Monster Mafia - Game Over

[Omni]

would be awesome if EE finally read the thread and voiced his impressions on the game like he said he would

 

[Matunas]

After re-reading the thread:

Unvote
Vote: BunBun

EE you need to post.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

EE, Cacti, Marshy and mentos need to post asap. No point in wasting our time - at this rate I'd agree with limiting our lynchpool to the 5 most inactive players, especially Cacti and Mentos.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

Yeah this is true. YOu don't think completely grasping at straws and making a nonsensical case on someone isn't scummy?

you think it is in the context of early d1?

who's down for narrowing the lynch pool for today to the top 5 inactives (not including Iggy/EE)?

ehh. i'm down for ee getting replaced since he was a bad choice

I'm not a fan of lynching inactives on D1 unless we have a reason to think they're scum. We get the least amount of information possible out of the lynch this way.

looks like someone's defending their lurking scumbuddy

He always plays like that.

>: (

macman what's your response to bunbun's 196?

 

[#HBC | Mac]

that i unvoted cuz i didnt think whoever i voted needed a vote from and i voted jungle cuz i liked that wagon

 

[Mediocre]

A Deadline Has Been Set:
11:59 PM EST November 12

mentosman8 has been prodded.



As of post 205

7/12 votes to lynch

The Current Votecount:

Junglefever: 4 (Marshy, Omni, KevinM, Macman)
cacti: 1 (Junglefever)
Rockin: 1 (Cacti)
Macman: 1 (BunBun)
mentosman8: 1 (Gheb_01)
BunBun: 1 (Matunas)


Search Terms For Maximum Searchability:
DayOneVoteCount
VoteCount


Activity

Nov 6
Matunas
Gheb_01
Marshy
Macman

Nov 5
BunBun
KevinM
Rockin
Omni

Nov 4
Junglefever

Nov 3
Evil Eye
Cacti

INACTIVE
mentosman8

 

[Cacti]

@Gheb, I mostly posted against Rockin as a response to Omni urging me to contribute. I thought that if I made some kind of case against someone, it would start some discussion. I had looked back, and Rockin was the only person I saw that could've been acting scummy. I know that it isn't much, mostly grasping at straws, but isn't that how most D1s are started? Someone builds a nonsensical case up on RVS or something, which then starts up discussion that leads to scumtells being found.

Yeah this is true. YOu don't think completely grasping at straws and making a nonsensical case on someone isn't scummy?

It is later on, but in the beginning I'm saying that it's what's used to get D1 rolling, and is not always scummy.

I make it pretty obvious that I posted that case on Rockin was to try to get discussion going, even explaining it in the quote that Jungle was quoting.

unvote vote: Cacti

Your post explaining your post about Rockin was....strange. Posting a case on someoen because someone told you to post? I dunno what to make of it but it's strange to just be throwing such an accusuation out there for little or no reason.

Jungle votes me for posting it as a semi-response to Omni, and says that I threw out "such a accusation" with no reason. I don't see what harm it could've done, and I had already explained why I posted it in the very post Jungle quoted.

Unvote, Vote: Scumfever

 

[mentosman8]

So, Jungle's at L-2 huh? Gonna go back to my last post and catch up from there, expect something shortly.

 

[Evil Eye]

Ain't gonna bother with johns. You know how it goes. However, I have been keeping up with the thread. I'll say off the top of my head that I've found Gheb, Rockin, Cacti, and honorable mention to bunglefever and BunBun for scummiest. However, I shall reread the thread once again while posting my observations. May find some interesting things. In the meantime, I'll say that I think Cacti and Rockin's tizzy all but confirms them as being of different allignments, and thus makes either one of them a strong D1 lynch candidate.

Since I'm going through so much thread at once, I'll be reviving my townpoint/scumpoint analysis style from SWFMafia. (I mean, yeah, town lost that game, but at least it lead me to lynching the traitor instead of the timekeeper)


Surprisingly early on, a few sprinkles of actual conversation had started to form, yet from P64-68, there's a push back to the silliness of RVS. This consists of, in order, Iggy, Omni, Scumfever, Rockin. Now, I know I'm town, so I obviously can't identify this as a scumtell. With that said, I do think there will always be one mafiat within any group that starts to derail discussion, inadvertantly or otherwise. Sure enough, this instance has two of my suspects.

Incidentally, Omni makes a push to get out of the RVS quite shortly after this point. I consider that a town tell. Or should I say, a townpoint.


P77-79: Gheb's spat with Kevmo left a bad taste in my mouth. Kevin's playing the game the way he always does as town; in the ring like a pitbull bouncing about from pressuring one person to the next. As such I pay close attention to how people react when he's on their ***. Gheb responds to the comment "Yeah because we all know how well sarcasm and joking goes over in a game based on picking up reads off of text." with this one:

"Especially in the "joke vote phase", correct?"


It's an interesting point he's trying to make; one that absolves one of their RVS actions because it's the RVS. This is, as any SWF mafia veteran knows, highly erroneous -- people must absolutely be held to their actions in the RVS. If not, there would never be a transition from RVS to actually playing the game.

Gheb, however, sweeps that notion under the rug here, and I'm gonna go right ahead and call that a scumpoint.


Cacti makes the safest possible response to a pointed question from Omni.

I can't call this scummy at all, but I can say it comes across as overly safe. The wording of the post indicates, to me, some serious fence sitting. "I'm fine with this guy's vote, and the other one kinda sorta maybe sorta wasn't that good?"


I'll tentatively call Marshy's P83 a townpoint. Although he seems to have been quiet overall, which is at least in AIMafia one of his few scumtells, I can think of town reasons for Marshy to be quiet. And it could be as simple as him being busy, or it could be other things that I won't get into.

