Player-4
See you in 25 years
Yeah I didn't understand that either...
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Meta Knight Q&A Thread
- Thread starter Dojo
- Start date
Albert.
Smash Master
Kaffei I know that you're smarter than that.
It's not a question of whether or not Havok knew the match up. It's whether Havok's knowledge and skill was on display in the video, so that others could learn from his successful playing. I actually think that Havok played very very well on his last two stocks but I'm sure we could all learn more from a vid where the MK actually managed to take the three stocks first.
It's not a question of whether or not Havok knew the match up. It's whether Havok's knowledge and skill was on display in the video, so that others could learn from his successful playing. I actually think that Havok played very very well on his last two stocks but I'm sure we could all learn more from a vid where the MK actually managed to take the three stocks first.
Albert.
Smash Master
What do you guys think of the new Perfect Shield Cancelling thing?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=294888
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=294888
Enzo
Smash Lord
^ and snake obv
ぱみゅ
❤ ~
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I really don't think of it as a serious business, the timing is too hard to do it consistently. But now you gotta be more cautious about random nado'ing
Player-4
See you in 25 years
Just means people need to do better Nados, which will end up helping us more imo
It's not really gonna hurt Nado too much
You'd study an old video of M2K vs. Nakat over Havok vs. TKD?
Havok didn't lose because he didn't know the match-up. He lost because he SDed. Havok was clearly shutting down TKD's options/kill ability.
Kaffei
Smash Hero
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I was just kidding lol
NAKAT
Smash Champion
Albert.
Smash Master
The perfect shielding Cancelling thingy isn't necessarily all about Nado. I think people are gonna learn this s**t. At least the players that were already formidable.
Let's think about which zoning/pressure tools are now unsafe vs which characters. Let's think about how MK can use PSCing to his advantage.
Let's think about which zoning/pressure tools are now unsafe vs which characters. Let's think about how MK can use PSCing to his advantage.
Enzo
Smash Lord
what happens when naruto gets maaaaaaad salty
*points at your sig*
NAKAT
Smash Champion
HARD NAME SEARCH
It's not that helpful for Meta Knight to be honest. A lot of his good OoS options are unaffected by power shielding and tilts out of shield are so under-used that it can't be expected to see a spike in power shielding>buffered tilts. With that said, PS>Dtilt beats virtually everything in the game except for a few projectile related frame traps (e.g. Falco's silent laser>Jab, which is punished by power shield>drop shield>power shield>tilt).
NAKAT
Smash Champion
You already know son lol.
!!!RM!!!
Smash Journeyman
Trying to learn about how to position my MK against different characters so...
Where should a grounded MK be in relation to a grounded: Snake, Falco, Dedede, Diddy, and Tink. I'm really clueless on Tink and Dedede in particular. :/
Where should a grounded MK be in relation to a grounded: Snake, Falco, Dedede, Diddy, and Tink. I'm really clueless on Tink and Dedede in particular. :/
In my own experience...
Against a Snake, stay out of reach of his ftilts, though this will be difficult against a good snake because they will pretty much control the course. Dtilt and Ftilt outranges his ftilt (Dtilt I know, Ftilt I think).
Falco, just stay out of grab range. I like to approach them from the air, a lot of dair camping until they commit to a move. Their downB has too much range >.<
Dedede has another throw you want to stay out of. Their ftilt has a lot of range, but it's easible punishable if you have the reflexes or the foresight to predict and shield this move. So either stay at the tip of this move and shield it, or stay just out of range and punish with a dash+grab.
Diddy and Tink, I'm not familiar with the MUs
On a side note to everybody....
What's the general consensus on ledge-camping as a primary strategy? Has anybody used the CSL with much success? How many times do people fall for the drop+jumpin+fair+driftout+ledgegrab trick? It seems pretty solid but I'm afraid that there's some vital flaw I'm overlooking ._.
Against a Snake, stay out of reach of his ftilts, though this will be difficult against a good snake because they will pretty much control the course. Dtilt and Ftilt outranges his ftilt (Dtilt I know, Ftilt I think).
Falco, just stay out of grab range. I like to approach them from the air, a lot of dair camping until they commit to a move. Their downB has too much range >.<
Dedede has another throw you want to stay out of. Their ftilt has a lot of range, but it's easible punishable if you have the reflexes or the foresight to predict and shield this move. So either stay at the tip of this move and shield it, or stay just out of range and punish with a dash+grab.
