OP just plain isn't good at the game. Other characters have better rolls, and even then, rolls are much less viable in high level play, as they go a set distance, meaning they can be read easily. Granted, Rosalina can make Luma attack while dodging, but that takes mastery and precise timing. And you'll pretty much never see it happen online either, if that's where these complaints are stemming from.

Rosalina doesn't need any nerfs, she's fine as she is. You know, I find it ironic that people say Rosalina shouldn't be so high on tier lists because she hasn't been winning as much lately. Yet they still ask for nerfs on her. It's like, people aren't willing to change up their strategies for her and take her further and unlock her real potential or even pick her up at all, yet they still want to kill that potential through patches. It's like they think she shouldn't be so high right now, yet they still want to cry for nerfs to make her like, bottom tier. At this point, I think it's just biased and non-sensical hate and misconceptions about the character. Though she's had that outside of Smash too, so what else is new?

Have people figured out why I don't bother with discussing competitive Smash these days that much? It's because the Smash 4 community is **** like that. :V

Also I joined the Discord thing yesterday, since you were asking about that.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

IDK. People have been complaining on how dumb Rosalina's and Luma's U-airs are. The former being 'oh so disjointed', lasts forever, and is strong, coupled with Rosalina's high jumps. Luma's U-air can kill as low as 40% WITHOUT RAGE.

Then there's this 'Rosalina camps for 14 seconds until Luma comes back. Her dodges too OP'. Not literally a statement said but it's the general idea.

TBH, I would say her U-air needs some toning down (Near zero characters can even land against Rosalina with a move like that), both hers and Luma. Aside from that, she's pretty fine.

The u-air is not fool-proof though, since some fighters can actually counter it completely. PAC-MAN is an obvious example, thanks to his Fire Hydrants.

Also, only hitbox frames 8-10 are actually lethal, since after frame 10, the u-air becomes less powerful, not being able to KO Mario until his current damage goes over 240%.

Anyway, disjointed attacks are not exclusive to Rosalina, so it's very silly to be complaining about her disjointed attacks only.

 

[MezzoMe]

Uair is nevertheless a big point in her walling and juggling game.
Regarding Sheik, she has set-ups to obtain her kills, if you can't gain the kill with her at the percentages where those set-ups are possible, it becomes literally a game of hitting the enemy until he dies. That is, assumed you don't go for YOLO USmash/FSmash/Down B/UpB in neutral. And can't net a kill from edgeguarding, take ZeRo vs Mew2King at S@P.

 

[TriTails]

Rosalina's U-air has a very strict sweetspot for getting those early KOs, so I wouldn't call it broken at all. It's like Zelda's F-air/B-air in that regard.

Wot?

It's not THAT strong but it's definitely very strong for a disjointed move that doesn't stretch your hurtbox, while lasting forever. Get hit by the sourspot when she still has he double jump? Get ready for a sweetspot U-air.

Also you really have to get your opponent near the top of the stage in a lot of cases, which takes practice, especially on something like FD.

Problem: Tourney uses platform stages primarily.

Also anyone saying her roll is OP just plain isn't good at the game. Other characters have better rolls, and even then, rolls are much less viable in high level play, as they go a set distance, meaning they can be read easily. Granted, Rosalina can make Luma attack while dodging, but that takes mastery and precise timing. And you'll pretty much never see it happen online either, if that's where these complaints are stemming from.

When saying dodges I didn't directly aiming at her rolls, but the fact them, spotdodges, and her airdodges make her INVISIBLE is a factor as well. She also has above-average ground and aerial mobility to just run away the entire match. It's hard for some characters to catch up and in 14 seconds she is back on being one of the best character again.

I get it SoRo got to be the worst character in the game if she is forced to play like that the entire match but her mobility specs allows her to run away for minimal damage until Luma comes back, which is 100% what people has been screaming about.

Rosalina doesn't need any nerfs, she's fine as she is. You know, I find it ironic that people say Rosalina shouldn't be so high on tier lists because she hasn't been winning as much lately. Yet they still ask for nerfs on her. It's like, people aren't willing to change up their strategies for her and take her further and unlock her real potential or even pick her up at all, yet they still want to kill that potential through patches. It's like they think she shouldn't be so high right now, yet they still want to cry for nerfs to make her like, bottom tier. At this point, I think it's just biased and non-sensical hate and misconceptions about the character. Though she's had that outside of Smash too, so what else is new?

The same thing happened to Luigi, actually.

The u-air is not fool-proof though, since some fighters can actually counter it completely. PAC-MAN is an obvious example, thanks to his Fire Hydrants.

Good luck bashing her head when she has the best aerial acceleration and quite possibly one of the best decceleration along with high double jump with invisible airdodges with a move that stalls you for a bit in the air.

And I haven't tested this, but Rosalina's U-air combined with Luma's deal 14%, enough to reflect the hydrant.

Also, only hitbox frames 8-10 are actually lethal, since after frame 10, the u-air becomes less powerful, not being able to KO Mario until his current damage goes over 240%.

And then the sourspot chains into the sweetspot, which is how Rosalina's double U-air work.

Anyway, disjointed attacks are not exclusive to Rosalina, so it's very silly to be complaining about her disjointed attacks only.

The problem is, her disjointed attacks are fairly long ranging while not exactly sticking her hurtbox out on some attacks (U-air and D-air again), while also being fairly strong and quick in the process. Then you see someone like Ike then wtf that speed.

The main complaining on her isn't about her disjoints, actually. It's on how she isn't taking as much toll when Luma is gone since she can just, run away. Sometimes the opposition may be able to deal massive damage to her, sure, but not every characters can do that. In fact I don't think much characters can do that. Only a select few perhaps... Not everyone have speed.

