Mindgames dont exist: The Truth

[Aesir]

>_> I really think m4f is talking out of his *** now.

Iq has nothing to do with intelligence, M2k has more experience then you. thus hes a more intelligent player.

 

[Brookman]

i'm pretty sure m2k's IQ isn't that much higher than mine

sometimes you do, sometimes not playing mindgames is a mindgame

no two mindgamesplayers are the same, they may look the same but will produce different results amounts of bad playing.

and your example just negated what you meant, you mindgamed your opponented into thinking it was a normal cracker when instead an onion cracker, which means you tricked your opponent into your evil plan, way to go

that was me posting on my friend's accound by accident.

I was just saying m2k is a smarter player, I'm not calling you stupid in terms of a meaningless number.

and my example doesn't negate anything because I'm not actually making a stand for one thing or the other, I was merely expressing an idea (or two?).

 

[FireBomb]

Mindgames are an artificial figment that our brain takes in out of worry or disbelief in, and releases it with unsteady reflexes and loss of focus. If you're on the offensive, mindgames also come into play, as your mind begins to presume that you can win even if they can throw you off here or there. It's the key factor that can come into almost every game, and is the reason we have people who can 4-stock, or people who make great comebacks. Either that, or they're really good (or noobs). I think that mindgames are a definite factor to keep in mind when 2 people of similar skill levels face off.

If we weren't affected by mindgames, we'd be a bunch of computers that suck. Since we ARE affected, we're learning computers instead. It's the circle of strife...

 

[choknater]

people discussing this counter-productive topic are getting mindgames'd into not playing smash

 

[DaShizWiz]

Nafix is good.



I don't know what this thread is about. But by looking at the title, I'll just say Mindgames do exist.

 

[Sensai]

I saw this thread earlier today in it's infancy and decided not to join in because it seemed like a topic that was unwilling to die and be resolved. Now that it's grown up a little and everyone on the boards has posted (hell, Moogle's practically spamming; he posted at least 2 times on the same thread in the same day!), I feel like I need to.

I'm not sure if this thread started as someone making a joke (which I don't think is the case) or if it was simply saying that the word 'mindgames' does not adequately describe the said act (more likely, but still, I don't think that's it).

Now, after evaluating the question, I'll throw in my two-cents.

In some senses of the word, mindgames don't exist. For example, when two people are playing and one hits the other after having done the same thing twice and differing it for the third time, then refers to the act as 'mindgames'...this is incorrect. Something did happen, but it's not anything to do with a psychological approach (unless you intentionally did the same thing X amount of times in a row just so you could change it later).

However, intimidation and 'psyching someone out' are easily recognizeable (though maybe 'mindgame' isn't the best word to describe it). I.E., if I went up against Ken, I would've lost before I even started. Not (only) because he's better then, but because I go into the match scared and willing to lose.

So, the concept of 'mindgames', IMO, exist. Whether the word is necessary/useful is another matter entirely. What would you suggest we call it, anyways? Perhaps we use the word because it's easily used and readily accessible to the general Smash community?

 

[Brookman]

Mindgames in action!!1


The Brookman07: It's me Brookman! You, FROM THE FUTURE!
The Brookman06: hey dazwa
The Brookman07: aww shoot

and thusly I conclude mindgames are FOR REALEAREALEAREAL.

The Brookman06: I'm actually YOU
The Brookman06: from the future
The Brookman06: which is how I knew
The Brookman07: FROM THE PAST
The Brookman07: IN AMERICA

The Brookman06: it was me sending that to me
The Brookman06: cause I've sent it to me before
SamuraiNinja070: My mind just blew up!
SamuraiNinja070: IN THE FUTURE
SamuraiNinja070: TWICE!


take that everyone who doesn't believe in "Mindgraines."

 

[wWw Dazwa]

I STILL say I'm you.

FROM THE FUTURE!

 

[pmak187]

I agree with the poster.

Hes not arguing whether "mindgames" exist or not. Hes saying that the name is ridiculous.