Judging solely by the content of this post, he looks town. For starters, he's putting forth a hell of a lot of discussion topics, which is never good for scum so early on D1. Furthermore, some of the specific questions he asks players fits my meta of marshy's concerns as a townie, such as him humorously asking flat out if Rockin is scum, and saving his best/most telling pointed question for Iggy, a player we've both complained about being very difficult to read. Asking Macman for his thoughts on random voting was also a very town thing to do; Macman plays a silly D1-3 or so, even as town, which gets him a bit of leash from me. The only way to really nail down any kind of read early on is to give him structure.

Overall that post came across to me as strongly protown, with Marshy genuinely trying to glean people's allignments and trustworthiness from his lines of questioning. Townpoint.


P84 from jungle doesn't have anything wrong, per se -- jungle responds to a "sup" from Marshy. However, it did make me realize that the game has been in "real discussion" for a while now by that point, and that junglefever is oen of the game's top posters, and yet he has been posting exclusively fluff as of that point. This is crucial to a player's ability to coast, which we've seen jungle do often as antitown roles. Gonna go halfway on this and give him an scumpoint. There's been plenty to discuss, and jungle's an observant guy.


I like Tuna's first "real" post. He unvotes his jokevote, responds to Marshy's question, and opens a new line of discussion.


P90: Gheb plays Activity Police. AP is an interesting thing. Is it protown? Absolutely. But sometimes it comes off as excessive, or forced, or both. This came off as both, to me. I can't speak to Gheb's playstyle, but from this post I glean that he has a higher interest in being seen playing Activity Police than successful Activity Policing. As bungle said in the posts following, the game had only been on for 48 hours. It's one thing to pressure vote to get somebody going, but Gheb's accompanying comment just came across to me as manufactured and showy.


Sidebar: The response to that post at P92, was jungle's first "real" post. And it was still a oneliner.


Discussion starts to heat up, and Macman puts his SeriousFace on. His case against Gheb is mostly gut-style interpretation, but I have seen this to be how he plays the game. What's important is he's got his SeriousFace on. Like I said, you just gotta give him structure. Townpoint, for now.


Mentos responds to Gheb's Activity Policing.

I always have a hard time reading Mentos, but his response to Gheb's AP was at least rational and solid. He makes a good point about fluff and his own activity, and it actually reinforces Macman's argument that Gheb is looking for convenient lynch targets, in my mind.

At the time I forgot to mention that in Megamafia, Mentos and I were just about tearing our throats out over Xsyven and MasterWarlord, two solid lynch possibilities nobody would hold a grudge over, were replaced. Mafia wants the most convenient lync target it can get its grubby paws on, and going after inactives allows you to push lynches without actually making a case. Does this make people bringing up policy lynching on inactives scummy? Not at all. But it does make people trying to shove an image of inactivity by [insert player] so early on incredibly scummy.

So, retroactively, I shall give Gheb another scumpoint for that one.


P97: Rockin finally responds to Marshy's pointed question, and proceeds to attempt to derail the game with silliness a second time. Despite all the real discussion going on. Furthermore, Rockin says absolutely nothing else. You better believe that's a scumpoint.


BunBun finally enters the game at P100.

I don't like that his first post in the game forced someone to ask: "Do you find anyone or anything suspicious at this point, BunBun?" That's pretty much the definition of insubstantial. However, I will make note of the fact that BunBun sprung to the defence of his pursuer, Gheb. Something to look at if Gheb were to be lynched and flip mafia.

However, BunBun could have just been busy, so I'll just narrow my eyes all suspicious-like and continue on.


BunBun responds later that night to a prod about suspicions with... general observations. Well, uh, that's something, I guess, but clearly not what was asked of you. Seems like the intent was to talk around saying "no I have absolutely nothing to contribute".


P104 by Macman utterly baffles me. Although he came on Gheb a bit strong, there was some validity in what he was saying, if not always in how he was saying it. I don't know what the hell to call this post, but it taints my town view of him up to that point because of how backtracky and ambiguous it is.


Also, I've been reminded (by Gheb of all people) that BunBun ignored Marshy's pointed question. A whole bunch of little things are all I have on BunBun, making this a very unconcrete suspicion, but there's enough for a single scumpoint here, I think. Not sure how I interpret his discussion with Gheb just yet, but the excessive politeness of their back-and-forth reinforces the plausibility of a connection, there.


Rockin answers someone else's question for them and then tries to derail the thread into talking about the plot of Monster.

Rockin, what the ****. Seriously. Scumpoint, because every **** post he has made up to this point has contained in it an attempt to move the discussion away from scumhunting and productive questioning.


At this point Rockin has successfully derailed the discussion into talking about Monster and spoilers and how the two pertain to the game. Instead of, y'know, stuff in the actual game.

And, hey, look who posts at P115 for the first time in a while? Jungle. He's fluffier than a Serta mattress, at this point. scumpoint


As of P117 Rockin has derailed an entire IRL day's worth of discussion to unproductive blathering about spoilers and all that stupid ****. Cacti and Marshy go inactive, Omni and bungle go V/LA.


P123 gives me a super town point for Tuna, because he provides several lines of questioning Marshy-style when the game desperately needed them. Incidentally, in this post he mentions an early name or roleclaim, which is something he mentioned to me before this game started, in casual conversation, from a townie POV.


P126 and Rockin is still pushing the spoilers and etc discussion. I'm flabbergasted, at this point. scumpoint


P128: Gheb takes a staunchly anti-lynching inactives policy stance. Take note of it.


P129: Cacti finally responds to a joke question (but no doubt meant to get a gaugable response) asked forever ago once reiterated and then... carries on the spoiler chatting.


P130: Omni commences a Cacti bandwagon.


P131: Cacti starts playing the game.

See an interesting connection here? Cacti coasts like nobody's business, and responds only when called out. And he makes his first truly substantial post after the words "I'd like to start a Cacti bandwagon" come forth. That's a major scumpoint if ever I saw one.