IDK. I just want her U-air to not be ridiculous. Doesn't matter if it kills or not. The ability to keep people in the air without giving them much opportunities to land on a character with high jumps and floaty fall while also packing huge range on her key move while being disjointed and has a long lasting hitbox is kinda too much. And I'm sure I'm not alone in this opinion.

No offense directed at any of Rosalina mains. I'm aware U-air is a big part in her game, but I do believe a nerf has to be taken for it to be fair...

 

[mario123007]

To be honest, this is actually true for everyone. It's just aggresive playsytles are much more well known, popular, nad just fitting for a fighting game and that's why there's like a bazillion Falcon players out there. I barely meet a Rosalina once for two to three months.

Speaking of which, anyone on Discord????

I had used Rosalina online for quite a while.

I had just register Discord account today, not online for now cuz I'm busy recently!

What I mean though, is that Rosalina can cover more bases than normal, since she has Luma, who can cover a different role than her - hence the concept of paradigms (i.e. a combination of roles from more than one entity).

Like yeah, Mario can play defensively when needed, but he can't really do much in the way of offense and defense at the same time, as he is one character, and he's just better suited to offense.

Which is why I find it ironic Rosalina isn't played more aggressively at times (among other things) - people complain that her players just camp with her or whatever, but that's not because it's the only way to play her, it's because those specific players prefer going for pure defense. Those people can do that if they want, but it isn't using all of the character's tools, not by a longshot. If those people complaining about her not being offensive enough just used her and tried playing her offensively, they'd find something to really appreciate. Rosalina has tons of hype combos and strategies.

This is also probably why most people consider Rosalina hard to master, concept of paradigms can't play well everytime.

Geez the real character that requires huge camp is Villager, Rosalina doesn't have that much projectiles to camp.

Some Rosalina combos really needs Luma to link on, but will be very powerful once mastered.

I guess the lack of Rosalina players does help avoid seeing her get any serious nerfs with every balance patch update. Frankly, she doesn't even need any nerfs anyway.

I really doubt she will get nerfs, I think we need buffs for low tier characters instead of keep nerfing top tier characters.

 

[ChikoLad]

t's not THAT strong but it's definitely very strong for a disjointed move that doesn't stretch your hurtbox, while lasting forever. Get hit by the sourspot when she still has he double jump? Get ready for a sweetspot U-air.

That situation is rare and can be DI'd away from, plus more than a few character's can counter it. Her still having her double jump isn't regular at this point either, sometimes a double jump is required for that first hit at all, so you can get up there quicker.

When saying dodges I didn't directly aiming at her rolls, but the fact them, spot dodges, and her air dodges make her INVISIBLE is a factor as well. She also has above-average ground and aerial mobility to just run away the entire match. It's hard for some characters to catch up and in 14 seconds she is back on being one of the best character again.

I get it SoRo got to be the worst character in the game if she is forced to play like that the entire match but her mobility specs allows her to run away for minimal damage until Luma comes back, which is 100% what people has been screaming about.

The period where she is invisible is just her invincibility period. You know how other characters simply flash with white when they dodge? That's their invincibility period. Rosalina's invisibility is the same thing. If Rosalina's spot dodges, she is going to re-appear at the same place. If she rolls, her distance is set. Air dodges admittedly can be used for slight mind games as her movement is free but it's nothing crazy and you'll rarely do anything special with it.

So yeah, Rosalina's roll is no more broken than any other character's.

I wouldn't call SoRo the worst character in the game at all either, she is still around mid tier. I often go SoRo even when Luma is alive, since it can save unnecessary damage to Luma in the event I get hit, and can open up more combo and KO possibilities in certain situations. She certainly still beats a lot of characters like Mewtwo on her own. Rosalina can run away during this period if she wants but it's actually not the best idea in a lot of cases. It's boring and impractical for a Rosalina to do that in a lot of cases.

Good luck bashing her head when she has the best aerial acceleration and quite possibly one of the best decceleration along with high double jump with invisible airdodges with a move that stalls you for a bit in the air.

I know there are more characters with better aerial acceleration and deceleration than her, but yeah, she certainly isn't the top in that regard.

And I haven't tested this, but Rosalina's U-air combined with Luma's deal 14%, enough to reflect the hydrant.

One of my best friends is a Pac-Man main and we play a lot, so I can confirm this is false. I never go for U-air KO's against Pac-Man as the hydrant goes right through me (IIRC it even beats Luma's U-air, so his hit never even registers on the hydrant), unless he is still in hitstun for when I get to him, or if I can successfully bait the hydrant and avoid it and get him after that.

And then the sourspot chains into the sweetspot, which is how Rosalina's double U-air work.

Sometimes but not always. Most characters can hit her back if she hits with the sour spot before the move's animation finishes. Only the sweet spot is really worth anything, and it's a strict one. It isn't a broken move. Again, Zelda's F-air/B-air is comparable. It can KO characters super early from just about anywhere, but it has a strict sweet spot.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

@ TriTails : The u-air does not have a sweetspot. It all comes down to frame hitbox timing, since if you strike too late, the u-air isn't going to do much, if anything. Similarly, when you're using Rosalina's d-air, striking too soon will not give you the meteor smash hit, while striking too late will offer very little damage and knockback.

If you're looking for moves that have sweetspots, you should reference Marth's moveset, where his sword has to hit at the tip of the blade to be very effective.

 

[Antonykun]

I just want to say, I'm ready for the next Zelda & Lucario raid
View attachment 71584 View attachment 71585
How stupid they look, inferior aren't they?

stealing the Zelda one, the gorls are going to love this

Please don't try to get another raid started. They're actually considered as spam when you think it over.

you can spam a Social Thread?