Diddy and Tink, I'm not familiar with the MUs
On a side note to everybody....
What's the general consensus on ledge-camping as a primary strategy? Has anybody used the CSL with much success? How many times do people fall for the drop+jumpin+fair+driftout+ledgegrab trick? It seems pretty solid but I'm afraid that there's some vital flaw I'm overlooking ._.
Kaffei
Smash Hero
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Tink is usually never grounded so don't worry about that.
Try your best to power shield his projectiles and look for any patterns in how he uses them. Exploit that. When he doesn't have a bomb, and is in the air, TORNADO.
As for DDD, watch out for any Ftilts & Waddle Dee throws. They are both pretty slow moves, but can sometimes catch you off card. You definitely don't want to get grabbed either. Even though he doesn't have a chain grab on MK, his grabs still do a lot of damage. Don't glide attack a grounded DDD's shield btw.
That's all I got.
Esca
Smash Champion
Enzo
Smash Lord
Hey guys im goign to be going to a tournament this weekend and apprently theres gonna be an abundance of foxes
I have never played this MU.
Any tips and vids please?
I have never played this MU.
Any tips and vids please?
Luco
Smash Hero
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My brother might be able to help you out on this one BLM. We aren't so technical, but we might be able to show you what could work and what won't for whatever reasons. Remember, this is pretty much based on moveset and stats. It's up to you, of course, to choose though. Only thing, i don't really know what MU is, so you may have to explain.... Anyway, on to the list:
Samus: Samus has long range attacks. Unfortunately, fox can deflect it quite easily(Fox is a really well all rounded charcter, and he has a lot of good finishing moves). Samus is too slow+time frame not big enough for samus to jumpover the beam and hit fox while he's vulnerable. Fox is faster than samus, so he'd be able to outrun her, shoot his lasers, and hit her hard when she has a high percentage.
Zero Suit Samus: Zero suit Samus is faster than samus, but she has no good ranged attacks. Her paralyzer's range would mean she would have to be close to fox when she did it. Not a good idea. He could deflect it back at her and stun her instead, seeing as she'd have no time at all to jump over it and hit fox, unless she was at a perfect distance, which can be hard to achieve.
kirby: Again, there is the issue of deflection. Fox can jump out of the way of kirby's rock, and grab kirby instead. He can also use the gun to hurt kirby and, like samus, hit kirby with a finishing move to destroy him. Kirby, however, can copy fox, and then use his gun against him, and kirby does have a good finishing move or two...
Zelda: I'm not actually sure whether he can deflect din's fire or not, someone may have to answer here.... Zelda herself has a deflecting move, but it only lasts for a few seconds, so she'd only be able to deflect some of his shots. Also, i've found fire is a very good way of hurting zelda with fox, as well as a few speeds(i think people call it the phantom move or something).
MK: Mk doesn't have any ranged moves if i remember correctly, so fox's deflect attack is almost of no use. He can also deal damage quite effectively, using tornado, and what i like to call booyah! ( :-P ). Obviously, flying under the screen works as a safe way to get from one side to another, for any reason you may have, unless it's an item: I'm pretty sure he'll get to it first. His disappearing trick might be of use if he doesn't know which direction you are going:Try not to go off the stage though. Other people can help with explanations involving MK.
Ness: The unfortunate truth with ness is that all his special moves except for down can be deflected back at himself. There is good news, however, as his down B can absorb damage taken by fox's gun. This, however, leaves him open, so never use it if fox is close. His PK thunder doesn't push him very far, and if the foxes you are versing are precise with their characters, they'll know what you are doing and roll in to or away from you when you do, or alternatively stay away from you altogether until you are vulnerable. Ness has some nice normal attacks though, and if you can get two PK fires in on him, you might just be able to get a nice thwack in with your bat, but you need luck for that.
Lucas: Like ness, almost everyone of lucas's attacks can be deflected. If you are good with him, though, thgere are a few ways to combat this. His PK thunder pushes him further, and it can be harder for fox to get to him, however, if those foxes are good, they'll roll in to you and avoid the attack completely, and then attack you when you land. Lucas's PK fire doesn't serve so well as ness's does, so thats more of a no go. The thing about lucas, though, is that his PK magnet hurts him if fox gets too close, meaning, as long as fox doesn't roll behind you, you can use it at close range as both a means of defense and attack. Lucas is slightly faster with his stick than ness's bat, and you might be able to get a few of those hits in on him too. He has some strong attacks, but they can be slow, so be careful when using them.
