MetaKnight Infinite Dimensional Cape - hope you enjoy

[shadowlink3]

The irony of this situation is too great. The back room wants to ban something this hard to do that has questionable practicality immediately while something like the Ness infinite, something that a kitchen sponge could do, is allowed. Oh well...

dude i am sorry, you just won my best friend reward with that 1.

 

[GodotAA]

get a new controller

 

[MisterMoo]

MK is not gonna get banned over this... Anyone who thinks that is dumb...

ICs wern't banned back in Melee because of the Freeze Glitch....
Peach wasn't banned for Wall Bombing...
Neither was Puff for Rising pound...

And I personally don't see this AT getting banned due to the fact that no one can do this for more than 2 minutes AT MOST. If someone wants to prove me wrong, go ahead and do it...

get a new controller

ROFL!

 

[Fatmanonice]

And how exactly do you know what the back room wants to do?


You don't.

Yuna was talking about it earlier actually and I believe Mew2King was too. Aren't they part of the backroom or am I mistaken?

 

[Hylian]

Yuna was talking about it earlier actually and I believe Mew2King was too. Aren't they part of the backroom or am I mistaken?

Yuna is not in the backroom, and M2K hasn't had any input on it in the Backroom.


So again, you don't know what you are talking about. And just because one back room member says something, it doesn't mean all of us agree.

 

[samdaballer]

I could see someone breaking their C-stick doing this. Easily.

like break it off?

 

[Hylian]

like break it off?

No, just so that it doesn't work anymore. Someone already said they have done just that in this thread.

 

[acv]

like break it off?

it doesnt break off.it just stops working.at least that happened to me.just remember how expensive controllers are.

 

[deepseadiva]

As banned as this going to get, and as ****ty as it's going to be fighting MKs online from now on, this is actually REALLY cool.

Meta Knight for Banned Tier!

 

[acv]

As banned as this going to get, and as ****ty as it's going to be fighting MKs online from now on, this is actually REALLY cool.

Meta Knight for Banned Tier!

its not going to be banned its hard to keep it going for more than a few seconds.who would use it in wi-fi anyways?

 

[GodotAA]

Hylian is beastin' this thread right now...

 

[samdaballer]

Hylian, do you know approximately when we will know if this will be banned or not, like maybe end of this week or end of this month?

 

[acv]

Hylian is beastin' this thread right now...

QFT

10infinitedimenssionalcapes

 

[Fatmanonice]

Yuna is not in the backroom, and M2K hasn't had any input on it in the Backroom.


So again, you don't know what you are talking about. And just because one back room member says something, it doesn't mean all of us agree.

Figures... I was hoping that there was a good excuse for him acting so self righteous all the time but I guess not. Congrats, you just "pwn'd" a random person on the internet. *laughs even harder*

 

[GodotAA]

QFT

10infinitedimenssionalcapes

thats about 50 seconds of caping. stop stalling

 

[Yuna]

Stuff.

Not surprisingly, MookieRah agrees. Why? Because my reasons for banning this AT entirely are not arbitrary or made up on the spot. They're the same reasons employed for banning things in general. Any limit would be arbitrary and it's just too hard and too time- and manpower consuming to monitor.

What happens when someone says "Well, he abused it and went over the time limit!"? There was no one there with a stopwatch. Should the one who got abused still lose, even though the other person used the technique beyond the threshhold? And what if the one claiming a Meta went over the limit is lying? Should all claimants be treated as liars or truthiness players?

It's cool? It's fun? It's great? Fine, use it in friendlies.

Wasn't even an day and it already got banned. That's a shame.

It was banned before it was discovered. Because of the way it works, rules are already in place to ban any new discovery of this kind.

It's like they gave Meta Knight active camo and an over shield along with his maneuverability. He's a friggin' Ninjanaut only better because he can't be touched. He doesn't even need to do it constantly for it to be stalling. Just teleport for the "time limit" appear in some random location where it's not expected and reset. I'm surprised there's even debate on whether or not this should be banned.

Yeah, I can see strategies being devised for doing infinite running away against a lot of characters on certain stages using this.

And that would be considered excessive stalling. Der. It's getting banned. End of story...

How is it excessive stalling if you stay within the time limit? It's arbitrarily stalling because you're doing to stall? Then who makes that call? Who says "This is stalling now, not because of how long you do it but because of how you do it"? I mean, maybe he was just mindgaming, trying to get out of a sticky situation, whatever.

And it's not really different from Fox running away from you on Hyrule Temple (we didn't ban Fox running away, we just banned what allowed him to do that, namely Hyrule Temple, the same has to happen here).

You know what I say? I'm semi new here, and I want to know... If you ban it here, who's gonna ban it in real life? The IC chaingrab is banned in Texas, but not in other states. If this gets banned here, where else will it get banned.

If the SBR universally bans it, most tournaments hosted by SWF:ers will ban it. It's like how we banned Hyrule Temple and now most tournaments ban it.

I for one, am against banning this one. I do however understand Yuna is coming from. It's kind of obvious when its used for stalling purposes....Stopwatches aren't needed for this. There's a little rule that in this day and age we seem to have forgotten by the overloading of rules and regulations: Disqualifications.

So it's not tourney-legal if one of the TO's arbitrarily and subjectively decides it's stalling? So it's up to which TO is currently watching your game whether you can do it? Also, not all games have TOs present, so we'd either have to have tons of TOs (because there are so many Metas) to monitor each Meta match or there will be unmonitored matches where Metas can do this 'til he sees a TO approaching.

Bans must be easily enforced. No judgment call, you must be able to just look at something and go "It's obviously breaching rules".

10 seconds left, MK gets that extra 2% and proceeds to MIDCape as I call it, its obvious what he did, and he should thus be disqualified.

What if he says "I was trying to get out of a sticky situation!"? He does it for only 5 seconds, then releases it and does it again, because his opponent had, say, a grand-father turnip in their hands or something. "I was trying to mindgame him into dropping it!".

But in the same sense, 20 seconds left, DDD hits Pit off the side of FD, Pit flies under it to the other side only to be greeted by an Edgeguarding DDD. If Pit flies back to the other side of FD to try to get on the stage and finish his match, is he stalling? If that's the case, why not ban his wings?

Because he's vulnerable while doing this. Also, at many tournaments, going under the stage for the sake of going under it is classified as stalling and banned.

The thing is this is based off the judgement of the person using it. If it was used for stalling, which is obvious it was >__> Ban it. Until then, leave it alone.

