MetaKnight: Move Tier List

[Ulevo]

Umm, no. You don't have to hit with the first strike of the three, and if you're good you won't.

Then exactly what is the point of using it? There is not enough damage accumulated by simply hitting with a single strike to warrant using it over his other moves. His DTilt and FTilt both do much better damage and have longer range. And you can't attempt to hit with anything but the last hit of the Fair by that logic, because if you don't commit after hitting with the first or second, the opponent will retaliate. There's just no point in what it is you're talking about other than combining your spacing tactics with psychological mix ups.

Please do.

Fair enough. I'll do it later when I have time.

I don't appreciate your attitude.

Oh well?

You can't shield in the air. Some characters have virtually no options that come out quickly enough to stop a Fair approach once they realize the MK has commited to the move.

And most of those characters consist of the lower end of the Tier List. You know, the characters that get destroyed by everyone else?

Even with that aside, they're still not better than DTilt, FTilt, Mach Tornado, or most of the other options Meta Knight has for "shutting down" said characters.

Those aren't the matchups I was talking about, but please tell me what Bowser and DK have on disjointed hitboxes.

Who says you need disjointed hitboxes to override a disjointed move? The only criteria is that the hit box hits the hurt box. Disjointed hit boxes are generally better at meeting that criteria for "priority" because they leave the hurt box less exposed. If an attack is able to out range that hit box, it doesn't matter if it's disjointed or not.

That said, I'll create a list later on.

Yes, many characters aren't completely owned by the Fair, but several are.

I wasn't aware that Sonic, Captain Falcon and Ganondorf were ***** by Meta Knights Fair and no other tactic in his arsenal, or any other Top - High Tier character for that matter.

Besides, outranging Fair isn't enough to stop it; they must also outprioritize it or have a disjointed hitbox.

Did you read what you typed before posting it?

Disjointed hit box = irrelevant.

Outranging Fair is enough to stop it, provided that the distance between Meta Knights hit box and the opposing characters hurt box is out of reach. This is the case for many characters; even those without disjointed hit boxes.

Yeah... I know... I never said it was always safe against a grounded opponent.

Well, considering that Fair is most useful within short hop range, which is the grounded level where most characters reside, it would reasonable to say that it isn't safe against a lot of characters in many circumstances.

You don't shut down characters because your aerial wins in the air. You shut down characters with aerials if your aerial prevents them from approaching or reacting in any circumstance, such as with Marths Fair, or G&Ws turtle (to some extent).

I'm aware, but I think it's important to note that the "et cetera" is only like two other characters to my knowledge.

Why? Because I only provided a list of just three?

True, but Dsmash allows for more mindgames than Fsmash.

 

[Deoxys]

Then exactly what is the point of using it? There is not enough damage accumulated by simply hitting with a single strike to warrant using it over his other moves. His DTilt and FTilt both do much better damage and have longer range. And you can't attempt to hit with anything but the last hit of the Fair by that logic, because if you don't commit after hitting with the first or second, the opponent will retaliate. There's just no point in what it is you're talking about other than combining your spacing tactics with psychological mix ups.

Uhh, you hit with the second and 3rd hit. If you think it's so bad you should probably tell M2K because he does this all the time.

Fair enough. I'll do it later when I have time.

Sweet.

Oh well?

No, fix your attitude or get out.

And most of those characters consist of the lower end of the Tier List. You know, the characters that get destroyed by everyone else?

Wario and Falco say hi.

Even with that aside, they're still not better than DTilt, FTilt, Mach Tornado, or most of the other options Meta Knight has for "shutting down" said characters.

Agreed. You convinced me of this yesterday.

Who says you need disjointed hitboxes to override a disjointed move? The only criteria is that the hit box hits the hurt box. Disjointed hit boxes are generally better at meeting that criteria for "priority" because they leave the hurt box less exposed. If an attack is able to out range that hit box, it doesn't matter if it's disjointed or not.

That said, I'll create a list later on.

Why doesn't it matter if an attack is disjointed or not? If the attack isn't disjointed, its hurtbox extends as far as its hitbox by definition, so the disjointed attack will still hit. Am I missing something here?

