I have plenty to say, but it isn't coming tonight. I have to do a major assignment for criminal law. Hopefully it won't be quite as delayed as my last post ended up being, but I like to think it was worth the wait.
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Monster Mafia - Game Over
- Thread starter Mediocre
- Start date
Well, we only have basically 2 days until the deadline.
So, if no one objects, by midnight EST i'm going to claim. This will give town a chance to decide what we want to do from there.
So, if no one objects, by midnight EST i'm going to claim. This will give town a chance to decide what we want to do from there.
Mac, would you PLEASE stop doing this? At least once a game you make an anti-town comment, get called out on it and draw attention to yourself, then turn around and say it was a joke which is supposed to absolve you from it. If you're town, it just distracts the rest of the town from looking for scum, and that is most certainly not a good thing.
I guess I should have phrased my comment better, as "people whose lynch yields the least worth to the town." I'm glad I phrased it badly though, because you said you wanted to limit the lynch pool to the inactives, then turn around and say you want to get reactions, not actually lynch them. Do you not see the contradiction between those two lines of thought?Emphasis mine.
So we agree that they don't yield any worth to the town? What's the problem then?
Just like you, the main purpose is to get reactions of inactive players, not to actually lynch them.
My thoughts on Scumfever? I can see exactly where people are coming from on him. I would be ok with his lynch today for sure, although I have a different target that my vote will be landing on shortly for the moment.
Jungle said this himself, but BunBun, you really haven't done a whole lot different. If you think this is a reason to find him scummy, then it logically follows that you're scummy as well.
Anyway, for right now I'm going to unvote: Macman, Vote: BunBun. Especially after the above quoted post, in which you call out Jungle for doing pretty much exactly what you yourself have been doing. Coupled with your unsure voting of Cacti earlier and commenting on wanting to move to the next day, I feel you are a very solid lynch candidate. This vote puts you at L-3 and I'll be looking forward to what you have to say.
Since no one seem sto object I'm just going to do it.
I'm ****in Kenzou Tenma. As you can probably guess, I'm the doctor here for town. There's also another important part I'd like to make mention of. I'm a miller, and have been told that.
So...there you have it. I'm the protagonist of the series.
I'm ****in Kenzou Tenma. As you can probably guess, I'm the doctor here for town. There's also another important part I'd like to make mention of. I'm a miller, and have been told that.
So...there you have it. I'm the protagonist of the series.
BunBun
Smash Master
I'd like one of you gentlemen to point out where I've been staying out of things and coasting. I don't see it at all. If I was trying not to draw attention, I wouldn't make posts like the ones that have cast suspicion on me. My posts haven't been 100% focused on defending myself with 1 line posts or saying "sorry, RL was busy". I've been defending my views as well, not just trying to avoid lynch votes.
So no, I think that saying what I've been doing is the same as what Jungle's been doing is completely inaccurate.
This honestly just seems like a 'let's jump on the bunbun wagon' from mentos. What put your vote on me over jungle? My response and opinions on my initial cacti-lynch vote have been laid out and I still agree with them.
So no, I think that saying what I've been doing is the same as what Jungle's been doing is completely inaccurate.
This honestly just seems like a 'let's jump on the bunbun wagon' from mentos. What put your vote on me over jungle? My response and opinions on my initial cacti-lynch vote have been laid out and I still agree with them.
A Doctor... Miller?
I know it's early Omni, but people have been saying that they'd be okay with my lynch before the deadline, so I'm giving them a reason not to, plus it gives town time in order to figure out what to do next.
Yeah, Kev, a Doctor Miller. I did some research on my hcaracter and it makes sense. But take what you wil
Yeah, Kev, a Doctor Miller. I did some research on my hcaracter and it makes sense. But take what you wil
BunBun
Smash Master
Also, jungle's the doctor? Why did you reveal yourself?
BunBun
Smash Master
People post fast. Ignore the questions in my last post 249
post-by-post analysis on BunBun coming up. Not too worried about his comment that it seems like hopping on the wagon, but I feel I may as well put things going through my head out there.