Are you saying we shouldn't ban it 'til someone actually uses it to stall in a tournament? Because that's so not going to happen. If it needs to be banned, we ban it straight away since it's already banned (because it's stalling).

Has anyone noticed, due to the extreme difficulty to maintain, that this ought to be called the "extended" dimensional cape instead of infinite? Also, with the stalling arguement, nearly every character has some sort of tech that CAN potentially be used to stall gameplay (laser lock, chaingrabbing, infinates), but unless they're used exclusively for the purpose of stalling, there's really no problem. When everyone looks for anything remotely gamebreaking, everything (in a nutshell) will eventually break down into a game of pong, no variation, no advantages, no uniqueness, nada.

1) It can be infinite. Difficulty of performance is inconsequential.
2) Those techniques inflict damage. If you're chaingrabbing someone or locking someone, you're racking up their damage for an eventual KO. If you're holding down the Cape, you're just stalling the game. Or, I guess, "getting out of a tricky situation", but that's where the problem of "arbitrary limits and judgment calls" arise.
3) Those techniques have safety locks in place. "Once the opponent reaches X percent, you have to KO them". You can just take a look at the screen and see that they've gone past said % instead of having to use stopwatches. Not to mention that no one does them beyond the safety locks, anyway, since it's risky to risk them getting out of it instead of just KO:ing them outright.

And nobody answered my question of who goes by the smashboards ban rules yet :[

TOs who trust the SWF-rules and who are long-time members of SWF.

Ookay, so; Screw a tournament opponent, that's bad. Screw a casual opponent, that's ok?

Hypocrisy FTW >.>

All is fair in Casuals because there's nothing at stake (if there is, then it's a Moneymatch, Foot match, Gay Sex match, whatever). You'll still piss your opponents off, but if you do not agree beforehand on something, like, "SWF standard rules", then everything is fair game.

Nobody really cares about friendlies, anyway.

Stuff.

Not to mention that there are presedence for this ban (in other games). Sirlin specifically mentions that any glitch that removes one or both players from the playing field is banned. What does this do? Remove Meta-Knight from the playing field (albeit temporarily, until he stops doing it, but again, difficulty of policing).

In Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen, there's a glitch with Neji, Awakened Hinata and Tsunade where if you hit with certain parts of certain moves, you'll be rendered completely invincible (they can push you, but there's no Ringout in GNT). When this happens, you have to immediately move, or it's your loss. Same thing.

(And I'm sure there are many more examples, I'm just not some kind of Fighting Game Wiki)

Mookie Rah, I understand it, and I want to give a rebuttal, but honestly, this isn't that important to me. MK isn't my main or even in my Top 3. I just don't want this to get banned :/

For what arbitrary reason? "It's cool"?

I think it should be banned but I think it should be allowed at least as a star kill tech skillish display, as long as they retract the tech when the player dies.
(I know its hard to monitor this, but its just so cool lol)

While that sounds nice and all, it'd still come down to judgment calls. "Oh, he held it in for too long!", "No he didn't!". Easier to just ban it outright, even for stylish display (because it's not like it actually affects the meta-game whether Meta-knight can do it as a taunt, anyway). The only time it'd be legal, to prevent any kind of problem and controversy to arise, would be when his opponent is getting Star KO:ed during their very last stock.

how about we stop assuming this or that and just leave it alone and see how it effects the smash scene before declaring it something that it may or may not be

if it's something that greatly effects the scene, no one will have a problem with its ban

if it's something that doesn't effect the scene, no one will have a problem with its allowance

Because it's already banned. It's an infinite stall (can be used as such). Because of this, it has to be banned. Whenever a new infinite stall is discovered and we know exactly how it works, we can determine whether or not we have to ban it.

Sonic's Homing Stall isn't infinite or even a real stall, hence, it need not be banned. This leaves Meta-Knight invisible and invincible. It has to be banned. But wait, what happens to not using it as a stall? That's where "difficulty to police" steps in stomps all over it and auto-bans it as well.

All I was mentioning is the tendency for people to look for the easy way out when confronted with something; rather than blanket-ban a tech, try spending your energy into finding a rational solution instead of sinking to a half-*** & effortless one. People have spent countless hours on the forums doing nothing but *****ing about how something is "broken", "cheap", or "unfair", instead of growing a pair, and finding their own way to deal with it. This isn't just limited to Brawl, even gaming as a whole, heck, society, in a nutshell, works along similar lines, and it has the same tendency for chaos to ensue for the same reasons.

/end rant -.-

Have I or MookieRah done this? In fact, I've defended the use of infinites (for racking up damage). Why should I get blamed or even care about what stupid people are saying.

Well, I've seen over 50 people with join dates from 2007-2008 say really stupid things. Hence, all 2007-2008 joiners must be blamed for this stupidity and be auto-labeled as stupid! Same logic as "Well, there are some people who whine about everything being broken, hence anyone who at any times says something must be banned must be of the same school".

We have good reasons for banning this. Heck, we've even given you said reasons.

Honestly i agree with Quez. What if this turns out being like the custom combo thing desribed by sirlin? Its potentially possible that there is a counter or something that leaves meta helpless for a bit, turning it into a high risk high reward type move. Banning so early is premature in my opinion.

He's invincible... indefinitely. What possible helpless whatever could he face? Controller Canceling? If you think there's a window of opportunity, go stand in Mario Circuit. Wait' til the cars are about to drive by and perform it where they drive by. If you do not get hit by this continous hitbox, then he's not going to be vulnerable anytime soon.

Also, so what if there's a tiny window of vulnerability? It's blatantly overpowered, still. "Oh, there's this 3-frame window during which you can hit me... you just have to predict where I am since I'm invisible and if you whiff, I've got a free shot!".

Invincibility: Yes MK is invincible during this time. However with a time limit this shouldn't be too much of a problem, much like Ledge Stalling Correct? Invincible but you know you have a time limit.

Since when did Ledge Stalling have a time limit on it? Since when was it even banned?

Invisibility: Yes, MK is also invisible during this time. However, with both the time limit and the fact that you can see the camera shift in MKs moving direction, this shouldn't be a problem. Plus, it was also pointed out to me that u can "feel" MK go past you while he is doing this

Meta-Knight is tiny. You can't tell where he is simply by looking at the camera. Also, what if he just moves away from you? Are you supposed to chase after him and stick close to him, even though he can just let go at any time and hit you?

