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Morph balls - A 3.0 Samus video thread

GeZ

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That is a terrible ****ing attitude to have towards someone who has in fact been greeted with hostility and insults for no good reason. Layering more insults on top isn't the answer.

There is nothing wrong with Blondie's attitude. This board is home to some very toxic and frustrating posting, which is the primary reason I stopped visiting as often as I used to. I'm no top player or contributer to the meta but it's not hard to see why people might be reluctant to post here. So cut the ****.
Lordling, Blondie couldn't stand critique. It wasn't phrased in the plushiest manner but if you get chased out of a thread after receiving some not completely positive feedback you probably don't belong in a forum setting. When I started posting I had people telling me I was bad and had no grasp of anything straight away, so I learned to ask questions before I made statements. As I got a better grasp of what I was talking about I'd post more insight and ask less questions. But if I had never had the humility to realize I wouldn't enter the forums knowing everything about everything, I probably would've been chased off like Blondie because that's what happens to players too caught up in themselves.

It takes a good poster to admit they're wrong and move on. Blondie proved that he wasn't capable of this in about 5 posts flat. That's not crazy, but it shows who does or doesn't have the making of someone who can navigate forums without taking everything personally and ruining every conversation they participate in.
 

Litt

Samus
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Lordling, Blondie couldn't stand critique. It wasn't phrased in the plushiest manner but if you get chased out of a thread after receiving some not completely positive feedback you probably don't belong in a forum setting. When I started posting I had people telling me I was bad and had no grasp of anything straight away, so I learned to ask questions before I made statements. As I got a better grasp of what I was talking about I'd post more insight and ask less questions. But if I had never had the humility to realize I wouldn't enter the forums knowing everything about everything, I probably would've been chased off like Blondie because that's what happens to players too caught up in themselves.

It takes a good poster to admit they're wrong and move on. Blondie proved that he wasn't capable of this in about 5 posts flat. That's not crazy, but it shows who does or doesn't have the making of someone who can navigate forums without taking everything personally and ruining every conversation they participate in.
GeZ, you are now my favorite samus on the PM forum, and I will value whatever opinion you posts past this point because the reply you just gave, showed me how intelligent and reasonable of a person you are, even if I do not agree with what you posted. That is THE BIGGEST problem with the PM boards, where all the players on netplay, wifi play or just ones that play with friends, believe themselves to be a god among gods, and come here to boast about their "skill" as well as give advice in match ups they do not play at a higher level, in which they believe the strategies they are using are infallible. These newer players need to take a step back from their arrogance to realize their playstyle may not be perfect, what they contributed was not useful or has already been discovered, and the opponents in which they play, may not be punishing them for silly mistakes that are easily noticeable to the veteran players.
 
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WizKid911

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Klit this is kind of random but I would really like to see a video of how you play. Or who you play. Im not calling you out or anything. I just know that you are very knowledgeable. Youre smarter than the average bear lol.
 

Dyna

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Thanks for linking my videos, CyberMario.
More to come soon ;3
 

ph00tbag

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When are Sami going to learn that swd is the most telegraphed movement option, and it can always be covered on reaction, safely, by basically every character in the game?

Against Wolf, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that dsmash will be your go-to when your back is against the edge. Wolf is a spacie, and you really always want spacies off stage. Dtilt is nice for combos, and is a little bit safer, but even then, the focus of your combos will still be to get that animal off the stage so you can use Samus's edgeguard game.
 
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Thane of Blue Flames

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When are Sami going to learn that swd is the most telegraphed movement option, and it can always be covered on reaction, safely, by basically every character in the game?
I would imagine you'd want to use it in situations where you can't be punished for it, though. Like crossing the stage after a hard FSmash hit for an edgeguard, or a surprise target switch maneuver in doubles.
 

Litt

Samus
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When are Sami going to learn that swd is the most telegraphed movement option, and it can always be covered on reaction, safely, by basically every character in the game?
I answered that question in my post a few above this one ph00t, "That is THE BIGGEST problem with the PM boards, where all the players on netplay, wifi play or just ones that play with friends, believe themselves to be a god among gods, and come here to boast about their "skill" as well as give advice in match ups they do not play at a higher level, in which they believe the strategies they are using are infallible. These newer players need to take a step back from their arrogance to realize their playstyle may not be perfect, what they contributed was not useful or has already been discovered, and the opponents in which they play, may not be punishing them for silly mistakes that are easily noticeable to the veteran players."
 