A Deadline Has Been Set:
11:59 PM EST November 12
As of post 249
7/12 votes to lynch
The Current Votecount:
BunBun: 4 (Matunas, Omni, KevinM, mentosman8)
Junglefever: 3 (Marshy, Macman, Cacti)
cacti: 2 (Junglefever, Evil Eye)
Macman: 1 (BunBun)
mentosman8: 1 (Gheb_01)
Search Terms For Maximum Searchability:
DayOneVoteCount
VoteCount
Activity
Nov 9
mentosman8
Marshy
Gheb_01
Junglefever
Evil Eye
mentosman8
Omni
BunBun
KevinM
Nov 8
Rockin
Cacti
Macman
Nov 7
Matunas
Nov 6
INACTIVE
11:59 PM EST November 12
As of post 249
7/12 votes to lynch
The Current Votecount:
BunBun: 4 (Matunas, Omni, KevinM, mentosman8)
Junglefever: 3 (Marshy, Macman, Cacti)
cacti: 2 (Junglefever, Evil Eye)
Macman: 1 (BunBun)
mentosman8: 1 (Gheb_01)
Search Terms For Maximum Searchability:
DayOneVoteCount
VoteCount
Activity
Nov 9
mentosman8
Marshy
Gheb_01
Junglefever
Evil Eye
mentosman8
Omni
BunBun
KevinM
Nov 8
Rockin
Cacti
Macman
Nov 7
Matunas
Nov 6
INACTIVE
BunBun
Smash Master
I'm really just curious how you think I've been coasting at all in the last few days.
BunBun
Smash Master
Also, I'm going to bed, so don't expect a quick reply xD
As I said, post-by-post coming up now. This is pretty much every post of BunBun's throughout the game, except for the question about Jungle being doc and why he revealed and the follow up ignore that since it had been answered already.
The next point you say you are willing to unvote Cacti if we can move discussions to a general discussion. Not sure exactly what you mean, but if you're willing to unvote Cacti you were willing to lynch him early without a solid thought he may be scum. Similarly, you had stated a suspicion of Mac which has never been elaborated on at this point.
To the third, well, playing Devil's Advocate, between your last 3 posts at this point there had been almost no discussion. If we go back to between that, almost nothing had been built up, you hadn't stated a case against anyone yet, and the entire Cacti BW had gone on with only Omni having stated his reason with his vote, followed by 3 unexplained votes(only one of which was explained before your more recent set of posts. Finally, it's better to lynch someone quickly? How do we get more information from that? The only ones who benefit from a quick lynch are scum because town has no ability to draw connections and the lynch was basically a waste unless by some off chance scum is hit.
Also, still no commitment to any case, willing to lynch someone you aren't confident is scum and the last part? There to defend yourself.
You do finally make a vote and commit to a suspicion here, the first time all game you have found a suspicion and put any amount of commitment into it.
You then say putting a lynch vote on someone is a way to get information, but that mostly pertains to people you actually, ya know, believe are scum. Putting votes on people you don't have any kind of case against merely causes pressure on someone, and pressuring someone you don't think is scum is NOT useful information to town, even if it does garner information.
For the scummy vs. new comment, it's just a matter of fact that when playing with newer players there's always a nagging feeling that it's just simple new player mistakes and not actual scum-tells. If you look at my play in newbie maf 2 you can see just how much this can affect your view of peoples play, I barely ever wanted to vote, and don't think I ever had a proper scum-read until it was too late because I second guessed everything based on newness. Not important to my case here, just figured I'd answer your question
Whew, been a long time since I've done something like that. If there's any comments I'll try to respond, but I'm goin out for a while so I can't make any guarantees.
Pretty much no more than saying "sorry RL was busy". While I understand it, it is one of the things you pointed out about Jungle.
Very non-committal post, no real comment on anyone. Mention Mac/Gheb's argument but post none of your thoughts on it.
Admittedly not the most important question of all time, but you had to be requested by another player to answer Marshy's question which you did in this post.
In response to Gheb's question about the best way to start D1, another post doing no more than answering a direct question than you, with no commenting on other players.Usually, the moderator would give us a relevant flavor event to kick things off, and we would talk about the flavor event.
Oh, and
I know you mention this later, but there are no posts between these. The biggest issue between these two posts? You go from "feeling more scum from Mac than Cacti" to voting Cacti in the course of 4 minutes. If you feel Macman is scummier, why would you have placed your vote on Cacti instead of making a case for who you found more suspicious. On top of that, the first post is VERY non-committal, "I don't have a problem doing this, but I'd rather wait." On top of that, I've already given my thoughts and distaste for the move on to night comment, as relying on power-roles is a terrible idea.
Here's a nice short post asking who I find scummy, saying if I don't add something nothing gets settled. At this point in the game you have not pushed your own thoughts whatsoever and proceed to call me out asking who I feel is scum.(In direct response to my questioning statement about unvoting and using our time)
First of all, it's not a matter of people being afraid of casting a no-lynch vote. Town can't win on a no-lynch vote. Lynching gives us connections and the ability to draw those lines helps more than PR's, especially in a game where we don't know the setup and don't know for sure we even have any investigative roles.