Time: Ahh the time problem. Well first it shouldn't be a problem to tell if someone is stalling.
HOWEVER, since you wanna go by the Approximate time, lets do that. I don't know who said we needed a stopwatch but you don't. You can just use the Match timer.

Oh yes, the match timer is sooooo reliable, especially when it comes to split-seconds. If the time limit is 3 seconds, I'll do it for 3.50 seconds... or maybe 3.02.

You won't need a TO for that.

"He stalled!" - "No I didn't!"

This is why we need a TO to monitor each Meta-match.

And it is not hard to look at the time and play the match. I tested this myself and you can see the time without a worry.

I'm so happy you can slow down time as there's no way to humanly see exactly when 3.00 seconds have elapsed.

This deserves an outright ban as the mods have said.

One mod. But that's just because the other mods are too busy. Trust me, if we brought in more mods, I'm sure the vast majority, if not all of them would agree.

Eh I don't know. Thats someone else's job to figure out. Maybe there is some glitch that lets them get grabbed out of it or something.

But to my main point, have any matches actually been played with this thing allowed? Does anyone actually KNOW how it affects games, or is this all just theorycrafting, as i suspect? At least play a few serious games and try to figure out a way around it before insta-banhammering it. They don't need to be tourny games, but test it first, and with the expectation that there is a way around it.

We haven't banned it yet. Of course there will be testing before it's banned. We're just saying, at this writing moment, with all we know about it, it will be banned.

If something to make it non-stupid broken is discovered in testing, then we'll leave it in. If not, then it'll have to be banned, we don't care about "Well, there might be a solution to this found four years down the road from now". By that time, Meta-Knight will have won almost every single tournament for four years time.

If a solution is found down the road, then it'll be unbanned. Until such time, because of the nature of the AT, it has to be banned. There's presedence for this.

Mookie, looking at the match timer for a couple secs doesnt require your full attention.
You can see the numbers through your peripheral vision well enough. Plus remember they
cannot attack you until they reappear. so you can shield or dodge during the duration of the move if you wish. Using the match timer is not difficult.

What if I do it for 3.06 seconds? Also, this will still require a TO at every Meta-match.

Also, yes, it's totally fair to force your opponent to have to predict when you're going to reappear and hit them. It's also fair to force them to randomly shield and diminish their shield. It's also fair to force them to through out random spotdodges, after which they'll be vulnerable (no, you cannot shield or spotdodge or roll from frame 1 after a spotdodge or a roll).

If you read my earlier posts I made a reference to other potential AT's like laserlocking, infinites, & chaingrabs, which, to the best of my knowledge, burns time, renders you invincible; from the perspective that you cannot be attacked for the duration, and can be used for stalling purposes. If you're going ballistic about this, at least take a second look at what I've mentioned here before banning a tech that HAS NOT even been used in competitive play yet.

So do combos. Also, my response to this is above. This AT wouldn't be banned outright if it wasn't just so **** stupid to monitor.

although i got to admit it was a nice way to stay away from your opponent while he got the respawn invincibility frames.

Just to clarify things, does this seem fair to you?

Herein lies my point, this is really nothing more than a dimensional cape with extended (and restricted to the ground) distance. It is really that impossible to keep it going for 1 second, let alone 5 seconds.

Just because you can't do it...

MookieRah you should stop telling every1's arguments are 'poor' look at them and make a argument for theirs that will tell them off. not just tell them its a poor argument

But they are poor arguments. Of course, I just gave up reasons for why they're poor, as well. Meanwhile, none of the arguments from "our" side have been refuted (as usual), yet people go on, ignoring our arguments or try to circumvent them with a half-***** solution.

Stuff.

"We do not have infinite TOs to keep track of all Meta-matches."

All time limits would be arbitrary and why is it not OK to go past 4 seconds (even though the limit is 3) but OK to go from anywhere between 3.01 to 3.99 seconds? Also, what's to keep me from doing this to infinite stall, anyway? I just hit you with something and then run away to the other side of the stage while completely invincible from it. Even if I'm behind in percentage, if I'm ahead in stock, I can win by simply constantly running away even if you're Fox and hit me with lasers whenever I appear.

You said so yourself, you can get from one side of FD to the other in only 1.5 seconds.

Also, how many high level Brawl matches have you seen that end below the 3-minute mark?

What if we just only allow someone to do it like, once per game? and they have to stop after 5 seconds. There can be gray area, cuz the official will be watching. I wouldn't think you would need a stopwatch, just don't allow it for more than 5 seconds on the in-game clock, and only allow it once per game.

EDIT: hooray 100 posts!

But what I do it stealthily and do it more than once when someone's not watching? What if I stealthily do it for 0.3 seconds every single time? Also, five seconds?!

Also, 5 seconds left on the match clock, your whatever vs. my Meta-Knight. I'm 2% ahead, I perform it. What now? Another arbitrary rule? "No use of this technique while there's only 5 seconds left on the clock"? What if I do it with only 10 seconds left, do it for 5 seconds, grab the ledge and then proceed to jump off the stage and use my jumps to stall the rest of the match away?

And so it goes on.

I love, love, LOVE the MASSIVE amount of irony and hypocrisy coming from some people in this thread, first of all.

<snip>

Edit: My harmless opinion that will get me yelled at: It looks like some people are throwing up some bad excuses for trying to ban something they deem 'too good.'

I'd just like to point out the excessive irony in it being you saying these things. Anyway, the answer to all of your arguments have already been written in this very same post.

It's funny how all the new guys to the forums are all saying we should keep it while barely giving any details as to how to go around enforcing whatsoever and then you have the backroom people and Yuna, trying to make sense of things, even pulling some stuff from competitive game writers such as Sirlin to help backup their arguments.

Woot?! Someone who knows the difference between the BR and SBR!

finally made it through all the posts and I'm surprised that nobody mentioned this:

if someone does this to you, just pause and unpause to mess up their timing. Now they can use it to get around or whatnot, but the opponent wouldn't allow a stall to happen.

Problem solved. (just don't have pause disabled)

*edit* this is Mankosuki btw

Pausing is banned for this very reason (to prevent you from pausing to mess up someone's timing, rhytm, whatever).

First, let me just state that in my opinion, this move is unbelievably broken and 'too good' for MK and should warrant an outright ban under my standards (apparently not the thousands of different conflicting standards I've been told before). I'm just arguing that saying it could lead to stalling is not a good reason to ban it.

