Mission Complete! A guide on Fox in brawl+ UPDATED 10/20/09

[leafgreen386]

On match up discussions, we focus on the "now", not the "later".
Get back to me when it's actually fixed (and not "fixing") and put in an official build.

That's nice. Lemme know how useful a discussion about shining wolf in the middle of his upB is in a few weeks.

 

[Sukai]

That's nice. Lemme know how useful a discussion about shining wolf in the middle of his upB is in a few weeks.

If you fix it like you say you're going to, then there won't be a discussion about that.
You aren't God of match up discussions, we'll work with what you give us and when/if the circumstances change, the discussions will change with, not in advance, because there's no telling how long it'll take for you guys to perfect the code.
It's been months ago you said that "we're trying to fix Wolf's up B", so until it's fixed, Wolf's at a loss and it'll always apply to match up until it's fixed, what if it's not fixed during the next bi-weekly tourney, are you gonna tell them, "We're looking into fixing that, so don't bother taking advantage of it"?
I'm not trying to be jerk, I'm telling it like it is.
Fix it (present tense), then there would be nothing to discuss.

 

[_Yes!_]

Everyone ruh lax, since I'm amazing xD. Even if this property is gone, if you know your fox, you can time the shine to **** wolf's upb. That's one of the things I loved doing in melee so it shouldn't be a problem for me Rep fox well everyone :D

 

[Zodac]

down tilt -> down air/neutral air/shine

 

[_Yes!_]

Utilt >>>>>>>>>>> dtilt.

Shine isn't worth using as an attack.

 

[Jon64]

Dtilt has better range in front than Utilt. It does have less range than Ftilt and is slower, but still connects out of a Dair and has the upward knockback for nice follow ups. Thus, it has plenty of use if you Dair someone and they end up far enough in front than Utilt won't hit. It's also generally better to mix up your game instead of Utilting every time.

I find the shine can actually be decent for using out of a dair when your opponent is reading your combos and DI-ing out of them. If I hit my opponent with drillkick-uptilt-nair-nair twice in a match he'll be DI-ing out of that by the third attempt. If I mix it up to drillkick-shine-dash attack, I'll probably have a higher success rate and put them in a disadvantageous position that I could exploit. Had they DI'd out of a combo and teched behind me they could proceed to get revenge.

I wouldn't come close to saying shine-ing and Dtilting are better than Utilt, but as a Dair follow-up, I like to mix it up as much as possible.

 

[_Yes!_]

If you're ever in front of your opponent while you're dairing, then they suck at reading and intercepting you.

If your opponent can read and DI your combos, do dair grab dthrow to whatever.

Dair utilt is all you need.

 

[Jon64]

The tail swipe looks too badass for me to give it up.

 

[Sukai]

Down tilt can edge guard, so if you wanted to mock your friends, you could do that.
You know, instead of-
Down Smash
Shine
Down Air
Edge Hog
And so forth.

 

[_Yes!_]

Down tilt can edge guard, so if you wanted to mock your friends, you could do that.
You know, instead of-
Down Smash
Shine
Down Air
Edge Hog
And so forth.

Sounds like fun but I don't have a wii, so I only play at tournies. I'm usually trying to play my best so I don't sandbag in tournies xD

 

[Sukai]

So.....matchup discussion.
May I suggest Ssssssssssssnnnnn--Meta Knight?

 

[_Yes!_]

Fox ***** either one imo lol. Only thing fox has to worry about with mk is being gimped.

 

[Kuga]

LOL@Usmash on MK.
Even Utilt will kill early.

 

[_Yes!_]

Shff'ing nairs like crazy works on mk. Fox is so much faster than mk now it's not even funny.

 

[Sukai]

We should get some MK+ mains to help discuss.

 

[_Yes!_]

apparently my guide is a failure lol....

Fox avoids getting gimped, and mk cannot keep up with fox. gg

 

[jalued]

btw fox can upthrow to upair combo (on computers with no DI) kill on a few characters including fox,falco,falcon,sheik,link,bowser, mario, marth, DK, basically most of the cast from around 110% onwards (when the hitstun lasts long enough, after these % it becomes increasingly easier to combo upthrow to upair).

SO NO SAYING FOX NEEDS MORE KILL MOVES

 

[_Yes!_]

you made your post pointless after saying "on computers with no DI" lol...

 

[leafgreen386]

btw fox can upthrow to upair combo (on computers with no DI) kill on a few characters including fox,falco,falcon,sheik,link,bowser, mario, marth, DK, basically most of the cast from around 110% onwards (when the hitstun lasts long enough, after these % it becomes increasingly easier to combo upthrow to upair).

SO NO SAYING FOX NEEDS MORE KILL MOVES

"Becomes easier after 110%." Uh... what? If you go too far passed that, they should be going too high for you to actually hit them again before leaving hitstun, though there should be a small window it works in. I didn't care to extensively test to figure out what this window is against most characters, since I figured it'd be too small to matter most of the time when the opponent still has the ability to just SDI out of the uair, and besides... I don't play fox. This window is particularly large against ff'ers, though (fox can uthrow -> uair himself from 65, although it doesn't work on the other ff'ers until a little before 80 iirc).

