Tomkraven
Smash Journeyman
Im recently having problems specially with this move... i dont know how to outspace it or something... i know u can jump over Mk and dair him but thats too predictable and risky.
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Metaknights Ftilt
- Thread starter Tomkraven
- Start date
Hostility
Smash Ace
Yea, Ftilt destroys Game and Watch. Shielding it or just staying out of Ftilt range is pretty much all you can do. If they are spamming it than cross them up by doing up B over them to a falling back air or down air depending on how prepared you think they will be.
I have a lot of problems with this. The best advice I can tell you is to bait it out of him early. Make it come out when you want it to then you'll have an easier time punishing it. It's hard to do this, but shouldn't be too hard if the MK uses the move a lot.
Somehow Dsmash out-ranges it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vQlMAYBy5g (@time 2:58)
Somehow Dsmash out-ranges it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vQlMAYBy5g (@time 2:58)
omegablackmage
Certified Lion Rider
that and maybe, gw changes his hurtbox by holding his arms up, thus sneaking a bit more range in. interesting find
Neb
Smash Lord
That, and hitbox coverage magnifies when meeting with attack hurtboxes.
_Phloat_
Smash Champion
That, and hes ****ing Game and Watch.
Lethe
Smash Cadet
it's mk's best move vs g&w... but if you can predict it, you can punish.
i try to shield dash into a perfect shield and grab or jab after the first hit. kind of risky though. a safer option: RAR like you're gonna do a bair, but then spotdodge and drift through the ftilt/upb/whatever the mk does. if he doesn't cancel the ftilt you will be in a good position to land a dsmash or grab. the ftilt has lag at the end, so... use that.
i try to shield dash into a perfect shield and grab or jab after the first hit. kind of risky though. a safer option: RAR like you're gonna do a bair, but then spotdodge and drift through the ftilt/upb/whatever the mk does. if he doesn't cancel the ftilt you will be in a good position to land a dsmash or grab. the ftilt has lag at the end, so... use that.
False. MK's Shuttle Loop is the best move against G&W. Seriously.
Cyan_
Smash Lord
- Joined
- May 31, 2008
- Messages
- 1,208
Yeah...Shuttle Loop ooS out of Turtle is pretty stupid and annoying.
ShadowPhoenix951
Smash Ace
That's Marth you're thinking of. Shuttle loop doesn't need to be oos. Or were you unaware that it has invincibility frames?Yeah...Shuttle Loop ooS out of Turtle is pretty stupid and annoying.
Shuttle Loop stops all of G&W's aerials. End of story. It's so lame =(
At leasts friendlies with MK are decent.
At leasts friendlies with MK are decent.
Game&Watch
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2008
- Messages
- 17
i typically attempt a grab and am usually successful with that technique
Lethe
Smash Cadet
oh yeah, i forgot upb. eating upb when you go for an aerial really sucks... still... i don't think you can space ftilt cause it outranges bair and can be canceled... so they are both a pain. fortunately SHADing can put you in a position to punish both moves.
Sukai
Smash Champion
Try baiting him, then going in for a grab when he's done.
It may have low ending lag, but there's still ending lag.
It may have low ending lag, but there's still ending lag.
sonic 12111
Smash Journeyman
Just try not to get into range of his attacks. and try to d tilt him if he does it. I just do chef and he always sidesteps toward me and he gets hit with the pan
ShadowPhoenix951
Smash Ace
That... won't ever work against anyone good. The chef has so much cool down time that MK can just punish you for it. And MK's ftilt and dtilt outrange G&W's dtilt, so that option is gone.
SheerMadness
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2005
- Messages
- 4,781
Metaknight's f-tilt and up b make him almost impossible to approach if used correctly. We definitely need to figure out the best way to approach metaknight.
lou4222
Smash Lord
The key goes through shuttle loop and still inevitably metaknights will still try to use it when you are above them. Whenever you are above a meta and you are both in the air use the key! As to approaching metaknight the shuttle loop does destroy the bair. One thing I have learned( I play a very solid metaknight regularly) is to almost bait out the shuttle loop. You can do this by short hopping and acting as though you will bair. If you mix these fakes with actual turtles you might get hit with the shuttle loop every now and then but more often than not I think you should be ok.
