MK destroy's G&W. Let me teach you.

[A2ZOMG]

Hylian, G&W vs MK is not nearly as bad as you're making it. I just talked to teh_spammerer about this one, and here is some stuff he brought up about your points.

Firstoff you don't need to approach MK since he doesn't have anything that actually forces you to do that.

G&W can camp against walk away F-smash with Chef. It's safe on the first volley of sausages. Besides, spam told me lost a match trying to challenge DDD's back air with F-smash when DDD was above him. <<

Explain how MK chases G&W offstage when he clearly can't hit G&W out of his Up-B. Then try to explain how MK forces G&W to recover from really low. It just doesn't happen that way.

As for the Tornado, it doesn't do **** to G&W if he knows how to DI. He's superlightweight, so if he SDIs up, he should only be taking about 2% then D-airing MK.

That's a few of the things he said in response.

 

[Kyari]

G&W is going to want to recover from as high as he can, using slow falled dairs to hit MK if he tries to approach (fast ones are good too if you're really high). Not sure why he has to come from below or how MK is going to get above him if he doesn't try to come from below.

 

[Hylian]

Hylian, G&W vs MK is not nearly as bad as you're making it. I just talked to teh_spammerer about this one, and here is some stuff he brought up about your points.

Right, because talking to one good player definitly changes the entire match-up.

Firstoff you don't need to approach MK since he doesn't have anything that actually forces you to do that.

G&W can camp against walk away F-smash with Chef. It's safe on the first volley of sausages. Besides, spam told me lost a match trying to challenge DDD's back air with F-smash when DDD was above him. <<

You cannot use Chef to keep MK away from you. It has a blind spot that MK can easily hit with Ftilt,Dtilt,nado, or several other things.

And the fact that he used Fsmash against DDD and got killed because of it has nothing to do with this?

Explain how MK chases G&W offstage when he clearly can't hit G&W out of his Up-B.

Ask Dojo, Lee, or M2K. They can all and HAVE gimped me. Generally they just follow me out and nair if I try to recover from anywhere but below. In practice it's pretty practicle to force GW to recover from below.

Then try to explain how MK forces G&W to recover from really low. It just doesn't happen that way.

Say's who? I'm pretty sure every single time I play dojo he is able to force me to recover from below.

As for the Tornado, it doesn't do **** to G&W if he knows how to DI. He's superlightweight, so if he SDIs up, he should only be taking about 2% then D-airing MK.

I don't see your point? Why would MK even use Nado against GW except to counter moves? Never nado unless you are punishing something. Also, if MK does a rising nado then you have to DI up and away to get out, and you cannot dair right away.


I'm sorry, but this just falls under the case of MK's that don't play correctly vs GW. Like I said, I have an easy time with most MK players, but the ones who beat me all do very specific things to beat me and they are quite effective.

 

[Kyari]

Hylian: Since it's happened to you, I really do want to know what it is that MK does to make you recover from below. Does dair not go through MK's nair? I haven't seen videos of your matches or any other really really good MK's vs a G&W to illustrate some of the things you've been saying, which is one reason I think a lot of MK's don't fight G&W effectively.

 

[Buuman]

Think of it logically. If you want to force someone to recover from below, you want to block the high path.

Meta Knight can jump off the stage and aline at a 45 degree angle with GW and float down to him, try that

and see how many GWs up B when u approach an edgeguard like that. I do it to Omegablackmage most of

the time. Fall down and get ready to Up B, or Nair him. and he falls below and recovers from the bottom

sorry but that's the best way I can explain it.


On a side note, quick question: I've noticed lately some members of smashboards don't have avatars anymore, I decided to change mine..and every time I come on I have to put my avatar back on. For whatever reason it's not saving. Does anyone know why? o_O

 

[Kyari]

I've noticed the avatar thing too, dunno why it's like that...

But as far as MK edgeguarding GW is concerned, the height comparative to G&W to which you can jump depends on GW's height from being hit out of the stage.

And why would the character fall to the bottom when they think you're going to up B? G&W's dair goes through this.

 

[Buuman]

GWs dair does go through this. Most experienced players know the position of when MOST MKs will Up B, thats why I make it look like I'm going to up B and then GW dairs, I dodge (the dair forces them to drop) and take the edgeguard from there. It's hard to explain but u have to literally trick them into moving where u want them too move. Ultimately it's hard to edgeguard GW when he's up high, but much easier to edgeguard him if he recovers from below because u can go into an edgehog and that puts the GW in an awkward situation.