<snip>

With all that said, I fully support you and Yuna on trying to get this banned. I think it will significantly alter tournament gameplay and make MK nigh-unbeatable. However, the 'it can be used for stalling!' argument is silly, for the reasons I made in both these posts.

You keep claiming we've given you conflicting reasons. We haven't. Most people agree that we haven't. The fact that early on, we gave you incomplete reasons and then fleshed them out when called on it does not mean they conflict.

I and MookieRah have not given you conflicting anythings. You claiming you'rea 6 foot NBA player won't make it so. You repeatedly claiming we've given you confliction reasons (even though you remain silent when called to provide us with quotes for this) does not make it so either.

The funny thing is, I was told by Yuna that you don't need to see whether they do. The thread was just a massive clusterf*ck from both sides, and I'll take full responsibility for mine.

See whether they do what?

I don't want people to judge me through that thread, even though I know some people will. If you look at some of my posts, I (sometimes) say smart things .

Too bad you were also largely offensive, used expletives, personal insults and very misinformed about a lot of things. It doesn't really matter if you say something in a smart way if what you're saying isn't smart or just plain wrong.

I don't think its accurate enough to effectively use as an attack, now that everyone knows not to be on the lowest level of the stage during an MK infinity. Also, the camera zoom makes it pretty clear where MK is during his invisibility.

He moves really fast. Even if you can see him, you can't catch up to him. This is a death sentence to any character who's "too slow" since there's absolutely no window of opportunity except for when he reappears so you have to be faster than him. With "normal" running away on stages not banned because of it, you still have to leave yourself open at all times since you're not invincible.

It's not my call and it's not your call. No offense to you or MookieRah or anyone, but until the tech actually does overrun competitive Brawl, it shouldn't be banned. I just hope that the SBroomers give it a chance, like everything else.

Oh yeah, every time a new Infinite Stall is discovered and even after extensive testing, we have to allow it in tournaments, for people to win with it for at least X amount of [arbitrary time limit] before we deem it completely broken and ban it!

Rofl. Your still limited to the distance that the move can go normally correct? The only difference is how long you disappear for?

No.

As a TO, I'm going to leave this be until someone can prove to me that it can be done for more than a minute without affecting your gameplay in horrid ways afterwards.

Wait, what?

"Oh, bad players won't be able to do it for long periods of time without playing badly afterwards". Umm... yah...

Also, why allow it to be done for 1 minute? 1 minute left on the timer, I'd ahead by 2%, I perform it, I win.

Hey Shadow throw this in the first post if you want

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y66F3whuqy0

It's a video of my controller :D


i was looking at the picture on the camera so i kill myself a few times

We have this new nifty thing called customized controller settings.

Does this really need to be banned though? Think about it, Metaknight has a decent amount of frames where he's vulnerable as he comes out to attack. In tournament matches, players use names, meaning that you'll still be able to see where he is. What's more, due to how physically demanding it is, I can't really see it being used to stall. And if it is used to stall, then it would be blindingly obvious like Jigglypuff's rising pound.

Do name tags stay with Meta-Knight when he disappears? Also, if they do, why wouldn't smart Metas not use nametags? It's like how Zeldas didn't use them in Melee

Also, we still have the "if they're slower than Meta"-problem.

IMO, if someone can do that for 8 minutes, they deserve to win....

No.

I figured as much but I think people are blowing it out of proportion none-the-less. Honestly, the people freaking out about the possibility of there being someone out there that can actually do this for more than a minute at a time is phenomenally funny to me. I will say one thing though, this makes for a unbelievably good approach. I'm going to test this online later tonight to see if this really is the case or if I'm giving this technique more credit then it deserves.

Yet another reason to ban it. An approach where you're invincible? You can just do it as an approach and then retreat. Your opponent will either have left themselves completely open, allowing you to mixup with actually attacking them out of it or they will have had to shield, diminishing their shield, or roll or spotdodge, leaving themselves open still.

Also, still invincible.

And like...a smart player could even use this to beat a stupid metaknight. Say for instance you see Metaknight go invisible, then quickly run to the edge of the stage and hold down A (rapid jab) that Metaknight is not going to be able to attack you without getting hit. So they'll stall...and then the adjudicator will go "HAH! PWNED!" and hit them over the head with a massive squeaky b& hammer.

Who the hell would go through their opponent to grab the ledge? If I'm closer than you to the edge, you're not making it there in time, in most cases. Or I could just, you know, teleport behind you when you start rapid A:ing.

This reminds me of when people first found out about laser-locking.

Funny, because no one credible called for it to be banned unless used for excessive stalling. And it's really easy to monitor that.

This tech is VERY hard. Like...I can JC shines in melee easier then I can do this. Hitting up on the C-stick that fast REALLY makes your finger hurt. A LOT. I would LOVE to see someone do this for over a minute.

Has anyone actually tried doing it with a button other than the C-stick? Set it to L, R, X or Y.

This is REALLY hard. Try it. People will NOT be able to stall with this. IF they can...god I would love to see it haha.

What makes you think you have to be able to do it for more than 1 minute to stall? Stalling with small increments is still stalling if you're invicble during that time and repeat the process without giving the opponent the chance to hit you.

The irony of this situation is too great. The back room wants to ban something this hard to do that has questionable practicality immediately while something like the Ness infinite, something that a kitchen sponge could do, is allowed. Oh well...

This is not like the Ness infinite. And I'm sick and tired of telling people why the Ness infinite shouldn't be banned and you most probably have already seen my arguments either given by myself, MookieRah or someone else, yet chose to ignore them.

And I personally don't see this AT getting banned due to the fact that no one can do this for more than 2 minutes AT MOST. If someone wants to prove me wrong, go ahead and do it...

ROFL!

2 minutes left on the match timer, I do it for 2 minutes, I win. Yay me.

Figures... I was hoping that there was a good excuse for him acting so self righteous all the time but I guess not. Congrats, you just "pwn'd" a random person on the internet. *laughs even harder*

Because I use facts in my debates and, surprise, surprise, the vast majority of the times, unless it's an obvious call for opinion or judgment (in which case I do not argue as fiercely as in cases where I can prove my case with actual facts), I'm right.

People need to stop writing useless posts in this thread. It went from 21 posts to 23 while I was replying to it and the majority of the posts contributed absolutely nothing (as in, they didn't even have arguments in them, just random BS like "I concurr!" and "We should ban Meta/No we shouldn't!").