 

[TriTails]

The period where she is invisible is just her invincibility period. You know how other characters simply flash with white when they dodge? That's their invincibility period. Rosalina's invisibility is the same thing. If Rosalina's spot dodges, she is going to re-appear at the same place. If she rolls, her distance is set. Air dodges admittedly can be used for slight mind games as her movement is free but it's nothing crazy and you'll rarely do anything special with it.

Her spotdodge and rolling animations are almost exactly the same... how can you tell if she's spotdodging or rolling like that? How can you tell where's she's gonna end up on? Is she gonna stay in place or move somewhere else?

I wouldn't call SoRo the worst character in the game at all either, she is still around mid tier. I often go SoRo even when Luma is alive, since it can save unnecessary damage to Luma in the event I get hit, and can open up more combo and KO possibilities in certain situations. She certainly still beats a lot of characters like Mewtwo on her own. Rosalina can run away during this period if she wants but it's actually not the best idea in a lot of cases. It's boring and impractical for a Rosalina to do that in a lot of cases.

Why wouldn't you camp to get Luma back? You ain't gonna accomplishing anything with SoRo if people know what they are doing. That's like putting a huge sign telling 'HEY I'MMA FREE NOW! GET ME!'.

If anything, Rosalina's hurtbox, weight, and floatiness can make the matters worse, as she will be killed early.

I know there are more characters with better aerial acceleration and deceleration than her, but yeah, she certainly isn't the top in that regard.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/AirAcceleration

They're not even close rankings-wise in acceleration. Dunno yet about decceleration, however.

if I can successfully bait the hydrant and avoid it and get him after that.

Which is why Rosalina's aerial mobility specs are useful on avoiding Pac's hydrant.

Sometimes but not always. Most characters can hit her back if she hits with the sour spot before the move's animation finishes. Only the sweet spot is really worth anything, and it's a strict one. It isn't a broken move. Again, Zelda's F-air/B-air is comparable. It can KO characters super early from just about anywhere, but it has a strict sweet spot.

Wouldn't call it 'strict'.

I have seen people landing the sweetspot rather effortlessly.

I kinda can too, if they don't airdodge past me because I guessed wrong.

Similarly, when you're using Rosalina's d-air, striking too soon will not give you the meteor smash hit, while striking too late will offer very little damage and knockback.

Which are more or less the definition of 'sourspot'.

The strong hit is called a sweetspot.
The weak hit is called a sourspot.

That's how people spell them.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I know there are more characters with better aerial acceleration and deceleration than her, but yeah, she certainly isn't the top in that regard.

More than half of the roster has higher aerial mobility than Rosalina. Even Donkey Kong, the second heaviest fighter in the game, outspeeds Rosalina in the air.

Of course, Rosalina only falls faster than Peach and Jigglypuff, while everyone else falls at faster rates. So even though Rosalina may be less mobile in the air than someone like Wario (and surprisingly, Roy), she falls at a slower rate, which helps her recovery.

What does hurt Rosalina's recovery, however, is the lack of a hitbox for her Launch Star special, if she isn't using her Launch Star Attack custom; a move that sacrifices travel distance for added hitboxes, and halts her momentum upon ending, which is detrimental to Rosalina's long distance recovery.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/AirAcceleration

They're not even close rankings-wise in acceleration. Dunno yet about decceleration, however.

SmashWiki doesn't even have an article on air acceleration. I searched, and I got nothing.

 

[ChikoLad]

Her spotdodge and rolling animations are almost exactly the same... how can you tell if she's spotdodging or rolling like that? How can you tell where's she's gonna end up on? Is she gonna stay in place or move somewhere else?

She twirls and moves slightly before disappearing when she is rolling, doesn't when spotdodging.

Once again, if you can't read her dodges, it's your fault.

Why wouldn't you camp to get Luma back? You ain't gonna accomplishing anything with SoRo if people know what they are doing. That's like putting a huge sign telling 'HEY I'MMA FREE NOW! GET ME!'.

If anything, Rosalina's hurtbox, weight, and floatiness can make the matters worse, as she will be killed early.

Those are the words of a cowardly/by the numbers and non-innovative Rosalina player who doesn't learn SoRo properly.

Let me put it this way - Sonic is the fastest character in the game. If you run, he is going to catch you. So what is the other option?

Exactly my point. You may as well use this time to get some extra damage in for Luma's return and therefore, you can KO him earlier and overall keep the flow going, rather than delay the inevitable (when fighting SoRo can actually prevent it). You might get hit, but if you run away, you will also most likely be caught and get hit. It's not like Rosalina has any projectiles in this state anyway (meaning camping actually isn't that viable or useful). You act as if Rosalina's attacks are worthless, yet just a little while ago you were complaining about HER U-air, complaining about her disjoints, complaining about her aerials that don't have too much landing lag, complaining about her Down B, and her high priority attacks. She also still outranges a lot of characters without Luma, and also has some good KO moves. She is far from worthless alone, she still has a lot of ridiculously good merits, you just have to learn them. Heck, her jab finisher is a KO move, especially with rage. The only other character that I think has that is Ike, MAYBE Mewtwo at higher percents.

Also, if you don't actually knock people away yourself, and have them in hitstun, then they are always ready to swat Luma away as soon as he comes back. By attacking with SoRo, you can force the opponent away from you as Luma is returning. If you don't do this, they can easily swat Luma away, as Luma has a little animation when he respawans that Rosalina can't interrupt, meaning he's wide open in that moment. Even if Rosalina punishes say, a dash attack towards a respawning Luma, Luma is still gonna get swatted depending on the move he was hit with.

