Melee Tournament Mafia! Game Over, Town Wins!

[#HBC | Laundry]

Dependent is the exact word. If you have to have us join your wagon and help you lead your case, that's being dependent on us for either confirmation of your case's validity or dependent on our credibility and pull to bring in players to the wagon. Why can't you tackle Adumb by yourself, J?

And no, we haven't done anything since our last post in the thread, which is before RR's claim. Yes, we will get around to things. Hell, may as well do it now while Broto's busy or sleeping or something.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ok...So J wants me to target him, AM wants me to target FF.

Not sure.

 

[#HBC | J]

I can tackle Adumb by myself plenty. Don't flatter yourself with that thought.

I was testing you again, which you failed again. You never responded to that post actually but you bringing up that you saw it and say that you use it against me to prove a point only makes me even more cautious about trusting you. So again, I am getting what I wanted, how lovely. Why have you been ignoring me this game you two? I feel very disconnected with you two when usually we click. Something's up.

 

[#HBC | J]

Red Ryu, flip a coin. It'll save your mind some trouble.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

AM, I have proposition for you. Let's agree to disagree for toDay and move onto a bigger fish we both would like fried. I want Gord the most, you want Vult the most. I would settle for Joey, you would settle for RR. We both have one person we would like dead regardless of the scenario we are presented.

Unvote
Vote: Adumbrodeus

Also, I like the phrase advicedogging just like I like this new whiteknighting phrase I'll be using more.

This post bothers the hell out of me. Town has no reason to bargain with other players on who to lynch before deadline. Scum do.

 

[#HBC | J]

Do they now? Guess we really haven't played that many games together.

Yet, a bit late to comment on it since I had to tell you to do so.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

I can tackle Adumb by myself plenty. Don't flatter yourself with that thought.

I was testing you again, which you failed again. You never responded to that post actually but you bringing up that you saw it and say that you use it against me to prove a point only makes me even more cautious about trusting you. So again, I am getting what I wanted, how lovely. Why have you been ignoring me this game you two? I feel very disconnected with you two when usually we click. Something's up.

That's because it's a bad gambit and we wanted no part of your trap.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

Ok...So J wants me to target him, AM wants me to target FF.

Not sure.

Ignore J, he's scum. Target FrozenFlame.

 

[#HBC | J]

Wasn't a trap~

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

Look at this instance.







He says I have no opinions and stances, then he changes to, "He does but it's just nothing" Which I disproved this already at this point. If people want to say I don't contribute, I don't see what the hell people can say I am not contributing.

But you haven't really contributed much of anything. It's been a bunch of fluff and nothing, none of your reads are individual and your scum reads have been entirely reactionary to people calling you scum. It took us calling you out for you to get a scum read.

When the player himself is doing what he's calling me out on, does he have a right to do such?

Do you?

I'll accept this.

Do something about it.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

Wasn't a trap~

so you're scum then.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

This has to be the hardest game to re-read ughh. I'll have a post up by the time I go to bed tonight.

Red Ryu I will post my scum picks after I re-read. Updated and ready to go.

I am okay with your death but I certainly don't want to waste time lynching you.

 

[#HBC | J]

Nope, I can't believe you are being blind to what that actually was. Especially you of all people. *shrug*

Guess I'll add you to the ignore side for now and focus on the real troubles to town.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

"No content" turns into "He had content but it's nothing" Which is wrong when you consider I referenced my comments to Joey multiple times.

Saying you have no content and saying you have worthless content is saying the exact same thing.

He says he is ignoring RE4, which is try he isn't bringing in meta. But his case on me is not a good one when he gets called out on the same crap he called me out for. Added to that, there is nothing here that adds to the dumb town, argument.

We've already established meta alone is a worthless tell. What we say applies to everything, not just to whom we're responding.

What do he have here, admitting to skimming and glancing over posts, changing cases on people so they fit his argument. This isn't noob town, this is scum.

Why do players have to investigate every grain of sand instead of throwing a sieve in there and get the real jewels out? "Scum don't care?" "Brevity is the essence of wit."

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

Once per night I target a player, the following night that player has me investigate another player, that player I targeted the previous night will get my results.

Such a wonky role but I'm givng you an opportunity to prove it.

@Sworddancer: Lemme check with my other head, FF had it right when he said we were disorganized town. Give me a chance to go over all my reads with him and we'll have the case up when we put all our reads down in front of everyone. Right now he's doing something or sleeping or some **** so I can't get at him.