I wasn't aware that Sonic, Captain Falcon and Ganondorf were ***** by Meta Knights Fair and no other tactic in his arsenal, or any other Top - High Tier character for that matter.

Wario and Falco aren't ***** by other aerials of MK's, although they are still hurt by them. Also, it's super important in the mirror, just like fsmash.

Did you read what you typed before posting it?

Disjointed hit box = irrelevant.

Outranging Fair is enough to stop it, provided that the distance between Meta Knights hit box and the opposing characters hurt box is out of reach. This is the case for many characters; even those without disjointed hit boxes.

I read everything before I post it. Did you read that part before you posted it? It's hard to decipher what you're trying to say with the bolded part, and what I'm interpreting it to mean is stupid. If MK's hitbox doesn't touch the opposing character's hurtbox, yet the opposing character's hitbox hits MK's hurtbox, the move is disjointed.

Well, considering that Fair is most useful within short hop range, which is the grounded level where most characters reside, it would reasonable to say that it isn't safe against a lot of characters in many circumstances.

You don't shut down characters because your aerial wins in the air. You shut down characters with aerials if your aerial prevents them from approaching or reacting in any circumstance, such as with Marths Fair, or G&Ws turtle (to some extent).

You can on Rainbow Cruise.

Why? Because I only provided a list of just three?

Not at all, but rather because there are only a few matchups where Fsmash is really important, and you listed the biggets ones.

 

[Ulevo]

Uhh, you hit with the second and 3rd hit. If you think it's so bad you should probably tell M2K because he does this all the time.

That doesn't really give relevance to your statement. I am not stating Fair isn't useful, or that it does not have its place among his move set. I am saying it is much less useful because you can SDI out of it, which you can. Using single hits makes this move much less effective, whether or not M2K actually in fact does this intentionally or not. I don't even know if he does, but for arguments sake I'm going to assume he does.

Bottom line, the fact that it is a multi hit hinders its capabilities, and make it easy to counter, even if said tactics can be used. They don't work around the facts or the problem.

No, fix your attitude or get out.

There honestly isn't anything wrong with my attitude.

Rather than playing Moderator, if you feel my attitude needs adjusting and that I should "get out", why don't you use the report button and actually contact a Moderator. You wouldn't be as embarrassing that way.

Wario and Falco say hi.

I said most for a reason.

Why doesn't it matter if an attack is disjointed or not? If the attack isn't disjointed, its hurtbox extends as far as its hitbox by definition, so the disjointed attack will still hit. Am I missing something here?

I think you have a misunderstanding. A disjointed hit box is merely a hit box that is not directly connected to the hurt box of the character. That doesn't mean that all attacks that are not disjointed will have the hurt box directly in sync or next to the hurt box. They're just much closer than normal.

For example, if Donkey Kong uses his Bair, which is obviously not a disjointed hit box, has the hurt box placed much farther back. While in comparison to say Marth, Marths attacks are not connected to his hurt box at all.

Wario and Falco aren't ***** by other aerials of MK's, although they are still hurt by them. Also, it's super important in the mirror, just like fsmash.

I wasn't talking exclusively on aerial attacks, I was referring to everything. For the record though, Dair is a much better aerial in the overall match up against Falco.

Repeat after me. Fair is NOT super important in a Meta Knight ditto.

The most important key in a Meta Knight ditto is to out space your opponent. How do you plan on out spacing your opponent when Fair is one of his shortest ranged attacks?

Fair is terrible in a Meta Knight ditto. It's only good for rush down during follow ups and baiting.

I read everything before I post it. Did you read that part before you posted it? It's hard to decipher what you're trying to say with the bolded part, and what I'm interpreting it to mean is stupid. If MK's hitbox doesn't touch the opposing character's hurtbox, yet the opposing character's hitbox hits MK's hurtbox, the move is disjointed.

You have a false understanding of how hit boxes work.

If disjointed hit boxes worked like that, Marth would clearly **** every character to death.

Normal hit boxes are merely an extension of the hurt box that does damage and knock back when it connects to another character, while disjointed hit boxes are completely separate from the hurt box. However, that doesn't mean if you hit the hit box of the character that lacks a disjointed hit box, they will receive damage or knock back.