The next point you say you are willing to unvote Cacti if we can move discussions to a general discussion. Not sure exactly what you mean, but if you're willing to unvote Cacti you were willing to lynch him early without a solid thought he may be scum. Similarly, you had stated a suspicion of Mac which has never been elaborated on at this point.
To the third, well, playing Devil's Advocate, between your last 3 posts at this point there had been almost no discussion. If we go back to between that, almost nothing had been built up, you hadn't stated a case against anyone yet, and the entire Cacti BW had gone on with only Omni having stated his reason with his vote, followed by 3 unexplained votes(only one of which was explained before your more recent set of posts. Finally, it's better to lynch someone quickly? How do we get more information from that? The only ones who benefit from a quick lynch are scum because town has no ability to draw connections and the lynch was basically a waste unless by some off chance scum is hit.
Also, still no commitment to any case, willing to lynch someone you aren't confident is scum and the last part? There to defend yourself.
Post for nothing but grammar correction: No more useful than Jungle's one liners you mentioned.
You open up the post again admitting you didn't have any strong belief that Cacti was scum, simply wanted to move the game along. Then you move on to the comment about Macman backpedaling, when the ONLY thing he had done since you stated suspicion of him was the vote on you(unless you count his comment on a no lynch as backpedaling which I'm not really sure how that adds up). Then, you follow it up being non-committal again, by voicing suspicion of Mac another time but not voting him, or even stating an FoS.
If you're worried about him jumping on a wagon not giving reasons, why didn't you call out Gheb before he explained his Cacti vote, or Marshy or Macman when they jumped on the Cacti wagon with no reasoning? In fact, you didn't seem to think when I mentioned that that any of those people were scummy, instead you only defended yourself, briefly mentioned Mac(not for that reason, or if it was it wasn't explained), and then you call Mac in particular out when several players, yourself included have hopped wagons with little to no reasoning at this point.
You do finally make a vote and commit to a suspicion here, the first time all game you have found a suspicion and put any amount of commitment into it.
Already explained why NL=bad above. Secondly, the last few posts barely had any content before the posts you mention, and more importantly is a post really worthless just because there's not a vote? Discussion can be moved forward without having to join a bandwagon. Also as I mentioned a couple posts ago, putting someone at L-2 isn't a really big deal, I called it out for reactions.
You then say putting a lynch vote on someone is a way to get information, but that mostly pertains to people you actually, ya know, believe are scum. Putting votes on people you don't have any kind of case against merely causes pressure on someone, and pressuring someone you don't think is scum is NOT useful information to town, even if it does garner information.
For the scummy vs. new comment, it's just a matter of fact that when playing with newer players there's always a nagging feeling that it's just simple new player mistakes and not actual scum-tells. If you look at my play in newbie maf 2 you can see just how much this can affect your view of peoples play, I barely ever wanted to vote, and don't think I ever had a proper scum-read until it was too late because I second guessed everything based on newness. Not important to my case here, just figured I'd answer your question
I will admit Mac's been somewhat scummy seeming, but that is admittedly how he always is. I know you haven't seen him play before, and it's not so much that you're bad at explaining suspicions, it's just that Mac's being... Well, Mac, and you're being scummy enough where(at least to me) you seem more of a prime target.
Your posts are lackluster because almost all of them are defending yourself or extremely non-committal. As you've seen in this post, you had a good number of posts before you even voted someone you actually found suspicious. The key is to push those you find scummy, yet you have barely pushed a Macman case all game despite him being your top suspicion.
I already responded to this, but quoted it since I'm doing PBPA. Once again I state: A lot of your posts have been defense, you've barely pushed or committed to anything, so saying Jungle is scummy for similar things doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
I hope this has laid out my case well and good. You have never taken sides. You have been non-committal. In most of your posts you were only responding to questions or suspicions aimed at you. If you still disagree with my case and think I'm just hopping the wagon, you obviously didn't read this post
Whew, been a long time since I've done something like that. If there's any comments I'll try to respond, but I'm goin out for a while so I can't make any guarantees.
who ops
I like mentos's thingy on BB. Dunno what I think about BB yet, I was getting town before but tuna and mentos brought up good stuff. If BB's the direction we are heading in for the lynch i will definitely support that and push it through.
I kinda wanna look into gheb and cacti now. I'll try to come up with something.
Jungle's claim is good enough for me not to want to lynch him.
I kinda wanna look into gheb and cacti now. I'll try to come up with something.
Jungle's claim is good enough for me not to want to lynch him.
No, I don't. There's a clear difference between calling somebody a good lynch candidate and the action of actually lynching him.
