Mission Complete! A guide on Fox in brawl+ UPDATED 10/20/09

[shanus]

Alright guys, I believe I have made an amazing change for Fox since most people complain about how monotonous his playstyle is with little variety in combos

-Dair: 2 dmg from 3dmg per hit, KBG to 0 from 40, BKB to 32 from 33 (disables upsmash as a true combo, disables utilt if not hitting an opponent behind you, preserves grab and shine and backwards utilt combos)
-Shine is now able to be jump cancelled while used on the ground, BKB dropped to 40 from 60, Angle to 0 from 10, comes out on frame 1 (shine JC upsmash and shine JC fair are true combos, dair on certain chars)

Opinions?

Adds more skill and forces more variety with Fox.

 

[money113]

Alright guys, I believe I have made an amazing change for Fox since most people complain about how monotonous his playstyle is with little variety in combos

-Dair: 2 dmg from 3dmg per hit, KBG to 0 from 40, BKB to 32 from 33 (disables upsmash as a true combo, disables utilt if not hitting an opponent behind you, preserves grab and shine and backwards utilt combos)
-Shine is now able to be jump cancelled while used on the ground, BKB dropped to 40 from 60, Angle to 0 from 10, comes out on frame 1 (shine JC upsmash and shine JC fair are true combos, dair on certain chars)

Opinions?

Adds more skill and forces more variety with Fox.

I think this is a bad idea, a very bad idea. maybe lowering damage of dair, but if you take away Fox's dair-> Usmash combo, he will no longer be Fox. That's his main and best killing combo.

 

[shanus]

I think this is a bad idea, a very bad idea. maybe lowering damage of dair, but if you take away Fox's dair-> Usmash combo, he will no longer be Fox. That's his main and best killing combo.

for those who don't read:


dair to shine is a combo

shine to JC upsmash is a true combo


...

 

[Kuga]

Well,i still think is a bad idea,this looks so much like Fox Melee.(Shine 1 Frame,Jump Cancel.)
For who want to test this,fine,but this came here because Marth mains bright the ideia of changing de play style.I hope this ideia die soon.
Most of the Fox mains disagree about these changes.I liked the Shine change,but thats will change his playsatyle too much.

Well.....thats my Opinion.

 

[_Yes!_]

Alright guys, I believe I have made an amazing change for Fox since most people complain about how monotonous his playstyle is with little variety in combos

-Dair: 2 dmg from 3dmg per hit, KBG to 0 from 40, BKB to 32 from 33 (disables upsmash as a true combo, disables utilt if not hitting an opponent behind you, preserves grab and shine and backwards utilt combos)
-Shine is now able to be jump cancelled while used on the ground, BKB dropped to 40 from 60, Angle to 0 from 10, comes out on frame 1 (shine JC upsmash and shine JC fair are true combos, dair on certain chars)

Opinions?

Adds more skill and forces more variety with Fox.

So you want to add depth by nerfing him? No thanks. Shine was godly in melee because it had priority over everything else (except mewtwo's side b) and it came out on frame one. Brawl Fox's shine priority is balls. Why would we need to jump cancel a move that isn't that great in exchange for the loss of an upsmash/uptilt combo?

Leave Fox alone shanus he's fine as he is now. God this game's never gonna be finished...

 

[leafgreen386]

So you want to add depth by nerfing him? No thanks. Shine was godly in melee because it had priority over everything else (except mewtwo's side b) and it came out on frame one. Brawl Fox's shine priority is balls. Why would we need to jump cancel a move that isn't that great in exchange for the loss of an upsmash/uptilt combo?

Leave Fox alone shanus he's fine as he is now. God this game's never gonna be finished...

The shine does 5 damage in melee. The shine does 5 damage in brawl. The shine is invincible the frame it hits in melee. The shine is invincible the frame it hits in brawl.

I'm not seeing where you're getting this priority thing from. The only difference in "priority" between the melee shine and the brawl shine is that the brawl shine comes out two frames later, so it's less likely to come out before your opponent's attack (but it's still invincible up through the hit).

You need to give this kind of thing a try first before you go blowing your mouth off.

 

[_Yes!_]

...I can't argue with metagross, but I honestly think the change isn't needed. Fox is fine the way he is.