Snake is a very over kill, but perfect example. His Ftilt has huge range, but it isn't disjointed by definition. If Meta Knight tries to Fair him, his Ftilt will plow right through it and Meta Knight won't even come close to giving him so much as a scratch.

There are many instances within Brawl where hit boxes, disjointed or not, can override Meta Knights Fair, as well as other attacks of his.

You can on Rainbow Cruise.

I was generalizing, but fair enough.

Not at all, but rather because there are only a few matchups where Fsmash is really important, and you listed the biggets ones.

Bowser, G&W, Ice Climbers, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Marth, Meta Knight, Squirtle, Wario, and Yoshi are all match ups in which I have personal experience with, where I use FSmash as an important or effective tool to win. I'm sure there may be others, but I haven't experienced them myself. Even amongst other match ups, FSmash can be an important tool for specific aspects of gameplay against most characters, such as edge guarding.

 

[Sushi-Man]

FSmash can be an important tool for specific aspects of gameplay against most characters, such as edge guarding.

lol. I hope this is a joke.

 

[Affinity]

lol. I hope this is a joke.

Why? F-Smash is great for on stage edge-guarding, especially at higher levels of play.

 

[Deoxys]

That doesn't really give relevance to your statement. I am not stating Fair isn't useful, or that it does not have its place among his move set. I am saying it is much less useful because you can SDI out of it, which you can. Using single hits makes this move much less effective, whether or not M2K actually in fact does this intentionally or not. I don't even know if he does, but for arguments sake I'm going to assume he does.

Bottom line, the fact that it is a multi hit hinders its capabilities, and make it easy to counter, even if said tactics can be used. They don't work around the facts or the problem.

M2K does this deliberately, and it's not a single hit, it's two hits. I agree now that it's not his best move, so I think we're square with this.

There honestly isn't anything wrong with my attitude.

Rather than playing Moderator, if you feel my attitude needs adjusting and that I should "get out", why don't you use the report button and actually contact a Moderator. You wouldn't be as embarrassing that way.

How am I "embarassing?" You didn't break any rules, you just had a condescending attitude. Just because you're allowed to be rude doesn't mean it's ok. You implied that I had no experience with what I was talking about and that I was wasting your time, which is untrue. I suppose I was wasting your time by not understanding what "disjointed" means, and so I apologize.

I said most for a reason.

Ah, verily. I must have skipped over a couple of words in that sentence.

I think you have a misunderstanding. A disjointed hit box is merely a hit box that is not directly connected to the hurt box of the character. That doesn't mean that all attacks that are not disjointed will have the hurt box directly in sync or next to the hurt box. They're just much closer than normal.

For example, if Donkey Kong uses his Bair, which is obviously not a disjointed hit box, has the hurt box placed much farther back. While in comparison to say Marth, Marths attacks are not connected to his hurt box at all.

I see, I do have a misunderstanding. So is there a word for a hitbox that is attached to a hurtbox but extends beyond it? If not, I feel like there should be.

I wasn't talking exclusively on aerial attacks, I was referring to everything. For the record though, Dair is a much better aerial in the overall match up against Falco.

True. I meant against a Falco in the air.

Repeat after me. Fair is NOT super important in a Meta Knight ditto.

The most important key in a Meta Knight ditto is to out space your opponent. How do you plan on out spacing your opponent when Fair is one of his shortest ranged attacks?

Fair is terrible in a Meta Knight ditto. It's only good for rush down during follow ups and baiting.

Ok, so "super important" is an exaggeration, but "terrible" is wrong, too. Its range is behind "only" Fsmash, Ftilt, Dtilt, Dair's far back corner, Utilt (ew), MT (ew) and Dsmash IIRC (Glide attack not included because it sucks here), thus it is still the best option for horizontal aerial spacing.

You have a false understanding of how hit boxes work.

If disjointed hit boxes worked like that, Marth would clearly **** every character to death.

Normal hit boxes are merely an extension of the hurt box that does damage and knock back when it connects to another character, while disjointed hit boxes are completely separate from the hurt box. However, that doesn't mean if you hit the hit box of the character that lacks a disjointed hit box, they will receive damage or knock back.