I feel like this should be common sense, but apparently it isn't.

They're not even close rankings-wise.

Can you clarify what you mean by this then? I was thinking aerial speed. I assume you mean how fast she gets to max air speed on turnaround?

In which case, Rosalina having the best aerial acceleration isn't much when her air speed isn't the best. Air speed isn't terrible by any means, it's actually one of the better ones, but I don't think her aerial acceleration is all that noticeable or obnoxious considering her air speed, seems like it's more of a nitty gritty variable rather than something super impactful to any character.

Wouldn't call it 'strict'.

I have seen people landing the sweetspot rather effortlessly.

I kinda can too, if they don't airdodge past me because I guessed wrong.

3 frames isn't strict? Because that's the active time for Rosalina's U-air sweet spot. Considering this game runs at 60FPS, that is literally 2 frames away from requiring completely perfect timing for the sweet spot. It's literally a split second.

Hitting consistently with this thing requires practice. I'm fairly consistent with it, but that doesn't happen as soon as you pick her up, it requires practice.

 

[Lorde]

IIRC, air acceleration is simply how quickly a character reaches their maximum air speed. Rosalinda's air speed is very averaged (tied with 2 other characters for 29th fastest), so its not like her air mobility is all that great. I'd say it's decent overall.

The fact that Launch Star lacks a hitbox is actually one of her largest flaws imo. Sure, it covers a lot of distance and moves quickly, but she can still be somewhat easy to edgeguard if you know what you're doing. Moves such as Zelda's dtilt and Mario's dash attack that hit below the edge and have lingering frames murder Rosalinda's recovery, especially since landing on the stage can be quite unsafe (especially against faster characters that can catch and punish you during the landing animation). But that's just my 2 cents on the matter.

 

[ChikoLad]

IIRC, air acceleration is simply how quickly a character reaches their maximum air speed. Rosalinda's air speed is very averaged (tied with 2 other characters for 29th fastest), so its not like her air mobility is all that great. I'd say it's decent overall.

The fact that Launch Star lacks a hitbox is actually one of her largest flaws imo. Sure, it covers a lot of distance and moves quickly, but she can still be somewhat easy to edgeguard if you know what you're doing. Moves such as Zelda's dtilt and Mario's dash attack that hit below the edge and have lingering frames murder Rosalinda's recovery, especially since landing on the stage can be quite unsafe (especially against faster characters that can catch and punish you during the landing animation). But that's just my 2 cents on the matter.

I just recover over in instances like that, since Luma can still attack in a helpless state, and you can also easily start a de-synced Luma Spin.

In cases where I don't have Luma and am faced with moves like that, I still recover over. I may get hit, but it's better than being pressured while off stage, and in some cases, you may land too far away for them to catch you.

I don't find the lack of hitbox to be a huge problem on her recovery. It can be annoying in some situations, but only in those certain situations. Otherwise it's fine.

 

[Nadeko Sengoku]

IIRC, air acceleration is simply how quickly a character reaches their maximum air speed. Rosalinda's air speed is very averaged (tied with 2 other characters for 29th fastest), so its not like her air mobility is all that great. I'd say it's decent overall.

The fact that Launch Star lacks a hitbox is actually one of her largest flaws imo. Sure, it covers a lot of distance and moves quickly, but she can still be somewhat easy to edgeguard if you know what you're doing. Moves such as Zelda's dtilt and Mario's dash attack that hit below the edge and have lingering frames murder Rosalinda's recovery, especially since landing on the stage can be quite unsafe (especially against faster characters that can catch and punish you during the landing animation). But that's just my 2 cents on the matter.

I love the Mime JR., it's super cute!

 

[Lorde]

I love the Mime JR., it's super cute!

Thank you! Mime Jr. is one of my favorite Pokemon, along with others such as Spritzee (obviously), Masquerain, Mawile, Gardevoir, and Altaria.
I used to have a little chart thing that has my favorite Pokemon for each type, but it needs a bit of updating now. Maybe I'll update it and post it here.

 

[Steam]

It doesn't really help when everyone is so used to seeing all out offense matches, as that's how it went in the first three Smash Bros. installments. It wasn't until Smash 4 that Rosalina's playstyle came to existence in the series, but it's not an all out offense playstyle, which is probably why very few people even try to main her.

Simply put, the competitive world heavily tends to prefer the rushdown style of gameplay, which is something that Rosalina doesn't excel all that well at without her Luma partner. Even then, Rosalina has to keep the Luma safe in order to efficiently utilize her offense.

>all out offense
>brawl

Also people saying Rosa solo is mid tier is implying one of two things. A. Luma isnt very useful, b. Rosa as a character is busted outta thisthis world. Like id love to see someone attempt to play soro. Maybe she's better than samus?

Rosa probably should get some nerfs so she actually has to use her puppet mechanics to be successful instead of beating everyone's neutral with her jab and killing people at 40 with uair.

 

[Nadeko Sengoku]

Thank you! Mime Jr. is one of my favorite Pokemon, along with others such as Spritzee (obviously), Masquerain, Mawile, Gardevoir, and Altaria.
I used to have a little chart thing that has my favorite Pokemon for each type, but it needs a bit of updating now. Maybe I'll update it and post it here.

Mawile is on my list of favorite pokemon as well and I think it's awesome that they made Altaria a Dragon/Fairy and gave it fluffier Mega-Evolution. Garvedevoir and Mawile are pretty strong especially now

 

[Antonykun]

I like Stunfisk

 

[MezzoMe]

Pac Man's Down B clashes with Luma's Uair, anyway, it doesn't beat it.
On a second note, several attack have 3 frame hitboxes, but that doesn't matter when talking about difficulty in landing, unless you speak of intercepting Quick Attack and the likes, it's more a matter of positioning the deal with landing Uair and hits in general, like Luigi's Up B.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Rosa probably should get some nerfs so she actually has to use her puppet mechanics to be successful instead of beating everyone's neutral with her jab and killing people at 40 with uair.