In sports, or other videogames, no one would ever use that term.

It should be called "strategy".

Muhammad Ali certainly had some "mindgames" as a boxer but most people would say he is simply smart/strategic.



Maybe there is a logical explanation of the derivation of the word, but IMO, it just sounds cheesy.

edit: err, i dont wont to say that people would never use that term, but its uncommon. also, i think that there is a distinction between mindgames and the broader term, "strategy". Im reconsidering the whole thing right now..

 

[Airo]

ok... i finally read all the post from post 1- 89
im ready to post

------------------------------

mindgames does not equal experience

experience = knowing what options works and when it works.
mindgame = knowing what options works in a given situation and choosing between the options.

pure experience and no mindgame = robot that does the same thing over and over again and gets predicted and gets punished.

simple as that.

------------------------------

experience has no conscious thinking involved. you just do what you find usually works in the situation.

mindgame has lots of conscious thinking. when what you usually do (whether defensive or offensive) doesnt work anymore, you consciously change it. that is mindgame.

---------------------------------

experience is not a fixed constant. It changes. The force that changes it is mindgame.

---------------------------------

according to proofing above, if a person lacks mindgames, he ALSO therefore MUST lack experience, since experience is what provides the options for mindgaming.

so in conclusion. Its pretty hard to misuse the word mindgame.

"You need better mindgame" = ''You need better experience so you can start mindgaming''

 

[Hank McCoy]

ok... i finally read all the post from post 1- 89
im ready to post

------------------------------

mindgames does not equal experience

experience = knowing what options works and when it works.
mindgame = knowing what options works in a given situation and choosing between the options.

pure experience and no mindgame = robot that does the same thing over and over again and gets predicted and gets punished.

simple as that.

------------------------------

experience has no conscious thinking involved. you just do what you find usually works in the situation.

mindgame has lots of conscious thinking. when what you usually do (whether defensive or offensive) doesnt work anymore, you consciously change it. that is mindgame.

---------------------------------

experience is not a fixed constant. It changes. The force that changes it is mindgame.

---------------------------------

according to proofing above, if a person lacks mindgames, he ALSO therefore MUST lack experience, since experience is what provides the options for mindgaming.

so in conclusion. Its pretty hard to misuse the word mindgame.

"You need better mindgame" = ''You need better experience so you can start mindgaming''

thats not what a mindgames is. sorry.

 

[Airo]

pffft... absolutely pfft. you could at least define it yourself or try correcting me to show that you know what you are talking about

mindgame ultimately = learning unpredictability and predicting.
unpredictability = tricking
predicting = tricking

therefore
mindgame = knowing what options works in a given situation and choosing between the options

Hank_McCov: please try and post a little more comprehensive.

 

[froz3ntear]

whether or not mind games exist cannot be answered, because it has no clear definition...

Like if someone asks you if you believe in God... you can't say yes or no, it would be wrong... is it the same God that he/she is referring too?... its all about context right?

I personally HATE the term mindgames...

Rather... If I beat someone, I'd like to just say I outsmarted him... I mean in chess and stuff, you don't say I mindgamed his ***... it sounds so stupid... the smarter player wins... the person who is creative and takes interesting nonlinear paths to attack. The person who can predict movements and actions and do the appropriate moves.

You have to outsmart the player in every game, 3rd strike, CS, Stracraft, Magic, they all have universal terms... like Broken... and being smart... duh?... why does smash have to separate itself with a term like mindgames... it always sounded awkward when i first heard bout it when i first started smash...

Or did it derive from somewhere else?...I really don't know, in either case... such an awkward sounding term.

In definition... some guy will tell me mindgames is when he runs to me, wavedashes back and fsmashes... those little tricks wouldn't work on me... I don't consider that mind games at all. Rather if he does the same thing, observes me..., grabs if i shield, then does it a 2nd time and waits for me to roll then fsmashes me... now thats not a stupid "trick". that was skills or... i guess in my definition... mind games...

I rather just say he outsmarted the player or he is more skillful... i still hate the term mindgames lol.