Snake is a very over kill, but perfect example. His Ftilt has huge range, but it isn't disjointed by definition. If Meta Knight tries to Fair him, his Ftilt will plow right through it and Meta Knight won't even come close to giving him so much as a scratch.

There are many instances within Brawl where hit boxes, disjointed or not, can override Meta Knights Fair, as well as other attacks of his.

It's not that I have a false understanding of how hitboxes work; it's that I had a false understanding of what "disjointed" means.

Bowser, G&W, Ice Climbers, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Marth, Meta Knight, Squirtle, Wario, and Yoshi are all match ups in which I have personal experience with, where I use FSmash as an important or effective tool to win. I'm sure there may be others, but I haven't experienced them myself. Even amongst other match ups, FSmash can be an important tool for specific aspects of gameplay against most characters, such as edge guarding.

Why is it good against IC and Wario? I haven't had much success with it against them.

Why? F-Smash is great for on stage edge-guarding, especially at higher levels of play.

I'm guessing he was assuming "edge-guarding" to be exclusively offstage.

 

[Babar-Thorbald]

Wario and Falco aren't ***** by other aerials of MK's, although they are still hurt by them.

Well, I don't know about Wario, but I've played quite a lot of falcos (though all of them weren't top players), and I still think that Dair is a better option for racking damages and not getting CGed by him, am I wrong?
(assuming you don't plank, of course...)

 

[brinboy789]

what would be MK's best move?

 

[Babar-Thorbald]

Lol, he's got so much... It's quite hard to choose ;p

If you want a "best move", it would depend on the opponent though.

 

[Deoxys]

Well, I don't know about Wario, but I've played quite a lot of falcos (though all of them weren't top players), and I still think that Dair is a better option for racking damages and not getting CGed by him, am I wrong?
(assuming you don't plank, of course...)

You're not wrong. I meant when Falco is in the air.

what would be MK's best move?

Top
Ftilt
Dtilt
Mach Tornado
Fair
Nair

High
Dair
Dsmash
Fsmash
Shuttle Loop
Drill Rush

Middle
Dthrow
Uthrow
Uair
Glide Attack
Dash Attack
Bair

Low
Utilt
Usmash
Bthrow

Bottom
Dimensional Cape
Fthrow
Jab

Mach Ftilt is too good.

 

[Babar-Thorbald]

You're not wrong. I meant when Falco is in the air.

Ok, but what do you mean by "when Falco is in the air? Because if it's when he SHDL, I mean... All the time, it's better to come from above, in order to avoid getting hit by his freakin' lasers. Or do you mean when he is recovering?...

It would be troublesome for me if I do wrong against falco, because I'm gonna play a friendly tournament with friends on saturday, and among them, there are 4 Falcos^^
(over around 10 persons, that's quite a lot ><).

 

[Affinity]

Top
Ftilt
Dtilt
Mach Tornado
Fair
Nair

High
Dair
Dsmash
Fsmash
Shuttle Loop
Drill Rush

Middle
Dthrow
Uthrow
Uair
Glide Attack
Dash Attack
Bair

Low
Utilt
Usmash
Bthrow

Bottom
Dimensional Cape
Fthrow
Jab

B-throw is too low. IMO it should be between Dash Attack and B-air.


Also, Drill rush is too high. It's great for recovery, but that's about it. Middle of Middle Tier at best.

 

[Deoxys]

B-throw is too low. IMO it should be between Dash Attack and B-air.


Also, Drill rush is too high. It's great for recovery, but that's about it. Middle of Middle Tier at best.

I literally just moved Bthrow at the last second. When DI'd properly, isn't it impossible to guarantee a followup? Or is that just against light characters?
For some reason I confused Bthrow with Dthrow

Also, Affinity, please explain why Dair would be better than Uair for stopping momentum when hit up.

Ok, but what do you mean by "when Falco is in the air? Because if it's when he SHDL, I mean... All the time, it's better to come from above, in order to avoid getting hit by his freakin' lasers. Or do you mean when he is recovering?...

It would be troublesome for me if I do wrong against falco, because I'm gonna play a friendly tournament with friends on saturday, and among them, there are 4 Falcos^^
(over around 10 persons, that's quite a lot ><).

Aerial laser comes out on frame 10. Fair comes out on frame 6.