And to top it off, his instantaneous response directs momentum elsewhere with a new bandwagon! Well how do ya like that. He coasts and dodges, his bandwagon comes up, and WHAMMO, suddenly he's in the trenches. Rather self-preservational. That's another scumpoint right there. Extra partial-credit for "I haven't been paying attention to this game much". Apparently he's paying just enough attention to know when he's in danger, and no more.

But EE, he went after Rockin! That he did, schizophrenic sidekick, and his points are solid ones. This is the major fulcrum point at which I determined that there is almost definitely a scum between Cacti and Rockin, and that it is almost definitely not both. When one comes under fire it makes no sense for the other one to claw him down with him. That's not distancing, that's "if I'm going down, I'm taking you with me!"

I also consider TvT off the table because of their scumminess up to this point.


P133: Rockin responds to Cacti's wagon proposition. Of note, I took interest in this excerpt:

Also, a topic hasn't even been put on the table, so I don't know how I'm exactly derailing when there was no rail in the first place. It's not like I'm explaining about a chaacter, predictions of what said character may have, or their alignment with flavor. I just wanted to ask what the **** theme was about >_>;;

1) Yes, there have been many, many topics put on the table for discussion. Some of which went ignored, and derailing the thread to talk about flavor and how much flavor you can post and how much flavor constitutes a spoiler and how spoilers might be inevitable firmly takes away from that.

2) Incidentally, in Megamafia you were town and did a whole bunch of flavor-discussion, including judging possible allignments for players by their character.

3) scumpoint


Cacti and Rockin are doing a dandy job of making each other look scummy. It's quite the pendulum.


P135: Gheb expresses his support of the Cacti bandwagon. Don't want to tunnel in too much on Rockin or Cacti, so let's go back to this moment later if Gheb is lynched and flips mafia.


P138: jungle posts for the first time in a little while, once again, and only to respond to Tuna's question. So he coasted on fluff for a while, then went V/LA, then didn't un-V/LA until directly questioned. I don't like it. I don't like it one bit. scumpoint


P144: Gheb says he isn't just wagoning Cacti, but rather saying that his post was "complete bullcrap" if he was serious. I thought valid points were made despite finding Cacti scummy, so I'm curious what made the post "complete bullcrap". Hopefully Gheb will elaborate in a future post from this point.


P145-146 from BunBun:

I have no problem with voting cacti, but I'd rather hold my vote until later.
Maybe I'm just bad at this, but I didn't feel as much scum from cacti as I did from good ole' Mac.

Eh, actually, let's get N1 here so we can have some real interaction to base things off of.

vote: Cacti

It stinks. Why do you want to "hold onto your vote" if you don't think anything productive is coming out of D1? Why didn't you make a case against Mac if you find him scummy? If you feel you have a better lead than what town is pursuing, your job as a townie is to pursue said lead. Overall I find anyone that just wants to end the Day scummy by default, because the Day is town's primary weapon, not Night. D1 often becomes pretty darn useful or important when looking back at the paper trail.

A few dabs of "maybe I'm just bad at this" and you've got yourself a scumpoint.

Immediately questioned by Mentos, BunBun responds:

Well, mentos, what are your opinions on who feels scummy?

Nothing gets settled if you don't add something to start that procedure.

The contradiction here is blatant. For the first time BunBun actually implies a suspicion, and goes with the herd instead of pursuing (or in any way explaining) it. He then calls someone else into question for this exact same thing!


P152: A very handsome guy named EE replaces Iggy.


P154, BunBun:

Generally, I hate D1 for this very reason. It's like everyone forgets that we don't have to lynch someone, or rather, everyone is too scared to cast the 'no lynch' vote in fear that when mafia gets lynched, they are looked at suspiciously for casting the 'no lynch' vote.

I'm perfectly willing to remove my vote from Cacti, but only if we can start moving these discussions and accusations along to a general discussion.


Like now, Omni and you are starting to target me, which is fine. Omni brings up a decent point that I kind of just popped in to bandwagon (except that if you look at the material discussed between my last 2 posts....well...no). Lots of people have things they can be called scummy for, but unless we all start talking about them and getting some defense brought up by those people, this won't ever change, and it's just better to lynch someone quickly to get more information.

Emphases mine, and they are blatant contradictions. Like night and day, no pun intended.

Furthermore, lynching someone quickly does not "get more information", because the argumentation leading up to a lynch forms the paper trail people look back on for information and evidence. A quicklynch minimizes the amount of legwork people will have to do to get a lynch going, which in turn helps mask one's motive for getting a particular person lynch. Even further, you'll get less of a defence out of someone if you lynch them quickly, and beyond that, BunBun still has yet to press on Mac for the alleged scummy behavior to elicit these oh so crucial defences.

A really ugly post, that one, and one rife for a scumpoint.


P158: Questioned about his reasoning for voting Cacti, Gheb reiterates that his case against Rockin was "nonsense", but does nothing to refute it. Gheb has had plenty of time to gather his thoughts and make his case, and so there's a scumpoint as I see it.


P164: After being called a "bad guy" and voted for, jungle responds with "nuh uh". Really? No, Marshy's vote was not substantiated, but I think I've displayed in the paper trail exactly why it was made, and that's about the most noncommittal and evasive response I could possibly envision. scumpoint.


P166, BunBun:

I haven't 'flipflopped' stances at all. I didn't have a case against Cacti, but I didn't see a big problem with voting him simply to move the game along. Similarly, if the game can develop without the lynch then I don't have a problem removing my vote from him.

You don't necessarily need a case against someone to vote for them, but you certainly need a reason. Information that you think will be gained. How it would reflect on this player, or that player. You made it clear that you were comfortable with that being a lynch vote, and you did nothing to justify it. "I'm willing to take my vote off" is not justification, it's an exit strategy.

The scummy feeling on Macman I had brought up earlier was furthered along when he backpedaled or changed/clarified his intentions in the post right after. Since then, I haven't seen a lot, other than his vote for me after I brought him back up.