 

[GodotAA]

omfg huge post let me read it ><

 

[deepseadiva]

its not going to be banned its hard to keep it going for more than a few seconds.who would use it in wi-fi anyways?

Lulz. You actually. We played today, though I was Peach and I just daintily floated over it. It's gonna be banned - easy.

I got so tired of your Dedede though.

Edit: Ultra lulz at Yuna's post. The whole page actually splits the background.

 

[acv]

Not surprisingly, MookieRah agrees. Why? Because my reasons for banning this AT entirely are not arbitrary or made up on the spot. They're the same reasons employed for banning things in general. Any limit would be arbitrary and it's just too hard and too time- and manpower consuming to monitor.

What happens when someone says "Well, he abused it and went over the time limit!"? There was no one there with a stopwatch. Should the one who got abused still lose, even though the other person used the technique beyond the threshhold? And what if the one claiming a Meta went over the limit is lying? Should all claimants be treated as liars or truthiness players?

It's cool? It's fun? It's great? Fine, use it in friendlies.


It was banned before it was discovered. Because of the way it works, rules are already in place to ban any new discovery of this kind.


Yeah, I can see strategies being devised for doing infinite running away against a lot of characters on certain stages using this.


How is it excessive stalling if you stay within the time limit? It's arbitrarily stalling because you're doing to stall? Then who makes that call? Who says "This is stalling now, not because of how long you do it but because of how you do it"? I mean, maybe he was just mindgaming, trying to get out of a sticky situation, whatever.

And it's not really different from Fox running away from you on Hyrule Temple (we didn't ban Fox running away, we just banned what allowed him to do that, namely Hyrule Temple, the same has to happen here).


If the SBR universally bans it, most tournaments hosted by SWF:ers will ban it. It's like how we banned Hyrule Temple and now most tournaments ban it.


So it's not tourney-legal if one of the TO's arbitrarily and subjectively decides it's stalling? So it's up to which TO is currently watching your game whether you can do it? Also, not all games have TOs present, so we'd either have to have tons of TOs (because there are so many Metas) to monitor each Meta match or there will be unmonitored matches where Metas can do this 'til he sees a TO approaching.

Bans must be easily enforced. No judgment call, you must be able to just look at something and go "It's obviously breaching rules".


What if he says "I was trying to get out of a sticky situation!"? He does it for only 5 seconds, then releases it and does it again, because his opponent had, say, a grand-father turnip in their hands or something. "I was trying to mindgame him into dropping it!".


Because he's vulnerable while doing this. Also, at many tournaments, going under the stage for the sake of going under it is classified as stalling and banned.


Are you saying we shouldn't ban it 'til someone actually uses it to stall in a tournament? Because that's so not going to happen. If it needs to be banned, we ban it straight away since it's already banned (because it's stalling).


1) It can be infinite. Difficulty of performance is inconsequential.
2) Those techniques inflict damage. If you're chaingrabbing someone or locking someone, you're racking up their damage for an eventual KO. If you're holding down the Cape, you're just stalling the game. Or, I guess, "getting out of a tricky situation", but that's where the problem of "arbitrary limits and judgment calls" arise.
3) Those techniques have safety locks in place. "Once the opponent reaches X percent, you have to KO them". You can just take a look at the screen and see that they've gone past said % instead of having to use stopwatches. Not to mention that no one does them beyond the safety locks, anyway, since it's risky to risk them getting out of it instead of just KO:ing them outright.


TOs who trust the SWF-rules and who are long-time members of SWF.


All is fair in Casuals because there's nothing at stake (if there is, then it's a Moneymatch, Foot match, Gay Sex match, whatever). You'll still piss your opponents off, but if you do not agree beforehand on something, like, "SWF standard rules", then everything is fair game.

Nobody really cares about friendlies, anyway.


Not to mention that there are presedence for this ban (in other games). Sirlin specifically mentions that any glitch that removes one or both players from the playing field is banned. What does this do? Remove Meta-Knight from the playing field (albeit temporarily, until he stops doing it, but again, difficulty of policing).

In Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen, there's a glitch with Neji, Awakened Hinata and Tsunade where if you hit with certain parts of certain moves, you'll be rendered completely invincible (they can push you, but there's no Ringout in GNT). When this happens, you have to immediately move, or it's your loss. Same thing.

(And I'm sure there are many more examples, I'm just not some kind of Fighting Game Wiki)


For what arbitrary reason? "It's cool"?


While that sounds nice and all, it'd still come down to judgment calls. "Oh, he held it in for too long!", "No he didn't!". Easier to just ban it outright, even for stylish display (because it's not like it actually affects the meta-game whether Meta-knight can do it as a taunt, anyway). The only time it'd be legal, to prevent any kind of problem and controversy to arise, would be when his opponent is getting Star KO:ed during their very last stock.


Because it's already banned. It's an infinite stall (can be used as such). Because of this, it has to be banned. Whenever a new infinite stall is discovered and we know exactly how it works, we can determine whether or not we have to ban it.

Sonic's Homing Stall isn't infinite or even a real stall, hence, it need not be banned. This leaves Meta-Knight invisible and invincible. It has to be banned. But wait, what happens to not using it as a stall? That's where "difficulty to police" steps in stomps all over it and auto-bans it as well.


Have I or MookieRah done this? In fact, I've defended the use of infinites (for racking up damage). Why should I get blamed or even care about what stupid people are saying.

Well, I've seen over 50 people with join dates from 2007-2008 say really stupid things. Hence, all 2007-2008 joiners must be blamed for this stupidity and be auto-labeled as stupid! Same logic as "Well, there are some people who whine about everything being broken, hence anyone who at any times says something must be banned must be of the same school".

We have good reasons for banning this. Heck, we've even given you said reasons.


He's invincible... indefinitely. What possible helpless whatever could he face? Controller Canceling? If you think there's a window of opportunity, go stand in Mario Circuit. Wait' til the cars are about to drive by and perform it where they drive by. If you do not get hit by this continous hitbox, then he's not going to be vulnerable anytime soon.

Also, so what if there's a tiny window of vulnerability? It's blatantly overpowered, still. "Oh, there's this 3-frame window during which you can hit me... you just have to predict where I am since I'm invisible and if you whiff, I've got a free shot!".


Since when did Ledge Stalling have a time limit on it? Since when was it even banned?


Meta-Knight is tiny. You can't tell where he is simply by looking at the camera. Also, what if he just moves away from you? Are you supposed to chase after him and stick close to him, even though he can just let go at any time and hit you?