Yes!: If it works without DI, it means that it should also work with DI if you read properly, only taking up a couple frames to dash and position yourself. As a result of DIing to the side, they don't go as high, so it should end up taking about the same amount of time to reach them.

 

[_Yes!_]

Not enough hitstun in brawl+ for that to work.

 

[jalued]

"Becomes easier after 110%." Uh... what? If you go too far passed that, they should be going too high for you to actually hit them again before leaving hitstun, though there should be a small window it works in. I didn't care to extensively test to figure out what this window is against most characters, since I figured it'd be too small to matter most of the time when the opponent still has the ability to just SDI out of the uair, and besides... I don't play fox. This window is particularly large against ff'ers, though (fox can uthrow -> uair himself from 65, although it doesn't work on the other ff'ers until a little before 80 iirc).

Yes!: If it works without DI, it means that it should also work with DI if you read properly, only taking up a couple frames to dash and position yourself. As a result of DIing to the side, they don't go as high, so it should end up taking about the same amount of time to reach them.

it depends on what character and what DI. for some real fast fallers like fox it'll work even with DI, but for more floaty characters it only works if they just go straight up.

and yeah it does have a limit, about 150% depending on which character, but i feel the KBG is quite low, so there is quite a big range of values for this to work. it does work on falcon at about 150% (just cause hes so heavy, anything less than that wont kill him anyway)

then again, fox's upsmash does kill at 100%+ lol, but still a useful tool. especially in fox dittos

oh and u forget cowtipper, fox is a speed demon through the air, he is just so dam fast lol

does the upthrow chaingrab fox btw?

 

[_Yes!_]

it depends on what character and what DI. for some real fast fallers like fox it'll work even with DI, but for more floaty characters it only works if they just go straight up.

and yeah it does have a limit, about 150% depending on which character, but i feel the KBG is quite low, so there is quite a big range of values for this to work. it does work on falcon at about 150% (just cause hes so heavy, anything less than that wont kill him anyway)

then again, fox's upsmash does kill at 100%+ lol, but still a useful tool. especially in fox dittos

oh and u forget cowtipper, fox is a speed demon through the air, he is just so dam fast lol

does the upthrow chaingrab fox btw?

lol well unless i've missed a change due to the updates since i don't have a wii, i'm pretty sure i know fox pretty well ;D

 

[leafgreen386]

does the upthrow chaingrab fox btw?

No. You can't even usmash or utilt out of uthrow iirc. When even uair just barely works starting at 65%, do you really think you could use it to chainthrow?

 

[_Yes!_]

No. You can't even usmash or utilt out of uthrow iirc. When even uair just barely works starting at 65%, do you really think you could use it to chainthrow?

We should play a game where Fox could chain throw fast fallers with up throw

 

[Sukai]

Fox would be top tier again.

 

[_Yes!_]

He is in the game I'm talking about

 

[jalued]

basically i feel that fox is really good, but not that interesting to play. dair is such a solid and safe move to spam and seems to form the basis of fox's gameplay (as well as nairs) , there isnt really any depth at all available for fox.

i have a few ideas to try and make him more challenging to play (of course would have to nerf other stuff)

1) changing the angle of uptilt from around 100 to either 50-60 or 120-130 so that its harder to follow up with other moves- so that it either can combo into a fair or a bair but make it difficult for it to combo into down or upair.

2) give him back JSC so that he can jump out of shine (wouldnt allow for waveshining etc, but would boost his edge guarding game, mindgames etc). could possibly give him alot more unforeseen options

3) possibly reduce end lag on his upthrow so it can really combo

4) increase the frame window for canceling his side B (atm i feel it isnt responsive enough)

5) give him SHFFL

of course if he got all these changes he would prob be god tier, so would have to give him some nerfs, maybe reduce BKB on bair, upsmash and upair, i dont know. just feel fox deserves to be more interesting than he is atm

 

[metaXzero]

1.) I wouldn't mind too much.
2.) I'd rather Fox not go back to those days where the shine was safe on block. Especially here where due to Fox having more frames to determine what type of jump he's doing, how potentially easy (and safe) it'd be to eat shields with rapid shines >_>
3.) I wouldn't mind a lag reduction as long as it didn't become a guaranteed lead to U-air.
4.) Wouldn't mind
5.) We have SHFF. And landing lag is already reduced.

 

[jalued]

1.) I wouldn't mind too much.
2.) I'd rather Fox not go back to those days where the shine was safe on block. Especially here where due to Fox having more frames to determine what type of jump he's doing, how potentially easy (and safe) it'd be to eat shields with rapid shines >_>
3.) I wouldn't mind a lag reduction as long as it didn't become a guaranteed lead to U-air.
4.) Wouldn't mind
5.) We have SHFF. And landing lag is already reduced.

i meant shorthop fastfall laser

 

[leafgreen386]

meta, I think the whole point of reducing lag on uthrow would be to let it combo into uair, which is already does against ff'ers (uthrow -> uair is legit against himself starting at 65% and against other ff'ers around 80%). Fox's uair isn't even as powerful as it was in melee, and it's still just as SDIable as it always was. A lot of players actually resorted to bairs in melee instead of uair simply due to its unreliability.