A scummy feeling can't be "furthered along" when you haven't explained it to begin with. And, examples would be nice. This feels haphazardly slapped together on the spot.


P167, Cacti:

@Gheb, I mostly posted against Rockin as a response to Omni urging me to contribute. I thought that if I made some kind of case against someone, it would start some discussion. I had looked back, and Rockin was the only person I saw that could've been acting scummy. I know that it isn't much, mostly grasping at straws, but isn't that how most D1s are started? Someone builds a nonsensical case up on RVS or something, which then starts up discussion that leads to scumtells being found.

Very little is completely wrong with what you said. What I, and I hope others, take issue with is the fact that you only took this initiative when your *** was suddenly on the line. Not before, and not really since.


P169: Jungle's post is so vague I don't even know what his point was. Was that calling him out, supporting him, or just questioning for elaboration? Jungle is coasting this game hard.


P172, Omni:

who's down for narrowing the lynch pool for today to the top 5 inactives (not including Iggy/EE)?

I dislike policy lynches in general, as people probably know. A lurker policy lynch in SWFMafia ended up being a grave mistake. However, I wouldn't mind lynching a coaster, and D1 is as good a time as any to do it. With that said, I think I've demonstrated we have leads worth pursuing.


P174: Gheb gets questioned by Mentos about his vote on Cacti.

I was the 2nd vote on that BW. I can't see the future - how was I supposed to know that 2 or 3 other people would jump the BW afterwards? When I voted him that BW you talk about didn't even exist.

1) Because the vote and post you followed clearly stated their intention of starting a bandwagon.

2) Yes it did.

Then, asked why he didn't explain the vote:

Because nobody asked before that. Didn't feel like explaining it b/c I was only the 2nd vote on that wagon so I didn't think it was a big dead. You still have to answer my question though: What's wrong with Cacti being @ L-2 early in the game?

If you're making a "real vote", unless you're playing some elaborate anti-scum mindgame, you should post your substantiation with the vote. Period. "Didn't feel like explaining it" is BS reasoning, using the fact that you're only the 2nd vote is arguably worse, and "I didn't think it was a big deal" rounds out one hell of a scummy post.

scumpoint


P183: Rockin makes his first actual post of the game, as I see it, and says he believes Cacti's rationale and sits on the fence about his allignment. Seems like Rockin smelled a bandwagon, hopped on, and jumped off before the ship started to sink. Of course, maybe Rockin's town and gullible. I consider that pretty unlikely at this point, and if a Cacti lynch flipped town I think we've got a scumpoint on this classic passive-aggressive noncommittal stance.


P188: Don't like Macman's throwing caution to the wind in terms of hammer at all. That's way too far even for silly early game Macman.


P200: Another fencesitting post from Rockin that semi-advocates an inactivity policy lynch.




Which pretty much brings us up to now.


At present I have Omni, Tuna, KevinM, and Marshy for my probably-town reads. I had Macman, but he's been drifting deeper into question mark territory. Going with my gut, I'm going to say he's likely town, but I'm not firm on that by any means.


And now for a scumpoint tally:

jungle:IIII

Gheb: III

Rockin: IIII

BunBun: III

Cacti: II



Mind you this is somewhat arbitrary, since in some cases I merely questioned something rather than pinning it down as scummy. However, it does help me organize my thoughts.



So, going from my suspects there as my lynch pool, here are my thoughts moving forward:


If we lynch Cacti: We have a long paper trail where discussion seemed to revolve around him. Some very shoddy Cacti votes along the way would put a bad light on some players, including Gheb and BunBun. In the long run this would also allow us to look back to reevaluate our endgame "obvtown" reads and try to pick up scents of deliberately misleading cases or bussing.

Possible Connections: If Cacti were to flip town, I think this would put a big spotlight on Gheb, who got a vote down on him and then sputtered to find any kind of reasoning. BunBun also looks scummy in lieu of this. However, even in the case where Cacti flips mafia, I still consider BunBun a possible scummate, as the vote could just as easily have been distancing. This could have, in fact, been the root cause of the flimsy nature of BB's vote. If Cacti flips town, I think Rockin is definitely mafia given the paper trail above, and if Cacti flips mafia I think Rockin is cleared. No mafiat on the block is going to try to actively start a bandwagon on a scummate. It just doesn't make sense.


If we lynch Rockin: There's not quite as much to go on, but we could take a peek at people who called Rockin out for his behavior and evaluate the sincerity therein. I'm kind of astonished that only someone put in the chair would shed light on what Rockin did, because it screamed scummy to me.

Possible Connections: I think any of this would be more likely illuminated in pursuing his lynch then in retrospect as of this post. However, I think if Rockin flips mafia Cacti is cleared. I also think Gheb's defence of Rockin (which fuelled a Cacti vote) points to Gheb as a likely scumpartner.


If we lynch jungle: There's little to go on, once again. However, jungle is one of the scummiest players in the game right now, and quite a few people have called him out for his behavior. As such. On his own accord, he's a good lynch. It just doesn't point to much in particular on D2.

Possible Connections: We could look at the people who called him out based on his flip and try to get a feel for the intentions therein, ie: if it was an attempt at a derail, bussing, etc.


If we lynch BunBun: BB has been questioned by a good number of people, and the paper trail of the lynch momentum could be telling. He has less scumpoints as identified by my little system, but those that are there are substantial.

Possible Connections: I think if BB flips mafia it points to Gheb as a likely partner. There's also surely something there with BunBun vs Macman, and I think it's differential allignments. Not quite as pronounced as Rockin vs Cacti, but definitive all the same.


If we lynch Gheb: See above.

Possible Connections: BunBun as a possible scum partner, Cacti somewhat cleared if Gheb flips mafia. Rockin as another possible scum partner.