Again, Rosalina doesn't need any nerfs. The users who lose to Rosalina are just very sour towards her, and aren't willing to exploit her weaknesses; they are there, as the match-up discussion threads do point them out for certain characters.

 

[ChikoLad]

Rosa probably should get some nerfs so she actually has to use her puppet mechanics to be successful instead of beating everyone's neutral with her jab and killing people at 40 with uair.

She already should be in a lot of MUs, but people just opt not to, which makes these MUs worse for them.

A major nerf would only hurt the character more than her player base already is.

 

[Steam]

Again, Rosalina doesn't need any nerfs. The users who lose to Rosalina are just very sour towards her, and aren't willing to exploit her weaknesses; they are there, as the match-up discussion threads do point them out for certain characters.

Every character has weaknesses. Some more prevalent than others, when the dust settles Rosa is near the top of the heap and features toxic game mechanics. All I can say is thank goodness shes received the nerfs she has so she ddoesnt Invalidate chars for free

 

[ChikoLad]

What's funny is that she's probably been more buffed overall than nerfed.

Though that's only if you play her like I do.

EDIT:

Day 287, he still hasn't noticed.

 

[TriTails]

More than half of the roster has higher aerial mobility than Rosalina. Even Donkey Kong, the second heaviest fighter in the game, outspeeds Rosalina in the air.

Of course, Rosalina only falls faster than Peach and Jigglypuff, while everyone else falls at faster rates. So even though Rosalina may be less mobile in the air than someone like Wario (and surprisingly, Roy), she falls at a slower rate, which helps her recovery.

Aerial mobility isn't just taking raw airspeed into account. You can say Ike has a better airspeed than Rosalina, but his aerial mobility is utter garbage compared to her because he can't turn around for bleep in the air.

Lots of people underestimate aerial acc and decc a TON. It's the reason why Wario and Mega has so much control in the air. Try moving around as Rosalina in the air for a bit, then change your character to Ike, you'll be surprised on how much acc and decc affects a character's aerial mobility. Rosalina just move the other way almost immediately after you push the control stick backward, Ike takes forever to turn about. Imagine if Rosalina had that kind of friction in the air. Horrible.

SmashWiki doesn't even have an article on air acceleration. I searched, and I got nothing.

Kurogane Hammer > Smash Wiki at frame data. They datamined the game to get those values. IIRC SmashWIki doesn't even has a page for perfect pivoting.

IIRC, air acceleration is simply how quickly a character reaches their maximum air speed. Rosalinda's air speed is very averaged (tied with 2 other characters for 29th fastest), so its not like her air mobility is all that great. I'd say it's decent overall.

It's definitely higher than just decent. She has a lot of control in the air, something a lot of character lacks (lol Ike and Ryu).

She twirls and moves slightly before disappearing when she is rolling, doesn't when spotdodging.

She... doesn't twirl before disappearing when rollling.

Let me put it this way - Sonic is the fastest character in the game. If you run, he is going to catch you. So what is the other option?

And battling him head on will get you bopped because frame data.

Exactly my point. You may as well use this time to get some extra damage in for Luma's return and therefore, you can KO him earlier and overall keep the flow going, rather than delay the inevitable (when fighting SoRo can actually prevent it). You might get hit, but if you run away, you will also most likely be caught and get hit. It's not like Rosalina has any projectiles in this state anyway (meaning camping actually isn't that viable or useful).

Camping is not only about projectiles. The opposition actually is FORCED to approach you, or else Luma can make them pay.

You act as if Rosalina's attacks are worthless, yet just a little while ago you were complaining about HER U-air, complaining about her disjoints,

She doesn't have the frame data to compete with characters up close. Luma has a better one.

And what does U-air has to do with this? The thing is useful in advantage, NOT in neutral. And in order to put them in disadvantage, you have to win neutral. U-air isn't the thing for that. I was just complaining on how crazy her U-air can be in advantage. Something so disjointed and long lasting shouldn't have that kind of end lag and power.

complaining about her aerials that don't have too much landing lag, complaining about her Down B,

I have no idea what you are talking about.

She also still outranges a lot of characters without Luma, and also has some good KO moves.

And her frame data isn't good. Range doesn't make up for frame data.

She is far from worthless alone, she still has a lot of ridiculously good merits, you just have to learn them. Heck, her jab finisher is a KO move, especially with rage. The only other character that I think has that is Ike, MAYBE Mewtwo at higher percents.

How are you going to land it though? First you have to stick your huge, light body for a FRAME 7 jab. Frame 7. That's REALLY slow.

Also, if you don't actually knock people away yourself, and have them in hitstun, then they are always ready to swat Luma away as soon as he comes back. By attacking with SoRo, you can force the opponent away from you as Luma is returning. If you don't do this, they can easily swat Luma away, as Luma has a little animation when he respawans that Rosalina can't interrupt, meaning he's wide open in that moment. Even if Rosalina punishes say, a dash attack towards a respawning Luma, Luma is still gonna get swatted depending on the move he was hit with.

Like I said, not every character have speed. And the animation is hillariously short. If you actually stayed away, you cna ahve Luma respawn for free without getting interrupted.

I didn't mean just running away the whole match, but playing so defensively until they make a mistake, and then back throw to buy some time... it's what people are complaining. And it's an understandable tactic, Rosalina alone is too much glass and not enough cannon.