 

[gnosis]

I'm going to go ahead and skim through this winner winner chicken dinner of a thread and then say some **** that is probably wrong.

In general, I think on these boards that 'mindgames' has become somewhat of a blanket term for, well, as the word seems to suggets, the games of the mind; i.e., the mental aspects of the game, other than memorization of combos and moves and such (though it's often related to it). Technical skill has become a blanket term for the physical aspects of actually playing the game.

Mindgames seems to have originally referred to a more specific (and probably more preferred) definition of 'tricks', almost; somehow baiting your opponent to do what you want them to do, which is a specific part of playing intelligently. Then it expanded to be used as if it meant playing intelligently in general. The expansion I don't think is entirely inappropriate, nor do I really care.

I will say though that I don't think I've ever used the word mindgames when instructing someone in Smash.

Ok, now everyone can yell at me, for not getting that thread is a joke or not reading it all or being entirely wrong, or that their cat died after seeing my post. Whatever.

 

[K.C. Cloud]

Ok guyz, how bout this.

Outsmart your **** opponent.
Trick them.
Get them to make a mistake.
**** them for it.

In order to make wiser decisions to in the end accomplish your goal of winning the match you need experience. Experience will engrave into your mind situations in which you have fallen victim before and regardless of whether you believe it or not, when put into that situation again you tend to avoid making the mistake you did before.

The mind is a very complicated thing that can determine and decifer, remember, recall etc things that have happened in the past.

What's that saying? Learn from the past to avoid making the same mistakes in the future.

In order to avoid the same mistakes as often as you can you need experience of those situations over and over.

So maybe "mindgames" isn't the word, experience would be a better fit.
"Mindgames for tricking people" maybe just say I have experience in fooling my opponent or something.

Hell Idk, say something since people ***** and moan about the definition of "mindgames".
It's not that important if people get the general Idea of what you are trying to portray.

One thing that pisses me off though is how people think you can decifer mindgames from a ****ing video.

PC looks like his mindgames suck from his video and then when you play him he four stocks the average player. Tell me his "mindgames" suck then.

In the end, it's playing smarter than your opponent. Tricking your opponent comes after avoiding a situation he expected you to fall prey too, cause them you can just put your size 13 shoe in his *** and move on to his next stock.

 

[AOB]

Mindgames is the most overused word in smash by far. Two of my friends (pretty good players, too) have referred to people who are "pretty good, but he has no mindgames." What does that mean???

 

[Deleted member]

Technical ability is, easily, the most important part of melee.

Win. I've been saying that for ages now.

Not understanding what your opponent is doing is the entire basis of mindgames

no, as your smiley would suggest, that's just confusion.

General wit is a definition of a mindgame.

I mindgamed my way through history then.

But that doesn't make any difference in chess.

We're not playing chess.

Why is everyone's argument so easy to counter in one line?

AOB: some people are simply better at doing damage, hitting accurately, and just knowing what to do. Playing smart is learning and experience but not everyone sucks initially. I was one of those people when I started, "pretty good for no mindgames" thing.

 

[Wrath`]

Mindgames do exsist because i trash talk the heck out of people and that along with some falcorific skills i win most of the time.

 

[EnigmaticCam]

We're not playing chess.

It wasn't me who brought it up Someone was trying to put up an analogy of mindgames in smash verses other games like chess. I was just pointing out that mindgames are nonexistent in chess, so it's a bad analogy.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Here is a fun quote from another thread:

This isn't going to be a long post. All my posts are pretty short.
I figured this out while i was playing.. ( doh?) Anyway. I thought of
it so you could, Like.. Run op opponent, play a few mindgames and
when he is distracted. RUN -> Sh -> Bair! or even a Uair.. That is the
point I try to make clear. when mindgaming your opponent and he does
like a lag attack you don’t have to Grab/Nair/Fair.. you can do anything you want!
So you unlock much more possibilities! Example.. For fox. you could do a Uair.. It owns
To pop em in the air. Unlock much more possibilities.