J, stop throwing your clout around, it makes you look fat.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

Btw, the song reference was Jesus Take the Wheel?

Is this your crumb, sir? I don't get the random reference to songs, you're not me.

 

[#HBC | J]

WL, you won't get it. Another thingy, might wanna consult Ryker before making such bold statements around. Your guise is pretty well set-up but it will not fool me.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12723991&postcount=624

****ing love this post

Still saying no, Vult I liked was due to him taking effort to prove a case, although he should look at other people more than AM at this point. I found this to be more of a town read.

Why is Adumb scum when he has no other reads besides a bunch of town reads and yet Vult is town for playing very similar?

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

WL, you won't get it. Another thingy, might wanna consult Ryker before making such bold statements around. Your guise is pretty well set-up but it will not fool me.

Unlike you, I have the balls to stand on my own two legs. Don't act smarter than me, I know what you're up to.

 

[#HBC | J]

Kay, I'm asleep now and won't be back till after the deadline most likely.

*mental note*

I gotta remember I am talking to WL sometimes and not Ryker. WL doesn't know me as well as Ryker does and will not get what I am trying to tell him.

 

[#HBC | J]

Unlike you, I have the balls to stand on my own two legs. Don't act smarter than me, I know what you're up to.

By all means tell me "what I'm up to". I'm all ears. Your point on me not doing things by myself is weak if you have actually read this game.

Btw, I've finalized my read on you.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

Actually, I would love to hear AM's opinion on RR's claim and what their train of thought now is.

We don't really believe it, it seems like he had it prepared. He didn't really show any remorse or anger or really anything, he wasn't even asked to claim, he did it preemptively, which strikes me as odd. I get that it was moderately provoked but it seems like he was waiting for it.

I'm not gonna lynch him for it, because he has a chance to prove himself. But I want him to use it on who I tell him to use it on, rather than who he thinks to use it on. Or who you think to use it on. Given your whole "I can make you shot or investigated" thing with Vult and then asking Red Ruy to target you?

**** son, that sounds like a scum redirector.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

Kay, I'm asleep now and won't be back till after the deadline most likely.

*mental note*

I gotta remember I am talking to WL sometimes and not Ryker. WL doesn't know me as well as Ryker does and will not get what I am trying to tell him.

derp
get the ****ing meta out of here.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

By all means tell me "what I'm up to". I'm all ears. Your point on me not doing things by myself is weak if you have actually read this game.

Btw, I've finalized my read on you.

Since you so lovingly suggested I talk to Ryker first, I'll gladly do that. You should've listened when he said you are not his J.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

why would you say that if you didn't read it

it's like he can't be wrong
even though he is

 

[#HBC | J]

Oh my you are fun to play with. In more ways then one.

It's not meta WL, not in the slightest. You are beginning to run out of "try agains". Scum redirector? Come on, that's sooooo unoriginal.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

Oh my you are fun to play with. In more ways then one.

It's not meta WL, not in the slightest. You are beginning to run out of "try agains". Scum redirector? Come on, that's sooooo unoriginal.

>Ryker knows me
>WL doesn't
>Implying Ryker knows how you player and I don't
>how you play is meta tells

do i need to post more derp images, i have a lot of them, even guys

 

[#HBC | J]

Do you always only look at the surface value?

AM's town, WL's been pushed adequately and FF can be targetted over myself.

Night.

 

[#HBC | J]

Town: J/Roxy/AM/FF/Swords/RR/Tery/Lil Jon

I like who i think are town. If one scummy is hiding in my town reads it is between Swords/FF dispute and maye Roxy since i am always unsure of him.

Scum: Joey/Adumb/Beatstick/Gord/Vult.

Those are my final reads before deadline.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

I read more off surface value than most other people because I feel people don't look enough at it and it's often the simplest (and, if you're going by Occam's Razor, most likely) answer. I've been wrong before but I find that the more time I spend analyzing the deeper aspects of a person's play, the more I just confuse myself or get myself locked onto a train of thought that could just as easily be wrong.

What's sad is I started telling myself to calm down before reading that post.

 

[#HBC | J]

That is a really really fair post. I was just curious because it seems with my posts you aren't looking at the bigger picture and simply because that's where my doubt had been lying w.r.t. your slot, the WL side.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ignore J, he's scum. Target FrozenFlame.