Litt

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Klit this is kind of random but I would really like to see a video of how you play. Or who you play. Im not calling you out or anything. I just know that you are very knowledgeable. Youre smarter than the average bear lol.
For Wiz, here is the broadcast of me playing last night against one of the top (fox/players) Brookman in CT, he likes to screw around with samus to warm up though, and at 1:21:00 is where I play Spawn, #3 player in CT. http://www.twitch.tv/ct_melee/b/510264101
 

ph00tbag

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I answered that question in my post a few above this one ph00t
I would say Chevy played well overall, if a bit cocky at times. My comment was more because I loathe the SWD.
 

Litt

Samus
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Yeah, he can work on more fluid movement but its hard when you have a ganon going in against you not respecting your spacing or character
 

Dyna

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SWD is never really safe; once you input the bomb you are screaming "SWD" to your opponent.
In my experience, I had to minimize the use of SWD merely to finishers or for reaching purposes (since WD in PM isn't as effective as in Melee, I am talking about Samus).

But once I try to "get in" using SWD means I'll get hit for free because my opponent KNOWS my intentions, at least that happens here with the quality of players I have here.

Just a small advice if some people is trying to get cocky using this overrated AT, it's like selling themselves short, I always punish SWD when I play mirror matches ;3
 

CyberMario

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What if you feint a SWD? You set a bomb up, but you don't move anywhere to fake out your opponent?

For defensive purposes, I SWD in the middle of the stage in a direction that I expect the opponent would not read.
 

Dyna

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I feint SWD a lot for it to be effective when I do it for real, "problem" is, players here are fast at downloading and they are wary when I feint my SWD.
My main example is my old partner, 1233, he knew my intentions for everything I did, so I was fully downloaded, but as for other players, they don't know me as well but SWD is quite an obvious read, mostly because I am trying to teach them how to beat other characters and to avoid being downloaded.

Sometimes I won't attempt SWD at all, relying on my WD alone, just like I did in Melee since I was able to match SWD speed by WD like crazy.
 

Chevy

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Definitely agreed that the SWD is a terrible approach option, alas, these were just friendly matches and it's a very fun option. The more applicable use of it would be, as stated, for chasing/edgeguarding. Although sometimes the fake out works alright. Drop bomb, stand on top of it while they try to kick the incoming Samus, and then just do a missile cancel into zair or something. Thanks for commenting, I'll probably upload some more at some point. I don't have any tournament matches recorded yet, as I've just been to a few of my local tourneys, and not done well, mind you
 

Litt

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Ok... well let me clear something up, just because the swd is easier to do, does not mean it SHOULD be used at all... just using it once shows the opponent you can and will do it when you lay a bomb from a distance, and if you try to do it too close, its just an evasion tech (which is what I firmly believe it should be used as). If anything, you should just demonstrate to your opponent you can and will do the super wave dash should an occasion call for it, but you never actually do it because how predictable and punishable it is... its the same as the extender in melee... just another option for your opponent to worry about even if YOU NEVER USE IT
 

Dyna

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Exactly.
Not using it is also a form of using it to mess with your opponent's head.
Also, in Melee was way more useful when it was made to shield pressure your opponent with bombs.

Jab Cancel > Jab Cancel > Jump into Morph Bomb > SWD Escape.

It's a good pressure mechanic with a great getaway.
Extender was also great to setup after shield pressure, if you bait them into rolling or spot dodge, you have a free throw.
 

CyberMario

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Extender was also great to setup after shield pressure, if you bait them into rolling or spot dodge, you have a free throw.
Much much much easier said than done. I hate grabbing people because I'm absolutely garbage at it. They always sidestep/roll at the nick of time. Anymore advice for when to use the grab?
 
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Dyna

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CyberMario said:
Much much much harder said than done. I hate grabbing people because I'm absolutely garbage at it. They always sidestep/roll at the nick of time. Anymore advice for when to use the grab?
Well, it is definitely easier said than done but this, exposed as my own experience can tell you that using Extender to bait ground-based escapes help a lot.
Just at the moment you take a "small pause" from the jabs, expect them to roll or side-step, perform a grab or dash-grab with Extender while pressing L, when you think hey are vulnerable, press A to grab them.

Make the test with your sparring partners and they'll freak out.