Ganondorf: Ganondorf is pretty much the slowest player in the game, by which i mean his run is probably the same speed or slower than sonic's walk. This leaves him at a disadvantage, as he can barely get a good hit in. He does have a grab and a kick(for being so quick, as he might say to fox :-P), which could collide with a running fox. Hmmm.....
Lucario: Lucario has a ranged attack that can be deflected, and, like samus, he's just not fast enough to attack fox in that time frame. If you can get fox under you, you can do the double kick, which is a decent move to get some space. It could be hard to grab him, but... If you know how to use his counter attack, it could serve very well. Anticipate some of fox's attacks and you can deal him the better blow instead of the other way around.
Sonic: Sonic, unfortunately, like zero suit samus, doesn't have the best finishing moves of all time. He can give a nice amount of damage, and he's faster than fox by far, plus he has no ranged attacks, but fox is fast enough to get past his few nice finishing attacks. If you get a good round, however, you can grab him when he has enough percentage, and chuck him off the screen, but you won't get every round like that, so some you may win by only the skin on your teeth.
There are heaps more, those are only a few. I know the rest can help there.
Samus: Samus has long range attacks. Unfortunately, fox can deflect it quite easily(Fox is a really well all rounded charcter, and he has a lot of good finishing moves). Samus is too slow+time frame not big enough for samus to jumpover the beam and hit fox while he's vulnerable. Fox is faster than samus, so he'd be able to outrun her, shoot his lasers, and hit her hard when she has a high percentage.
Zero Suit Samus: Zero suit Samus is faster than samus, but she has no good ranged attacks. Her paralyzer's range would mean she would have to be close to fox when she did it. Not a good idea. He could deflect it back at her and stun her instead, seeing as she'd have no time at all to jump over it and hit fox, unless she was at a perfect distance, which can be hard to achieve.
kirby: Again, there is the issue of deflection. Fox can jump out of the way of kirby's rock, and grab kirby instead. He can also use the gun to hurt kirby and, like samus, hit kirby with a finishing move to destroy him. Kirby, however, can copy fox, and then use his gun against him, and kirby does have a good finishing move or two...
Zelda: I'm not actually sure whether he can deflect din's fire or not, someone may have to answer here.... Zelda herself has a deflecting move, but it only lasts for a few seconds, so she'd only be able to deflect some of his shots. Also, i've found fire is a very good way of hurting zelda with fox, as well as a few speeds(i think people call it the phantom move or something).
MK: Mk doesn't have any ranged moves if i remember correctly, so fox's deflect attack is almost of no use. He can also deal damage quite effectively, using tornado, and what i like to call booyah! ( :-P ). Obviously, flying under the screen works as a safe way to get from one side to another, for any reason you may have, unless it's an item: I'm pretty sure he'll get to it first. His disappearing trick might be of use if he doesn't know which direction you are going:Try not to go off the stage though. Other people can help with explanations involving MK.
Ness: The unfortunate truth with ness is that all his special moves except for down can be deflected back at himself. There is good news, however, as his down B can absorb damage taken by fox's gun. This, however, leaves him open, so never use it if fox is close. His PK thunder doesn't push him very far, and if the foxes you are versing are precise with their characters, they'll know what you are doing and roll in to or away from you when you do, or alternatively stay away from you altogether until you are vulnerable. Ness has some nice normal attacks though, and if you can get two PK fires in on him, you might just be able to get a nice thwack in with your bat, but you need luck for that.
Lucas: Like ness, almost everyone of lucas's attacks can be deflected. If you are good with him, though, thgere are a few ways to combat this. His PK thunder pushes him further, and it can be harder for fox to get to him, however, if those foxes are good, they'll roll in to you and avoid the attack completely, and then attack you when you land. Lucas's PK fire doesn't serve so well as ness's does, so thats more of a no go. The thing about lucas, though, is that his PK magnet hurts him if fox gets too close, meaning, as long as fox doesn't roll behind you, you can use it at close range as both a means of defense and attack. Lucas is slightly faster with his stick than ness's bat, and you might be able to get a few of those hits in on him too. He has some strong attacks, but they can be slow, so be careful when using them.