Since J said it was ok sure.

But you haven't really contributed much of anything. It's been a bunch of fluff and nothing, none of your reads are individual and your scum reads have been entirely reactionary to people calling you scum. It took us calling you out for you to get a scum read.

Well didn't say they weren't done reactionary now did I?

You got my reads and some not reactionary, so whenever your ready to comeback to reality I'll be there waiting.

Do you?

Hellz yeah I can.

Do something about it.

Already did.

Saying you have no content and saying you have worthless content is saying the exact same thing.

They are not the same thing.

We've already established meta alone is a worthless tell. What we say applies to everything, not just to whom we're responding.

Ok.

Why do players have to investigate every grain of sand instead of throwing a sieve in there and get the real jewels out? "Scum don't care?" "Brevity is the essence of wit."

Why do you try to strawman half of your responses to me?

Such a wonky role but I'm givng you an opportunity to prove it.

Cool.

Why is Adumb scum when he has no other reads besides a bunch of town reads and yet Vult is town for playing very similar?

Vult has said something with the opportunity he has had, Adumb has ha just as much and said nothing outside of me.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

I would appreciate hasty responses from people considering twilight ends in less than 12 hours. Not expecting much though obviously.

But seriously Soup? Like I even distinctly asked about this **** pre-game...

Anyway,

@ Adum: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12724230&postcount=626

Well, time is short now so if you have things to tell us they should be coming out right about now.

Concerning Vult, what to you mean "why is he dumb or scum"? I explained it explicitly in my post... That post I quoted was a clear cut case of baseless speculation and paranoia. Totally ignored Occam's Razor. Didn't provide really any substantive explanation for any reason to believe his perspective was a likely case.

Stuff like that is just straight up distracting and the thought process wasn't convincing at all. Hence, either just dumb or scum.

I specifically said I can't tell which is it in THAT VERY POST. How did you miss that? I never made any assertion one way or the other, so why are you trying to make it look like I did?

Oh and you're bussing RR because of the tunneling, plain and simple. I don't have much beyond that, it's mostly a gut read, but I just don't buy it that RR is the only person you have managed to notice and want to comment on this game. Gives me a very "oh **** my partner is going under, gotta try to get some bus cred and while doing so create as few other connections as possible" vibe.

@ J: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12724303&postcount=627

I'm suggesting that you two were distancing each other by means of that interaction. Players can have an interest in distancing each other for a variety of reasons, being scum parters being one of the most typical examples. You two very well could be scummates, but I have other suspicions as well.

@ Sworddancer: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12726447&postcount=698

How is complaining about towns performance and people being dumb not relevant?

If town is playing poorly, why wouldn't I say so? Are you honestly trying to contend that if I have a problem with the topic being discussed, am having trouble getting reads because of it, and think that the focus of towns attention is a poor focus for scumhunting, that I am better off not saying anything and just going with the flow? Are you ****ing kidding me?

You want my stances. I get it. You're borderline obsessed with just my stances considering that's all you seem to like about any of my posts. Whatever. Point is, just because my opinion on what the best direction for to head in is, my thoughts on what likely good/bad town/scum play is, and why discussing certain topics is/isn't important isn't interesting to you at all doesn't make it universally irrelevant.

Like your narrow mindedness is made exceptionally clear from your comments about my questions. Of course you can't see the results of peoples' answers to 'em. They're MY questions. If you can see the intent, then why are you complaining? Intent is a huge part of reading people.

How did the questions help me? They showed me who is paying attention to me, who cares to respond to my questions, who's skimming, and who actually had reasoning behind their initial stances on AM's claim. In short: it gives me info about specific players to develop my reads. Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

Also, stop criticizing me for doing things you areperceiving me to have done, as opposed to what I actually did. Your language of "why are you the only one who can lay the groundwork" and "why are you exempt from getting into the down and dirty" exemplifies this ridiculous perception you have of me. When did I ever say that no one else should suggest topics for discussion other than me? In fact, when did I ever restrict our focus at all? In fact, I broadened it by trying to move away from AM's claim, and then left it open ended. I didn't even make a specific suggestion about where we should focus, yet you're trying to paint me like some draconian dictator who was forcing his way on everyone. Entirely not the case and the fact that you keep doing this bothers me. Same goes for the whole "why are you exempt" thing. When did I ever say I was exempt. Just because I didn't remaining active for the next handful of hours doesn't mean I felt exempt, it means I was busy and had other things, other than mafia to do. You're attributing fallacious fault to me, indicting me for actions I never took.