Can you clarify what you mean by this then? I was thinking aerial speed. I assume you mean how fast she gets to max air speed on turnaround?

Yes, it's an important-

In which case, Rosalina having the best aerial acceleration isn't much when her air speed isn't the best.

...And?

Airspeed isn't everything. You can have a godlike airspeed but trash acc and decc and I'll still call your air mobility trash. When you got a decent airspeed, having great acc and decc is actually very, very important to your character.

Doesn't matter if her airspeed is in the middle tier, her acc and decc pretty much make up for it. This is especially useful when you want to retreat in the air, something someone like Little Mac can't do as easily.

Air speed isn't terrible by any means, it's actually one of the better ones, but I don't think her aerial acceleration is all that noticeable or obnoxious considering her air speed, seems like it's more of a nitty gritty variable rather than something super impactful to any character.

It's fairly noticeable to me. Dunno to others.

3 frames isn't strict? Because that's the active time for Rosalina's U-air sweet spot. Considering this game runs at 60FPS, that is literally 2 frames away from requiring completely perfect timing for the sweet spot. It's literally a split second.

And that's how every attacks work in this game. Just a split second. But Rosalina's U-air has the bless of having lingering, weaker hitbox that can combo it a sweetspot U-air again.

3 frames are HUGE for a disjointed move that reaches out really far while lasting forever, combos to itself, and is very potent at killing, ESPECIALLY with rage.

Hitting consistently with this thing requires practice. I'm fairly consistent with it, but that doesn't happen as soon as you pick her up, it requires practice.

Top players are consistent with it.

And even then, it's not rocket science to land an U-air.

 

[ChikoLad]

She... doesn't twirl before disappearing when rollling.

She does, look at the pink one's gown, it's twisting as she twirled. Also notice the cloud of dust. There are two visual cues to distinguish between her dodge roll and her spot dodge.

And her frame data isn't good. Range doesn't make up for frame data.

So how does Luma change that, then? I counted, and there are only 7 moves where Luma attacks sooner than Rosalina. While losing Luma certainly makes a difference, the majority of moves still come out as fast as if not faster than Luma's. If you can't land hits with SoRo, then I'm sorry but you just plain are not good with her and haven't practiced her. There are plenty of top and high tier characters that don't have the best frame data, and many of them don't have Rosalina's range, disjoints, priority, and moves that double as dodge maneuveurs. SoRo has plenty of tools for taking on characters with better frame data than her, including Sheik (part of the reason Rosalina is such a viable counter to Sheik).

And Sonic should be the least of your worries as SoRo, lol. His attacks are mostly body blows, so they don't have that much range. SoRo can cut through most of his attacks before they reach her. I say this as someone who also mains Sonic.

But Rosalina's U-air has the bless of having lingering, weaker hitbox that can combo it a sweetspot U-air again.

No, it doesn't, it is very rarely a true combo, especially since U-air doesn't end that quickly.

And even if it did, that'd still be fair, considering how many other characters have poke to KO move combos. And then you have Luigi, with his D-Throw that combos into virtually anything at any%.

Top players are consistent with it.

And even then, it's not rocket science to land an U-air.

It's not rocket science to land one, but it's easier to dodge it than hit with it.

 

[TriTails]

Frame data =/= attack speed.

Some of Rosalina's attacks are laggy in animation (F-air being the big offender). And could you elaborate on 'tools' SoRo has to take on characters with better frame data with her?

Even if she can land hits, her damage iirc isn't great. And make a wrong move just once and you're getting punished, hard due to her weight. Most top players can't risk this, as Rosalina alone is too much glass and not enough cannon. Most top tiers also has top-notch mobility while also having great frame data, probably enough to hit you or bait your moves and punsihing you because of it.

Having Luma changes this as opponent now have to face two characters at once, TWO, which can attack at the same time. Luma packs a ton punch and serves as a meat shield for anyone who tries to approach her, which has to be respected as getting hit now actually mean a hard punish. Rosalina has much more range with Luma and like you always imply, can play paradigm shifters, something Rosalina THRIVES to play. And frame 3 jab is kinda huge, N-air coverage, U-air, F-smash, and U-smash power also. SoRo's range is kinda limited without Luma (N-air providing less coverage, F-smash not being as strong and far-reaching, can't hit people from far away, etc, etc).

U-air sourspot starts doing knockback at around 40%, which should buy you enough time to jump and U-air their butts again. With rage? Hit that Luma U-air and you'll be killin' people at 50%.

Luigi's D-throw is balanced on him having piss mobility and has one of the worst ranges in the game, if not THE worst. Even then, D-throw is easier to DI than Rosalina's U-air and it doesn't kill below 90% without significant risks (Unless he's at max rage in which case wtf are you doing), and it's probably one of the few things worth noting about him. Rosalina has crapton of them. Not to mention his kill moves can be weakened significantly with DI (Cyclone and U-smash) and his problems approaching.

And I have seen Rosalinas hitting U-air ton of times. You can airdodge, she can bait it and hit you with it. It's definitely not easy to dodge.

 

[Killo89]

She does, look at the pink one's gown, it's twisting as she twirled. Also notice the cloud of dust. There are two visual cues to distinguish between her dodge roll and her spot dodge.

You may be right, but I have to say it's quite hard to really understand where and if she's moving. Unlike Palutena, she keeps doing the same pose when she disappears. And in comparison to both of them, Greninja doesn't disappear as long, it means it's easier to know where he will stop.

 

[ChikoLad]

Frame data =/= attack speed.

Some of Rosalina's attacks are laggy in animation (F-air being the big offender). And could you elaborate on 'tools' SoRo has to take on characters with better frame data with her?

