TKD are you playing Fox/Marth or just Marth? I'd rather see you play DDD because I think that he fits your play style better. Falco is difficult for DDD, but a lot of the difficulty is grabbing him in places that you're used to going for with Fox anyway. If you put some time in the lab on the MU then I think that you'd find it to pretty tolerable.
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Meta Knight Q&A Thread
- Thread starter Dojo
- Start date
Volt_Storm_7
Smash Journeyman
Orion*
Smash Researcher
I dont ever recall saying this. I usually tend to say I don't know the MU, and not give an opinion. Same goes for fox actually...
I think Diddy is even if it's not a gay *** stage list.
Falco, ICs/Marth/Olimar, Snake/Wario, in that order all close but I think MK wins by a little bit. Fox is definitely in one of the first two groups. I'm not sure about Pikachu yet though like the character has no usage so I can't even get Any practice for him really.
I could see ICs getting better at it still. And snake/wario both have a lot of room for improvement imo. same for oli. I think in practical terms he's better than most and the MU could get worse... But I have never see and MK actually play the MU and just abuse the character so I'm not sure..
Curlz
Smash Lord
*took it to the Q&A Thread*
How to play the Sonic matchup?
How to play the Sonic matchup?
Yea SL is a great way to deal with spindash, and the easiest ways for Sonic to deal with it won't hit you hard (spring+dair or fairing the glide attack).
Dtilt isn't really that amazing unless you are already close to him. If you aren't close enough to hit him you are leaning in for no reason with barely any coverage.
If you have platforms to work with (2 out of 3 games you should at least) I recomend you stay in the air. Dair/fair/nado all get you the same results as dtilt/ftilt/grab vs sonic without the risk of eating 20 damage from a dive attack or grab.
If you get hit by Fair, you can SDI down and Uair him. Its fairly useful if you wind up whiffing a shuttle loop and you know he is coming for you.
Dtilt isn't really that amazing unless you are already close to him. If you aren't close enough to hit him you are leaning in for no reason with barely any coverage.
If you have platforms to work with (2 out of 3 games you should at least) I recomend you stay in the air. Dair/fair/nado all get you the same results as dtilt/ftilt/grab vs sonic without the risk of eating 20 damage from a dive attack or grab.
If you get hit by Fair, you can SDI down and Uair him. Its fairly useful if you wind up whiffing a shuttle loop and you know he is coming for you.
Kaffei
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2008
- Messages
- 7,048
Curlz
Smash Lord
Thanks for the tips.
There's a tournament in LA coming up at the end of the month and I'm sure I'm gonna play one of the two sonics in the area. I'll try to get a video or two saved.
There's a tournament in LA coming up at the end of the month and I'm sure I'm gonna play one of the two sonics in the area. I'll try to get a video or two saved.
theunabletable
Smash Lord
against Sonic dair camping is really effective. Make sure there's sound on the TV so that when he's charging his spindash bull**** the moment you hear him release you can air jump dair, and that tends to cover his options.
if you're near a ledge, fall off uair is like really good, he can't do anything to stop it (like say you're right next to the ledge, and you just press in the direction so you're off the stage and instantly uair) if he's in a spindash anyways.
Watch out for his fsmash, it's like... super disjointed. If you're offstage, you really have to be careful not to throw anything out, 'cause it like... just beats ****.
Dair is like really good against Sonic. Tornado isn't that good against a Sonic that knows how to stop it, a lot of the time tornado is what they wait for, because he can just shield it, and then punish you afterwards no matter where you go because Sonic's cheap.
If you get up thrown, and you don't DI it, and you see him spring, usually you can just throw out a dair on reaction, and he can't really do anything about it. It's not like he can change his momentum to bait the dair and then attack you afterwards, if he's springed, his vertical movement is now completely predictable, apart from ability to fastfall/dair which isn't relevant in this position. So if you see him spring, usually you can just throw out dair (on reaction to seeing spring, don't just throw it out without seeing him spring, because if you do that he can mix up his timing and predict you, because you're working off prediction, not reaction).
Idk maybe Sonic has something he can do against just dairing him when he comes at you after Uthrow, but I haven't seen it, and it's worked for me in that position against every Sonic lol
You can juggle him pretty well, tornado is good here for juggling if he's already springed. Like if he's springed and he's just cartwheeling down to the ground, and you tornado, he can only really dair to get away, air dodge, or fastfall (and stuff after fastfall if he wants). Well if you space it like ****tily he could drop into your nado and do **** but try and make it so he's not able to do that, so that you don't need to worry about it.