 

[Kyari]

You know the G&W can manipulate his dair to fall quickly or very slowly, correct? He uses this tool so that he rarely needs to recover from all that low, or to sike the MK out with a slow one, then an up B onto the stage again, and then another dair onto the stage.

 

[Buuman]

yes I know he can change the speed at which he falls at. When he Dairs, if the GW holds down after he Dairs it actually slows the speed ironically. If he just dairs, it falls at its steady, normal, fast pace. It's hard to describe exactly how to edgeguard GWs. I just know by instinct from playing blackmage so much.

 

[Staco]

whats with just running into the mk and dash attack? xD

whats with facking bairs?
do a air doge, instad of bair?
and spacing this air dodge correct

 

[Plum]

G&W can camp against walk away F-smash with Chef. It's safe on the first volley of sausages.

Chef is not a move you want to rely on, especially against someone as fast as MK. Against a big character who doesn't have a projectile, DK for example, chef can be very helpful for stopping an approach if that is all you can do. But every piece of food flies at a random arc making in unreliable. There is a chance that one of them is going to hit, but at the same time there is a chance that they all fly right over MK and leave you open during the ending animation.

 

[Neb]

Chef is not a move you want to rely on, especially against someone as fast as MK. Against a big character who doesn't have a projectile, DK for example, chef can be very helpful for stopping an approach if that is all you can do. But every piece of food flies at a random arc making in unreliable. There is a chance that one of them is going to hit, but at the same time there is a chance that they all fly right over MK and leave you open during the ending animation.

Chef can be reliable. You'd be surprised, all the food starts off the same, its only when they leave the GaW do they spread off in different arc's, the fact that they have random trajectory assist in its usefulness. Not one of the foods will fly in the same path twice, in one session- you'll have one go far, another midpoint, one short, and the rest in between.

G&W can influence the first few with a SH/FH, since the food will begin at a highpoint, then the descend. They'll never all fly over MK because the trajectory doesn't reach that far. Besides, if Chef was always the same with its courses, it'd be very punishable.

 

[Hylian]

It is really hard to explain how to make GW fall low with MK...It's a lot easier to see. Also, MK isn't going to force you to recover low every time...GW's recovery is still really good. It is very possibile to do often though.

Also, if you recover higher(more like even to the stage) and you don't have your double jump then you are screwed. Falling right above MK with no double jump isn't fun .

 

[Royale]

all MKs ground game gets shut down by a perfect camping olimar

MK can just dair camp, try to land behind olimar, or tornado

however if he tries to Dair camp olimar can just up B him (or fair or up smash also sometimes work)

olimar blocks tornado really easily compared to most characters, and tornado does very little damage to olimar.

all MK can really do vs a perfect olimar do is hope olimar doesn't camp perfectly, or gimp him... infinite dimensional cape? lol

A smart MK would have to also time his Nados very carefully...All i'd have to do is time my grab to reach the bottum of the funnel and its game over for that nado attempt.

 

[Dojo]

Not if they keep it a bit above the ground buddy.

 

[Royale]

Yup, my friend learned that the hard way. Hence why its better as an approach.

 

[_Phloat_]

A lot of good MK vs GaW debate, I'd like to ask each side:

If you are the MK, what level would you go to for this matchup.

What about if you are on the GaW side?

I was wondering because I often see that MK and GaW share the same CP stages, and neither have terrible levels to play at...

 

[Dojo]

MK and GW don't have bad stages.
In this matchup I just go to stages that I prefer and am more comfortable as a player rather than the character matchup.

 

[Hai Im Fearless]

DanGR. MK doesn't have INSANE advantage over Olimar. You can craft as much theory as you want, but living in wherever the hell you live doesn't give you enough experience as to explain matchup advice to people who live in more populated regions.

 

[Staco]

whats with jumping to mk, airdodge while landing and then dtilt at the mk?

 

[Kyari]

I've already said that stage wise I would avoid Halberd and Yoshi's Island, as the large central platform is very easy for MK to camp under preventing any approach with the dair at all. My favorite stages would either be Lylat, as that's where MK's platform camping is weakest, or FD, where it's non-existent. Smashville and Pokestad aren't bad stages, and BF might be slightly benefited to MK.

Oh and Delfino is weird, I don't know who to give the advantage to there, probably the person most familiar with it for their character or something. Also Castle Siege seems neutral.

 

[8AngeL8]

A lot of good MK vs GaW debate, I'd like to ask each side:

If you are the MK, what level would you go to for this matchup.

What about if you are on the GaW side?

I was wondering because I often see that MK and GaW share the same CP stages, and neither have terrible levels to play at...