At first thought I thought I would call it an Reverse Aerial, but, since you can Dair
Or Uair too I didn’t think it was that much a good idea.

Anyways, I'd like to point out where and why newbs go wrong. I will frequently see newbs post something along the lines of "dash dancing is pointless" simply because they understand what dash dancing actually is. It is an underlying tactic that much of Smash is built upon, actually, that tactic is what is more commonly referred to as feinting, a fake out if you will, a simple, easy to use, mindgame.

Dash dancing into an attack will almost always work against a newb. They take the bait, attack, and are essentially ****ed. I love it, works almost flawlessly. But then comes expierance, if I continue the same approach (dash dancing until they take the bait) they may eventually learn that, hey, all they need to do is A)not attack me or B)run away or C)somehow get close enough to attack me when I think I can dash away. Where the line gets drawn between something being a mindgame and something...welll...not being one comes down to whether something is reactionary.

If I see the start up animations of Marth's fsmash, or the same approach that leads into an fsmash, I may simply have the reaction to space away from the attack and retreat. This is not a mindgame, it is a reaction built from past expierances because I know the reaction works. Mindgames are ussually only on the offensive end, relying on feinting, bait and switch like tactics, and testing to find out what works and what doesn't. The defender will usually already have a preset reaction based on specific approaches, and if he doesn't already he will after he sees the approach enough. Seeing the approach often and testing differant reaction is not a mindgame though, it is more case construction and trial and error.

The way the word mindgame used to be used (back in the day, like 3 years ago before everyone started to use it as a broad term) was that, every once in awhile in a match it became so apparent that the offensive opponant tricked the defending one that someone would say "mindgames". This usually came down to people getting in dodge-attack repititions where one player would dodge, the other would attack, then the other would dodge in a cycle. Smart players like Azen let the iteration happen once, then charge a Smash and **** up the dodging opponant for the second iteration. This is just one example though. There are others, like that video where PC Chris continually tricks Mew2King to attempt a grab.

There are broader tactics used in Smash, maybe not mindgames persay, but a metagame. I know staying on platforms will help my chances of avoiding the IC infinite, so I may revolve my entire game on standing on only the platforms. This would be a strategy, for which the IC's come up with a counter strategy (and then I reform my previous strategy, because I already know that the flat ground strategy doesn't work so I must stay on the platforms, and so there is an evolution in the metagame).

Tech chasing could be considered a form of mindgames if it involves tricking the opponant, but if it is reactionary then it is not a mind game. At first, some things may actually be in the form of a mindgame, but after ample integration and testing they become a reaction and are no longer an active thought process.

 

[Tera253]

Mindgames for one smasher may not be mindgames for another. Some people may be aware of certain mindgames. It is entirely dependant on who you play.

~Tera253~

 

[mog87]

Mindgames for one smasher may not be mindgames for another. Some people may be aware of certain mindgames. It is entirely dependant on who you play.

~Tera253~

No offense, but that sounded like alot of fluff, maybe you would like to further clarify? On a sidenote apparently I "mindgame'd" my professors cause they gave me A's and B's on my papers and I didnt read the books.

 

[FrostByte]

Nowadays,, "Mindgame" is such a broad term it's not even funny anymore (well, unless it's being used as sarcasm). Your average joe will tell you that you that the best smasher would have mastered mindgame and tech skill. This is true to some extent, but thinking alond those lines, going into training mode to practice your tech skill and mindgames will get you nowhere. There is no clear defenition of what a mindgame is in the world of smash. Predicting your opponent's actions are based off luck more than anything.

It is not written in stone that player A will techroll towards the stage. If it was, first grab would win. People use the word as if there is some kind of mindgame meter that gives them some kind of magial power. People who cover their flaws by saying they have good mindgames will, in theory, get ***** by people they haven't faced before. I do believe "metagame" is more appropriate.

With that said, it's not the word, it's how you use it.

 

[Airo]

ofcourse there is a definate definition of mindgame, regardless of how you state it.

there are certainly a bunch of other wrong definitions for mindgame, but thats certainly not the case here.