Ganondorf: Ganondorf is pretty much the slowest player in the game, by which i mean his run is probably the same speed or slower than sonic's walk. This leaves him at a disadvantage, as he can barely get a good hit in. He does have a grab and a kick(for being so quick, as he might say to fox :-P), which could collide with a running fox. Hmmm.....
Lucario: Lucario has a ranged attack that can be deflected, and, like samus, he's just not fast enough to attack fox in that time frame. If you can get fox under you, you can do the double kick, which is a decent move to get some space. It could be hard to grab him, but... If you know how to use his counter attack, it could serve very well. Anticipate some of fox's attacks and you can deal him the better blow instead of the other way around.
Sonic: Sonic, unfortunately, like zero suit samus, doesn't have the best finishing moves of all time. He can give a nice amount of damage, and he's faster than fox by far, plus he has no ranged attacks, but fox is fast enough to get past his few nice finishing attacks. If you get a good round, however, you can grab him when he has enough percentage, and chuck him off the screen, but you won't get every round like that, so some you may win by only the skin on your teeth.
There are heaps more, those are only a few. I know the rest can help there.
Kaffei
Smash Hero
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Actually Tornado is not that good against Fox. He pops out super easily and if you even miss it once he can pretty much punish it 100% of the time because of how fast he is.
Also don't get grab released by him (just don't mash out) cus he can up smash out of it which kills at like 90%
Also don't get grab released by him (just don't mash out) cus he can up smash out of it which kills at like 90%
Luco
Smash Hero
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Huh, i wouldn't have expected.... I like tornadoing near the ground, so i would have thought that would get him. Then again, if he saw what you were doing he could just jump....
theunabletable
Smash Lord
Actually Fox's shine (his down B/deflect attack) is amazingly useful against MK.
It's basically a "I'm not going to land right now" button, which makes juggling him way riskier than a lot of other characters.
Uhm generally stay grounded, be aware that if he dairs your shield, you can punish it with a nair out of shield (if he miss-spaces it, which does happen). Tornado isn't that good against him because if he pops out, he can shine, and stay above the tornado (he gains upward momentum from the shine when he uses it right after getting hit, so he's in a position to land a free dair > followup on you).
Generally he's going to camp you a lot, and you do have to approach. Approach grounded, and don't dash much. But if you predict a laser at mid range (good Fox's won't do it at a bad position like this, but average ones will sometimes do this, and it's a free punish) it's like a free dash attack or dash grab.
Fox is pretty good at beating dair camping.
If he gets a grab on you, be VERY careful about mashing. He can GR to upsmash you (unless there's a platform in the way).
Frankly it's a really close matchup if the Fox knows it well (TKD, who probably knows the workings of the matchup better than anyone on Earth, says it's in Fox's favor. Take that how you will, but he's pretty damn educated when it comes to how this matchup works). Make sure to pressure him hard on the ledge and put as much damage to him offstage as possible.
Fighting him in the air is dangerous because of his down air, and his ability to land it through his fast fall speed, and his shine to stop his momentum, allowing mixup potential for when he'll dair you. And throwing out aerials while he's grounded is a bad idea because, for instance, he can upsmash your fair on whiff on reaction. So if he's waiting for you to fair, and you throw out a fair that doesn't hit, then he gets a free 17% + positional advantage.
idk much more. Basically just stay grounded and play smart. Zeton (he's supposed to be one of the better Foxes, right?) told me I was playing it right, and that's mostly what I was doing
Luco
Smash Hero
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yes, well, that's what i meant when i said almost, but, hmm... My brother and i just played together to test it(and also to learn how to DI -.-). I found tornado worked well on him. Then again, he never used shine when he got out of it. I also found booyah(i really need the proper name for this attack :-P ) works on him, but only if he wasn't near me. He had to be in range, but he couldn't be next to you. If you could get that, i found that he got hit on the tip, couldn't get out of it, and got launched a little after the end of the attack, leaving you a bit of breathing room. Maybe that's not the case, you'd want the others to verify...
Albert.
Smash Master
Luco You seem nice, and eager to help, but please don't post so much stuff as if You're an experienced and knowledgable poster.
I mean you no offense, It's just that impressionable people like yourself might read into your stuff.
I mean you no offense, It's just that impressionable people like yourself might read into your stuff.