Even if she can land hits, her damage iirc isn't great. And make a wrong move just once and you're getting punished, hard due to her weight. Most top players can't risk this, as Rosalina alone is too much glass and not enough cannon. Most top tiers also has top-notch mobility while also having great frame data, probably enough to hit you or bait your moves and punsihing you because of it.

Having Luma changes this as opponent now have to face two characters at once, TWO, which can attack at the same time. Luma packs a ton punch and serves as a meat shield for anyone who tries to approach her, which has to be respected as getting hit now actually mean a hard punish. Rosalina has much more range with Luma and like you always imply, can play paradigm shifters, something Rosalina THRIVES to play. And frame 3 jab is kinda huge, N-air coverage, U-air, F-smash, and U-smash power also. SoRo's range is kinda limited without Luma (N-air providing less coverage, F-smash not being as strong and far-reaching, can't hit people from far away, etc, etc).

U-air sourspot starts doing knockback at around 40%, which should buy you enough time to jump and U-air their butts again. With rage? Hit that Luma U-air and you'll be killin' people at 50%.

Luigi's D-throw is balanced on him having piss mobility and has one of the worst ranges in the game, if not THE worst. Even then, D-throw is easier to DI than Rosalina's U-air and it doesn't kill below 90% without significant risks (Unless he's at max rage in which case wtf are you doing), and it's probably one of the few things worth noting about him. Rosalina has crapton of them. Not to mention his kill moves can be weakened significantly with DI (Cyclone and U-smash) and his problems approaching.

And I have seen Rosalinas hitting U-air ton of times. You can airdodge, she can bait it and hit you with it. It's definitely not easy to dodge.

I'm well aware of what frame data is, I do game design, thanks.

I already elaborated on those tools in my last post.

SoRo's damage is fine, especially if you learn some combos. Her grabs in particular are great for trapping people and linking into high damage combos.

I'm not arguing that Rosalina is better off without Luma, as that's obviously not true, so I don't know why you bring that up. My point is she's not DEFENSELESS or "the worst character in the game" without him, she's not even close to that. She can hold her own and you don't HAVE to run away. The only reason many players run away is because they are cowardly and too lazy to learn SoRo, and only want to use Luma as a defense boosting mechanism. Granted there are some characters where she is better off on the defensive, but that doesn't equate to simply running away, because those characters can still catch you. You can still play a strong baiting game as SoRo, for example, even if you can't always rush people down and pressure them yourself.

People rarely die to Luma's U-air at 50%. You have to have them pretty much off screen for that to happen, as Luma's U-air launches them at a backwards diagonal angle, not straight up. Rosalina's U-air launches almost completely straight and has powerful knockback when the sweet spot hits, so it's generally the more potent KO move. Luma's U-air is actually designed to be spaced so that it can knock people into Rosalina's U-air sweet spot, and that's why it's possible to land it so reliably, though that takes practice.

Luigi's D-Throw isn't balanced out by those things because being able to pull so many ridiculous combos off of one incredibly easy to use move is more than enough to make up for a bit of poor mobility. You barely even need to move much against most characters with him because of it.

Rosalina can't do that to most of the cast as most of the cast falls faster than her. You'll never get that to work against say, Fox, Sheik, or even Dedede, because they simply fall so fast, their air dodge frames pass right through the U-air.

You may be right, but I have to say it's quite hard to really understand where and if she's moving. Unlike Palutena, she keeps doing the same pose when she disappears. And in comparison to both of them, Greninja doesn't disappear as long, it means it's easier to know where he will stop.

That's kinda the point though, it's for mind games. Like how Sonic has like, 4 or 5 moves that look incredibly similar, but function very differently, meaning he can play mind games with you.

And even still, once again, rolls aren't all that viable in competitive play, so a Rosalina player is still mostly gonna spot dodge, unless she is trying to pull off a certain technique or two with Luma.

 

[Steam]

Rule of thumb for you Luigi avatar man, don't actually try to argue with rosalina boards about rosalina, they are always right.

Edit: air accel means more than airspeed. Compare aerial mobility of wario with Ryu. also just play wario in brawl. His insane aerial acceleration alone made him top tier in that game since he could literally wiggle in the air.

 

[ChikoLad]

Rule of thumb for you Luigi avatar man, don't actually try to argue with rosalina boards about rosalina, they are always right

>says this right after I admit to my mistake on aerial acceleration

why the smash 4 competitive community is crap, exhibit #345234

I mean people give the Melee community **** but honestly it isn't nearly as close minded and tunnel visioned in competitive discussion. Despite their game being over a decade old, they are more willing to try out new things and develop the meta.

Smash 4 community is just like:

>A tool is good
"NERF IT"

>A tool is bad
"BUFF IT"

>Individual can't use tool well or hasn't experimented with it.
"Obviously nobody can find any use with this if I can't, until it's buffed"

 

[Steam]

That's all because melee community was forced to accept a long time ago that there will be no game balance.

 

[ChikoLad]

That's all because melee community was forced to accept a long time ago that there will be no game balance.

Smash 4 community should accept that too because patches are not based on high level play, as proven by an interview with Sakurai and by how eye brow raising some of them are (nerfing G&W?????). If anything, that's worse than no patches at all.

And there will come a time where patches will stop. Probably in less than a year.

Also the Melee community could use the PAL version instead but they must find the NTSC one more fun.