--------------------------------------------

adding to those that keep saying "lacking mindgame is blanket for lacking expereince."

mindgame CANNOT equal experience

experience makes up the Subconsious part of your play.
mindgame makes up the Conscious part of your play.

 

[Aesir]

Whats the definition of mindgames then?

 

[Airo]

variations of how you word it, doesnt matter. but in all my knowledge.

mindgame is "The trickery component" of a game play

in more descriptive terms,
mindgame = predicting and becoming unpredictable

on the side:
you cant be tricky if you arnt consciously thinking and trying to be.

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

Mindgames- deliberate actions of calculated psychological manipulation intended to intimidate or confuse (usually for competitive advantage); "football players try to play mind games with the opposition"; "the jeweler's mind game is to convince lovers that the size of a gemstone reflects the depth of their feelings"

I find it funny I have to quote something I posted to answer

and as I said before most of the time "Mindgames" are simply dumb luck.
Example: In the video with previosuly posted Jing simply directed his fire fox towards the level, not towards the stage or the edge the fact that Bombsoldier jumped from the ledge was his own mistake and the other players luck.

 

[Airo]

luck does not exist. luck is a superstitional active force that sways the statistics of probability against its odds.

good luck charm is a superstitional charm that actively causes something good to happen against all its odds. and we all know thats impossible.

on top, the video. what happened was not luck, it was more like instinctive response.

mindgames are not simply dumb luck because luck does not exist. luck is not even a liable term to use in a modern scientific age.

 

[Vall3y]

so what he basicly did is guessing right.
he could have firefox'ed stright and get hit, making bomb soldier the 'right gusser'.
just like in RPS, if one goes rock it should be because he thinks his opponent will go sccissors, and if his opponent went paper (because he expecetd him to go rock) then he was the right one.
anyway what im saying is, there is more than just luck in these rock paper sccissors situations, as there are people that 'guess' better, and some people are better in rps etc

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

The problem isn't so much whether or not mindgames exist. The problem is that the term "mindgames" is not only too general to describe everything that is happening in 2 or more players' heads during a match, but it's also been tossed around so much that it's lost all meaning. For example, I've seen people at tournaments shout "MINDGAME!" when someone gets hit by a simple f-smash. The f-smash itself isn't a mindgame. Everything leading to it could be a mindgame (including tricking the opponent into thinking that you are not going to f-smash him), but when it's shouted everytime a f-smash connects, wtf... There has to be some kind of prediction, trickery, etc. for it to count as a mindgame.

Another time the term is used too frequently and generally is when people are commenting on matches. When someone posts a match of them asking for a critique, often there's a reply such as "you need to use more mindgames." The term is too broad when used here, and will not help anyone unless elaborated on. Likewise, when i see comments like "you are too predictable" that also needs more elaboration. It's much more helpful to take the time to notice a specific example like "You spotdodge everytime you land, that's why your opponent keeps hitting you with his u-smash." and say that rather then "use mindgames."

 

[Mew2King]

i dont know how to fight falco at all, my entire style sucks against falco

marth however i love fighting and dash dance grab works wonders against him. All marth can do in time to get away from a "well" performed dash dance grab after missing an aerial is to dodge, and if I time shine right after missing the grab, I can waveshine + regrab marth before his dodge ends. This strategy of mine is amazing and I'm suprised other ppl never realized how brokenly good this is if mastered completely.

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

on top, the video. what happened was not luck, it was more like instinctive response.

mindgames are not simply dumb luck because luck does not exist. luck is not even a liable term to use in a modern scientific age.

you need to explain things slower and in smaller words i'm what society would call "Special" anyway if you look there was no chance Jing could have made it back to the stage if Bombsoldier stayed on the edge or... "Jing was lucky that Bombsoldier jumped from the edge" not Jing used mindgames to trick Bombsoldier. I don't know much about anything so continuing an arguement which I am clearly loseing is pointless.
(and yes I know luck doesn't exist but neither does God and people are crazy about him/her/it)
----

The problem isn't so much whether or not mindgames exist. The problem is that the term "mindgames" is not only too general to describe everything that is happening in 2 or more players' heads during a match, but it's also been tossed around so much that it's lost all meaning...