Enzo
Smash Lord
@Table thanks for the information it'll be very useful for me since I didn't know **** about this MU.
@Luco, no hard feelings I appreciatee any input but Albert is sorta right, unless ur an alt accnt or sumthin based on ur join date i dont think that it is possible for u to be such a knowledgeable player. I still appreciate ur input though, so thanks
@Luco, no hard feelings I appreciatee any input but Albert is sorta right, unless ur an alt accnt or sumthin based on ur join date i dont think that it is possible for u to be such a knowledgeable player. I still appreciate ur input though, so thanks
theunabletable
Smash Lord
^Oh and be aware, Fox can pretty much force a guessing game by simply jumping at you. If he full hops and jumps at you, he, if he guesses correctly/you guess incorrectly, has a way of punishing all your options without much difficulty and consistently.
If you attack and he air dodges, he gets a free grab/whatever. If he shines at the right spacing and you throw out something like a uair, he can dair>followup you. If you just shield he can air dodge > crossup and then it's basically a brand new guessing game, but with him having the positional advantage.
So make sure when he's jumping at you that you don't have any glaring habits; because I'm pretty sure that Foxes will look for these (or atleast I'd imagine that they would, and the Foxes that I've played have. Since it's something that pays off against people who don't know, and it requires relatively little focus expended due to it being a pretty specific position).
And remember, when he's camping you (which is basically what he's always doing when the position is neutral lol), don't dash at him. No need to get close to him as fast as possible when walking to him will likely slow his camping down just because of the threat of you dashing and landing a grab, and you'll have more options.
If you attack and he air dodges, he gets a free grab/whatever. If he shines at the right spacing and you throw out something like a uair, he can dair>followup you. If you just shield he can air dodge > crossup and then it's basically a brand new guessing game, but with him having the positional advantage.
So make sure when he's jumping at you that you don't have any glaring habits; because I'm pretty sure that Foxes will look for these (or atleast I'd imagine that they would, and the Foxes that I've played have. Since it's something that pays off against people who don't know, and it requires relatively little focus expended due to it being a pretty specific position).
And remember, when he's camping you (which is basically what he's always doing when the position is neutral lol), don't dash at him. No need to get close to him as fast as possible when walking to him will likely slow his camping down just because of the threat of you dashing and landing a grab, and you'll have more options.
Player-4
See you in 25 years
Social thread plz >_>
BlueZebra
Smash Journeyman
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnvvy5UZMeQ
I got down a majority of the stuff in that video except one thing, and I'm not sure if I'm doing it right. After he gets a kill you'll see him RAR(at least that's what I think he's doing)
so is it dash>tap the other direction>short hop>Fair>fast fall?
I got down a majority of the stuff in that video except one thing, and I'm not sure if I'm doing it right. After he gets a kill you'll see him RAR(at least that's what I think he's doing)
so is it dash>tap the other direction>short hop>Fair>fast fall?
ItoI6
Smash Journeyman
If he jumps at you why don't you just step just outside the range of any of his attacks and punish his landing instead of trying to challenge him in the air.
Pitzer
The Young Lion
Mk vs Fox is very annoying on some parts. I mean they both **** each other. Mk ***** him offstage, Fox can hold his own on stage. Laser's get annoying and the drill to grabs and etc. I hate how he can pop out of nado and drill you. When I play this match up I usually, Dtilt/Ftilt his ground approaches. If I hear a side B I nado, and either drag him on the side of my nado or stop pushing the B button so my nado touches the stage and pop's him up. I try not to mash out of his grab, but I hate getting like 10-15 pummels in b4 I can break out. I think Mk's Fair Out prioritize's his aerials. He can stall with his shine I know but, I try to get under him either forcing him to airdodge or throw out an attack then I react with either a SL or a Jump Airdodge. I always ban Fd vs fox it gives him too much room to pew pew zing pew pew Up-smash, Flutterhush and etc. I'm trying to read fox's more. I need more experience with mk in this match-up Like I said a while ago I play this match up with pit so I pretty much can stop his laser's and force him to approach at times.
Jem.
Smash Master
I wouldn't say don't mash out though, Kaffei. Atleast in my region, people heavily test you on what you do when you're grabbed. If you have a weak struggle game, people pummel you for more damage. If they notice you hitting jump when you struggle, they keep doing it until you stop. Just mash out without inputting a jump and you dont pop out for an air release.