Oh yes, the match timer is sooooo reliable, especially when it comes to split-seconds. If the time limit is 3 seconds, I'll do it for 3.50 seconds... or maybe 3.02.


"He stalled!" - "No I didn't!"

This is why we need a TO to monitor each Meta-match.


I'm so happy you can slow down time as there's no way to humanly see exactly when 3.00 seconds have elapsed.


One mod. But that's just because the other mods are too busy. Trust me, if we brought in more mods, I'm sure the vast majority, if not all of them would agree.


We haven't banned it yet. Of course there will be testing before it's banned. We're just saying, at this writing moment, with all we know about it, it will be banned.

If something to make it non-stupid broken is discovered in testing, then we'll leave it in. If not, then it'll have to be banned, we don't care about "Well, there might be a solution to this found four years down the road from now". By that time, Meta-Knight will have won almost every single tournament for four years time.

If a solution is found down the road, then it'll be unbanned. Until such time, because of the nature of the AT, it has to be banned. There's presedence for this.


What if I do it for 3.06 seconds? Also, this will still require a TO at every Meta-match.

Also, yes, it's totally fair to force your opponent to have to predict when you're going to reappear and hit them. It's also fair to force them to randomly shield and diminish their shield. It's also fair to force them to through out random spotdodges, after which they'll be vulnerable (no, you cannot shield or spotdodge or roll from frame 1 after a spotdodge or a roll).


So do combos. Also, my response to this is above. This AT wouldn't be banned outright if it wasn't just so **** stupid to monitor.


Just to clarify things, does this seem fair to you?


Just because you can't do it...


But they are poor arguments. Of course, I just gave up reasons for why they're poor, as well. Meanwhile, none of the arguments from "our" side have been refuted (as usual), yet people go on, ignoring our arguments or try to circumvent them with a half-***** solution.


"We do not have infinite TOs to keep track of all Meta-matches."

All time limits would be arbitrary and why is it not OK to go past 4 seconds (even though the limit is 3) but OK to go from anywhere between 3.01 to 3.99 seconds? Also, what's to keep me from doing this to infinite stall, anyway? I just hit you with something and then run away to the other side of the stage while completely invincible from it. Even if I'm behind in percentage, if I'm ahead in stock, I can win by simply constantly running away even if you're Fox and hit me with lasers whenever I appear.

You said so yourself, you can get from one side of FD to the other in only 1.5 seconds.

Also, how many high level Brawl matches have you seen that end below the 3-minute mark?


But what I do it stealthily and do it more than once when someone's not watching? What if I stealthily do it for 0.3 seconds every single time? Also, five seconds?!

Also, 5 seconds left on the match clock, your whatever vs. my Meta-Knight. I'm 2% ahead, I perform it. What now? Another arbitrary rule? "No use of this technique while there's only 5 seconds left on the clock"? What if I do it with only 10 seconds left, do it for 5 seconds, grab the ledge and then proceed to jump off the stage and use my jumps to stall the rest of the match away?

And so it goes on.


I'd just like to point out the excessive irony in it being you saying these things. Anyway, the answer to all of your arguments have already been written in this very same post.


Woot?! Someone who knows the difference between the BR and SBR!


Pausing is banned for this very reason (to prevent you from pausing to mess up someone's timing, rhytm, whatever).


You keep claiming we've given you conflicting reasons. We haven't. Most people agree that we haven't. The fact that early on, we gave you incomplete reasons and then fleshed them out when called on it does not mean they conflict.

I and MookieRah have not given you conflicting anythings. You claiming you'rea 6 foot NBA player won't make it so. You repeatedly claiming we've given you confliction reasons (even though you remain silent when called to provide us with quotes for this) does not make it so either.


See whether they do what?


Too bad you were also largely offensive, used expletives, personal insults and very misinformed about a lot of things. It doesn't really matter if you say something in a smart way if what you're saying isn't smart or just plain wrong.


He moves really fast. Even if you can see him, you can't catch up to him. This is a death sentence to any character who's "too slow" since there's absolutely no window of opportunity except for when he reappears so you have to be faster than him. With "normal" running away on stages not banned because of it, you still have to leave yourself open at all times since you're not invincible.


Oh yeah, every time a new Infinite Stall is discovered and even after extensive testing, we have to allow it in tournaments, for people to win with it for at least X amount of [arbitrary time limit] before we deem it completely broken and ban it!


No.


Wait, what?

"Oh, bad players won't be able to do it for long periods of time without playing badly afterwards". Umm... yah...

Also, why allow it to be done for 1 minute? 1 minute left on the timer, I'd ahead by 2%, I perform it, I win.


We have this new nifty thing called customized controller settings.


Do name tags stay with Meta-Knight when he disappears? Also, if they do, why wouldn't smart Metas not use nametags? It's like how Zeldas didn't use them in Melee

Also, we still have the "if they're slower than Meta"-problem.


No.


Yet another reason to ban it. An approach where you're invincible? You can just do it as an approach and then retreat. Your opponent will either have left themselves completely open, allowing you to mixup with actually attacking them out of it or they will have had to shield, diminishing their shield, or roll or spotdodge, leaving themselves open still.

Also, still invincible.


Who the hell would go through their opponent to grab the ledge? If I'm closer than you to the edge, you're not making it there in time, in most cases. Or I could just, you know, teleport behind you when you start rapid A:ing.


Funny, because no one credible called for it to be banned unless used for excessive stalling. And it's really easy to monitor that.


Has anyone actually tried doing it with a button other than the C-stick? Set it to L, R, X or Y.


What makes you think you have to be able to do it for more than 1 minute to stall? Stalling with small increments is still stalling if you're invicble during that time and repeat the process without giving the opponent the chance to hit you.


This is not like the Ness infinite. And I'm sick and tired of telling people why the Ness infinite shouldn't be banned and you most probably have already seen my arguments either given by myself, MookieRah or someone else, yet chose to ignore them.


2 minutes left on the match timer, I do it for 2 minutes, I win. Yay me.


Because I use facts in my debates and, surprise, surprise, the vast majority of the times, unless it's an obvious call for opinion or judgment (in which case I do not argue as fiercely as in cases where I can prove my case with actual facts), I'm right.