I think jungle is the strongest lynch candidate in terms of personal scumminess. I think if you want to lynch for information, Cacti is the play, as either as town or mafia he puts forth good leads on Gheb, Rockin, and BunBun, and surely several others depending on where the discussion goes from this point.

If it were closer to the deadline I would vote for jungle, but I don't want to put someone at L-1 when we have almost a week left to finalize our course of action.

As such, I will Vote: Cacti instead.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

god thats a longass post

 

[mentosman8]

I already stated my reason for voting Cacti. His vote/"case" against Rockin was the biggest piece of nonsene I've read in a while. If that's supposed to be serious then I don't regret my vote on Cacti at all. If he was joking then I see no problem either - he votes Rockin for making jokes but isn't serious himself? He can't complain about that vote.

Also, what's the problem of somebody being at L-2 this early in the game?

I responded to the first paragraph in one of my earlier posts, I never answered this question though. Your answer? Absolutely nothing. I merely called it out to gauge reactions. I was hoping we would have a nervous scum on the wagon jump off quickly after that comment, and hopefully net something. The main thing I got out of it was BunBun's response, which I didn't really like, but it may also be due to different styles going into this game.

@Gheb, I mostly posted against Rockin as a response to Omni urging me to contribute. I thought that if I made some kind of case against someone, it would start some discussion. I had looked back, and Rockin was the only person I saw that could've been acting scummy. I know that it isn't much, mostly grasping at straws, but isn't that how most D1s are started? Someone builds a nonsensical case up on RVS or something, which then starts up discussion that leads to scumtells being found.

This actually makes perfect sense. I didn't see you as scummy, but that is a very reasonable explanation.

So Junglefever has 3 votes right? The formatting was strange on that.

@Omni - You want to narrow down it down to exactly who then? I'm not a fan of lynching inactives on D1 unless we have a reason to think they're scum. We get the least amount of information possible out of the lynch this way.

Agree with the point made here that lynching for inactivity gives us the least information. Pressuring inactives into talking is one thing, but straight up policy lynching(especially in a game this size) over activity hurts town immensely without some extremely good luck.

I expect to get people to become more active so they can avoid being in the lynch pool. There's no reason for townies to coast and make themselves look more suspicious in that manner.

There are reasons Omni, life happens. Personally in the past week work has been busier than it has been in over a month, I've had my social life, car issues, and various other things to deal with. As much as I try to stay active during the busy weeks like this, it's not always possible, and I know there are others in similar situations.

unvote, vote: jungle

i hope i didn't hammer.

Seriously, WTF at this? Macman, you honestly voted someone not knowing if it was a hammer? That is a ridiculously bad town move, especially when there's a week left before the deadline. Trying to decide if this is dumb, scum, or attempting to joke around.

How is mentos inactive in like all of his games -_-

See response to Omni above Kev. Should be back to being more active now that I'm re-caught-up in all my games and can get through them each day if things get busy again instead of being several pages behind in most.

EE, Cacti, Marshy and mentos need to post asap. No point in wasting our time - at this rate I'd agree with limiting our lynchpool to the 5 most inactive players, especially Cacti and Mentos.

You're willing to limit our lynch pool to... The most unlikely to yield any worth to the town? That's just a terrible idea. The lynch pool should never be limited, and definitely not to only those who haven't had much argument about them who will give us nothing to work with going into tomorrow.

Anyway, for right now, Vote: Macman that vote I quoted just stands out too much for me to not try and pressure you.

 

[mentosman8]

Also, major ninja by EE, but a very thorough post. If I hadn't been scum with you in MegaMaf and seen you make posts that thorough as maf, that would be a massive towntell. Overall though, really, well structured, thought out, and I agree with a lot of the points you brought up.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

god thats a longass post

this.

and lol guys i was kidding about the hammering comment. Sure I didn't know exactly what the vote count was, but i was pretty sure it wasn't gonna be a hammer.

and, i'm gonna have to take EE's post in bits and pieces, and then come up with my thoughts on it/people he's mentioned. Seems fairly protown though.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

tuna, what did you see that made you wanna vote BB?

I looked at EE's post again, and I like the connections he made. And his reasoning for why a Cacti lynch would be the optimal choice.
I was getting gut scumreads from jungle and cacti.

more later when i feel like it

 

[Omni]

i like it. especially cuz im read as town like i should be. plus his way of coming into a game new and doing that thought process is very similar to mine. comfortable

at this point im down for a Bunbun or a Cacti train. since Cacti has already had his fill

Unvote Vote: BunBun

 

[Matunas]

@Marshy - Just stating my view on inactives in response to Omni's post.

@Macman - This is what I've seen on BunBun so far:

100 and 103- His first two posts he mentions Macman. His first post tells Macman to calm down. His second states that Macman "hates random voting quite a bit" and that Gheb and him are having an argument.

106- He misses Marshy's question and has to be questioned on it to answer it.

123- I ask a question which he never answers. It wasn't the most important question out of the bunch, just something to help get discussion rolling.

145- Says he is ok voting Cacti. Says he has a scummy vibe from Macman.

146 - States he just wants the night to arrive and votes Cacti putting him at L-2.

154- The post that has been referred to by a couple people now. Infers that he is okay with a no-lynch. He also says that "it's better to lynch someone quickly to get more information."

166- Unvote Cacti because discussion is moving along.

196- Votes for Macman.

From the beginning he has had to be reminded to answer questions and state his opinion. Posts 145, 146, 154, and 166 are the major points that bother me.

When he votes Cacti his reasoning is to move quickly into N1 directly after stating he'd rather hold his vote. This makes no sense. In four minutes his stance changed completely, and for poor reasoning at that. All the while he has been focused on Macman with no stated case against him. Then comes post 154 saying he thinks people need to remember we can no-lynch. Not only is this a bad idea it goes against his vote on Cacti. The entire "lynch people quickly to get information" line just doesn't make sense. How will this garner any information compared to waiting? This is either poor logic or an attempt to get people to hurry up and vote Cacti.