I (and basicly everyone else) have seen the fact that "Mindgame" is thrown around here way too much

 

[Aesir]

variations of how you word it, doesnt matter. but in all my knowledge.

mindgame is "The trickery component" of a game play

in more descriptive terms,
mindgame = predicting and becoming unpredictable

on the side:
you cant be tricky if you arnt consciously thinking and trying to be.

if you consciously think, you're slow, consciously your brain isn't fast enough. Subconsciously you can, thats where experience and habits come into play. As for the rest of your post, that comes down to habits as well, good habits that is.

luck does not exist. luck is a superstitional active force that sways the statistics of probability against its odds.

good luck charm is a superstitional charm that actively causes something good to happen against all its odds. and we all know thats impossible.

on top, the video. what happened was not luck, it was more like instinctive response.

mindgames are not simply dumb luck because luck does not exist. luck is not even a liable term to use in a modern scientific age.

Luck does exist, not saying one should believe in supersticion but some people are just more lucky then others. and I do think luck makes a huge impact on 'mindgames'

 

[ximrekcuf]

Mind games exist! Theres no denying it. Where strategy and planning exist, mind games will always be present.

 

[Brookman]

i dont know how to fight falco at all, my entire style sucks against falco

marth however i love fighting and dash dance grab works wonders against him. All marth can do in time to get away from a "well" performed dash dance grab after missing an aerial is to dodge, and if I time shine right after missing the grab, I can waveshine + regrab marth before his dodge ends. This strategy of mine is amazing and I'm suprised other ppl never realized how brokenly good this is if mastered completely.

that's why you don'tknow how to fight falco, cause his lasers counter your dash dance to grab stylez. I dislike playing against falco.

 

[Wilhelmsan]

i dont know how to fight falco at all, my entire style sucks against falco

As a fellow fox player, I gotta say watching you fight PC is really painful.

MINDGAME EXIST!

 

[mog87]

Mind games exist! Theres no denying it. Where strategy and planning exist, mind games will always be present.

Oh man, thou almost persuadeth to believe in mindgames.

 

[Crocop's Left Leg]

i agree that mindgames is an annoying term to use. all it is is faking them out, its annoying how everyone here puts so much emphasis on these ''mindgames'' too, once you learn your opponent it becomes natural, atleast for me, to fake them out. i mean, aren't you ALWAYS trying to anticipate and counter their moves?

 

[Zeee]

Omg this topic is all mindgames.

Its da supa waavedahsh right dea.

:O Trying to trick me out with yo forum mindgames....... MINED GAMES!!!!!!!

Seriously... Mindgames is a funny term after hearing it for the first time.
(my first was the impersonated Wes fights lols.)
After reading mindgames over and over it does get annoying.

Mindgames is a ssb term only

Basketball has the And'1 type moves (I broke 2 fingers )

Soccer has the dribblin/trick shots ( I took tae kwon doe instead (brown belt atm)

Hockey HAVE YOU SEEN SOME NICE HOCKEY SHOTS? ( I did golf its the same thing just safer (lol)

Football has mindgames, that football player has the best mindgames ever ( he got through college and junk without knowing how to read.)

Tennis has mindgames... lets see... there's the 90+mph shots ( supah mindgame) theres the top spin shots and junk...

Uh.... Martial arts has ownage mind games ( I knee'd someone once in a tourney falcon style OMG he couldn't fight no moe) Fake out punches ( my fave) spinning for no reason... lefting a leg up to throw a punch.... going for a punch to only end up kicking..... scratching your head throws people off.. so does yawning.... lol.

MINDGAMES we honestly have to find a better name for that b4 brawl lol.

I miss watching And 1 matches and haveing everyone around me scream when someone defi

 

[Aiko]

I like your term "mined-games"

It goes with snake. or how about C4 games?