Obviously take note: not everybody will react in the same way, many people will be smarter and attack you OoS unless they are desperate xD
 
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Spralwers

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Some ideas:

Camp Ganon more. Even spacies need to take caution playing rushdown on Ganon. Ganon has lots of decently quick, high damaging, high reach, high priority moves, plus his grab game and tech chasing game are pretty awesome. But his moves aren't that quick, and his mobility is poor. Samus with quicker movement, long zair, and projectiles can take advantage of that pretty easily I think. I noticed that a lot of times you went in, Ganon punished you with an aerial pretty easily.

Boost ball up close more. Ganon hates short characters because jabs and grabs can miss them pretty easily. Jab and grab are Ganon's only quick moves up close, so I think with proper use of this you can basically neutralize Ganon's up close game.

Ice style would probably be good for edgeguarding. Up smash for when he tries to recover above the stage. I need to test this but dtilt might reach him if he tries to recover below the ledge/sweetspot with side B. A well spaced dtilt might be able to hit his lingering hand hitbox on the up B too if he tries to sweet spot with that.
 

ph00tbag

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I will say, even feinting the SWD allows the opponent to control certain spaces for free. You can't just drop a bomb, wait for them to zone out the non-existent SWD with an aerial, then go in and punish the aerial. The timing isn't there for it. This means there is literally no reason for your opponent not to cover the SWD, therefore the SWD itself is never safe, even if the feint is. And even if you bait your opponent with the feint, they can respond to it by actually closing the gap a little bit, so you out with a net loss for trying the SWD, no matter what you do.

It's somewhat useful for edgeguards. I would say the time is better spent running and trying to get a Missile Cancel out, though, since you get more zone control against the recovery, even if you don't move as fast.
 

Chevy

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Some ideas:

Camp Ganon more. Even spacies need to take caution playing rushdown on Ganon. Ganon has lots of decently quick, high damaging, high reach, high priority moves, plus his grab game and tech chasing game are pretty awesome. But his moves aren't that quick, and his mobility is poor. Samus with quicker movement, long zair, and projectiles can take advantage of that pretty easily I think. I noticed that a lot of times you went in, Ganon punished you with an aerial pretty easily.

Boost ball up close more. Ganon hates short characters because jabs and grabs can miss them pretty easily. Jab and grab are Ganon's only quick moves up close, so I think with proper use of this you can basically neutralize Ganon's up close game.

Ice style would probably be good for edgeguarding. Up smash for when he tries to recover above the stage. I need to test this but dtilt might reach him if he tries to recover below the ledge/sweetspot with side B. A well spaced dtilt might be able to hit his lingering hand hitbox on the up B too if he tries to sweet spot with that.
Yea, I should play a little campier probably. Thing is the Ganon I play is so damn good at powershielding by now that it's hard to just spam. But, forcing him to approach with zair is usually very effective, so agreed. I need to play less on autopilot sometimes. Ice is excellent on Ganondorf at high percents. Ice fair beats out all of his aerial options, and ice upsmash kills even his fat ass. The best is ice dtilt though. It can hit his upB and sideB to the ledge unless he sweetspots almost perfectly. It's a kill if you can land one off stage, the trajectory is horrible and by time he gets back you can just ledge-hog him. Ice dtilt is your best friend against narrow recoveries like this, especially if you're afraid to go off stage.
 

Chevy

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I will say, even feinting the SWD allows the opponent to control certain spaces for free. You can't just drop a bomb, wait for them to zone out the non-existent SWD with an aerial, then go in and punish the aerial. The timing isn't there for it. This means there is literally no reason for your opponent not to cover the SWD, therefore the SWD itself is never safe, even if the feint is. And even if you bait your opponent with the feint, they can respond to it by actually closing the gap a little bit, so you out with a net loss for trying the SWD, no matter what you do.
I feel like you're speaking in too many absolutes here. Yes, I agree that it's not a great neutral options. But it's worth pulling out sometimes. It's partially a mindgame thing. Also, you shouldn't just go in with an aerial, you should use the bomb bounce for missile cancel into something. To throw em off even more you could start charging neutralB and cancel before the bomb detonates maybe, haven't tried that. Also, you can bomb, roll back bomb covering your retreat, then sprint forward on top of it for a pseudo-shorthop aerial or missile cancel. If they try to chase you after dropping the bomb, they'll be hit by the bomb on the ground, if they go above, you can upsmash or up air them.

Also worth noting is that you can actually stay in morph ball for the entirety of the SWD if you slide the control stick to crawl, kinda like the beginning of the DSWD input.
 