Also, the frame advantage granted by jc'ing shines on a shield can be remedied by reducing the damage of shine, which will reduce the shieldstun and shield damage.

I think there's a way to make everything here work with the appropriate nerfs to counterbalance it (except possibly the sideB adjustment, which is more of a technical limitation than anything).

We have actually been talking about what to do with fox in the wbr, toying with a few ideas to let people try out, such as making the dair hitbox smaller and then compensating him in something else.

 

[Sukai]

Down air was always a move that could be easily spammed, even in Melee if l-canceled.
Nerfing his down air isn't entirely necessary in my opinion.
He's not overpowered or anything, he's really balanced as of the recent official changes, he has variety in combos, high offense and mediocre defense to compensate, comboing from up throw isn't necessary, neither is jump cancelling the shine, please stop looking to Melee to consider changes, just play Melee if you want all that.
It's one thing to look for new ways to provide depth, but now it feels like everyone is going backwards.

I tend to wonder when will character re-development will be finalized, instead of constantly being thrown every which way 'just cuz'.

Find a design and stick with it, at this rate Brawl+ will never be finished and will eventually lose any kind of consistency it once had.

 

[jalued]

Down air was always a move that could be easily spammed, even in Melee if l-canceled.
Nerfing his down air isn't entirely necessary in my opinion.
He's not overpowered or anything, he's really balanced as of the recent official changes, he has variety in combos, high offense and mediocre defense to compensate, comboing from up throw isn't necessary, neither is jump cancelling the shine, please stop looking to Melee to consider changes, just play Melee if you want all that.
It's one thing to look for new ways to provide depth, but now it feels like everyone is going backwards.

I tend to wonder when will character re-development will be finalized, instead of constantly being thrown every which way 'just cuz'.

Find a design and stick with it, at this rate Brawl+ will never be finished and will eventually lose any kind of consistency it once had.

but its more than he is just really dull atm, all of his combos are the same and it just doesnt feel like a challenge to win with fox. i think reducing the hitbox size of the dair is a good idea, and as for the JSC. i dont see whats wrong with it... it wouldn't behave the same way as melee as he can only jump out, not waveshine or combo from it easily.

just curious to try it out and see how it affects fox'd playstyle. could also open up alot of other combos people hadn't thought possible before. no harm in trying it and balancing him accordingly

 

[Kuga]

Come on guys,dont do that,its will be a HUGE CHANGE,you guys are thinking to nerf his Dair again?
Because thats not a trade off.Like Falco mains wanted the Shine buff,this was unique,amazing,but dont change his game that much.
He was nerfed because he was a damage machine,now his Utilt does 7%,his Dair all hits does 12%,instead of 24%.
Like knux said about his Up Throw buff,leave this alone,his D throw is already a great Throw.I think thats not a trade for more depth ideia,its a Nerf idea.
JCS and Uthrow combo into Uair will just bright the Brawl+=Melee 2.0 thing,witch sux.
The fact is...if you want more depth to Fox,you will need to trade his best move.And i dont want that,JSC is not that good.
These Melee things destroy B+
For top 5,hes the only one who is screwed by his falling speed,i think you guys need to take easy on these changes.
Nerfing his Brawl Pro,to bright his Melee Pro.....uh
I know its just a idea,but its what i think about these changes.

Sorry if i looks rude.

 

[5ive]

There's nothing wrong with trying. Don't think this is the place to discuss future changes anyways.

Also, space after each comma to make your posts look less ******** ;P

 

[_Yes!_]

okay guys, i'm way too lazy to read walls of text but here's what i think...

fox isn't broken at all. he gets gimped to hell cuz his recovery is balls.

his dair has already been nerfed enough.

jcs would be pretty cool, but his shine priority sucks now so it's not really a good move other than for stalling in the air IMO

reduced ending lag of bair would be nice

jab hitstun would be nice

combo'ing off uthrow would be cool but not necessary

shffl isn't necessary. i play melee for that. i like my easy shdl's.

as far as i'm concerned fox is a finished character. leave him alone so we can finish this **** game.

 

[Sukai]

Yes!
Yes! understands.

 

[Kuga]

There's nothing wrong with trying. Don't think this is the place to discuss future changes anyways.

Also, space after each comma to make your posts look less ******** ;P

How imature,five ;X
Shut up,please,dont try to start a fight.

 

[Mr.-0]

Fight Fight Fight Fight Fight!!!

 

[_Yes!_]

lmao please guys if there's a problem take it to pm's. this thread is specifically designed so i can talk about how amazing i am and how you should all feed my ego, and how we should all meatride fox.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

Yehs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D