I'm getting either scummy vibes or very new vibes from BunBun at this point. Right now I'm leaning toward scummy.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

P77-79: Gheb's spat with Kevmo left a bad taste in my mouth. Kevin's playing the game the way he always does as town; in the ring like a pitbull bouncing about from pressuring one person to the next. As such I pay close attention to how people react when he's on their ***. Gheb responds to the comment "Yeah because we all know how well sarcasm and joking goes over in a game based on picking up reads off of text." with this one:

"Especially in the "joke vote phase", correct?"

It's an interesting point he's trying to make; one that absolves one of their RVS actions because it's the RVS. This is, as any SWF mafia veteran knows, highly erroneous -- people must absolutely be held to their actions in the RVS. If not, there would never be a transition from RVS to actually playing the game.

What are those "actions" from the RVS that I must be held to? If they're that noteworthy and important that it earns me a scumpoint from you then surely you can tell me what actions you are talking about because I sure as hell can't.

P90: Gheb plays Activity Police. AP is an interesting thing. Is it protown? Absolutely. But sometimes it comes off as excessive, or forced, or both. This came off as both, to me. I can't speak to Gheb's playstyle, but from this post I glean that he has a higher interest in being seen playing Activity Police than successful Activity Policing. As bungle said in the posts following, the game had only been on for 48 hours. It's one thing to pressure vote to get somebody going, but Gheb's accompanying comment just came across to me as manufactured and showy.

Read Simpsons/TS Mafia. I'm always the first one to call out/pressure inactive players. It's nothing new to anybody who played with me before. Yes, I do curse inactivity because there is no reason for a townie to coast or stall discussion by not actively taking part.

At the time I forgot to mention that in Megamafia, Mentos and I were just about tearing our throats out over Xsyven and MasterWarlord, two solid lynch possibilities nobody would hold a grudge over, were replaced. Mafia wants the most convenient lync target it can get its grubby paws on, and going after inactives allows you to push lynches without actually making a case. Does this make people bringing up policy lynching on inactives scummy? Not at all. But it does make people trying to shove an image of inactivity by [insert player] so early on incredibly scummy.

No, it doesn't. It's just one possible interpretation of a player who pushes for activity but not the whole story. Just like you give me a "scumpoint" for nudging inactives I could give you one for discouraging that pushing. It's convenient for scum to pressure inactives, that is true. However it's also convenient for scum to push the players nudging inactives. That whole argument is WIFOM and I find it funny that you argue with it so lightly. Point is there's no reason to be inactive unless you're scum.

You're also very inconsistent. You're giving me a scumpoint for that one but not for Omni? Bias much?

P128: Gheb takes a staunchly anti-lynching inactives policy stance. Take note of it.

Blatant exaggeration. I said I'm against lynching inactives after D1, not against it in general. D1 is the only time you can reasonably afford a mislynch/lynch merely for the purpose of information or - ding dong - to get rid of inactive players, who single-handedly degenerate into tools for the mafia.

P144: Gheb says he isn't just wagoning Cacti, but rather saying that his post was "complete bullcrap" if he was serious. I thought valid points were made despite finding Cacti scummy, so I'm curious what made the post "complete bullcrap". Hopefully Gheb will elaborate in a future post from this point.

P158: Questioned about his reasoning for voting Cacti, Gheb reiterates that his case against Rockin was "nonsense", but does nothing to refute it. Gheb has had plenty of time to gather his thoughts and make his case, and so there's a scumpoint as I see it.

His point was indeed nonensial. Those are his points:

"In a time when people are trying to get us out of RVS by being aggressive (you can see what KevinM is doing, and Macman's accusing of Gheb), Rockin brings up a joke."
"Rockin is trying to keep us in RVS as long as he can to keep D1 unproductive."

Seriously? Making a joke once does equal "trying to keep D1 unproductive as long as possible" now? There are no clear defined borders between the "serious" stage and the RVS so calling out a player for making one joke in a game that has been extremely stagnant could be easily seen as an attempt to "break the ice" and not as an attempt to keep D1 unproductive - after all it wasn't productive at all at that point.

"Also, he starts a whole other debate on flavor that has been derailing us."

Again, it doesn't make sense. How was the discussion about flavour derailing to us? The truth is that it wasn't derailing because the game wasn't moving forward before the Cacti BW. Calling somebody falsely out for stalling discussion that never happened sounds pretty hypocritical when it comes from a player, who admittedly doesn't focus on this game as much and only adds to the discussion when he's accused or BWd.

1) Because the vote and post you followed clearly stated their intention of starting a bandwagon.

That's the intention of one player (the one before) but not the intention of everybody who followed - intentions I could not foresee, no matter how you try to argue it.

2) Yes it did.

1 Vote =/= BW

Then, asked why he didn't explain the vote:

I was never asked such a question.

If you're making a "real vote", unless you're playing some elaborate anti-scum mindgame, you should post your substantiation with the vote. Period. "Didn't feel like explaining it" is BS reasoning, using the fact that you're only the 2nd vote is arguably worse, and "I didn't think it was a big deal" rounds out one hell of a scummy post.

Be more specific. How is it scummy? Macman voted and unvoted Cacti too but never actually responded to mentos, who called the ppl on the BW out. His action literally confirmed that it wasn't a big deal or else there would've been mention of it but there never was up to now.

Possible Connections: If Cacti were to flip town, I think this would put a big spotlight on Gheb, who got a vote down on him and then sputtered to find any kind of reasoning.

In contrast to players, who didn't even feel the need to find said reasoning?
If you really believe that Cacti flipping town = me being scum then you're surprisingly naive. Last time I checked town can vote (or BW) other townies because they don't know if they're actually town or not. Only scum would know.