Scumfever's claim is dubious to say the least. A full claim when you're not even the player with the most votes? I guess if nobody CCs your character I'd believe it. Then again there's the whole WIFOM part of claiming a protective role so I need to think about that more...
Half-done my assignment but this has been gnawing at me literally all night, amidst the sea of legal jargon and an ache for sleep.
Super-duper facepalm wtf to sci,fever for his claim. If he's telling the truth he made a massive VI play that has pretty much kicked our *** into a hole it's going to be hard to crawl out of. Assuming he's telling the truth, "giving the town a reason not to [lynch him]" is idiotic reasoning. Sorry jungle, but that's not good enough and sure as hell doesn't make it a smart play. You weren't the lynch, period. You've played enough mafia by now to know that towns don't just roll over and lynch someone in twenty minutes, short of some insane last-minute revelation like a cop coming out to say "Just did the math, I'm going for it, the last scum is _____" and going uncc'd as, by some miracle, every other player posts to confirm they are not a cop. And even then, there'd be doubts.
Moreover, you're also active enough to have stopped any waning-hours or last-day lynch momentum on yourself on Wednesday. A Doc claim almost always brings things to a halt, and for good reason. People expressing vague suspicion of you amidst more eagerly pursued lynch targets is not a reason to claim. I played Cop two games in a row and learned this well. In fact, in both of those games I was being actively pursued as a lynch target by some players, not just the offhand fallback "yeah he's pretty scummy".
One last thing: I know little of Monster, but I've had Dr. Tenma described to me by Mediocre and Mashad, who both swear by the series. Claiming doctor with so little of the spotlight focused on you was a bad call, as I've said, but even in a situation where you were forced to claim, Tenma seems like a character that could just as easily have been a vig, bodyguard, tracker, you name it. Not every character with Doctor in their name has to be the Doctor -- in Spidey Mafia I had three of them, and one was a mad scientist and another was the mafia bus driver.
Hell, you could even make a good case for Medi making him a vanilla to avoid rewarding scum for making flavor-based kills. You had a lot of options here, and your most optimal one was silence.
What you did was stupid and unnecessary, and if your claim is true, town is now in a gargantuan rut. Please learn from this, and learn from it the first time.
Now that I'm done scolding, I'll drop my most immediate thoughts on the claim.
It's a claim with some dubious qualities, certainly. I'm a doctor... but don't investigate me, because it'll just turn up guilty. Most millers, if I recall, do not receive notification as such. As such jungle is claiming a role that he knows should not and rarely is lynched on minimal foundations of evidence, while also pre-emptively warding off investigation -- or, rather, discarding its findings. Self-preservational? Very, but if his claim is legitimate, he needs to be, because he's one of our main weapons.
However, I know that Dr. Tenma is framed by a serial killer in the course of the series. That suggests legitimacy to his miller claim -- or that it, at the very least, is not a quickdrawn defence mechanism fashioned from thin air. It has some precedent in the flavor. That's a start.
More importantly, we've seen scumfever make similarly bad calls in other mafia games as town. In TLI, in fact, as a townie he allowed a scum Lover to convince him to fakeclaim doc. Simply put, because a Lover told him to do it, he did not reason out on his own that there was no town benefit to doing so -- he simply did it, impulsively. Therefore, jungle has precedent for similar behavior in similar situations, as town.
Furthermore, jungle has played antitown often enough to understand the benefit of caution, due to the increased speculative attention and impact of as much. I cannot verify whether this has shown in other games, as I have never played with him in a game where he was antitown, but he has communicated similar thoughts to me on AIM (and prior to this game's signups and commencing). Could what jungle did, either as town or scum, be defined by any existing notions of caution? Hardly. It was a bad play no matter what allignment he is. The claim itself is controversial enough that I simply can't see jungle blurting it out so eagerly if it were invented.
I'm also unsure whether I can see scumfever actually inventing a claim of this sort. It's such a gambit that if it is, in fact, fake, I be inclined to believe it was provided to him. Following that line of thought, I also doubt that such a claim wouldn't come with explicit instructions to avoid using it until the last moment possible.
Lastly, hypothetically assuming that the doctor in this game is a Doctor-Miller (and independently of it allegedly being jungle), I don't deny that possibility. I feel that the importance of the Doctor role to a town and its potential victory strategies (especially in endgame) outweighs the unconventional nature of a miller being informed that they are as much.
As a final note, junglefever has been incredibly brief and untalkative in this game, which I did argue as likely scummy behavior, but which also could be junglefever with a PR trying to stay out of the spotlight. I did not suggest this possibility, though I did consider it, because I think painting a target on possible town PRs is, with no exception, a bad idea; if a vital PR is about to get lynched, they can claim and argue their way out of the hole. There's no reason to point scum to meatier targets than may present themselves during Day discussion.