 

[timothyung]

Dair to backwards utilt is still a combo. And you can dair>shine>JC usmash for even more damage. And shine will come out on frame one. It actually adds an option to Fox, and if you use his dair correctly, you lose nothing. You actually only loss the dair>utilt forward hit combo, and get a one frame and JC-able shine. It should be a wonderful change, test it

 

[shanus]

People who tested it in the IRC last night (v2 of it), all seemed to love it. Its technical, its fast, its more options, and Fox comes out at an equal level to before. Its pretty awesome :D

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I know people who would switch mains to Fox for a JC shine. >_>

Hell, I might pick up Fox with a JC shine. But that's just me, I suppose.

 

[grim mouser]

I'd do it. And more tech skill is cool.

If this is shot down, I'd still like the test build to play around with.

 

[5ive]

I know people who would switch mains to Fox for a JC shine. >_>

Hell, I might pick up Fox with a JC shine. But that's just me, I suppose.

I'd pick up Fox in a heartbeat.

 

[shanus]

This is version 2 of it, it needs more fine tuning:

http://shanemulliganphotography.blogsite.org:6111/~shane/foxtest/

-Dair: 2 dmg from 3dmg per hit, KBG to 0 from 40, BKB to 32 from 33 (disables upsmash as a true combo, disables utilt if not hitting an opponent behind you, preserves grab and shine and backwards utilt combos)
-Shine is now able to be jump cancelled while used on the ground, BKB dropped to 46 from 60, KBG to 0 from 30, Angle to 1 from 10, comes out on frame 1 (shine JC upsmash and shine JC fair are true combos, dair on certain chars)

 

[5ive]

To be honest, I'm a little disappointed. I'd rather see a shine able to jump cancel while in the air AND on the ground in order for a trade off for a nerfed dair.

Right now it's just not worth losing some of the important attributes of the dair. JC shine, though with more options, still isn't near as useful as it was in Melee.

In short, I'd love to see a version where you can JC in the air. If it stays like this, and you can only JC on the ground... it's not worth the nerfs at all.

It's still cool though.

 

[shanus]

Well, as i mentioned before, this is meant to be a demonstration of the potential.

With Plan Zero, I can build a true grounded and aerial JC shine, but this is to demonstrate the principle.

And the dair isn't truly nerfed, since it links into grab or shine, you can dair shine JC upsmash and still kill. However, you need to THINK if you should attempt the utilt or JC shine into an uair or fair instead.

Its pretty awesome.

 

[grim mouser]

What implications does the angle change from 10 to 1 have?

Is it simply a higher angle (almost horizontal?), or am I misunderstanding Brawl's angles? Do Brawl's angles begin from the positive X axis and move clockwise?

 

[leafgreen386]

What implications does the angle change from 10 to 1 have?

Is it simply a higher angle (almost horizontal?), or am I misunderstanding Brawl's angles? Do Brawl's angles begin from the positive X axis and move clockwise?

Picture a unit circle where the character is facing toward 0.

The 1 degree angle is to remove tripping from the move (hopefully). Fox's melee shine had a 0 degree angle, but when applied to brawl+, it resulted in the shine sometimes tripping a foe.

 

[grim mouser]

Aerial shine's angle differs from grounded shine? You said Melee shine had a 0 degree angle... but it had an aerial semi-spike. I assume the grounded angle was 0, while the aerial angle was (-30 or something)?

Edit:

Feedback on the Fox test build:

JC shine is cool, even if I found myself repeatedly forgetting that it didn't work in the air. xD It adds a good deal of tech skill to Fox... Depending on your style of executing the JC shine, there are various things that make it difficult.

I especially had to work at making Fox JC into a SH instead of a FH, and also had quite a time getting d-air -> JC shine -> u-smash off. For pretty much the first time ever, hitlag made me change my input timings. JC shine -> u-smash was a lot harder to pull off when used on an enemy instead of just practiced.

In short- very cool, though IDK if Fox mains would like the d-air nerf/difficulty increase in exchange for a still-limited JC shine.

Now for the bad parts. The reduced KB makes the shine spike virtually useless. I shined a Falcon 3-4 times off the stage, and said Falcon still recovered very easily.