 

[MezzoMe]

Anyway, one can literally airdodge through or out of Uair and punish her, her own air dodge is 14 frames shorter than her Uair. Especially if you space it to hit with Luma's Uair or the opponent gets out of Rosalina's range, wich ends as soon as frame 10, that equals to 37 frames of endlag. Barring hard reads, it's simply not worth the risk, Ganondorf air dodges through it, Uairs, and you get splatted to the blast zone at 115% from the center of FD, with no rage and before Uair's damage is added.
And since I'm talking about Ganon, his Uair comes out 2 frame faster, is barely 3 frame longer than her air dodge, alters his hitbox during the animation, and he falls faster than her and than most character, while eating through most attack and not requiring minimal positioning to kill, and can be used in edgeguarding as well, finally, in both situations it can be alternated by other aerials, namely Fair wich, having the whole arm invincible, is even less prone to be countered, with Dair being the only reactable option. In simpler words, an aerial of his pops out of nowhere and you die, if it doesn't you hardly ever punish him, unless you can overpower his aerials(good luck).
That's not to say that it's better, I'm just making a comparison.

 

[TriTails]

I'm not arguing that Rosalina is better off without Luma, as that's obviously not true, so I don't know why you bring that up. My point is she's not DEFENSELESS or "the worst character in the game" without him, she's not even close to that.

I have heard numerous times from experienced Rosalina players that 'Rosalina is bad without Luma'. One of them even said 'Zelda may be trash, but SoRo is infinitely more trash'.

And honestly, I am far more afraid on having more time wasted by her weak B-throw rather than getting hit by (insert something) unless it's an F-smash or U-smash with rage, along with U-air.

It's not that she is defenseless, it's just in comparison to a lot of the cat, she is simply too fragile and weak. Why would you stick your head in a flurry of kicks when you can just run away and take minimal damage?

Example: If you try to box out Luigi or Mario, you'll pretty much guaranteed you'll take more damage than if you just ran away. Because a lot of the cast has this 'I do lotsa damage when I get in' thing, SoRo... can't exactly say much. What are her combos aside from U-throw + U-air that aren't completely out-classed in damage by other combos?

When saying 'camp", this doesn't mean you should act like Greninja and try to run circles. No. I mean 'play keep away, attack as neccesary until Luma comes back'. This means lowering your risk, as Rosalina can't afford many.

Dunno man. From your viewpoint, I can understand that Rosalina can still do damage, it's just it isn't worth the risk because one single mistake may backfire, badly, and may potentially revert everything you have dealt, or even causing you to lose the trade, and mistake in inevitable, even in top level play. With Luma, dealing damage is more efficient and safer.

People rarely die to Luma's U-air at 50%. You have to have them pretty much off screen for that to happen, as Luma's U-air launches them at a backwards diagonal angle, not straight up. Rosalina's U-air launches almost completely straight and has powerful knockback when the sweet spot hits, so it's generally the more potent KO move. Luma's U-air is actually designed to be spaced so that it can knock people into Rosalina's U-air sweet spot, and that's why it's possible to land it so reliably, though that takes practice.

I have seen Greninja taking Luma's U-air, not even in the magnifying glass range, not even had rage, he died at 44% in Mario Circuit.

Luigi's D-Throw isn't balanced out by those things because being able to pull so many ridiculous combos off of one incredibly easy to use move is more than enough to make up for a bit of poor mobility. You barely even need to move much against most characters with him because of it.

He has trouble approaching. First.
He has truble getting around. Second.
He has stubby limbs. Third.
He has trouble with projectiles. Fourth.
He can be camped out by just running away. Fifth.
He need to read DI to deal a lot of damage. Sixth.

Need I go on?

Rosalina can't do that to most of the cast as most of the cast falls faster than her. You'll never get that to work against say, Fox, Sheik, or even Dedede, because they simply fall so fast, their air dodge frames pass right through the U-air.

Then you bait their airdodge. They can't exactly airdodge near the ground because of their falling speed. You can shorthop as they go near, have them probably airdodge, then fast-fall and tomahawk them or something. You don't have to be highnup. Just keep have them eating your 10% U-air until it unstales your other moves and finish them off with a jab finisher from Luma, maybe, or even F-smash.

Airdodging doesn't beat Rosalina's U-air. It doesn't beat anything when it can be baited and has 22 frames of landing lag. It's just up to you to read one and try to take an advantage if you can.

 

[ChikoLad]

I would carry on but it's not worth it at this point, especially if your current mindset is "SoRo is worse than Zelda". That tells me your skill/knowledge with SoRo and the skill/knowledge of those feeding you that opinion.

As for the U-air, nothing you are saying about it is universally possible, the ability to bait is very situational. It's an awesome move but it's fair and balanced.

This discussion seems to have driven people away from the thread so we will just leave it at that. Agree to disagree. I'll keep kicking butt with SoRo, I don't need to convince others on a forum to do that.

 

[Antonykun]

I do not have the strength to climb these walls of text but i will say the look on the blue rosalina is way funnier for what it should be

 

[Steam]

I would carry on but it's not worth it at this point, especially if your current mindset is "SoRo is worse than Zelda". That tells me your skill/knowledge with SoRo and the skill/knowledge of those feeding you that opinion.

As for the U-air, nothing you are saying about it is universally possible, the ability to bait is very situational. It's an awesome move but it's fair and balanced.

This discussion seems to have driven people away from the thread so we will just leave it at that. Agree to disagree. I'll keep kicking butt with SoRo, I don't need to convince others on a forum to do that.

Kicking butt at what tournies against what players?

 

[MezzoMe]

He doesn't go to tournaments yet.
Oh, and "baiting airdodges" equals to "read their DI when thrown", you can win the mindgame just as you can lose it, but there's no guarantee that you'll be able to do this at higher levels, and the risk is not worth the reward, it's the same exact story to "attacking with SoRo brings too much risk and too little reward", one just doesn't throw his stock out of the window because of a failed mindgame.