Wow what does that sound like? Blatant strawmanning. Seriously wtf?

And of course town can become focus on one narrow issue in early game. Again, you're attack positions I never took. All I said was that THAT PARTICULAR ISSUE (AM's claim) was a bad one to focus on because the discussion surrounding it was dumb and bad for getting reads (at least IMO, which obviously gives me incentive to try to stop it). I had a problem with the specific issue being discussed, not the fact that we were focused on an issue.

Also w.r.t. http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12726681&postcount=699

I can't go in to more depth about J + Joey because I really can't explain it. It's just a vibey/gut thing. Like I said, the "tough love" attitude I get from that discourse simply set off alarm bells and makes me think they're deliberately distancing each other. Haven't quite figured out why though.

@ Vult: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12727187&postcount=726

You're saying that you announcing that you would be skimming would result in people changing their posting habits?

How does knowing AM's character claim have any bearing on the likelihood of their being an anti-town princess role, and furthermore, the likelihood of them actually claiming it like they did?

And you're "not convinced" that their claim wasn't just a knee-jerk, not thought through move because why again?

@ AM: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12728442&postcount=765

This is so not true. Not saying that scum don't have an interest in bartering, but townies do too. See Monster Island mafia. When you can't get people to see eye to eye with you, sometimes you have to barter to get the lesser of two evils, or secure an "ok" lynch in your eyes over a bad one. You can tell the difference between town and scum bartering by examining how consistent the offers they make are with previous stances, reads, and convictions.

and http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12729618&postcount=778

Why do you love my post exactly? Whats going on here? Calling for my investigation and then trying some open buddying BS? You wanna be on my good side or something when I'm clear or something? This just comes off as desperation to secure my current town read of you. Very off.

Though I do like the idea of being cleared and being a part of RR proving his alleged roleclaim. Makes me a bigger target for the scum than normal but the WIFOM involved in having to choose between me and AM and their juicy claim for NKs is nice to subject the scum too. As long as town PRs aren't dumb we could get net some nice result from that night action focus.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

Fair enough. Maybe it's something that I don't get, maybe it's something you and I just don't see eye to eye on. I don't agree that scum don't benefit from bartering as I think there's an anti-town notion to essentially try to convince people to come off their cases but I guess trading what you want for what you need is protown, now that I think about it. Just the way that J worded it sent up flags.

I'm not asking for your investigation because I want to confirm you. I want him to investigate you because I trust my town read in you. It's tentative, Broto has lingering doubts, but I'm pretty sure in my read that you are town and therefore I feel confident in risking Red Ruy targeting you for you to clear him.

I like the post because it calls out a number of the people that we've been calling out all phase with the same or better reasoning than we (well, me, Broto hasn't put much effort into this game) have come up with.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

Well didn't say they weren't done reactionary now did I?

You got my reads and some not reactionary, so whenever your ready to comeback to reality I'll be there waiting.

This attitude bothers me. It doesn't scream of town who narrowly avoided death, it screams of a player who thinks he's untouchable. Why the sudden arrogance?

And having entirely reactionary reads is not going to find scum, as FrozenFlame has already said.

Hellz yeah I can.

If you can do it, why can't he?

They are not the same thing.

Alright, let's get into a hypothetical here.

Player A is inactive and when he does post, he essentially posts random things that have no relevance to the game.
Player B is active but he's taking no stances, not really commenting on much of anything of significance, and avoiding confrontation.

What is the difference in terms of how much they're adding to the game?
Are both scummy?

Why do you try to strawman half of your responses to me?

uh
Either I misread you or I'm not strawmanning you. I don't think I've created things just to attack you. I don't do that.

Vult has said something with the opportunity he has had, Adumb has ha just as much and said nothing outside of me.

Really? How so.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ok, Purple's probably scum, didn't wanna say it before she committed to an answer for my question cause I read 393 as a blatant town point grab and I wanted to commit to it before, but it turns out it was an answer to an AM question. Still the overall play strongly suggests scum.

Why?