Not an MK main by any means, but I play him just to be able to counter-pick at tourneys. Still, I'd put it pretty heavily in MK's favor. 70/30 seems a bit much so maybe 65/35. After using these techniques mentioned at the beginning of the topic, I've only lost to the GW's I play with twice, IIRC. I also haven't lost to any in tourney play (Course I have yet to play Hylian's GW, so who knows, lol).

 

[_Phloat_]

I've already said that stage wise I would avoid Halberd and Yoshi's Island, as the large central platform is very easy for MK to camp under preventing any approach with the dair at all. My favorite stages would either be Lylat, as that's where MK's platform camping is weakest, or FD, where it's non-existent. Smashville and Pokestad aren't bad stages, and BF might be slightly benefited to MK.

Oh and Delfino is weird, I don't know who to give the advantage to there, probably the person most familiar with it for their character or something. Also Castle Siege seems neutral.

It may just be me, but I feel that Lylat Cruise has a high ceiling and short sides. This benefits MK more, at least the way I play with u-smashes. (Kinda like Hylian with the smashes, and NOJ with the turtle)

FD is my favorite too =]. If I catch the MK's tornado/recovery right, the u-air stall can lead to a free smash!

 

[Kyari]

You might be right about the high ceiling thing, but I still think the stage itself lends more to G&W than MK in this matchup. Also, someone (I think it was omegablackmage) said that G&W's dash attack could hit characters below the stage, and that if it hit MK, say he's ledge camping or whatever, that it would stage spike him almost every time. Plus you get REALLY good ledge nair abuse underneath the stage, and I think your u-air even hits if you time the mid-air jump right.

I dunno, I would still rather play on FD too obviously, but I think this stage is another good choice, at least compared to the others. You know FD is going to be struck in game 1, and you definitely don't want Yoshi's or Halberd, so if you want a stage with platforms and you don't want BF, you should pick Lylat.

 

[OverLade]

MK vs. GaW I think Battlefield is the best stage. You can play defensively, camp under the platforms and generally limit GaW's annoying airgame by staying under the ground.

And it's small, so Fsmashes will kill at nice low percents when charged. GaW is most likely to kill you off of the top of the screen, so a wide stage doesn't give him any real disadvantages. That's why BF is better for you.

 

[Mew2King]

It may just be me, but I feel that Lylat Cruise has a high ceiling and short sides.

it is just you; every neutral has the exact same ceiling height (the middle of YS is barely higher by like 1 or 2%, and same for the left/right sides of lylat on average; barely difference though) and the sides are all close but not quite the same

 

[Buuman]

You might be right about the high ceiling thing, but I still think the stage itself lends more to G&W than MK in this matchup. Also, someone (I think it was omegablackmage) said that G&W's dash attack could hit characters below the stage, and that if it hit MK, say he's ledge camping or whatever, that it would stage spike him almost every time. Plus you get REALLY good ledge nair abuse underneath the stage, and I think your u-air even hits if you time the mid-air jump right.

I dunno, I would still rather play on FD too obviously, but I think this stage is another good choice, at least compared to the others. You know FD is going to be struck in game 1, and you definitely don't want Yoshi's or Halberd, so if you want a stage with platforms and you don't want BF, you should pick Lylat.

Surprisingly if you try to recover with the drill right to the ledge and GW dash attacks, he stage spikes u right out of it. That's why you want to drill a foot below the edge and then use the pop up to sweet spot. Blackmage has spiked me too many times with that >,>

 

[Staco]

I think the best stage for mk against gaw will be a stage without platforms
because then he can perform his up b against the bair without problems

but dont know, because you can fall through the platforms, after the up b

I would choose final destination

for gaw I would choose maybe corneria?
playing as gay as possible? xD

 

[Mew2King]

Ask Dojo, Lee, or M2K. They can all and HAVE gimped me. Generally they just follow me out and nair if I try to recover from anywhere but below. In practice it's pretty practicle to force GW to recover from below.




I don't see your point? Why would MK even use Nado against GW except to counter moves? Never nado unless you are punishing something. Also, if MK does a rising nado then you have to DI up and away to get out, and you cannot dair right away.


I'm sorry, but this just falls under the case of MK's that don't play correctly vs GW. Like I said, I have an easy time with most MK players, but the ones who beat me all do very specific things to beat me and they are quite effective.

Hylian, MK cannot chase GW off the stage at all, the only way I edge guard is to do get up attack from the ledge and hope you don't stall down there. I can't even do a ledge hop dair without risk getting stagespiked by your up B. Your up B not only makes you INVINCIBLE on frame 5, it lasts for many frames after that, meaning you are basically safe to grab the ledge unless I do get up attack, and if you DI that upwards you can just up B again and be easily going to the middle of the stage where you can dair or air dodge at any time. MK dares not try to up B GW, it is not worth it at all.