I remember Marshy behaved somewhat similarly in Spidey, where he did not want to lead town for fear of attracting kills (he was the doctor). He toed the line in a better manner, managing to be more contributory despite flying under the radar, but this doesn't reflect badly or suspiciously on jungle -- marshy's a better player, and so he played a similar situation better. It's simple extrapolation.
As I see it there are three possibilities:
1) jungle is scum. This would indicate the possibility that all or most of our present lynch pool is town, upon which I'll elaborate momentarily. jungle, whose standing with town the mafia (or jungle alone) feels is beyond repair, is fishing for the doc. This is a decent play, as its best case scenario draws out the legitimate doctor, and its worst case scenario sets up a great bussing strategy. However, this is not an optimal play on D1 with the majority of town attention focused elsewhere, so for this reason and in addition to the reasons mentioned above, I don't subscribe to this.
2) junglefever, town, lost his nerve and made a VI play. For everything aforementioned, I consider this the more likely possibility.
3) junglefever is scum, fakeclaiming, and we don't have a doctor. Somewhat tied to number one, this is a possibility in the event that no "true" doctor is ever revealed. However, based on my evaluation of junglefever's way of going about claiming, and his general demeanor since, I am inclined to believe his claim, and thus disbelieve this possibility.
Bonus Round:
FoS Gheb for mentioning a doctor cc-ing jungle. Especially for the insidious and subtle nature of it -- he's suggesting it without openly suggesting it. A newbie doctor or just one disconnected from the game and not in "the zone" might read his post and actually think that that is the course of action to take.
It isn't. To our Doc, if you are not junglefever: Do not counterclaim. If junglefever survives on to D2 and forward, there will be plenty of eyes on him to catch scumtells. You are more useful as an invisible phantom -- you won't be nightkilled (at least, not by virtue of being doctor), and thus you have more nights to potentially save townies and force NKs.
More importantly, no matter what happens, we will get junglefever if he is scum. That's all there is to it. If the real doctor dies, we lynch jungle. I have yet to see a game with two doctors (that's DOCTORS, not nurses, etc), and I can say with some degree of certainty that a Small Game with two doctors would be broken in town favor without some seriously powered-up scum. Even nurses might be broken.
So I propose that if there is a nightkill or lynch that goes through, and the target flips doctor, we lynch junglefever.
If junglefever makes it to endgame, especially likely mylo or lylo, then doctor can claim. In fact, junglefever's being scum despite this claim may prove beneficial, because it allows us to easily prevent a crucial mislynch that would result in the loss of the game later on.
As for possibility number three as defined above, I feel certain that scumfever will reveal himself in the long run through good old fashioned scumtells if he has, in fact, caught scumfever.
Back to the books.
Super-duper facepalm wtf to sci,fever for his claim. If he's telling the truth he made a massive VI play that has pretty much kicked our *** into a hole it's going to be hard to crawl out of. Assuming he's telling the truth, "giving the town a reason not to [lynch him]" is idiotic reasoning. Sorry jungle, but that's not good enough and sure as hell doesn't make it a smart play. You weren't the lynch, period. You've played enough mafia by now to know that towns don't just roll over and lynch someone in twenty minutes, short of some insane last-minute revelation like a cop coming out to say "Just did the math, I'm going for it, the last scum is _____" and going uncc'd as, by some miracle, every other player posts to confirm they are not a cop. And even then, there'd be doubts.
Moreover, you're also active enough to have stopped any waning-hours or last-day lynch momentum on yourself on Wednesday. A Doc claim almost always brings things to a halt, and for good reason. People expressing vague suspicion of you amidst more eagerly pursued lynch targets is not a reason to claim. I played Cop two games in a row and learned this well. In fact, in both of those games I was being actively pursued as a lynch target by some players, not just the offhand fallback "yeah he's pretty scummy".
One last thing: I know little of Monster, but I've had Dr. Tenma described to me by Mediocre and Mashad, who both swear by the series. Claiming doctor with so little of the spotlight focused on you was a bad call, as I've said, but even in a situation where you were forced to claim, Tenma seems like a character that could just as easily have been a vig, bodyguard, tracker, you name it. Not every character with Doctor in their name has to be the Doctor -- in Spidey Mafia I had three of them, and one was a mad scientist and another was the mafia bus driver.
Hell, you could even make a good case for Medi making him a vanilla to avoid rewarding scum for making flavor-based kills. You had a lot of options here, and your most optimal one was silence.