If he takes you to yoshi's, and he charged up his side B on the ledge because that's what he'll do, tornadoing is really safe. If he's fully charged his side B, his options are to do his spinning jump thing (where he's still in ball form and just jumps up) which can evade tornado, but with that platform in the middle he has no real way of punish it if you retreat well. Or he can continue his spindash. Moooost of the time, tornado clanks with his spindash, and that causes his invincibility to go away, but your tornado still has hitboxes, and then he gets swallowed up by it. But sometimes tornado gets cancelled out and stuff. Idk it's pretty inconsistent and I don't know what causes it, in practicality it's kinda random, so the majority of the time your tornado should win out. But I guess keep in mind that dumb Brawl stuff can happen here lol
If he hasn't charged up his side B completely, like if he's just started the spindash charge thing, he can shield cancel it, and if he does that, and then you tornado at him, he has a legitimate shot of punish you, so don't throw out preemptive tornados unless you're pretty sure they'll hit, but if you're like at a stalemate or something for a moment, or you just see that he's waiting for you to do something and he's already fully charged his side B, you can just throw out tornado and it's almost completely safe.
On a normal stage, if his spindash hits your shield, and he jumps out of it, a lot of the time you can just up air him out of shield, or up B him if you guess which direction he goes (like a standard up B if he doesn't cross you up, but if they hit your shield with spindash, I think they almost always cross up, so a turnaround up B can usually beat whatever his option is after a spindash).
I think he can hit your shield with a spindash, and immediately spring out of it, and be unpunishable at first, like if you try something out of shield and he picks that option, he'll never take damage or something lol. But then he's also way high in the air after a spring, and you can kinda just throw out a tornado in the direction he's facing (to cover his auto-cancel down air option).
I'm not 100% sure on some of the out of shield stuff, I always feel kind of inconsistent here, because sometimes I'm fast, and Sonics hit my shield and then I just punish them with a juggle or something, but other times maybe I mess up a buffered uair and I get hit by a spring, or a bair or something. Like if I'm playing on point, and precise, I feel like Sonic's unsafe on shield, but I think you need to be kind of fast to do that, and I'm really inconsistent in my in-game control in general haha
Sonic's really tough, because they all know how to play the MK matchup, and if you go on autopilot, you're gonna get *****, because they're all trained to punish everything you whiff. Sonic can bait you really hard.
Doooon't go for shorthop fairs, he can just hit you after them and they don't protect you lol. Fullhop fair can be pretty good because it's often a really awkward angle for Sonic to punish, and by the time he's caught on to the way he needs to punish it, you often have enough time to rising dair him.
If you're juggling him, and you're gonna tornado, and you're just a tiny bit unsure that he's able to air dodge through it, don't go for it, just continue with your uair traps. If your reaction time is quick you can uair his dair. Don't just go for shuttle loops that have a good chance of missing, but also don't forget that getting an early kill is HUGE in this matchup, especially. Sonic does have trouble killing, and if you just don't get hit by his spindash, and you don't walk into his Fsmash (it's not toooo hard, but it is much harder than you would think, it's a lot more disjointed than it looks lol. If you're at a kill percent and you're unsure, don't challenge it because it probably has more range than you expect haha. Be careful about that **** when you're on the ledge, too. If he's charging his Fsmashes at the ledge and aiming them down, see if you can wait until you see him release the Fsmash, and then fair him afterwards or make your move then, but not DURING his fsmash charge, because it beats a lot more than you'd expect, a lot more consistently than you'd expect), then he's not gonna get kills particularly easily.
and if you die to something unexpected early, make sure to shrug it off, especially against Sonic. He can hold a lead against MK, but not nearly as well as you can hold a lead against him, as long as the timer isn't too much on his side, you're NEVER out of this matchup.
In general, juggling is really helpful because he doesn't have many options after spring (keep that in mind and figure out for yourself the best way that you personally can take advantage of that), try not to get hit by anything especially dumb because living a long time is one of your best advantages in this matchup, and don't throw stuff out/on his shield because he can punish like everything on whiff other than a rising dair. Oh and dair camping is good if you do it right.
idk this is all I could think of about this matchup, and I'm probably wrong on a lot of it, but this has been my experience with it from playing X, and some socal sonics and some vegas sonic recently. I hope it helps you, I'm pretty done with the game so I figured I might as well make what's probably my last post on the Brawl boards a hopefully constructive one for somebody c:
if you're near a ledge, fall off uair is like really good, he can't do anything to stop it (like say you're right next to the ledge, and you just press in the direction so you're off the stage and instantly uair) if he's in a spindash anyways.
Watch out for his fsmash, it's like... super disjointed. If you're offstage, you really have to be careful not to throw anything out, 'cause it like... just beats ****.