I think jungle is the strongest lynch candidate in terms of personal scumminess. I think if you want to lynch for information, Cacti is the play, as either as town or mafia he puts forth good leads on Gheb, Rockin, and BunBun, and surely several others depending on where the discussion goes from this point.

Points like this are only acceptable if you're trying to gauge reactions. Other than that it's a massive logical fallacy. I explained it above but if you really think that me voting Cacti once automatically and irreversably means that we must have different allignments then you're pretty mistaken. Using the same logic I could state that me flipping town would make you obvscum and it would be just as illogic.

Your conclusions are pretty short-sightened and your generalisations are almost ridiculous. Me defending Rockin because I said that Cacti's argument sucks and that means we're scummbuddies and me, BunBun, Rockin all have the same allignment, which under no circumstances can be the same as Cacti? That's one of the most oversiplified constructions I've ever read.

Mafia wants the most convenient lync target it can get its grubby paws on

As such, I will Vote: Cacti instead.

How convenient.

I responded to the first paragraph in one of my earlier posts, I never answered this question though. Your answer? Absolutely nothing. I merely called it out to gauge reactions. I was hoping we would have a nervous scum on the wagon jump off quickly after that comment, and hopefully net something. The main thing I got out of it was BunBun's response, which I didn't really like, but it may also be due to different styles going into this game.

OK

You're willing to limit our lynch pool to... The most unlikely to yield any worth to the town? That's just a terrible idea. The lynch pool should never be limited, and definitely not to only those who haven't had much argument about them who will give us nothing to work with going into tomorrow.

Emphasis mine.

So we agree that they don't yield any worth to the town? What's the problem then?
Just like you, the main purpose is to get reactions of inactive players, not to actually lynch them.

 

[Omni]

You're also very inconsistent. You're giving me a scumpoint for that one but not for Omni? Bias much?

just to make this clear

inactivity didn't become an issue for me until inactivity actually occured whereas you were on

Why do people sign up for Mafia games when they don't even play it? This is especially @ Mentos, BunBun, Iggy.

Unvote Vote BunBun

2 days into the game you complained about inactivity. i didnt start complaining until much much later. don't group me with your EE scumpoints k ty

 

[Rockin]

Hmm. Interesting. I shall form up a post pretty soon.

 

[Cacti]

So, EE, what your saying is that it would be best to lynch me as I would give the town the most information as to who would be town or scum. However, I disagree with being able to decide Rockin, Gheb, and Bunbun's alignments from lynching me. For Gheb, I really do not see what is so scummy about being on a bandwagon early on, some people actually do it for pressure. However, when somebody joins a bandwagon late in the same fashion someone would if they joined early, such as saying "I agree" or parroting others to make it seem like their joining is justified, then it is scummy. I really do not see how Gheb's alignment could be so easily seen just from my flip.

Same with BunBun, although less so. I think that you think this as BunBun has just been scummy in general, as you say that BunBun could've been partners with Gheb or me.

As for Rockin, I think that this is the only plausible one. However, I think that lynching Jungle would be a much better play for D1, as he is someone that you seem rather certain is scum. I think that one scum dead is better then a some good reads on two players, which could be recieved from discussion in D1 before the deadline.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

P84 from jungle doesn't have anything wrong, per se -- jungle responds to a "sup" from Marshy. However, it did make me realize that the game has been in "real discussion" for a while now by that point, and that junglefever is oen of the game's top posters, and yet he has been posting exclusively fluff as of that point. This is crucial to a player's ability to coast, which we've seen jungle do often as antitown roles. Gonna go halfway on this and give him an scumpoint. There's been plenty to discuss, and jungle's an observant guy.

Don't realy know what you want from me here. At this point in the game, nothing had happened other than the fact people were arguing over the fact that marshy is 'too good' as Kev put it.

And, hey, look who posts at P115 for the first time in a while? Jungle. He's fluffier than a Serta mattress, at this point. scumpoint

Point taken I guess. Even up to that point, there wasn't much to say.

P138: jungle posts for the first time in a little while, once again, and only to respond to Tuna's question. So he coasted on fluff for a while, then went V/LA, then didn't un-V/LA until directly questioned. I don't like it. I don't like it one bit. scumpoint

I went V/LA for one day 10/31, check post 120. Post 138 was made on 11/1. I came back and Tuna had posed a question for me, I don't see what's scummy about this.

P169: Jungle's post is so vague I don't even know what his point was. Was that calling him out, supporting him, or just questioning for elaboration? Jungle is coasting this game hard.

I'm pretty sure everyone else picked up on it. Cacti basically made a stupid case against Rockin to try and get discussion going, and is admitting that he only did it to start discussion. Personally, it looks to me like he's trying to be a leader and force conversation somewhere. It's a null tell for me right now, but something for me to keep in the back of my mind. Usually, as it has turned out in SWF mafia games, those who ask questions and act as leaders tend to keep votes off themselves.

 

[Mediocre]

A Deadline Has Been Set:
11:59 PM EST November 12



As of post 221

7/12 votes to lynch

The Current Votecount:

Junglefever: 4 (Marshy, KevinM, Macman, Cacti)
cacti: 2 (Junglefever, Evil Eye)
BunBun: 2 (Matunas, Omni)
Macman: 2 (BunBun, mentosman8)
mentosman8: 1 (Gheb_01)


Search Terms For Maximum Searchability:
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Activity

Nov 7
Matunas
Gheb_01
Omni
Rockin
Cacti
Junglefever

Nov 6
Marshy
Macman
mentosman8
Evil Eye

Nov 5
BunBun
KevinM

Nov 4

INACTIVE

 

[Rockin]

Hmm. Interesting. I shall form up a post pretty soon.

Before I could construct a decent post, I had to do other stuff in the house, and then I was sent off to work (and I'm just coming in 30 minutes later). I'll have a post by tomorrow. Don't kill me! ><;;

 

[KevinM]

So why isn't scumfever dead for coasting yet?