What you did was stupid and unnecessary, and if your claim is true, town is now in a gargantuan rut. Please learn from this, and learn from it the first time.
Now that I'm done scolding, I'll drop my most immediate thoughts on the claim.
It's a claim with some dubious qualities, certainly. I'm a doctor... but don't investigate me, because it'll just turn up guilty. Most millers, if I recall, do not receive notification as such. As such jungle is claiming a role that he knows should not and rarely is lynched on minimal foundations of evidence, while also pre-emptively warding off investigation -- or, rather, discarding its findings. Self-preservational? Very, but if his claim is legitimate, he needs to be, because he's one of our main weapons.
However, I know that Dr. Tenma is framed by a serial killer in the course of the series. That suggests legitimacy to his miller claim -- or that it, at the very least, is not a quickdrawn defence mechanism fashioned from thin air. It has some precedent in the flavor. That's a start.
More importantly, we've seen scumfever make similarly bad calls in other mafia games as town. In TLI, in fact, as a townie he allowed a scum Lover to convince him to fakeclaim doc. Simply put, because a Lover told him to do it, he did not reason out on his own that there was no town benefit to doing so -- he simply did it, impulsively. Therefore, jungle has precedent for similar behavior in similar situations, as town.
Furthermore, jungle has played antitown often enough to understand the benefit of caution, due to the increased speculative attention and impact of as much. I cannot verify whether this has shown in other games, as I have never played with him in a game where he was antitown, but he has communicated similar thoughts to me on AIM (and prior to this game's signups and commencing). Could what jungle did, either as town or scum, be defined by any existing notions of caution? Hardly. It was a bad play no matter what allignment he is. The claim itself is controversial enough that I simply can't see jungle blurting it out so eagerly if it were invented.
I'm also unsure whether I can see scumfever actually inventing a claim of this sort. It's such a gambit that if it is, in fact, fake, I be inclined to believe it was provided to him. Following that line of thought, I also doubt that such a claim wouldn't come with explicit instructions to avoid using it until the last moment possible.
Lastly, hypothetically assuming that the doctor in this game is a Doctor-Miller (and independently of it allegedly being jungle), I don't deny that possibility. I feel that the importance of the Doctor role to a town and its potential victory strategies (especially in endgame) outweighs the unconventional nature of a miller being informed that they are as much.
As a final note, junglefever has been incredibly brief and untalkative in this game, which I did argue as likely scummy behavior, but which also could be junglefever with a PR trying to stay out of the spotlight. I did not suggest this possibility, though I did consider it, because I think painting a target on possible town PRs is, with no exception, a bad idea; if a vital PR is about to get lynched, they can claim and argue their way out of the hole. There's no reason to point scum to meatier targets than may present themselves during Day discussion.
I remember Marshy behaved somewhat similarly in Spidey, where he did not want to lead town for fear of attracting kills (he was the doctor). He toed the line in a better manner, managing to be more contributory despite flying under the radar, but this doesn't reflect badly or suspiciously on jungle -- marshy's a better player, and so he played a similar situation better. It's simple extrapolation.
As I see it there are three possibilities:
1) jungle is scum. This would indicate the possibility that all or most of our present lynch pool is town, upon which I'll elaborate momentarily. jungle, whose standing with town the mafia (or jungle alone) feels is beyond repair, is fishing for the doc. This is a decent play, as its best case scenario draws out the legitimate doctor, and its worst case scenario sets up a great bussing strategy. However, this is not an optimal play on D1 with the majority of town attention focused elsewhere, so for this reason and in addition to the reasons mentioned above, I don't subscribe to this.
2) junglefever, town, lost his nerve and made a VI play. For everything aforementioned, I consider this the more likely possibility.
3) junglefever is scum, fakeclaiming, and we don't have a doctor. Somewhat tied to number one, this is a possibility in the event that no "true" doctor is ever revealed. However, based on my evaluation of junglefever's way of going about claiming, and his general demeanor since, I am inclined to believe his claim, and thus disbelieve this possibility.
Bonus Round:
FoS Gheb for mentioning a doctor cc-ing jungle. Especially for the insidious and subtle nature of it -- he's suggesting it without openly suggesting it. A newbie doctor or just one disconnected from the game and not in "the zone" might read his post and actually think that that is the course of action to take.
It isn't. To our Doc, if you are not junglefever: Do not counterclaim. If junglefever survives on to D2 and forward, there will be plenty of eyes on him to catch scumtells. You are more useful as an invisible phantom -- you won't be nightkilled (at least, not by virtue of being doctor), and thus you have more nights to potentially save townies and force NKs.