People need to stop writing useless posts in this thread. It went from 21 posts to 23 while I was replying to it and the majority of the posts contributed absolutely nothing (as in, they didn't even have arguments in them, just random BS like "I concurr!" and "We should ban Meta/No we shouldn't!").

you can not infinite stall with this therefore it shouldnt be banned.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I'll bet there are plenty of places where Metaknight can't even hit you. Can you just camp on the ledge or something? And what about stages like Battlefield? Metaknight has absolutely no reason to use this technique at ground level when you're on the top platform. That's clearly just stalling.

 

[Hylian]

You know Yuna, there really isn't a point in quoting every single person just to say the same thing over and over >_>.

And how hard something is definitely plays a factor into considering if it should be banned or not. In melee, if you JC shine frame perfect, then you cannot be hit or grabbed out of it. All hits would clank, and grabs would just be shined. We didn't ban this, because well..it isn't really possible.


I don't think it is really possible to do this consistently for over a minute. You might pull it off for a minute once every 30 trys or something, but otherwise you are just leaving yourself open a lot >_>.


Now, don't get me wrong, I didn't think about changing the buttons to something else. I am going to go try that right now. If that makes it so I can do it easily then I will probably change my stance. Thanks for pointing that out.


I'm off to try it with other buttons >_>.

 

[Yuna]

you can not infinite stall with this therefore it shouldnt be banned.

1) Do not quote a huge post to reply with a 1-liner.
2) Who says you cannot? Has anyone actually tried setting other buttons to do this and see if it works?
3) It's enough if you can do it for 30 seconds because you can just stop doing it and then repeat. We don't allow Jigglypuffs to Infinite Pound for 30 seconds, land, and repeat the process.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Good lord, was it really nessecary to quote that entire post? O_o' I'd also ask if it was nessecary to respond to over a dozen posts not directly responding to someone but... you know... (Big Brother's watching.)

Anyways, has anyone tried this with any other button configurations yet? Someone mentioned that this was consideribly easier to do when you set the shoulder buttons on the Gamecube controller to attack but I didn't get any results.

 

[Yuna]

You know Yuna, there really isn't a point in quoting every single person just to say the same thing over and over >_>.

But it wasn't the same thing over and over. Most of the time, I added things as well. Whenever I could only repeat myself, I said "See above".

And how hard something is definitely plays a factor into considering if it should be banned or not. In melee, if you JC shine frame perfect, then you cannot be hit or grabbed out of it. All hits would clank, and grabs would just be shined. We didn't ban this, because well..it isn't really possible.

I forgot to, for once, add "... if it's humanly possible to learn".

I don't think it is really possible to do this consistently for over a minute. You might pull it off for a minute once every 30 trys or something, but otherwise you are just leaving yourself open a lot >_>.

Um, yeah, and we should allow it for 1 minute because? Or even 30 seconds.

Now, don't get me wrong, I didn't think about changing the buttons to something else. I am going to go try that right now. If that makes it so I can do it easily then I will probably change my stance. Thanks for pointing that out.

Actually, I was not the first to do this. The other person was just thouroughly ignored. Even I, with my skimming of most posts unless they catch my fancy, however, managed to pick it up. People just need to learn how to read forums better and more efficiently.

 

[CryoStasis]

1) Do not quote a huge post to reply with a 1-liner.
2) Who says you cannot? Has anyone actually tried setting other buttons to do this and see if it works?
3) It's enough if you can do it for 30 seconds because you can just stop doing it and then repeat. We don't allow Jigglypuffs to Infinite Pound for 30 seconds, land, and repeat the process.

Funny you say that Yuna because i think you can figure out if the MK does it for 30 secs u dont need a timer to kno that

 

[Hylian]

Ok, so I just went to test it out.


Guess what? You can't set any other button to do what the C-stick does >_>. This means the only way we can do this is hitting the c-stick up as fast as possible.


So my stance doesn't change.

 

[Yuna]

Funny you say that Yuna because i think you can figure out if the MK does it for 30 secs u dont need a timer to kno that

Refer back to my previous posts on how it's too hard and time- and manpower consuming to police it with smaller increments with an arbitrary time limit in place, please.

Do not take someone's argument out of context and try to use it against them when they're already provided a valid argument for the context (more than once). This is bad debating skills and thouroughly frowned upon.

Ok, so I just went to test it out.


Guess what? You can't set any other button to do what the C-stick does >_>. This means the only way we can do this is hitting the c-stick up as fast as possible.


So my stance doesn't change.

My stance still stands.

1 minute only? Fine, I'll do it for 1 minute, rest for a bit and then do it again. 30 seconds only? Same diff.

1 minute/30 seconds left on the timer and I'm ahead? I just won. There's nothing you can do to win unless I screw up.

So then we have to limit it with an arbitrary time limit, where "He said, he said", lack of TOs, judgment calls and difficulty to gauge time will make it just that much easier and efficient from a TO's point of view to just outright ban it.

It's not like with wallbombing where you could count the wall-bombs. In this case, you need a stopwatch and even then it's up to human reaction time (like the TO's gonna be able to start the timer at the start of every Down B). And who's to say the TO can't, when they just dislike someone, claim they overstepped the time limit when they didn't? He's the only one with a stop watch.

So many problems, one simple solution.

 

[acv]

1) Do not quote a huge post to reply with a 1-liner.
2) Who says you cannot? Has anyone actually tried setting other buttons to do this and see if it works?
3) It's enough if you can do it for 30 seconds because you can just stop doing it and then repeat. We don't allow Jigglypuffs to Infinite Pound for 30 seconds, land, and repeat the process.

1)i have tried setting other button configurations.none worked better for me.

2)you cannot stop doing it and then repeat.your fingers get tired.

can you run a mile,stop then run another mile infinitely?i am pretty sure you cant.

 

[CryoStasis]

Yuna Just think about it this way:

If he does it for 30 secs its obviously stalling

If he does it for 15 secs his hand will be hurting

If he can do it in a Heated tourney battle without messin up for more than ten secs while still ending up in the EXACT spot he wanted to be at while you can follow him by tag/camera and still not get hit at the end of it, then he can keep it.
It is jus too difficult to perform and has too much risk to use in a tourney match for more than 5 secs

 

[deepseadiva]

1)i have tried setting other button configurations.none worked better for me.

2)you cannot stop doing it and then repeat.your fingers get tired.

can you run a mile,stop then run another mile infinitely?i am pretty sure you cant.

You actually performed it a number of times during our match today. So yes, yes you can.

 

[acv]

You actually performed it a number of times during our match today. So yes, yes you can.

did you see me do it for more than 10 seconds?

 

[Yuna]

1)i have tried setting other button configurations.none worked better for me.