The other downsides I found, probably due to the reduced KB/changed angle, (?) are possible infinites.

D-air -> JC shine -> d-air ... JC shine -> u-smash seems to be a KO combo across a stage or on a wall. I haven't tested this extensively, though.

Also, it seems that shine can now infinite against a wall again. With the lower KB, characters aren't knocked off the wall/forced to tech. Instead, you can shine -> shine ... JC shine -> u-smash for the KO.

Suggested fix- reinstate shine KBG, or, to retain guaranteed combos, raise BKB. This might also fix the shine spike.

 

[shanus]

I havent gotten to test much during the weekend, I need to fine tune the knockback values and timing window more.

The point of this isn't to put in a limited shine now. The point of this is to test out the properties of the buffed grounded shine to find the proper values for after Plan Zero

 

[grim mouser]

Ah. In that case, it's going great. Timing is tight and the KB is WIP, but it's cool even as is. PSA should make it amazing. =D

Couldn't you jump out of shine at any time in Melee? Or is my memory rusting over badly?

 

[shanus]

Ah. In that case, it's going great. Timing is tight and the KB is WIP, but it's cool even as is. PSA should make it amazing. =D

Couldn't you jump out of shine at any time in Melee? Or is my memory rusting over badly?

You could, which I also am planning on fixing. The issue is I need to learn the frame values for the 11B state and release state so i can rebalance them to match the exact former shine window length.

 

[grim mouser]

No idea what 11B is (shine "on" state?), but I assume release is in reference to... releasing B?

 

[leafgreen386]

Ah. In that case, it's going great. Timing is tight and the KB is WIP, but it's cool even as is. PSA should make it amazing. =D

Couldn't you jump out of shine at any time in Melee? Or is my memory rusting over badly?

I believe you could jc shine in melee starting frame 4. So there was the hit frame (with invincibility), two frames of nothing, and as soon as the reflecting animation began, you were able to JC.

The current brawl+ shine has more time before it goes into the reflecting animation, though, so the frames don't match up to melee exactly (which is why when I was testing it I was actually missing the jc occasionally because I was doing it too early on 0 buffer). I believe the window for JCing in brawl+ closes earlier than it did in melee, as well.

 

[grim mouser]

I think I was trying to JC early sometimes, too. Unless it was just my 2-frame buffer screwing me over.

 

[shanus]

Alright, so Yeroc helped me out.

I have a new version which lets it work like this:

hitbox 2, first jc 3, last jc 15, total duration 22

 

[grim mouser]

What were the previous settings?

 

[shanus]

previous window was 6 frames starting at frame 3

 

[Kuga]

Question: You guys are thinking to put this on the new Official Codeset?
I know this whole thing is a test,but if we have all the codes working,this will be add?
Please,NO.

 

[grim mouser]

I think it's going to be on hold until PSA is released, feedback is given, etc.

 

[ph00tbag]

So any advice on getting inside Sheik? If I can get inside her defenses, I can mop the floor with her, but I have a lot of difficulty getting past her ftilt. It's got a huge hitbox (goes straight through nair), and it's really fast, so punishing it requires timing that I really don't have. Are there any other options?

 

[grim mouser]

You might try baiting with lasers, drawing an f-tilt, and punishing when they miss, if possible. Or shieldgrabs?

 

[Kuga]

After the nerfs on his Utilt/Dair,he will lose his Brawl best move(his Utilt is his best move,too)to gain his Melee best move,a lot of Fox mains like the Brawl Fox,if this will be add,some Fox mains will quit,but some will back.

His Dair now is more punishable with 2%(less shieldstun)
His Utilt from 10/9% to 7%

You guys said this add more depth/skill to use,so,that suppose to be a trade off?
Fox shine was godly with WD and has a set KB.

Like i said,nerfing a character,who is top5 material,but get screwed by combos/gimps
Now Marth have a project to change his plastyle,ASKED FOR COMMUNITY.
But here,one guys,who is isn't a legit Fox Main(he was Fox main in Melee)want his JC Shine,nerfing his Brawl ''JC Shine''

Nobody was complaim about Fox,he will be more Melee Fox than Brawl Fox,witch is silly.