Dair is like really good against Sonic. Tornado isn't that good against a Sonic that knows how to stop it, a lot of the time tornado is what they wait for, because he can just shield it, and then punish you afterwards no matter where you go because Sonic's cheap.
If you get up thrown, and you don't DI it, and you see him spring, usually you can just throw out a dair on reaction, and he can't really do anything about it. It's not like he can change his momentum to bait the dair and then attack you afterwards, if he's springed, his vertical movement is now completely predictable, apart from ability to fastfall/dair which isn't relevant in this position. So if you see him spring, usually you can just throw out dair (on reaction to seeing spring, don't just throw it out without seeing him spring, because if you do that he can mix up his timing and predict you, because you're working off prediction, not reaction).
Idk maybe Sonic has something he can do against just dairing him when he comes at you after Uthrow, but I haven't seen it, and it's worked for me in that position against every Sonic lol
You can juggle him pretty well, tornado is good here for juggling if he's already springed. Like if he's springed and he's just cartwheeling down to the ground, and you tornado, he can only really dair to get away, air dodge, or fastfall (and stuff after fastfall if he wants). Well if you space it like ****tily he could drop into your nado and do **** but try and make it so he's not able to do that, so that you don't need to worry about it.
If he takes you to yoshi's, and he charged up his side B on the ledge because that's what he'll do, tornadoing is really safe. If he's fully charged his side B, his options are to do his spinning jump thing (where he's still in ball form and just jumps up) which can evade tornado, but with that platform in the middle he has no real way of punish it if you retreat well. Or he can continue his spindash. Moooost of the time, tornado clanks with his spindash, and that causes his invincibility to go away, but your tornado still has hitboxes, and then he gets swallowed up by it. But sometimes tornado gets cancelled out and stuff. Idk it's pretty inconsistent and I don't know what causes it, in practicality it's kinda random, so the majority of the time your tornado should win out. But I guess keep in mind that dumb Brawl stuff can happen here lol
If he hasn't charged up his side B completely, like if he's just started the spindash charge thing, he can shield cancel it, and if he does that, and then you tornado at him, he has a legitimate shot of punish you, so don't throw out preemptive tornados unless you're pretty sure they'll hit, but if you're like at a stalemate or something for a moment, or you just see that he's waiting for you to do something and he's already fully charged his side B, you can just throw out tornado and it's almost completely safe.
On a normal stage, if his spindash hits your shield, and he jumps out of it, a lot of the time you can just up air him out of shield, or up B him if you guess which direction he goes (like a standard up B if he doesn't cross you up, but if they hit your shield with spindash, I think they almost always cross up, so a turnaround up B can usually beat whatever his option is after a spindash).
I think he can hit your shield with a spindash, and immediately spring out of it, and be unpunishable at first, like if you try something out of shield and he picks that option, he'll never take damage or something lol. But then he's also way high in the air after a spring, and you can kinda just throw out a tornado in the direction he's facing (to cover his auto-cancel down air option).
I'm not 100% sure on some of the out of shield stuff, I always feel kind of inconsistent here, because sometimes I'm fast, and Sonics hit my shield and then I just punish them with a juggle or something, but other times maybe I mess up a buffered uair and I get hit by a spring, or a bair or something. Like if I'm playing on point, and precise, I feel like Sonic's unsafe on shield, but I think you need to be kind of fast to do that, and I'm really inconsistent in my in-game control in general haha
Sonic's really tough, because they all know how to play the MK matchup, and if you go on autopilot, you're gonna get *****, because they're all trained to punish everything you whiff. Sonic can bait you really hard.
Doooon't go for shorthop fairs, he can just hit you after them and they don't protect you lol. Fullhop fair can be pretty good because it's often a really awkward angle for Sonic to punish, and by the time he's caught on to the way he needs to punish it, you often have enough time to rising dair him.
If you're juggling him, and you're gonna tornado, and you're just a tiny bit unsure that he's able to air dodge through it, don't go for it, just continue with your uair traps. If your reaction time is quick you can uair his dair. Don't just go for shuttle loops that have a good chance of missing, but also don't forget that getting an early kill is HUGE in this matchup, especially. Sonic does have trouble killing, and if you just don't get hit by his spindash, and you don't walk into his Fsmash (it's not toooo hard, but it is much harder than you would think, it's a lot more disjointed than it looks lol. If you're at a kill percent and you're unsure, don't challenge it because it probably has more range than you expect haha. Be careful about that **** when you're on the ledge, too. If he's charging his Fsmashes at the ledge and aiming them down, see if you can wait until you see him release the Fsmash, and then fair him afterwards or make your move then, but not DURING his fsmash charge, because it beats a lot more than you'd expect, a lot more consistently than you'd expect), then he's not gonna get kills particularly easily.
and if you die to something unexpected early, make sure to shrug it off, especially against Sonic. He can hold a lead against MK, but not nearly as well as you can hold a lead against him, as long as the timer isn't too much on his side, you're NEVER out of this matchup.