2)you cannot stop doing it and then repeat.your fingers get tired.

can you run a mile,stop then run another mile infinitely?i am pretty sure you cant.

Wait for more than 5 seconds before you repeat. Also, allowing a stall where you're invincible for 30 seconds - 1 minutes is stupid.

Yuna Just think about it this way:

If he does it for 30 secs its obviously stalling

If he does it for 15 secs his hand will be hurting

If he can do it in a Heated tourney battle without messin up for more than ten secs while still ending up in the EXACT spot he wanted to be at while you can follow him by tag/camera and still not get hit at the end of it, then he can keep it.
It is jus too difficult to perform and has too much risk to use in a tourney match for more than 5 secs

It's humanly possible to do this for 30 seconds, at the very least. We've apparently established that. So if you're ahead with 30 seconds left on the timer, no matter where you are on the stage and no matter where your opponent is, you can perform the stall and win with it. There's nothing to stop you from doing it save for a mistake in timing.

Fair? Not broken? Not game breaking? Meta-Knight doesn't even have to do it for the entire match. All he has to do is get a lead and then do it for 30 seconds, get to a safe spot or quasi-safe spot (or if he's facing someone who can't even punish him well, he doesn't even have to worry about that), release it, go about playing like normal and then repeat the process once he's able to.

An 8 minute match where 2 of those 8 minutes were stalled and Meta-Knight was entirely invincible during it? Yah... we didn't allow Fox to stop running away on Hyrule Temple after 30 seconds and then rinse and repeat. We just banned it outright (the stage that allows for such a tactic).

 

[GodotAA]

its easy to rinse and repeat. i doubt many people can do this for 30 seconds continuously but INSTEAD they will just do it one after another causing the same effect.


as much as i would want to use it to mind game, i can see it getting banned

 

[Hylian]

Refer back to my previous posts on how it's too hard and time- and manpower consuming to police it with smaller increments with an arbitrary time limit in place, please.

Do not take someone's argument out of context and try to use it against them when they're already provided a valid argument for the context (more than once). This is bad debating skills and thouroughly frowned upon.


My stance still stands.

1 minute only? Fine, I'll do it for 1 minute, rest for a bit and then do it again. 30 seconds only? Same diff.

1 minute/30 seconds left on the timer and I'm ahead? I just won. There's nothing you can do to win unless I screw up.

So then we have to limit it with an arbitrary time limit, where "He said, he said", lack of TOs, judgment calls and difficulty to gauge time will make it just that much easier and efficient from a TO's point of view to just outright ban it.

It's not like with wallbombing where you could count the wall-bombs. In this case, you need a stopwatch and even then it's up to human reaction time (like the TO's gonna be able to start the timer at the start of every Down B). And who's to say the TO can't, when they just dislike someone, claim they overstepped the time limit when they didn't? He's the only one with a stop watch.

So many problems, one simple solution.

Have you actually tried this? I am a very technical player. I can do over 10 JC shines in melee consistantly almost every time I try. My record is around 25. I can double reverse waveshine, I have very fast fingers and a lot of stamina. I am lucky to do this for over 10 seconds. My fingers just start hurting to much. I don't think someone COULD do it for 30 seconds to a minute consistently.

I honestly think that it is so hard that someone could practice this for an hour and MAYBE get around 20-30 seconds ONCE and then not be able to do it that long again for another 30 trys. I am arguing that this is too hard to do consistently. I don't think anyone can do this for more then 10 seconds every time. There is a lot of lag coming out of the move, and you will just get hit a lot.

If anyones fingers are durable enough to do this to the point that they could stall with it then I would be VERY impressed. More impressed then someone doing 50 JC shines in a row, because this is that hard. PLEASE go try it. I have practiced it for an hour...

If you can show me someone could possible stall with it..then I would agree. But I just don't see it being possible. Our fingers cannot handle that .

 

[Fatmanonice]

Funny you say that Yuna because i think you can figure out if the MK does it for 30 secs u dont need a timer to kno that

Not to mention it'd be pretty easy to not only see but also hear. *clickclickclickclickclickclick* It sounds like I'm pounding buttons on a keyboard when I'm doing it.

 

[deepseadiva]

did you see me do it for more than 10 seconds?

My Peach float dropped and I had to go to the edge. Either way, you held it for quite awhile.

 

[GodotAA]

i actually now find this thread quite humorous

 

[Psymon]

Shadowlink....amazing find =D. I haven't seen this until readin g this thread so considering you provided us with an explanation and video evidence, my credit goes to you. Thanks! Psy.

 

[acv]

My Peach float dropped and I had to go to the edge. Either way, you held it for quite awhile.

i didnt hold it long enough to stall the match.more than 5 seconds maybe, yet it didnt make a difference since i used it to get away not to stall.

 

[Yuna]

Have you actually tried this? I am a very technical player. I can do over 10 JC shines in melee consistantly almost every time I try. My record is around 25. I can double reverse waveshine, I have very fast fingers and a lot of stamina. I am lucky to do this for over 10 seconds. My fingers just start hurting to much. I don't think someone COULD do it for 30 seconds to a minute consistently

Just because you were able to do one thing doesn't mean you're automatically able to do another thing.

I honestly think that it is so hard that someone could practice this for an hour and MAYBE get around 20-30 seconds ONCE and then not be able to do it that long again for another 30 trys. I am arguing that this is too hard to do consistently. I don't think anyone can do this for more then 10 seconds every time. There is a lot of lag coming out of the move, and you will just get hit a lot.

1) Why would anyone practice it for just an hour? They'd practice it for months, mastering it as far as humanly possible.
2) Who told you to reappear right next to your opponent, anyway? Who told you to do this against the fastest characters in the game?

If you can show me someone could possible stall with it..then I would agree. But I just don't see it being possible. Our fingers cannot handle that .

10 seconds? Fine, I'll teleport around the stage, back and forth. If you're among the slower half of the cast and lack a good projectile, there's no possible way to hit me. Heck, even if you do have a projectile, unless it's lethal (and fast), it won't matter if I'm ahead in stock count.

Invincible stalling is broken even if it's only for 10 seconds.

Not to mention it'd be pretty easy to not only see but also hear. *clickclickclickclickclickclick* It sounds like I'm pounding buttons on a keyboard when I'm doing it.

No one ever said it's hard to tell someone is doing the technique. We said it's hard to tell whether someone's breaching an arbitrary threshhold if it's not by much.