Heck the only time I've seen him post something of substance is to defend himself so far.

 

[Cacti]

Indeed. I don't see how EE can call me out on posting only when people call me out, when scumfever has seemingly done the same thing.

 

[BunBun]

From the beginning he has had to be reminded to answer questions and state his opinion. Posts 145, 146, 154, and 166 are the major points that bother me.

When he votes Cacti his reasoning is to move quickly into N1 directly after stating he'd rather hold his vote. This makes no sense. In four minutes his stance changed completely, and for poor reasoning at that. All the while he has been focused on Macman with no stated case against him. Then comes post 154 saying he thinks people need to remember we can no-lynch. Not only is this a bad idea it goes against his vote on Cacti. The entire "lynch people quickly to get information" line just doesn't make sense. How will this garner any information compared to waiting? This is either poor logic or an attempt to get people to hurry up and vote Cacti.

I'm getting either scummy vibes or very new vibes from BunBun at this point. Right now I'm leaning toward scummy.

First off, I still don't see what's so bad about a no lynch. Someone care to explain?

Past that, 146 was made because after I posted 145, I went and reread the last few posts, and decided that me not voting basically made my 145 post completely worthless. It was my opinion, but really did nothing to make discussion move along. So, I put a vote on Cacti, which I said I was fine with in 145. I didn't realize it was such a big deal to put someone 'l-2'. There's no 'poor reasoning' in realizing that your post would be meaningless to the discussion and making a different one to change that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but putting a lynch vote on someone is always a way to get information, so I don't see your point there.

As for not answering your question, are you kidding? "What made you want to play SWFMafia?" You want me to post "It looked fun"? I wasn't going to make a post like that, sorry.

As for scummy vs new, it's my second game on SWF, yes, but I don't really see anyway you can pull 'new vibes' from my actions. Scummy, I can see, because apparently you've got a completely different opinion on how people play the game than I do.

 

[Omni]

so now that votes and accusations have forced you to respond again would u like to contribute

your case against macman was pretty weak and there's been no supporters. do u still find him most suspicious

 

[KevinM]

Unvote
Vote BunBun

 

[BunBun]

so now that votes and accusations have forced you to respond again would u like to contribute

your case against macman was pretty weak and there's been no supporters. do u still find him most suspicious

I do. Since I brought it up, he's done very little to change my opinion. Most of his replies have been extremely short, some with the promise of 'more later', but he hasn't really done anything other than coast and agree/disagree with other people. His 'joke' about the hammering comment felt pretty scummy also.

Gheb says that's just the way he plays, but since I haven't seen him play before, I don't know for myself.

So yeah, I'm going to leave my vote on him unless someone else jumps in scumminess or it becomes apparent that absolutely no one will agree with me. I feel that I am just bad at explaining my suspicions.

Macman, I apologize if this is just how you play, but c'mon, be more involved in your posts!



Also KevinM, sup? Same reasons as everyone else, even after reading my comments?

 

[KevinM]

To an extent.

More so if I want a stronger D2 team the optimal lynch would be you as well as the fact that you've built up a fair amount of connections with the other people in this game meaning I'd get a really good read of the other people who started your case. Also a lot of your posts so far have been rather lackluster, and I keep having to ask myself the question, scum or new player. Which is all fine and dandy but as the game gets closer to the end I'm more inclined to think scum which could result in a crucial mislynch later.

For now i'd rather just go with the inclination that you're scum because of the blatant question dodging and the fact that a lot of your posts seem really non-committal which are optimal posts for scum to make as it's more difficult to draw connections from them.

 

[BunBun]

That's solid.

I apologize for the lackluster posts. I'm trying to be active and intelligent about this, but apparently I went wrong somewhere and my posts have no meaning?

Also, other than Matunas' question, what did I dodge, exactly?

 

[#HBC | Mac]

eh, dunno about bunbun. I don't think he's scummy for continuing to have suspicions of me, especially now that he's explained the reasoning behind it.

Bunbun, Mentosman, Omni, and Tuna: what are your thoughts on Jungle?

and yea I know I said more later, but I haven't really felt like going deep into looking at this game. I will get to it eventually.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fair enough, Omni. I still don't see how this changes the fact that I'm always the first player to complain about inactivity, something that apparently earns me a scumpoint.

 

[BunBun]

About Jungle....he hasn't done like...anything. The only time he posts anymore is to defend himself, and even that is fairly weak. I think it's a huge 'i want to scoot under the radar' with a little bit of 'IRL busy' in there, which could either be innocent good guy trying not to draw attention or bad guy trying to not draw attention.

Either way, extremely not helpful as far as discussions go.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Isn't that what you're doing?

 

[Mediocre]

A Deadline Has Been Set:
11:59 PM EST November 12

mentosman 8 has been prodded.



As of post 235

7/12 votes to lynch

The Current Votecount:

Junglefever: 3 (Marshy, Macman, Cacti)
BunBun: 3 (Matunas, Omni, KevinM)
cacti: 2 (Junglefever, Evil Eye)
Macman: 2 (BunBun, mentosman8)
mentosman8: 1 (Gheb_01)


Search Terms For Maximum Searchability:
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Activity

Nov 8
Rockin
KevinM
Cacti
BunBun
Omni
Macman
Gheb_01
Junglefever

Nov 7
Matunas

Nov 6
Marshy
mentosman8
Evil Eye

Nov 5

INACTIVE

 

[mentosman8]

Mac, I'll respond to your question soon as I get off work, expect my thoughts then

 

[#HBC | marshy]

please prod ee

i'm okay with scumbagfever dying. i need to reread but i want ee's response to the fallout from his big post

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Isn't that what you're doing?

...is this the best defense you can come up with?

 

[DtJ Jungle]

No, my better defense for the masses was in EE's post. But BunBun was trying to call me out on something he's been doing as well.