In general, juggling is really helpful because he doesn't have many options after spring (keep that in mind and figure out for yourself the best way that you personally can take advantage of that), try not to get hit by anything especially dumb because living a long time is one of your best advantages in this matchup, and don't throw stuff out/on his shield because he can punish like everything on whiff other than a rising dair. Oh and dair camping is good if you do it right.
idk this is all I could think of about this matchup, and I'm probably wrong on a lot of it, but this has been my experience with it from playing X, and some socal sonics and some vegas sonic recently. I hope it helps you, I'm pretty done with the game so I figured I might as well make what's probably my last post on the Brawl boards a hopefully constructive one for somebody c:
Orion*
Smash Researcher
please just do this if you have a lead and they are camping like ******s.
also @ table
sorry you're quitting man :/
it's a shame i never met you or anything but i always liked your posts and I felt like you are one of the most optimal posters on SWF. if like half the community put the effort you did before posting then I honestly think this would be a very enjoyable website... (sad amirite >_>).
Kaffei
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2008
- Messages
- 7,048
Orion is GR to SL on Olimar legit
Orion*
Smash Researcher
if it is either you would have to pivot grab olimar out of his landing..
i actually was going to test that this weekend it actually looks like it might be, otori did it like he had practiced it LMAO
TSM ZeRo
Banned via Administration
I'm also curious about the Grab Release>Shuttle Loop tactic Otori used against Nietono in GF's. Can someone test it and then report if it's actually a true combo?
One weird thing is that Jason and me tried it for a while before Apex but couldn't find the right timing... Hmmm.
One weird thing is that Jason and me tried it for a while before Apex but couldn't find the right timing... Hmmm.
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
Only works if Olimar mashes with jump. Grabbing him out of the air and/or buffering a pummel won't help.
Also wow, worst avatar ever Zero. Why.
Also wow, worst avatar ever Zero. Why.
^ Wouldn't it still be possible (and most effective) if you dash grabbed him at the ledge or edge of a platform? Or does it require a running start for the shuttle loop to hit?
Certainly there must be some area of uneven ground where its effective, considering the likely Oli and MK Cps.
Certainly there must be some area of uneven ground where its effective, considering the likely Oli and MK Cps.
If the
is mashing and clicks jump or up on the control stick, it forces an air release. Thus the combo can happen. I haven't tested this extensively though, I've managed it a few times against cpus, maybe Otori-san just has the reads of a god.^^^^ this.
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
Wow Kaffei is good at stating the obvious
and Ori is good at retelling information!
These boards are amazing. Nice metagame progression, guys.
and Ori is good at retelling information!
These boards are amazing. Nice metagame progression, guys.
Ah, thats what I was worried about. Probably doesn't work at the ledge, since MKs airspeed is so bad. Meaning there is probably no reliable way to make it happen, except maybe the SV platform.
Player-4
See you in 25 years
Your pointless post is really helping the metagame progression so much.
I'm actually curious now to see if it works at the ledge. I'll test that today at some point.
Brosuke is mad that I'm just doing what you should do in this thread.
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
I'm obv mad.
I'm progressing metagame with madness.
I'm progressing metagame with madness.
Hi, I was wondering if there is any combo's/strings that I could work on just by myself with computer's. I've gotten all the oos stuff down perfect and all the other basic stuff, just wondering if there was any good combo's to work on that would be useful.
Thanks!
Thanks!
Kaffei
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2008
- Messages
- 7,048
That's why I said obviously, you fk
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
Hey man, at least you know you can air release Olimar over the edge while you have to dash to do a follow-up! I mean, what if the stage magically extends? That'd be swell.
Kaffei
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2008
- Messages
- 7,048
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
y u no take bait
you could practice basic U-Air strings. Remember that it won't be guaranteed when you fight a live opponent, but its nice to know the U-Air strings.
Other than that if you wanna get technical, you could always try the Otori FF B-air -> U-Air strings, or just FF B-air to bascally a lo of stuff.
Thanks! I also have a few more questions. Does DownB have invincibility frames in the middle of it or are you vanurable through the whole thing. Also does anybody use Uair oos? it seems like nair oos or UpB oos would be better options.
Thanks!
Thanks!