If you go low, you are safe, as long as you know how to DI. I was never even able to ledge hop dair you because you space it.

GW does not do nearly as bad vs MK as you say. The matchup is 60:40 in MKs favor, although it's the opposite in teams.

MK also does not force you to approach him unless he has a lead, but then again if you have a lead you have the same advantage, and GW's camping is extremely good as well.

If GW gets MK above him it's really hard to get down if they play their cards right.

MK can't even up B GW safely because of the key (key does 13 as well as kills, up B only does 8 damage and if you DI it it's pretty pointless), so he has to kill you in pure %.

If you guess correctly if I do steady tornado or a rising one and you get out, I am screwed.

You can also approach with Short hop nair to footstool + dair, it's really fun to do.

 

[Hylian]

M2K do you even read my posts? Honestly...

I said I think the match-up is 60-40 and then you say: "The match-up isn't anywhere as bad as you make it seem it's actually 60-40"

What?

Also, You DID force me to recover low and dojo does Dair me out of my up-B. And when you force me to recover low you ledge hop a nair usually, not get-up attack. You even specifically showed me how to do it to GW.

 

[Mew2King]

1) 60-40 is not MK destroying GW it's winning
2) how does dojo dair you out of a move where you ARE INVINCIBLE FRAMES 5 AND ONWARD FOR A WHILE.
3) what? ledge hop nair doesn't work unless I edge hog at the last second, let you pass through my invincible body, then jump from the ledge and nair you back off, which is completely different and easily avoided by simple guessing.

 

[choknater]

my invincible body

****ing amazing.

 

[Dojo]

1) 60-40 is not MK destroying GW it's winning
2) how does dojo dair you out of a move where you ARE INVINCIBLE FRAMES 5 AND ONWARD FOR A WHILE.
3) what? ledge hop nair doesn't work unless I edge hog at the last second, let you pass through my invincible body, then jump from the ledge and nair you back off, which is completely different and easily avoided by simple guessing.

1. It's still more than most people consider it. Some of these guys think it's even.

2. I'm sexy. I can do that.

3. Wait at the edge. Hug it before he UpB's. He lands on the edge. Ledge hop Nair. You can exchange that with a dsmash if you fast fall your ledgehop.

 

[Mew2King]

2 is a horrible reason lol, and as for 3 that's what i just said, you edge hog, let them pass through your invincible body, and then nair them back off in landing lag. What is this about a down smash lol, not necessary.

did you know, Snake can edge hog a lot of characters and then Dair them for 29 damage. If you don't feel like risking that you can just plant a grenade at the edge, then edge hog. Cort showed me this - it's a guaranteed way to hit DK recovering.

 

[Dojo]

2's an amazing reason. You're just jealous.
And if your nair is staled, you can exchange it for a dsmash if you're going for a kill.

Nobody cares about snake he's not sexy.

 

[rofa]

i would just like to point out another obvious way around gw's bair. although this is situational depending on position: if you tornado into him as he does his bair you will eat it up and it will be hard for him to get out of it quickly if you catch him in the top half of the tornado.

also, utilt out of shield works wonders for a gw that likes to dair too much. one basic mind game against a dairing gw is to let him hit your shield a couple times with the dair and then once he is around 100% just utilt his dair and he dead. i kill NOJ at least once every time we play with this, lol.

 

[Hylian]

1) 60-40 is not MK destroying GW it's winning
2) how does dojo dair you out of a move where you ARE INVINCIBLE FRAMES 5 AND ONWARD FOR A WHILE.
3) what? ledge hop nair doesn't work unless I edge hog at the last second, let you pass through my invincible body, then jump from the ledge and nair you back off, which is completely different and easily avoided by simple guessing.

1.Right, and the topic title is irrelevent after you read my first post...

2. What? GW isn't invinvible for very long. Dojo has dropped off the ledge and daired me several times out of my up-B. It just takes good timing.

3. OK THERE THANK YOU? What the heck M2K?!?!? This is what you just said: "Ledge hop nair doesn't work but here is how you do it." You just explained exactly what I said...

 

[8AngeL8]

Dojo's number 2 is possibly his most true answer. I was having trouble restraining myself at HOBO.

 

[Dojo]

Dojo's number 2 is possibly his most true answer. I was having trouble restraining myself at HOBO.

Some tend to get that away. It's natural... no worries.

 

[8AngeL8]

Your fingers flew across the controller so fast. Sparks the imagination