Reasonably active, yet the majority of posts are absolutely content-less (either asking questions that have no real follow-up or not answer would say anything about alignment, or just plain nothing posts), attacks joey with no real reasoning provided yet never tosses in a vote even though joey is her only suspect for the longest time (actually, doesn't vote at all) so incredibly non-committal, going voteblock with furthermore adds to her non-commital pattern and even when she agrees to a lynch she STILL doesn't vote. Targetting of gordito also lacks teeth.


Yea, I really don't like Roxy at all, cannot commit to any position, fake contributing, barely any reasoning for the positions she takes, and generally a lack of any sort of initiative.

@ Adum: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12724230&postcount=626

Well, time is short now so if you have things to tell us they should be coming out right about now.

Concerning Vult, what to you mean "why is he dumb or scum"? I explained it explicitly in my post... That post I quoted was a clear cut case of baseless speculation and paranoia. Totally ignored Occam's Razor. Didn't provide really any substantive explanation for any reason to believe his perspective was a likely case.

Stuff like that is just straight up distracting and the thought process wasn't convincing at all. Hence, either just dumb or scum.

I specifically said I can't tell which is it in THAT VERY POST. How did you miss that? I never made any assertion one way or the other, so why are you trying to make it look like I did?

No, I'm not asking why "dumb or scum?" I'm asking "why not just dumb?". Reread what I said:

Vult is being dumb, but why is he dumb or scum? What justification do you have for the possibility of him being distracting scum as opposed to just dumbtown?

I'm not saying that you picked a side, I'm asking what your justification is for saying this silly distracting play isn't just dumbtown, cause vult has done plenty that suggests being dumb, but nothing that suggests scum.

I know you said you couldn't tell, but I want you to explain WHY you can't tell, what about Vult's play makes you consider the "or scum" possibility?

Granted, dumb play in and of itself is neutral, but attacking a princess claim with that level of aggression is very townie, why would a scum player attract so much attention in such an obvious way? Especially in a way that would draw such obvious backlash? And having a scumteam behind him to say "no, why you making yourself such an obvious target" makes it even less likely. It's very easy to argue that dumb obvious town play is dumb or scum play and I know you're a strong enough player to have a reason if you think he's dumb or scum, I'd like you to back that read up. Please.


So, let's try this again, what's your justification for it being possible that vult is scum as opposed to vult being merely dumb?

The player I target gets the results, not me.

I mean what sort of results do they get?

 

[Lil Jon]

@J Adum Joey Read on beatstick? Don't give me null.
@Gordito Where you at? Have you had any stances besides Joey/RR? What's your thoughts on Purple, Adumb and Beat?
@Joey You're town, right? Right? So you'll do me a favour for toMorrow?
@Vult Can you explain why Purple was looking scummy recently for me?

Gonna re-read again today. Kinda wish I was alive toMorrow now .__.;

 

[Dooms]

I thought beatstick was town earlier, and he hasn't done anything to change my read since, sooo..

What favor?

 

[Lil Jon]

I'll tell you before the end of the day =).

 

[Beat!]

After rereading with town LJ in mind, these are my scum reads:

Gord, Red Ruy, Joey, possibly J

Gord and RR have been going for each other a lot, and a lot of their reasoning has been bad. A lot of it is either interpreting things the way they like by making assumptions, or just plain weak. Given that they've been after each other, it's a bit unlikely that they're scum buds, but I wouldn't completely rule it out. Both of them are providing seemingly made-up reasons at times, so heavy distancing is a possibility.

Red Ruy should def. get a chance to prove his ability though.

Joey's been provokative and dodgy a lot of the time. Examples would be these:

I'll take as much time as I want~ ^_^!

Coming up though :3!

"Time taints reactions"

lolololol okay

Oh you're serious?

Welp. :3

I see what you're getting at. I also see why I had to re-read to get 3 other reads lolol.

He doesn't have any besides you based on all of his serious posts so far.

Is that what you were looking for? O:

You're dumb and you should burn in a fire.

It'd be youtube worthy just sayin' :3

J's throwing around stuff like " blah blah this is inherently scummy", "I don't like this", etc without backing it up, and makes fun of people questioning him. He also seems to be riding his own arrogance in an attempt to avoid having to explain himself sometimes.

I mean:

I gotta remember I am talking to WL sometimes and not Ryker. WL doesn't know me as well as Ryker does and will not get what I am trying to tell him.

Bleh.