More importantly, no matter what happens, we will get junglefever if he is scum. That's all there is to it. If the real doctor dies, we lynch jungle. I have yet to see a game with two doctors (that's DOCTORS, not nurses, etc), and I can say with some degree of certainty that a Small Game with two doctors would be broken in town favor without some seriously powered-up scum. Even nurses might be broken.
So I propose that if there is a nightkill or lynch that goes through, and the target flips doctor, we lynch junglefever.
If junglefever makes it to endgame, especially likely mylo or lylo, then doctor can claim. In fact, junglefever's being scum despite this claim may prove beneficial, because it allows us to easily prevent a crucial mislynch that would result in the loss of the game later on.
As for possibility number three as defined above, I feel certain that scumfever will reveal himself in the long run through good old fashioned scumtells if he has, in fact, caught scumfever.
Back to the books.
I was clearly speaking of a Character CC, not a role CC. I even said "if nobody counterclaims the character then I believe him". I never even mentioned the Doc in that context.
Uhm yeah, this. I realized that I didn't even have the majority vote after I had said this, and it was really stupid on my part. Bunglefever strikes again, I guess you could say.
I'm still okay with Cacti's lynch right now. He's been absolutely useless (even more so than I have) and hasn't responded to any claims on him, when one of them gives a breakdown of everyones posts, and he ends up one of the scummiest.
deadline's in 2 days
Back and reading, will post in a few.
Cacti
Smash Journeyman
K, I'd rather lynch Scumfever as like EE said, Scum is a person that has researched/knows Monster well (I think, he said that he checked out why his character would work out) and is someone who could've possibly made it up. Also, I hate WIFOM, and would rather lynch Scum right now.
Scumfever, how have I been useless? You haven't responded to the claims against yourself either, and there's only been one breakdown of everyone's posts: EE's, where you were the scummiest individually, but he said that I would be the best to lynch as it would give us the best reads on people. I have not been more useless then you, you've done nothing, and at least I tried to start up the discussion in the beginning (and I might've, as the resulting wagon on me led to getting the discussion rolling).
Scumfever, how have I been useless? You haven't responded to the claims against yourself either, and there's only been one breakdown of everyone's posts: EE's, where you were the scummiest individually, but he said that I would be the best to lynch as it would give us the best reads on people. I have not been more useless then you, you've done nothing, and at least I tried to start up the discussion in the beginning (and I might've, as the resulting wagon on me led to getting the discussion rolling).
@ Macman - This was a while ago, but still. I was ok with a jungle lynch before the recent claim situation. It wasn't because I found him particually scummy, but because as of that point in the game he hadn't contributed anything. I was still more comfortable with a BunBun lynch, but if it had come down to it I would have been ok with jungle. Not now.
I'm inclined to believe jungle's claim. As EE said if there is a CC doctor out there, do not do it.
@ Bun Bun - Do you have anything to say about your case against any particular person? Do you have anything to say in your defense outside of "How have I been coasting?" Have you done anything positive for the town so far?
@ Omni - You're still ok with jungle dying? Why?
I'm keeping my vote on Bun Bun. My opinion of him hasn't changed.
I'm inclined to believe jungle's claim. As EE said if there is a CC doctor out there, do not do it.
@ Bun Bun - Do you have anything to say about your case against any particular person? Do you have anything to say in your defense outside of "How have I been coasting?" Have you done anything positive for the town so far?
@ Omni - You're still ok with jungle dying? Why?
I'm keeping my vote on Bun Bun. My opinion of him hasn't changed.
Cacti I'm pretty sure I've answered any questions that have come my way. If there are any that i left unanswered, please, bring them to light.
The problem with Jungle's claim is the whole WIFOM part of it. He's a Doc - OK. Is he cleared? By no means. What if scum doesn't NK him toNight? He'll be alive toMorrow then. That means that his claim will be just as dubious toMorrow as it is toDay except that we have to wonder why scum doesn't NK the Doc. This will make things toMorrow a lot more complicated than we would want be. Marshy is known to advocate the lynch of claimed doctors and the reasons for this are obvious. The fact that scumfever claims doc without being close to a lynch is the cherry on the top of the cake because we have to ask ourselves "scum or dumb" - it's WIFOM again. Cop can't clear him either because he's apparently a miller too.