You guys can test these changes,but i think to test this JUST ON BETA CODESET,not on the officials.(So,dont put these changes on the next Official set)

 

[leafgreen386]

After the nerfs on his Utilt/Dair,he will lose his Brawl best move(his Utilt is his best move,too)to gain his Melee best move,a lot of Fox mains like the Brawl Fox,if this will be add,some Fox mains will quit,but some will back.

His Dair now is more punishable with 2%(less shieldstun)
His Utilt from 10/9% to 7%

You guys said this add more depth/skill to use,so,that suppose to be a trade off?
Fox shine was godly with WD and has a set KB.

Like i said,nerfing a character,who is top5 material,but get screwed by combos/gimps
Now Marth have a project to change his plastyle,ASKED FOR COMMUNITY.
But here,one guys,who is isn't a legit Fox Main(he was Fox main in Melee)want his JC Shine,nerfing his Brawl ''JC Shine''

Nobody was complaim about Fox,he will be more Melee Fox than Brawl Fox,witch is silly.

You guys can test these changes,but i think to test this JUST ON BETA CODESET,not on the officials.(So,dont put these changes on the next Official set)

I just wanted to let you know... I hate you.

Fox isn't losing his utilt anytime soon. He is receiving a nerf to his dair, though, to make him require more skill to play instead of mindless auto-combos.

You talk about JC shine with WD. Guess what? WDing isn't in brawl+.

Even with a jc shine, fox will still not be like his melee self.

And if you think we're going to put any radical changes like this in an official build before putting it in a nightly to get some good quality testing... you're crazy and don't deserve to even be posting on these boards.

In fact, please, kindly

 

[Kuga]

I said his Utilt is his best move too,not nerfed.Where did i said his Utilt was nerfed in this project?
I just said what nerf he got.Lóu.
I said his Shine was godly in Melee because Melee has WD,so,ONLY his Shine,for his Dair nerf,its not a good trade off.
Just that.

 

[PKNintendo]

I just wanted to let you know... I hate you.

Fox isn't losing his utilt anytime soon. He is receiving a nerf to his dair, though, to make him require more skill to play instead of mindless auto-combos.

You talk about JC shine with WD. Guess what? WDing isn't in brawl+.

Even with a jc shine, fox will still not be like his melee self.

And if you think we're going to put any radical changes like this in an official build before putting it in a nightly to get some good quality testing... you're crazy and don't deserve to even be posting on these boards.

In fact, please, kindly

Good lord, could you fit any more ownage in that post?

 

[grim mouser]

The only actual loss is d-air -> forward u-tilt. D-air -> u-smash is still a true combo through JC shine, but it's more difficult.

 

[abcool]

Haha. I haven't posted on these boards in forever. Well, well, looks like you went through with my idea afterall leafgreen. The jc shine from the ground only...who knew it would actually, atleast be tested. Anyway, if you are gonna make fox feel a little better. The ff special and diable lasers add more control to him when he is mobile. I know all of the brawl fox players like fox how he is, but the reason i went back to melee is basically fox felt to Auto combo-ish like shanus stated.

The whole point i am trying to make is, (i don't wanna come making changes to brawl+ because i kinda gave up already) but since you guys are finally willing to test anything and see how it works. Try FF specials and Diable lasers, along with jc shine. If not, well hey atleast i had my say, no lost. Remember Fox had the laser control from N64 time and a way to cancel the shine, so why not have ATLEAST someway to cancel it in brawl+..

 

[grim mouser]

I think it will be tested when the codes are made for Falco, as well.

 

[jalued]

just wondering out of people who have played fox with the JC shine, what are ur opinions on it? is it useful? too good? nice change to his playstyle?

oh and u cant argue that with fox's JC shine he will be like melee fox, as there is no WD AND... fox's brawl+ shine is far far worse than melee fox's shine.

i approve making it harder to dair-> uptilt/upsmash etc :D

 

[5ive]

Shine spike is weaker, so the arguement of it gimping too easily is out of the question.

The shine makes Fox even faster and more appealing to play as (at least for me). It brings endless possibilities in terms of combos. It increases learning curve but for the better. It overall makes Fox a much deeper character. And makes Fox really flashy

I can't see Fox without it. I think me and Shanus can agree that we'd like to see it stay.
<3 JC Shine