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Dyna

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I will say, even feinting the SWD allows the opponent to control certain spaces for free. You can't just drop a bomb, wait for them to zone out the non-existent SWD with an aerial, then go in and punish the aerial. The timing isn't there for it. This means there is literally no reason for your opponent not to cover the SWD, therefore the SWD itself is never safe, even if the feint is. And even if you bait your opponent with the feint, they can respond to it by actually closing the gap a little bit, so you out with a net loss for trying the SWD, no matter what you do.

It's somewhat useful for edgeguards. I would say the time is better spent running and trying to get a Missile Cancel out, though, since you get more zone control against the recovery, even if you don't move as fast.
Yep, the "advantage" of feinting is that you have a bomb to protect you.

I definitely agree with all the other points, they are totally valid since the feint is situational when you know it's going to work. That's why I'm aggro :v I'm always pressuring the shield xD
 

ph00tbag

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I feel like you're speaking in too many absolutes here. Yes, I agree that it's not a great neutral options. But it's worth pulling out sometimes. It's partially a mindgame thing. Also, you shouldn't just go in with an aerial, you should use the bomb bounce for missile cancel into something. To throw em off even more you could start charging neutralB and cancel before the bomb detonates maybe, haven't tried that. Also, you can bomb, roll back bomb covering your retreat, then sprint forward on top of it for a pseudo-shorthop aerial or missile cancel. If they try to chase you after dropping the bomb, they'll be hit by the bomb on the ground, if they go above, you can upsmash or up air them.
I meant that your opponent can cover that space with an aerial. The swd creates a dead zone that the opponent can place a hitbox in, and if Samus does swd, she will get hit if the attack is properly timed, but she also won't be able to punish that incursion into her space if she feints. Sure, her opponent can't pressure her directly, but there is no way for Samus to actually challenge the positional advantage that her opponent has gained just by covering the swd option. I can speak in absolutes on this because it is inherent to the frame data. It is physically impossible for Samus to control that dead zone out of a bomb. This isn't to say bombs are inherently bad--Samus has plenty of use for strategically giving up space once she's already gotten to mid-range, but bombs are absolutely not used for closing the gap, and swd does not make them any better at it.
 

Chevy

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I meant that your opponent can cover that space with an aerial. The swd creates a dead zone that the opponent can place a hitbox in, and if Samus does swd, she will get hit if the attack is properly timed, but she also won't be able to punish that incursion into her space if she feints. Sure, her opponent can't pressure her directly, but there is no way for Samus to actually challenge the positional advantage that her opponent has gained just by covering the swd option. I can speak in absolutes on this because it is inherent to the frame data. It is physically impossible for Samus to control that dead zone out of a bomb. This isn't to say bombs are inherently bad--Samus has plenty of use for strategically giving up space once she's already gotten to mid-range, but bombs are absolutely not used for closing the gap, and swd does not make them any better at it.
If you mean that the endlag on morph bomb is too long, than I suppose that makes sense. Good points.
 

ES Lite

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I see what you're saying with the whole deadzone thing, but you can cancel your momentum and drop another bomb or by jumping.
Dropping another bomb can effectively make you dash dance with swd.
 

ph00tbag

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I see what you're saying with the whole deadzone thing, but you can cancel your momentum and drop another bomb or by jumping.
Dropping another bomb can effectively make you dash dance with swd.
But that doesn't cancel the whole bomb animation, which is what causes the dead zone in the first place.
 

ES Lite

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I guess you'd just always want to be far enough away to not get punished for the bomb drop animation, which is based on the matchup
 

ph00tbag

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What I'm saying is that just dropping the bomb from that far away telegraphs your intention to go for the mix-up and allows your opponent to get into a position where they can punish you, either directly through damage, or indirectly through positioning.
 

CyberMario

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Would you guys mind if I make a new fresh thread that'll keep the video list updated?

The Samus board has zero stickies and we must progress forward for people to understand the threat that is Samus. That's how I feel anyway.
 

ph00tbag

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I really wouldn't suggest dairing your opponent onto the stage. If you get them popped into the air with a dair or utilt on grounded, then it's almost always better to nair them to get them offstage. If you dair them back at the ground, and they tech, they can often end up in neutral with you coming back down on them, which is a better position for them.
 

Kati

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I really wouldn't suggest dairing your opponent onto the stage. If you get them popped into the air with a dair or utilt on grounded, then it's almost always better to nair them to get them offstage. If you dair them back at the ground, and they tech, they can often end up in neutral with you coming back down on them, which is a better position for them.
Good point, but what about if you can dair them onto a platform?
 
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