Unvote Vote Scumfever
Unvote Vote Scumfever
i thought about it and i retract that statement.
first hearing jungle i heard doc and miller which without the nameclaim or without knowing the premise of the show is something i dont want to deal with for the rest of the game in a claim.
but i thought about it in terms of the actual show. it makes complete since why tenma would have such a complicated identity.
basically, tenma was under suspicion of being the murderer of the doctors that died early in the show. the majority of the show is him staying low and preventing arrest.
its been a while since ive seen the show so my instant reaction was "wow lynch doc/miller claim" but associating with his character and the premise of the show nullifies that (considering i believe Medi would give Dr. Tenma that kind of role)
so yeah, bunbun can die with a side of cacti
@gheb: the premise of the show reflects his claim perfectly. read the post above this if u want to understand exactly what you're dealing with but if you HAVENT seen the show or dont know the premise of it than yes reg flags should be around jungle all day
what? get off of jungle. I'm not going to lynch th emain character of this series without a CC.
His claim of WIFOM arguments do ring true though. I give him that. Were it any other character Mac would you not agree?
I'm not trying to push my lynch here >_>. Just saying...
I'm not trying to push my lynch here >_>. Just saying...
well yea duh. doc/miller is the perfect claim for scum. It's kinda like /facepalm cuz wed have to deal with that incredibly ******** wifom all game.
unvote junglefever vote bunbun
A Deadline Has Been Set:
11:59 PM EST November 12
As of post 274
7/12 votes to lynch
The Current Votecount:
BunBun: 5 (Matunas, Omni, KevinM, mentosman8, Marshy)
Junglefever: 3 (Macman, Cacti, Gheb_01)
cacti: 2 (Junglefever, Evil Eye)
Macman: 1 (BunBun)
Search Terms For Maximum Searchability:
DayOneVoteCount
VoteCount
Activity
Nov 10
mentosman8
Macman
Gheb_01
Evil Eye
Junglefever
Marshy
Matunas
Cacti
Omni
Nov 9
BunBun
KevinM
Nov 8
Rockin
Nov 7
INACTIVE
11:59 PM EST November 12
As of post 274
7/12 votes to lynch
The Current Votecount:
BunBun: 5 (Matunas, Omni, KevinM, mentosman8, Marshy)
Junglefever: 3 (Macman, Cacti, Gheb_01)
cacti: 2 (Junglefever, Evil Eye)
Macman: 1 (BunBun)
Search Terms For Maximum Searchability:
DayOneVoteCount
VoteCount
Activity
Nov 10
mentosman8
Macman
Gheb_01
Evil Eye
Junglefever
Marshy
Matunas
Cacti
Omni
Nov 9
BunBun
KevinM
Nov 8
Rockin
Nov 7
INACTIVE
Not ok with lynching Doc D1.
I'd rather see if he lives through N1 before I reevaluate my stance. On this Wifom'y mess.
TO THE COP: IF YOU'RE NEW PLEASE DON'T INVESTIGATE JUNGLE, AS A MILLER CLAIM IT MEANS NO MATTER WHAT HE WILL TURN UP GUILTY.
I feel the need to reiterate that so we don't have a worthless N1 investigation.
I'd rather see if he lives through N1 before I reevaluate my stance. On this Wifom'y mess.
TO THE COP: IF YOU'RE NEW PLEASE DON'T INVESTIGATE JUNGLE, AS A MILLER CLAIM IT MEANS NO MATTER WHAT HE WILL TURN UP GUILTY.
I feel the need to reiterate that so we don't have a worthless N1 investigation.
@marshy: dont bw without an explanation unless im wrong and u said why u were voting bunbun somewhere up there.
whats stopping us from lynching bunbun right now (besides the fact that he hasnt claimed)?
@bunbun: ur probably gonna die. u cool with that? 2 days left bro. speak up.
whats stopping us from lynching bunbun right now (besides the fact that he hasnt claimed)?
@bunbun: ur probably gonna die. u cool with that? 2 days left bro. speak up.
BunBun
Smash Master
Yeah, I resigned myself to death xD
claiming won't help me, as I'll just get killed n1, which will also serve to cast suspicion on jungle, so either way I'm boned.
I'll claim in a couple hours if (and when) noone removes votes from me.
All I'll say now is that I'm not a bad guy, and I think the way I bring discussion was thought as weak or scummy.
claiming won't help me, as I'll just get killed n1, which will also serve to cast suspicion on jungle, so either way I'm boned.
I'll claim in a couple hours if (and when) noone removes votes from me.
All I'll say now is that I'm not a bad guy, and I think the way I bring discussion was thought as weak or scummy.
I believe you bunbun!
i'd rather he not claim and that we switch to gheb or cacti
i'd rather he not claim and that we switch to gheb or cacti
BunBun
Smash Master
@matunas: I've run out of things to defend myself. I was fairly sure I had brought up reasonable discussion, even if a lot of it was on me, and still feel confident about my target. Those reasons haven't changed.