Also I like to approach with the key against MK. It is true that this can be shielded but if done properly you can key behind metaknight and avoid the shield grab. After a couple of these are shielded and you land behind him the shield will wear down and you can hit him with the key and immediately combo into nair and bair. Let me know what you guys think. These methods work for me if I am disciplined enough and am able to execute like I want to.
Also I like to approach with the key against MK. It is true that this can be shielded but if done properly you can key behind metaknight and avoid the shield grab. After a couple of these are shielded and you land behind him the shield will wear down and you can hit him with the key and immediately combo into nair and bair. Let me know what you guys think. These methods work for me if I am disciplined enough and am able to execute like I want to.
ShadowPhoenix951
Smash Ace
There are a few problems with this however:
1. Yes, the key does beat out an aerial shuttle loop. However, it will never beat a grounded shuttle loop. Why? Because it has invincibility frames. Not just insane priority, invincibility, meaning MK can not be touched during the first half of the move.
2. You shouldn't be able to bait out shuttle loop. MK doesn't have to throw out shuttle loop until he sees the turtle. He's not going to throw it out there if he doesn't see the turtle. And even if he does, he still has the ridiculous glide attack. Which he can throw out when he's next to the ground, and then activate another shuttle loop without fear of retribution.
3. If you use the key behind MK, you're right that you can't get shield grabbed. What you neglect to mention is that you have a lot of landing lag from that move (unless you slow fall). And what does MK punish best? Lag. He can turn around and ftilt you, do a jab combo (why he'd do that I don't know), use a tornado, turn around and fsmash (you may be able to shield this), and worst of all, a dsmash. And you can't punish any of these besides the jab.
To SheerMadness:
G&W has no safe way to approach MK. Anything he tries, MK has an answer to. And G&W doesn't have an answer to most of MK's approaches. Honestly, this matchup should be moved to 70:30. This being why:
- MK can gimp G&W far better than G&W can gimp MK (someone gimp MK. Hah).
- MK has an easier time killing (not earlier, easier).
- MK has an answer to any approach G&W has.
- G&W has few answers to MK's approach. Except the 'nado.
- G&W's spacing game is suddenly gone, as MK can space just as well.
1. Yes, the key does beat out an aerial shuttle loop. However, it will never beat a grounded shuttle loop. Why? Because it has invincibility frames. Not just insane priority, invincibility, meaning MK can not be touched during the first half of the move.
2. You shouldn't be able to bait out shuttle loop. MK doesn't have to throw out shuttle loop until he sees the turtle. He's not going to throw it out there if he doesn't see the turtle. And even if he does, he still has the ridiculous glide attack. Which he can throw out when he's next to the ground, and then activate another shuttle loop without fear of retribution.
3. If you use the key behind MK, you're right that you can't get shield grabbed. What you neglect to mention is that you have a lot of landing lag from that move (unless you slow fall). And what does MK punish best? Lag. He can turn around and ftilt you, do a jab combo (why he'd do that I don't know), use a tornado, turn around and fsmash (you may be able to shield this), and worst of all, a dsmash. And you can't punish any of these besides the jab.
To SheerMadness:
G&W has no safe way to approach MK. Anything he tries, MK has an answer to. And G&W doesn't have an answer to most of MK's approaches. Honestly, this matchup should be moved to 70:30. This being why:
- MK can gimp G&W far better than G&W can gimp MK (someone gimp MK. Hah).
- MK has an easier time killing (not earlier, easier).
- MK has an answer to any approach G&W has.
- G&W has few answers to MK's approach. Except the 'nado.