 

[Flamingo]

what would be MK's best move?

it should be dsmash.

 

[Plairnkk]

i use dimensonal cape a TON for recovering/edgeguarding. its wayyyy underused.

 

[Deoxys]

it should be dsmash.

I thought this for months, but now it's abundantly clear to me that MK has several better moves.

i use dimensonal cape a TON for recovering/edgeguarding. its wayyyy underused.

How do you edgeguard with it effectively?

 

[Babar-Thorbald]

I think he meant hedgehop (which is a way to edgeguard)
Because it's quite easy to keep your invicibility frames with it, innit?...

 

[Ulevo]

M2K does this deliberately, and it's not a single hit, it's two hits. I agree now that it's not his best move, so I think we're square with this.

Fair enough.

How am I "embarassing?" You didn't break any rules, you just had a condescending attitude. Just because you're allowed to be rude doesn't mean it's ok. You implied that I had no experience with what I was talking about and that I was wasting your time, which is untrue. I suppose I was wasting your time by not understanding what "disjointed" means, and so I apologize.

I never implied you were wasting my time. I was insinuating that in order for me to prove you wrong with factual data, I would have to put forth a lot of time consuming effort in order to do so (which I plan accumulate said data in the long run for my personal reasons, but anyway), and I have time restraints due to a full time job seven days a week. Therefor, it would be more beneficial if you could simply test these things yourself. It's informative, and by no means difficult to do. If you feel I had an attitude, well, that is your interpretation. I had no such intentions.

I see, I do have a misunderstanding. So is there a word for a hitbox that is attached to a hurtbox but extends beyond it? If not, I feel like there should be.

No. Generally a hit box that is disjointed is referred to as a disjointed hit box. Anything else is just a 'hit box'. Disjointed hit boxes range for everything from Ikes sword, to Ivysaurs vines, to Samus Zair, to Olimars Pikmin, to many of G&Ws attacks, et cetera...

Basically, the easy way to look at it is that if the attack is connected to the body of the characters animation, such as an arm, a leg, an knee, et cetera... it's most likely a normal hit box. If the method of attack has a weapon, or something that is completely separate from the characters body, such as a sword, vine, pikmin, et cetera... It's most likely a disjointed hit box.

Ok, so "super important" is an exaggeration, but "terrible" is wrong, too. Its range is behind "only" Fsmash, Ftilt, Dtilt, Dair's far back corner, Utilt (ew), MT (ew) and Dsmash IIRC (Glide attack not included because it sucks here), thus it is still the best option for horizontal aerial spacing.

"Terrible" was an exaggeration as well. Fair is a very good move, but it isn't as important as most of his other moves.

Also, Dairs back corner has less range than Fair (actually Dairs back end of the hit box is equal to the front, believe it or not). I believe you also meant something other than Utilt, as it's a vertical hit box. I'm not sure of the comparison you could make to Fair.

It's not that I have a false understanding of how hitboxes work; it's that I had a false understanding of what "disjointed" means.

This is fine.

Why is it good against IC and Wario? I haven't had much success with it against them.

Wario has next to no range on Meta Knights attacks, so he has to weave in and out of Meta Knights range in order to properly compete with him. For attacks like Fair and FTilt, which have commitment, this is possible for better Wario players. For attacks like FSmash, this is very difficult if almost impossible for Wario to capitalize on since it has next to no lag after execution, and the hit box is deceptively large. There is start up lag, but it isn't safe for Wario to attempt to run and try to catch Meta Knight before he uses it, since he most likely won't and the risk vs reward isn't worth it.

Against Ice Climbers, it is good for similar reasons. The added benefit here is that Ice Climbers will often attempt to run in and shield your attacks to nail a grab. Unless they PS, FSmash will knock them farther away, and this makes it hard to retaliate with Blizzard or another follow up. Also, there is a 6 frame lag difference (I believe) between Nana and Popo, so it isn't uncommon to hit the shield of one and nail the other with the attack. Since FSmash has next to no lag, you're able to follow up with a punishment immediately.

lol. I hope this is a joke.

Nope, no humor here my friend.

 

[Ace Of Flames]

what would be MK's best move?

Shuttle Loop, Dmsash, F-air or F-tilt.