- G&W's spacing game is suddenly gone, as MK can space just as well.
Mr. Escalator
G&W Guru
The main thing G&W can do versus MK is camp him hard. While G&W has really no safe approaches, he is also very dangerous and difficult to approach. This really depends on a lead, whether it be a stock or percent one, so these moments are what you should be striving for, especially at the start of the match.
Ftilt is much less of a threat when you are in control, but when you arent, it's very hard to outspace safely. You can try to bait it and maybe approach through it using powershielding. Iunno, I personally have more trouble with Shuttle Loop.
Edit: Also, I disagree with your points. MK gimping you is just as, if not more, rare as him gimping you. G&W probably has an easier time applying the pressure offstage. I don't believe MK has an easier time killing, either. Just be able understand his killing options in different scenarios of the match; The situations arent hard to avoid.
Also, I feel G&W has fine answers to MK's approach game. The real issue is the other way. MK completely ***** G&W's approaches.
Agreed on MK has an answer to G&W's approach, and to a lesser degree on the spacing game. This isn't always true, especially with G&W's vertical control. G&W has a lot more trouble on level stages because his vertical game is hindered.
It's not 7:3, at least in my honest opinion. It's a hard matchup, but not any harder than most characters have against him. I think the current ratio we have listed in the stickied thread fine for now.
Ftilt is much less of a threat when you are in control, but when you arent, it's very hard to outspace safely. You can try to bait it and maybe approach through it using powershielding. Iunno, I personally have more trouble with Shuttle Loop.
Edit: Also, I disagree with your points. MK gimping you is just as, if not more, rare as him gimping you. G&W probably has an easier time applying the pressure offstage. I don't believe MK has an easier time killing, either. Just be able understand his killing options in different scenarios of the match; The situations arent hard to avoid.
Also, I feel G&W has fine answers to MK's approach game. The real issue is the other way. MK completely ***** G&W's approaches.
Agreed on MK has an answer to G&W's approach, and to a lesser degree on the spacing game. This isn't always true, especially with G&W's vertical control. G&W has a lot more trouble on level stages because his vertical game is hindered.
It's not 7:3, at least in my honest opinion. It's a hard matchup, but not any harder than most characters have against him. I think the current ratio we have listed in the stickied thread fine for now.
Motel Vacaville of the West
WHAT AM I FIGHTING FOR!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Up B should work well, knowing if you both Up B at the same time.
Also, Up B should work against F-Tilt as well, you're invincible going up.
Also, Up B should work against F-Tilt as well, you're invincible going up.
I stopped reading here :/.
There is only one IF and it's on frame 5.
He's not invincible for the first half of the move lol.
^^this.
People, something you guys *need* to realize it that "spacing right" takes two people. It takes the MK, but also the other char messing up. There, I said it. This is one of the things that bugs me. Yeah, getting around someone with more range is tough, but if it were impossible, marth would have been the unbeatable char in melee... >_<
People seem to have this really blown up vision on MK. Yes he's good. But he's not as broken as people seem to think.
N-air hits MK out of his shuttle loop, it timed right. Baiting the almightly shuttle loop works as well. I know I'm not good, but this spirit of "wah wah" isn't gonna help.
People, something you guys *need* to realize it that "spacing right" takes two people. It takes the MK, but also the other char messing up. There, I said it. This is one of the things that bugs me. Yeah, getting around someone with more range is tough, but if it were impossible, marth would have been the unbeatable char in melee... >_<
People seem to have this really blown up vision on MK. Yes he's good. But he's not as broken as people seem to think.
N-air hits MK out of his shuttle loop, it timed right. Baiting the almightly shuttle loop works as well. I know I'm not good, but this spirit of "wah wah" isn't gonna help.
Palpi
Smash Hero
Baiting a ftilt then getting in a bair would work since all of the lag of the move comes from the 3rd hit and the 3rd hit is the one with all of the range. You will jump over his dtilt and turtle him in the face.